MJ is the most double-teamed player of all time, besides Wilt

These MJ gifs are beautiful. Like poetry in motion. So quick, so fluid, so explosive with no wasted motion. GOAT gonna GOAT.

[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]

I know when I make statistical assertions like OP did I back it up with more than anecdotal video that includes 9 min out of MJs 48,485 min played.

[/QUOTE]
The 9 minutes is just one example... When he scored 61 against the Hawks and 53 against Indiana in 1987, he eluded double teams for most of his points.. I'll post stretches from those games where he was doubled teamed every time he caught the ball.

This type of every-possession double-teaming is something you can't show me for any other player - the best anyone's been able to do is post a 4 minute stretch where Shaq was doubled 4 times, and not every time he caught the ball... Only MJ faced this type of every-possession double-team.

There is absolutely no doubt MJ had the most attention of any perimeter player in history and it's not even close. Bigs? That's another story. But perimeter? Not even close.

The "Jordan Rules" saids it all. One of the best teams ever were so worried about #23, they said, "Fu*k it, we'll let everyone else get theirs but we have to stop #23 at all costs." They threw 2-3 guys at him constantly. It's simply a fact. He was THAT dangerous and THAT scary to the opposition.

[quote=3ball]The first GIF above is a catch-and-go drive and not an isolation, but you categorized this type of shot as an isolation - that's inaccurate - catch-and-go where MJ doesn't hold the ball even for a second and the defender isn't set set are not isolations.

In the 2nd and 3rd GIF's, MJ is double-teamed, but you called them isolations as well - again, that's inaccurate.[/quote]

2nd gif looks like him coming off a screen play (this time as the screener) and faking the defense closing out to drive to the hoop. Nowhere near an isolation.

1st and 3rd gifs do not show his activity beforehand to get himself in a position to receive the ball. I would need to see that before placing them in a category. I did not just count every drive as an isolation like you are suggesting.

Michael Jordan and Steph Curry are the two most doubled perimeter players of all time

[QUOTE=PHILA]

I did not just count every drive as an isolation like you are suggesting.

[/QUOTE]

[B]You count every MJ double-team as an isolation, like these:[/B]


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/biPAFm.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-11-2015/cyFnUr.gif[/IMG]



[B]You count every catch-and-go as a isolation, like these:
[/B]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-24-2015/Jewc60.gif[/IMG]


The bottom line is that you categorized catch-and-go drives and double teams as isolations.. That makes your estimate of MJ's isolation proportion (which was about 40-45% or something based on your numbers) materially overstated.

[quote=3ball][B]You count every MJ double-team as an isolation, like these:[/B]


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/biPAFm.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-11-2015/cyFnUr.gif[/IMG]



[B]You count every catch-and-go as a isolation, like these:
[/B]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-24-2015/Jewc60.gif[/IMG]


The bottom line is that you categorized catch-and-go drives and double teams as isolations.. That makes your estimate of MJ's isolation proportion (which was about 40-45% or something based on your numbers) materially overstated.[/quote]

I did not count every [I]"catch-and-go"[/I] drive as an isolation (most of these were off screens), nor did I count every double team as an isolation, as he was also doubled a lot in the post & out of the pick and roll. That first gif vs. Orlando is clearly an isolation. The 2nd gif vs the Spurs looks more like a post up play where he drives out of the post. I agree the isolation is a bit overstated, for those plays I would look at the tendencies post to get a more accurate picture.

[QUOTE=PHILA]I did not count every [I]"catch-and-go"[/I] drive as an isolation (most of these were off screens), nor did I count every double team as an isolation, as he was also doubled a lot in the post & out of the pick and roll. That first gif vs. Orlando is clearly an isolation. The 2nd gif vs the Spurs looks more like a post up play where he drives out of the post. I agree the isolation is a bit overstated, for those plays I would look at the tendencies post to get a more accurate picture.[/QUOTE]

Hi.

I really, REALLY respect your work.

that being said, are their any other players you are making "shot charts" for right now?

[QUOTE=PHILA]I did not count every [I]"catch-and-go"[/I] drive as an isolation (most of these were off screens), nor did I count every double team as an isolation, as he was also doubled a lot in the post & out of the pick and roll. That first gif vs. Orlando is clearly an isolation. The 2nd gif vs the Spurs looks more like a post up play where he drives out of the post. I agree the isolation is a bit overstated, for those plays I would look at the tendencies post to get a more accurate picture.[/QUOTE]

I havent read much of your debate.

but to be honest, I find his isolation ppp much more impressive than the idea of him being double teamed alot.

[quote=DavisIsMyUniBro]Hi.

I really, REALLY respect your work.

that being said, are their any other players you are making "shot charts" for right now?[/quote]

Larry Bird 84-88 playoffs. Still missing some games though.

[QUOTE=PHILA]

I did not count every [I]"catch-and-go"[/I] drive as an isolation (most of these were off screens)

[/QUOTE]
What about the catch-and-go's that WEREN'T off-screens?... [COLOR="Navy"]There's no category for thi[/COLOR]s.. You categorized them as isolations, which is inaccurate and results in an overstatement of the proportion of isolations..

Don't get me wrong - I understand that MJ was more skilled at isolating defenders because he could isolate players QUICKLY in spots where most players cannot, but 45% isolation rate is ridiculously high... Should be somewhere in the 30's.


[QUOTE=PHILA]

That first gif vs. Orlando is clearly an isolation.

[/QUOTE]

How can it be an isolation if he's getting double-teamed?.. Makes no sense.. Same thing with these GIFs - these aren't isolations either, [I]but there's no category for them in your data[/I]:


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/ZGUxyC.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-30-2015/fOCP0H.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/QmCJlv.gif[/IMG]


[B]Again, there's no category for these kinds of double-teams, which means you must've counted these as isolations[/B]... This is why MJ's isolation proportion is overstated in your data... But the tendencies post helps a ton, true.
.

[quote=DavisIsMyUniBro]I havent read much of your debate.

but to be honest, I find his isolation ppp much more impressive than the idea of him being double teamed alot.[/quote]

Yes even if he was isolating at that volume, he was still unbelievably efficient. Most players couldn't maintain that efficiency at a lower volume. I may consider Jordan again only looking at playoff games to get a more accurate picture, at least I can fast forward though it this time if I don't keep track of that possession team data.

There are only two games I am missing for Jordan at his playoff peak (1990-93) right now:

1990 vs. Bucks Game 3 (1st Half missing)

1993 vs. Cavaliers (Games 2 & 4 Missing)

[QUOTE=PHILA]Larry Bird 84-88 playoffs. Still missing some games though.[/QUOTE]

Do you have any future plans.

I dont want to sound overbearing, and these are requests, but what do you think of Robinson, defensively.

I think he overachieved with his rosters the most, other than Lebron.


Also, how much would you estimate Jordan scored in regular, non-catch and go iso situations?
I recall that he had an abnormally high iso success rate in your study, at first, I though it was just because he was goat and all of that, but looking at footage, his catch and go drives (those are correctly categorized I think) probably skewed it a bit. I mean,

ACTUALLY, I have an idea.

where you do get the footage of those games?

Just wondering, if its to much to ask, could you send it to a site such as synergy or JE? they do great things there. One thing I would like to see is RAPM numbers. I mean, looking at your Jordan study, you definately have enough data for him. (generally, 100 ish games is a decent sample).

Also, what about Wilt and Russell? how much footage do you have of them?

Sorry if this sounds overbearing, but the guys at realgm would salivate over some RAPM data for peak Jordan.

It would also be interesting to look at some Russell and Wilt games, from an on-off point of view (though, considering their minutes, it would be funny if they went on a 1 minute run and the on-off rating was something ridiculous like -100)

I mean, alot of people talk about Russell's HOF teammates (which they were, not taking anything away from them) but if Im not mistaken, while Russell was injured, discounting his rookie year, I recall they went 10-18 without him, with a srs rating of -2.02 (granted, srs and point differential were horribly skewed, due to the pace of the game causing many blowouts, one way or another)

Shaq, Kobe, Durant, and Curry

[QUOTE=DavisIsMyUniBro]


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif[/IMG]


I find MJ's isolation ppp much more impressive than the idea of him being double teamed alot.


[/QUOTE]
PHILA's data shows that MJ had a 1.23 PPP on isolations (which includes some double-teams that shouldn't be included, so the number is actually higher).

MJ's 1.23 PPP on isolations is a stark contrast from Lebron's 0.93 and 0.70 PPP in regular season and playoffs, respectively, which ranked him 114th out of 315 in RS, and 35th out of 39 in playoffs.

That's how we know MJ could've won the 2015 Finals... He would've shot well over 50% in Lebron's shoes, given all the secluded isolations Lebron enjoyed where he was all alone on the strongside and faced an open paint - MJ never got isolations like that (seen above) where he had the entire strongside to himself AND and open paint - but Lebron enjoyed those kind of iso's for the entire series.