All MJ myths busted (for reference)

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]MJ before Pippen and GRANT (who had a FAR greater IMPACT than POS Bosh did with Lebron)...a LOSER. IMMEDIATELY after getting Pippen and Grant...a winning record. AND, because of those TWO, MJ was finally able to beat the crumbling bad boys in '91. Three straight world titles in which PIPPEN and GRANT were HUGE. [B]Then, without MJ...a 55-27, and NEAR TITLE. [/B]

Then, MJ returned, but couldn't overcome the loss of ELITE PF Grant, who just killed his Bulls in the '95 ECF's. So, Jackson ADDED HOFer Rodman, and the rest was history.

Meanwhile, 19 year old Lebron joined a 17-65 Cavs team with its LAUGHABLE all-star center (who was just a joke BTW), and immediately DOUBLED their win total. A couple of years later he took that same cast of clowns to their first ever Finals. And he followed that up by single-handedly carrying them to an all-time franchise record of 66-16, and then 61-21 (with ZERO help.)

Ok, Lebron leaves for a Miami team that was first round cannon fodder before he arrived. How about his former Cavs team...all the way down to a 19-63 record. And, in his first season in Miami, they climb all the way to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals. In his four years in Miami, three of which were with a broken down Wade, and a non-factor in Bosh...FOUR straight Finals, and two world titles,...and by ALL accounts, the best player in the world.

Lebron then leaves the Heat...who immediately plunged to a 37-45 record, and with a washed up Wade, and a worthless Bosh...a losing record, and couldn't even get into the playoffs in a horribly weak conference.

Meanwhile, Lebron immediatlely improved the injury-riddled Cavs from a 33-49 record, to a 53-29 record, and yet, ANOTHER trip to the Finals. Oh, and with his second best player, JR Smith putting up a 12-4-1 .312 series, all Lebron did was single-handedly win TWO games, and nearly TWO more, against a 67-15 Warrior team that just slaughtered the NBA.

THOSE was the DIFFERENCES.[/QUOTE]

Winning a first round series = NEAR TITLE now? :roll:

A real NEAR TITLE was the '68 Lakers making it to the finals the season before Wilt joined the team. :yaohappy:

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Winning a first round series = NEAR TITLE now? :roll:

A real NEAR TITLE was the '68 Lakers making it to the finals the season before Wilt joined the team. :yaohappy:[/QUOTE]

You mean the '68 Lakers with Imhoff, Clark, and Goodrich, and their combined 42 ppg and 18 rpg, and getting routed in game six of the Finals? The same Imhoff and Clark who combined for 36 ppg, 20 rpg, and shot .510 in the first round of the '69 playoffs...and with HOFer Cunningham and his 24 ppg in that series (the same Cunningham who missed all seven games of the '68 EDF's)...all in a BLOWOUT series LOSS?



As for the '94 Bulls...they not only went 55-27 in the regular season, Pippen and Grant missed 22 games combined, or, they surely would have won 60+ games. And that would have been HUGE. Why? Because they lost a close seven game series against the 56-26 Knicks, in a series in which they went 3-0 at HOME. Then, the Knicks beat a Pacers team that the Bulls pounded 4-1 in the regular season, before taking the 58-24 Rockets to a game seven, four point loss, in a series in which they outscored Houston.

So, an emphatic YES...a NEAR title.

Interesting too, that the '95 Bulls added 20 ppg scorer and elite defender Ron Harper, to a 55-27 team (that should have won 60+ games), and with MJ playing at nearly the same post-season level that he did in '93, and considerably better than he would in '96...but, now without ELITE PF Grant...a second round 4-2 series loss (and Grant was the best player in that series BTW)...to a Magic team that would get swept by the 47-35 Rockets in the Finals.

Phil took one look at that roster, and decided...hey, we have NO chance og contending for a title. So he went out and added HOFer Rodman. Think about that...MJ basically replaced Grant from a 55 win team that should have won 60+...added Harper, and then added Rodman. No wonder they went 72-10. That team likely would have won a title without MJ.

Typical copy and paste spasm I expected. Fact is the Lakers right before Wilt got there had made it to the finals and lost to the Celtics... he gets there, they make it to the finals... and lost to the Celtics. Wilt had one of his patented finals averaging 11.7 PPG while his teammate won Finals MVP in a losing effort. :applause:

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]You mean the '68 Lakers with Imhoff, Clark, and Goodrich, and their combined 42 ppg and 18 rpg, and getting routed in game six of the Finals? The same Imhoff and Clark who combined for 36 ppg, 20 rpg, and shot .510 in the first round of the '69 playoffs...and with HOFer Cunningham and his 24 ppg in that series (the same Cunningham who missed the seven game '68 EDF's)...all in a BLOWOUT series LOSS?



As for the '94 Bulls...they not only went 55-27 in the regular season, Pippen and Grant missed 22 games combined, or, they surely would have won 60+ games. And that would have been HUGE. Why? Because they lost a close seven game series against the 56-26 Knicks, in a series in which they went 3-0 at HOME. Then, the Knicks beat a Pacers team that the Bulls pounded 4-1 in the regular season, before taking the 58-24 Rockets to a game seven, four point loss, in a series in which they outscored Houston.

So, an emphatic YES...a NEAR title.

[B]Interesting too, that the '95 Bulls added 20 ppg scorer and elite defender Ron Harper, to a 55-27 team[/B] (that should have won 60+ games), and with MJ playing at nearly the same post-season level that he did in '93, and considerably better than he would in '96...but, now without ELITE PF Grant...a second round 4-2 series loss (and Grant was the best player in that series BTW)...to a Magic team that would get swept by the 47-35 Rockets in the Finals.

Phil took one look at that roster, and decided...hey, we have NO chance og contending for a title. So he went out and added HOFer Rodman. Think about that...MJ basically replaced Grant from a 55 win team that should have won 60+...added Harper, and then added Rodman. No wonder they went 72-10. That team likely would have won a title without MJ.[/QUOTE]

Interesting that the Bulls were on pace for a 42 win season in '95 before Jordan came back (on pace for 63 wins with him). But if you think the Clippers or the Bulls had a NEAR TITLE this year too, more power to you :yaohappy:

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Typical copy and paste spasm I expected. Fact is the Lakers right before Wilt got there had made it to the finals and lost to the Celtics... he gets there, they make it to the finals... and lost to the Celtics. Wilt had one of his patented finals averaging 11.7 PPG while his teammate won Finals MVP in a losing effort. :applause:



Interesting that the Bulls were on pace for a 42 win season in '95 before Jordan came back (on pace for 63 wins with him). But if you think the Clippers or the Bulls had a NEAR TITLE this year too, more power to you :yaohappy:[/QUOTE]

You mean the '95 Bulls without BOTH MJ and GRANT?

Here is all you need to know about GRANT's impact. In the '94 season, the Bulls went 48-22 in the games in which he played.

Add THAT Grant to the 34-31 Bulls that Pippen was SINGLE-HANDEDLY carrying...and in those same 17 games, the Bulls would have gone, at worst, 12-5...or nearly what MJ added when HE came back.

BTW, Grant IMMEDIATELY improved the 50-32 Magic to a 57-25 record (and then 60-22 and was putting a 17-12 .656 post-season in '96 when he went down in game one of the ECF's.)

And again, Pippen had a WINNING record without BOTH MJ and GRANT. What was MJ's record without PIPPEN and GRANT?

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]You mean the '95 Bulls without BOTH MJ and GRANT?

Here is all you need to know about GRANT's impact. In the '94 season, the Bulls went 48-22 in the games in which he played.

Add THAT Grant to the 34-31 Bulls that Pippen was SINGLE-HANDEDLY carrying...and in those same 17 games, the Bulls would have gone, at worst, 12-5...or nearly what MJ added when HE came back.

BTW, Grant IMMEDIATELY improved the 50-32 Magic to a 57-25 record (and then 60-22 and was putting a 17-12 .656 post-season in '96 when he went down in game one of the ECF's.)[/QUOTE]

Horace Grant impact>Wilt impact :applause:

[QUOTE]And again, Pippen had a WINNING record without BOTH MJ and GRANT. What was MJ's record without PIPPEN and GRANT?[/QUOTE]

We counting the time they spent as bench scrubs and the Bulls won 50? :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Horace Grant impact>Wilt impact :applause:



We counting the time they spent as bench scrubs and the Bulls won 50? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Yeah...Grant replaced 42 ppg and 18 rpg, and took his team to a game seven two point loss in the Finals, in a game in which he watched the last five minutes from the bench.

BTW, the '69 Lakers were ONE PLAY away from winning that series, 4-1. In game four, with LA leading the series, 2-1, and leading 88-87 with only a few seconds remaining, and with the BALL...VBK put the ball in the hands of West...oh wait, Egan...who was promptly stripped, and then Sam Jones, while falling down, hit the game winner at the buzzer. Given Chamberlain's domination of Russell in a game five romp over Boston...that ONE PLAY cost the '69 Lakers a sure title.

And yes, we are counting the time in which they showed MJ how to play with teammates, and basically turned him into a winner.

[QUOTE=ralph_e_il]


[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/rW270Q6.gif[/IMG]


[B]It takes a fraction of a second to leave the paint and come back.[/B]


[/QUOTE]
[i]Again, you're forgetting that the paint is 16 x 19 feet.. So it's not just a tippy-toe in and out - it's an EIGHT FOOT distance that a weakside defender must travel from the weakside block to under the rim, so they can contest a strongside penetrator.[/i]

But today's armslength restriction PREVENTS a defender from remaining under the rim while his man is 8 feet away on the block - that's why Speights can't stay under the rim to contest Lebron above - the armslength restriction forces him to follow Tristan Thompson to the weakside block to stay within armslength.. :facepalm

Whereas in previous eras, Speights could remain under the rim "with no time restriction", anytime his man is in the paint already, or within 3 feet of either side - these conditions are met by Tristan Thompson in the GIF, and they usually are when teams don't shoot 3-pointers:

[INDENT][COLOR="Blue"]2b[/COLOR]. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area [COLOR="Blue"]with no time limitations[/COLOR]. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.[/INDENT]


[QUOTE=ralph_e_il]

[B]without 3 competant 3 shooters on the floor, today's teams could still cram the paint.
[/B]
[/QUOTE]
If teams didn't shoot 3-pointers in today's game, offensive players would occupy the paint much more often, where the defensive rules are stricter than prior eras... For today's defenders to remain in the paint, they must stay within 3 feet (armslength) of an offensive player and follow them around within the 16 x 19 foot paint.

The "armslength" defense imposed on paint defenders by today's rules is a stark contrast to previous eras, where defenders could stand anywhere in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was already in the paint or within 3 feet of either side..

Therefore, if today's teams didn't shoot 3-pointers, defenders would be more restricted than previous eras, since offensive players would be occupying the paint much more and today's rules for paint defense are MUCH more restrictive than prior eras (although today's defensive rules for [I]outside[/I] the paint allow more freedom strategically... but still not physically because of hand-check band and bans on other physicality).
.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]:roll: :roll: :roll:

Yeah...Grant replaced 42 ppg and 18 rpg, and took his team to a game seven two point loss in the Finals, in a game in which he watched the last five minutes from the bench.[/QUOTE]

I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but I'm pretty sure Horace put up more than 11.7 PPG in a final series during his time. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE][B]BTW, the '69 Lakers were ONE PLAY away from winning that series, 4-1[/B]. In game four, with LA leading the series, 2-1, and leading 88-87 with only a few seconds remaining, and with the BALL...VBK put the ball in the hands of West...oh wait, Egan...who was promptly stripped, and then Sam Jones, while falling down, hit the game winner at the buzzer. Given Chamberlain's domination of Russell in a game five romp over Boston...that ONE PLAY cost the '69 Lakers a sure title.[/QUOTE]

Probably would've been a lot less close and a Lakers' W if Wilt had put up more than 11.7 PPG in that series. :confusedshrug:

But at least it's a gret trivia question now- who is the only player in NBA History to win a finals MVP on a losing team.

Answer: Dippy's teammate Jerry West FTW. :applause:

[QUOTE]And yes, we are counting the time in which they showed MJ how to play with teammates, and basically turned him into a winner.[/QUOTE]

So the season that Jordan led the Bulls to 50 wins, won the MVP, DPOY, scoring title, steals title, even an ASG MVP... he was shown how to win by a couple of 7 PPG bench scrubs?

Wow, Horace really is the GOAT. Maybe Dippy could've won as many rings as him if he had that same magic fairy dust that turned players into winners from the bench.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but I'm pretty sure Horace put up more than 11.7 PPG in a final series during his time. :confusedshrug:



Probably would've been a lot less close and a Lakers' W if Wilt had put up more than 11.7 PPG in that series. :confusedshrug:

[B]But at least it's a gret trivia question now- who is the only player in NBA History to win a finals MVP on a losing team.

Answer: Dippy's teammate Jerry West FTW.[/B] :applause:



So the season that Jordan led the Bulls to 50 wins, won the MVP, DPOY, scoring title, steals title, even an ASG MVP... he was shown how to win by a couple of 7 PPG bench scrubs?

Wow, Horace really is the GOAT. Maybe Dippy could've won as many rings as him if he had that same magic fairy dust that turned players into winners from the bench.[/QUOTE]

Of course Wilt did even better in the '72 Finals, than West did in the '69 Finals, when he carried his team to a dominating world title (19-23-4-7 .600 FG%), as well as a FMVP...all while West was shooting .325 from the field in that Finals.

Just goes to show you what a difference a COACH makes. The idiotic VBK threw all his eggs in West's basket (well, Baylor's too), and it led to defeat. Had he put Chamberlain in command, it likely would have been a romp to a world title in '69.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Of course Wilt did even better in the '72 Finals, than West did in the '69 Finals, when he carried his team to a dominating world title (19-23-4-7 .600 FG%), as well as a FMVP...all while West was shooting .325 from the field in that Finals.

Just goes to show you what a difference a COACH makes. The idiotic VBK threw all his eggs in West's basket (well, Baylor's too), and it led to defeat. Had he put Chamberlain in command, it likely would have been a romp to a world title in '69.[/QUOTE]

Oh, so it was the coach's fault that Dippy could only muster 11.7 PPG in a tight 7 game finals series where his teammate won MVP?

Got it.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Oh, so it was the coach's fault that Dippy could only muster 11.7 PPG in a tight 7 game finals series where his teammate won MVP?

Got it.[/QUOTE]

EXACTLY. And that was why he was essentially fired immediately after the '69 Finals. Then, the Lakers brought in Joe Mullaney, whose first order of business was to have WILT become the focal point of the Laker offense. And sure enough, in the first nine games of the '70 season, it was WILT leading the league in scoring at 32.2 (on a .579 FG% to go along with 20.6 rpg)...when, in game nine, he shredded the same knee that he injured in game seven of the '69 Finals.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]EXACTLY. And that was why he was essentially fired immediately after the '69 Finals. Then, the Lakers brought in Joe Mullaney, whose first order of business was to have WILT become the focal point of the Laker offense. [/QUOTE]

And the Lakers proceeded to lose a second straight 7 game finals series, this time to the Knicks with a one-legged Willis Reed at Center (Reed having used Wilt as toilet paper when healthy in that series). :confusedshrug:

Let me guess, the new coach was also to blame.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]And the Lakers proceeded to lose a second straight 7 game finals series, this time to the Knicks with a one-legged Willis Reed at Center (Reed having used Wilt as toilet paper when healthy in that series). :confusedshrug:

Let me guess, the new coach was also to blame.[/QUOTE]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

A ONE-LEGGED Chamberlain played a HEALTHY Reed to a draw in the first four games (Reed shot .423 from the field in those two losses, and was brutalized on the glass by Chamberlain.)

And from that point on, Chamberlain was, BY FAR, the most dominant player in the series. In the last three games, he averaged 29.3 ppg, 23.6 rpg, and shot .710 from the field. All at nowhere NEAR 100%.

Had West not been abused by Frazier in game seven, who knows how that game turns out.

But go ahead...I want you to give us a GOAT-level player, who came back FOUR MONTHS from MAJOR KNEE SURGERY, and put up a 23-24 .625 FG% Finals.

You "bashers" are hilarious.

[QUOTE=3ball]No, that's EXACTLY what it is.

[I]Keeping defenders spread out is the objective of spacing so defenders are forced to help from further distances[/I].

Don't try to convince me that a team that took 5 threes per game has today's spacing - you sound like a fool.. Defenders in previous eras didn't have to help from as far away as today's teams that take 22 threes per game.. Again, it's physics and inarguable.[/QUOTE]

I think those 19 wins come from 2009 LBJ being better than 1989 MJ.

Keeping defenders moving and engaged with their man-assignment does the same thing that spacing the floor with 3 point shooters does, it keeps them honest and unable to help against the ballhandler. Just because they're closer to the paint doesn't mean they'll be able to help against the ball-handler.

and adjusting for pace, Bron's statline is just as good as MJ's.....and statlines don't matter in this case. LeBron literally made Mo Williams an all-star. He's renowned for making his teammate's better. 80's Jordan was considered a selfish chucker.


.....and you posted a .gif where David Lee was standing in the paint for 5 seconds and also would have been in violation of illegal D, and Mo Speights (who was also in the paint longer than 3 seconds) couldn't help because he had to keep TT off the boards (remember, he was killing everyone on the O-boards).

quit trying to make your point using LeBron gifs. Look at the paint during Derrick Rose's MVP season. Look at the paint last season for Westbrook. Look at the paint for John Wall the last few years. LeBron's squads for the past few years have had a ton of shooters, and double teams on Bron have to come late because of his passing ability.

:facepalm