Jordan's help. Wow.

[QUOTE=sundizz]1. Scottie Pippen
The 2nd best perimeter player of the 90's. Arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.

2. Dennis Rodman
The best rebounder of all time and one of the mos versatile defenders of all time. He put up seasons of 14.9 rpg, 16.1 rpg, and 15.0 rpg in his seasons with the Bulls.

3. Horace Grant
Played with the Bulls for 7 seasons until 93-94. The epitome of a perfect role player. Was a consistent player with a deady midrange jumper and outstanding defense. Peaked in his final Chicago season with outstanding averages of 15.1 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.2 bpg on 52%.

4. Toni Kukoc
Came in right after Horace left. Played with the Bulls from 93-94 up through Jordan's retirement. A lefty, solid playmaker, and smooth handles. What else would you expect out of another of Jordan's superstar teammates? Came over already established and in his prime at the age of 25. In his 2nd season with the Bulls he put up a cool 15.7 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg on 50%.

5. Charles Oakley
He played with Jordan before he learned how to collect and utilize talent amazingly (while berating it needlessly). They had a stint together in the 87-88 season where the Oak Tree dropped a more than respectable 12.4 ppg, 13.0 rpg, and 3.0 dimes. All while being a tree.

6. BJ Armstrong
A steadfast point guard that was reliable. Beyond reliable in reality - a great running mate. Stuck it out on the Bulls from 89-95. Learned the game (while being a great bench player) his first three years with good numbers. Peaked at the right time as a starter in the 93-94 season with a solid and efficient scoring line of 14.8 ppg, 3.9 apg on 48%, 44%, 86%

7. Ron Harper
Was a stat stuffer. Came to the Bulls to become a winner and increase their already league leading talent pool. What'd he drop the year before he joined the Bulls? An inspired 20.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.9 spg performance with some high level defense.

And a bunch of white guys that spread the floor as knock down shooters.

Has there ever been such a loaded roster as the ones Jordan enjoyed? I used to think Kobe or Bron had help but remembering history has shown that even the collusion titles of Bran pale in comparison to the talent dump the Bulls were. It's no surprise that they were still title contenders without him. Did he come back because his legacy would of been hurt by them winning a chip without him, or because he truly wanted the challenge of playing with an unfairly stacked team to win chips against significantly inferior opposition?[/QUOTE]
You forgot GOAT coach Phil Jackson.

[QUOTE=Wade's Rings]:roll:



The Bulls had won 2 straight Finals and had made 2 straight ECF trips in '89 and '90. They coasted a bit more in the Regular Season and won 57 Games. Plus in '94 they added Kukoc and Kerr.

Also, if Kukoc misses the Game-Winner in Game 3 then the Bulls more then likely get swept or finished off in 5. If that misses they may not have even been in position to "get screwed".



So why did he put up 35/7/7 on 52% shooting in the 80s Playoffs before Phil and the "GOAT system"?[/QUOTE]
Your obsession with Lebron is scary. His help was abysmal, get over it.
Wade couldn't even get outbid the 1st round when he had bad help.:oldlol:

The Bulls also lost players. I don't care for your stupid hypothetical. Point is the Bulls were one screw job from the ECF and only won 2 less games without the GOAT.

You're reading comprehension is low. I didn't say anything about stats. I said his IMPACT was overrated. That is shown by 1-9 before the GOAT coach and stacked team.

[QUOTE=3ball]Lebron wasn't the only guy that left - 5 other guys also left, including 3 starters: Mo Williams (injury), Varajao (injury), Delonte, Shaq and Zydrunas also left.

Otoh, the Bulls only lost Jordan in 1994 - and their ORtg fell from the 113-115 range during 1991-1993 (#1 all-time), to 106.1 in 1994 (14th in league).

And keep in mind that Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs teams had HORRIFIC chemistry, which resulted in being upset by a lower seed in the playoffs each year.. [I][COLOR="Navy"]So Lebron's departure not only removed his talent, but left the team mired in horrific playing style and chemistry[/COLOR][/I].

Otoh, when Jordan left the Bulls, he left the team with THREE-PEAT, GOAT chemistry... New fans simply can't process the concept of chemistry... It isn't tangible enough for them - however, chemistry is THE reason more talented teams get upset by less talented teams, which never happened to MJ (but happened to Lebron a lot).[/QUOTE]
You mentioning 37 yo Shaq and 35 yo Big Z whom average 5 PPG the next year and both retired after that next year shows how shook you are.

The Heat also had a drop in PPG and ORTG after Lebron left and it has never been as high since, what your excuse for that.

Chemistry doesn't get you 2 less win after losing the GOAT, Talent and a great coach does.

.
[COLOR="White"]...............[/COLOR][B][COLOR="darkRed"]Jordan's jumpshot was better than Curry's from inside 20 feet:[/COLOR][/B]



[B][COLOR="White"].....................[/COLOR][url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]MJ 1997[/url][COLOR="White"]...................[/COLOR][url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]Curry 2015[/Url][/B][COLOR="White"]............ [/COLOR][b][url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/]Curry 2016[/url][/B] [size="1"][B][COLOR="DarkGreen"][I]<---- links to nba.com data[/I][/COLOR][/B][/size]

[B]5-9 ft[/B].......... 49.2%, 126 fga........... 40.3%, 72 fga.......... 47.2%, 53 fga

[B]10-14 ft[/B]....... 51.5%, 466 fga........... 52.9%, 85 fga.......... 54.8%, 42 fga

[B]15-19 ft[/B]....... 49.5%, 594 fga........... 43.9%, 132 fga........ 39.7%, 78 fga



[b]Overall midrange % (all shots inside the 3-point line but outside the paint)[/b]

JORDAN 1997: 49.3%, 1202 fga
CURRY[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 2015: 41.1%, 285 fga
CURRY[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 2016: 45.1%, 82 fga
LEBRON 2015: 37.0%, 343 fga
LEBRON 2016: 31.9%, 119 fga


[I][COLOR="navy"]Anyone who disagrees that MJ is a better shooter than Curry inside 20 feet must explain why Curry shoots far worse percentage inside 20 feet on one-fifth the volume.. [/COLOR][/I]
.

[QUOTE=Bankaii]

You mentioning 37 yo Shaq and 35 yo Big Z whom average 5 PPG the next year and both retired after that next year shows how shook you are.

[/quote]
I mentioned Mo Williams, Varejao and Delonte too, since they ALSO left the Cavs in 2011 - but you ignore these major pieces because you're biased and in the tank for Lebeta.

Also, Shaq was a major piece - he averaged 12/7 with 1.5 blocks for the Cavs in 2010.. That's way better than Cartwright.


[quote=Bankaii]

Chemistry doesn't get you 2 less win after losing the GOAT, Talent and a great coach does.

[/QUOTE]
[I]Every championship Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer the game's ever seen.. So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had a bunch of talented scorers, it was due to the 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and mental ability accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.[/I]

Also, you probably think the Bulls could've won 55 games and made the 2nd Round in ANY season without MJ, not just 1994, right?... For example, the Bulls could've won 55 games without MJ in 1991 right?

Obviously not, which means the journey was an accumulative one - the acquisition of 3-peat-caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.


[QUOTE=Bankaii]

The Heat also had a drop in PPG and ORTG after Lebron left and it has never been as high since, what your excuse for that.

[/QUOTE]
I don't need an excuse for that one - the Heat's drop-off offensively wasn't near as much as the Bulls dropped off without Jordan.


[quote=Bankaii]

Chemistry doesn't get you 2nd Round after losing the GOAT, Talent and a great coach does.

[/QUOTE]
The Bulls 3-peated with Jordan... When he left, they were a 2nd Round team.

Are you ****ing retarded or do you understand how big of a gap that is?

Do you know how many ordinary, pedestrian teams make the 2nd Round??.. It's not an accomplishment..

3-peat, goat chemistry gets you to the 2nd Round with marginal talent - and that's exactly what happened.
.

[QUOTE=3ball]I mentioned Mo Williams, Varejao and Delonte too, since they ALSO left the Cavs in 2011 - but you ignore these major pieces because you're biased and in the tank for Lebeta.

Also, Shaq was a major piece - he averaged 12/7 with 1.5 blocks for the Cavs in 2010.. That's way better than Cartwright.[/QUOTE]
Andy was averaging 9 points in 2010, and 9 in 2011 before he got hurt.
Mo was averaging 16 points in 2010, and 13 in 2011 before he got hurt.
Delonte was averaging 9 points in 2010.

Outside of Mo you're seriously nitpicking role player numbers? You also are significantly excluding the addition of Baron Davis and Ramon Sessions, both double digit scorers, along with increased production of Boobie Gibson, Jamison, and Hickson to cover these players.

Nonetheless, losing role players and injuries in the middle of the season shouldn't account from them becoming the 2nd last offensive team in the league.

Even after additions of Kyrie, Waiters, TT, etc the team was never even at league average. But you slurp Jordan so hard you would never admit Lebron had a all time great impact.

[QUOTE=3ball][I]Every championship Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer the game's ever seen.. So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had a bunch of talented scorers, it was due to the 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and mental ability accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.[/I]

Also, you probably think the Bulls could've won 55 games and made the 2nd Round in ANY season without MJ, not just 1994, right?... For example, the Bulls could've won 55 games without MJ in 1991 right?

Obviously not, which means the journey was an accumulative one - the acquisition of 3-peat-caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.[/QUOTE]
Nothing you say is a fact 3ball, is always 90% conjecture. MJ scored a lot because he shot a lot. That's it. When he left the system allowed talented players to increase production and still be a solid team.

And I never said that quit making shit up. The 1991 Bulls weren't as experienced, which plays just as much of a role as chemistry.

They made the 2nd round and 55 wins because they were talented within a GOAT system, get over it.


[QUOTE=3ball]I don't need an excuse for that one - the Heat's drop-off offensively wasn't near as much as the Bulls dropped off without Jordan.[/QUOTE]
The Heat went from 5th in the league to 21st you idiot, that's definitely worse than the Bulls going from 2nd to 14th. Can you count?



[QUOTE=3ball]The Bulls 3-peated with Jordan... When he left, they were a 2nd Round team.

Are you ****ing retarded or do you understand how big of a gap that is?

Do you know how many ordinary, pedestrian teams make the 2nd Round??.. It's not an accomplishment..

3-peat, goat chemistry gets you to the 2nd Round with marginal talent - and that's exactly what happened.
.[/QUOTE]
The Heat went to every Finals and won back to back title when Lebron was there. After he left they missed the playoffs and the 5th seed right now.

Why could the Bulls remain a top 4 team while the Heat struggle to be top 10. Was Lebrons help that bad or Jordan's help that good, 3Bitch?

The 1994 Bullz came within literally a hair of beating the Knick's in the 2nd round.

Had they advanced they would have faced Indiana in the CFinal's who [B]they beat in 4/5 reg-season meetings[/B].

So... very, very good chance they would have made the Final's that year had they gotten by NYK.

Then in the Final's they would have faced a Rocket team they beat in 1/2 reg-season meetings.
Pippen didn't play in the one loss and they still almost won.

Maybe they don't beat Hakeem but making the Finals was clearly a strong possibility for that team and shows they were a legit contender.

[QUOTE=Bankaii]Andy was averaging 9 points in 2010, and 9 in 2011 before he got hurt.
Mo was averaging 16 points in 2010, and 13 in 2011 before he got hurt.
Delonte was averaging 9 points in 2010.

Outside of Mo you're seriously nitpicking role player numbers? You also are significantly excluding the addition of Baron Davis and Ramon Sessions, both double digit scorers, along with increased production of Boobie Gibson, Jamison, and Hickson to cover these players.

Nonetheless, losing role players and injuries in the middle of the season shouldn't account from them becoming the 2nd last offensive team in the league.

Even after additions of Kyrie, Waiters, TT, etc the team was never even at league average. But you slurp Jordan so hard you would never admit Lebron had a all time great impact.


Nothing you say is a fact 3ball, is always 90% conjecture. MJ scored a lot because he shot a lot. That's it. When he left the system allowed talented players to increase production and still be a solid team.

And I never said that quit making shit up. The 1991 Bulls weren't as experienced, which plays just as much of a role as chemistry.

They made the 2nd round and 55 wins because they were talented within a GOAT system, get over it.



The Heat went from 5th in the league to 21st you idiot, that's definitely worse than the Bulls going from 2nd to 14th. Can you count?




The Heat went to every Finals and won back to back title when Lebron was there. After he left they missed the playoffs and the 5th seed right now.

Why could the Bulls remain a top 4 team while the Heat struggle to be top 10. Was Lebrons help that bad or Jordan's help that good, 3Bitch?[/QUOTE]
3ball got his ass handed to him with this one

[QUOTE=Bankaii]Your obsession with Lebron is scary. His help was abysmal, get over it.
Wade couldn't even get outbid the 1st round when he had bad help.:oldlol:[/QUOTE]

For sure obsessed with Bron. All my threads are dedicated to him and a good amount of my posts, excellent deduction :applause:

No his help wasn't. From '06-'10 he had a great defense and good rebounding team. They were competitive even when Lebron wasn't playing great in Playoff Series.

[QUOTE]The Bulls also lost players. I don't care for your stupid hypothetical. Point is the Bulls were one screw job from the ECF and only won 2 less games without the GOAT.[/QUOTE]

What players outside of Jordan?

Your whole last sentence lacks context which I posted about earlier. I should've expected you to just deflect though, what else is new?

[QUOTE]You're reading comprehension is low. I didn't say anything about stats. I said his IMPACT was overrated. That is shown by 1-9 before the GOAT coach and stacked team.[/QUOTE]

Your post said his scoring was impressive because he had offensive freedom in the GOAT system. I responded showing his Playoff numbers before Phil & the GOAT system and asked why did he put those numbers if the GOAT system made his scoring impressive? You don't even know what the f*ck your posting, don't talk about my reading comprehension you moron.

[QUOTE=3ball]Harper was garbage... the same way mitch richmond was for the lakers... it happens to guys.. they get old.[/QUOTE]

He came off a 20/6/5 season prior to joining the Bulls...

All that changed on the Bulls was that he was used as one of the primary defenders.

Jordan literally had the ability to sit and rest on the worst opposing player on defense, so he could just have all his energy for offense.

[QUOTE=3ball]
Are you ****ing retarded
.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]https://i.ytimg.com/vi/dklv2XToGx0/hqdefault.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Bankaii]

Nonetheless, losing role players and injuries in the middle of the season shouldn't account from [B]the 2011 Cavs becoming the 2nd last offensive team in the league.[/B]

[/quote]
The 2011 Cavs lost literally half their team - they lost 4 starters (Mo Williams, Shaq, Lebron, Antawn Jamison), plus various other 25+ mpg players (Delonte, Varejao, Zydrunas) - this would cause any team's ORtg to be horrible.

This isn't remarkable at all - it's standard... When a team loses 4 starters AND 3 other role players - literally half their team - they will fall to the bottom.. So there's no need to be amazed bud.


[QUOTE=Bankaii]

MJ scored a lot because he shot a lot.

[/quote]
This is easily disproven by simple stats - Jordan was more efficient than Lebron, Kobe, and Wade in FG%, TS%, and ORtg - that's all the efficiency measures.

If Lebron or Kobe could shoot a higher volume at the same efficiency - they would... But they can't - only Jordan is capable of maintaining the same efficiency at higher volume:


[SIZE="1"][U]Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:[/U]

JORDAN:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. [COLOR="green"]32.5 fga.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg[/COLOR]
LEBRON:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. [COLOR="Navy"]26.8 fga.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg[/COLOR]
KOBE:[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. [COLOR="Navy"]27.7 fga.. 44.8 fg.. 54.1 ts.. 110 ORtg[/COLOR]
WADE:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. [COLOR="Navy"]24.5 fga.. 47.8 fg.. 55.4 ts.. 108 ORtg[/COLOR][/size]


[QUOTE=Bankaii]

When MJ left the system, it allowed players to [B][COLOR="Red"]increase production[/COLOR][/B] and still be a solid team.

[/QUOTE]
Again, this is easily disproven by stats.. When Jordan left in 1994, Pippen's stats didn't improve from his highs alongside Jordan:

[I]Pippen 1992[/I]: 21.0 ppg.. 7.7 rpg.. [COLOR="Navy"][I]7.0 apg[/I][/COLOR].. 50.6 fg
[I]Pippen 1994[/I]: 22.0 ppg.. 8.7 rpg.. [I][COLOR="Navy"]5.6 apg[/COLOR][/I].. 49.1 fg

Grant's stats barely changed too - he averaged 14/10 in 1992, compared to 15/11 in 1994..

So your dead wrong that when MJ left, everyone's stats went up - that's complete bullshit.. Instead, it's a testament to MJ's superior, off-ball style that Grant and Pippen could play to full capacity alongside Jordan.


[QUOTE=Bankaii]

The 1991 Bulls weren't as experienced, which plays just as much of a role as chemistry.

[/QUOTE]
You must be a teenager to say something so stupid - experience is part of chemistry.

And since you agree that the 1991 Bulls couldn't have won 55 without MJ, you concede the journey was [I]accumulative[/i] - the gradual acquisition of 3-peat-caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994..

MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.


[QUOTE=Bankaii]

They made the 2nd round and 55 wins [B][COLOR="Red"]because they were talented[/COLOR][/B] within a GOAT system, get over it.

[/QUOTE]
We know for a fact that the Bulls supporting cast wasn't talented because they needed MJ to score a higher proportion of his team's points than any player ever, while also assisting on the highest proportion of teammate field goals (team leader in assist % every year) and playing goat-level defense.

MJ's goat scoring load included 50% of the Bulls' 4th quarter points in the 1997 and 1998 playoffs (during the time he was on the floor).. Compare that to Lebron's 14% to 35% of his team's 4th quarter points - these are [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=392376]well-documented statistical facts[/url] that show Lebron is nowhere near carrying the load MJ did.


[QUOTE=Bankaii]

The Heat went from 5th in the league to 21st you idiot, that's definitely worse than the Bulls going from 2nd to 14th. Can you count?

[/QUOTE]
Wade and Bosh were hurt half the year.. It's amazing that you could overlook this.

Apparently, you'll say ANYTHING and overlook the obvious points that refute what you want to believe.. i.e. Wade/Bosh injuries.. Jordan's superior efficiency.. Pippen/Grant's unchanged stats when Jordan left..

I mean, it's remarkable how wrong you are on virtually everything.. and it's due to your blind bias and penchant for liking Lebron's rigid, bumbling, unskilled game (at least compared to MJ)


[quote=Bankaii]

Why could the Bulls remain a top 4 team while the Heat struggle to be top 10. Was Lebrons help that bad or Jordan's help that good, 3Bitch?

[/QUOTE]
The 2014 Heat were a FAR worse team than the 1993 Bulls, as the 2014 Finals demonstrated.

The 54-win Heat would've BARELY made the playoffs in the West, and accordingly, were beat worse than any team ever in the Finals.. The Heat were a 1st or 2nd Round team out West (and I'm being generous), that fell to a lottery team.

So don't confuse the 2014 Heat going from 1st Round Western Conference equivalency to lottery in 2015, with the 1993 Bulls - the 1993 Bulls three-peated and would've beaten the 2014 Spurs, but fell all the way to the 2nd Round in 1994.. Can you see the difference?

3ball is the biggest bitch made trash I've seen on this forum, and that's including guys like Clippersfan that stroked it to Blake and Bledsoe on the daily. Jabbar start that ban thread again.

Lol 3ball making morons look stupid as always. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=3ball]fixed[/QUOTE]
They also passed the first round because the team they face was injured