Mel Counts > Wilt Chamberlain in 69 Finals .
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Mel Counts > Wilt Chamberlain in 69 Finals .
[QUOTE=feyki]Mel Counts > Wilt Chamberlain in 69 Finals .[/QUOTE]
Clearly better than Russell then.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Clearly better than Russell then.[/QUOTE]
Both , Counts and Chamberlain was just shot blocker and finisher at the rim as typical centers .
Russell was floor general of Celtics , on both ; offensively and defensiely . He was versatile defender rather than Wilt , who did try make pressure on every player of opponent team . On ball defence , help defence , transition defence .. And he did setup Celtics' offence with his amazing playmaking ability . He dominated the Game 7 with Hondo . And Wilt lost with 40-10-10 + Jerry West . And Mel Counts came to save them from 103-94 to 103-102 in only two minutes when Wilt get injured . Their coach said "we're doing fine without you " and sit him down for the last two minutes . I wonder what would be more shameful than that .
So , Mel Counts > Wilt Chamberlain .
And Bill Russell . Not a best player of that finals . But he was clearly the third best behind of West and Havlicek , as who were heros of finals .
[QUOTE=Mr Feeny]Ilt is well and truly pathetic. Can't even outscore Pippen in the finals !:lol[/QUOTE]
Correct me if im wrong pippen only went to 6 finals and played behind jordan while wilt was 1st option for 7 finals??
[QUOTE=feyki]Both , Counts and Chamberlain was just shot blocker and finisher at the rim as typical centers .
Russell was floor general of Celtics , on both ; offensively and defensiely . He was versatile defender rather than Wilt , who did try make pressure on every player of opponent team . On ball defence , help defence , transition defence .. And he did setup Celtics' offence with his amazing playmaking ability . He dominated the Game 7 with Hondo . And Wilt lost with 40-10-10 + Jerry West . And Mel Counts came to save them from 103-94 to 103-102 in only two minutes when Wilt get injured . Their coach said "we're doing fine without you " and sit him down for the last two minutes . I wonder what would be more shameful than that .
So , Mel Counts > Wilt Chamberlain .
And Bill Russell . Not a best player of that finals . But he was clearly the third best behind of West and Havlicek , as who were heros of finals .[/QUOTE]
Russell "dominated" to the tune of "holding" Wilt to 7/8 FG, 27 rebounds, 10 blocked shots in 41 minutes, then to Mel Counts coming in to supposedly ">" 18/27/10 Wilt? Nice domination there, buddy...
And, yes, the Lakers were doing fine without Wilt, because they had already been on a roll in those last minutes, [B]with [/B]Wilt, so, him going out for a few minutes wasn't [B]initially [/B]enough to offset Wilt's absence. Yet, in the end, despite having cut the margin to 1 point and "playing better without Wilt", they still couldn't get the job done. Because the Lakers in the long run were [B]not [/B]better without Wilt. If you gave them an extra quarter to play and kept Wilt on the bench, the Celtics would probably re-grow the margin and comfortably win.
[QUOTE=feyki]Both , Counts and Chamberlain was just shot blocker and finisher at the rim as typical centers .
Russell was floor general of Celtics , on both ; offensively and defensiely . He was versatile defender rather than Wilt , who did try make pressure on every player of opponent team . On ball defence , help defence , transition defence .. And he did setup Celtics' offence with his amazing playmaking ability . [B]He dominated the Game 7 with Hondo[/B] . And Wilt lost with 40-10-10 + Jerry West . And Mel Counts came to save them from 103-94 to 103-102 in only two minutes when Wilt get injured . Their coach said "we're doing fine without you " and sit him down for the last two minutes . I wonder what would be more shameful than that .
So , Mel Counts > Wilt Chamberlain .
And Bill Russell . Not a best player of that finals . But he was clearly the third best behind of West and Havlicek , as who were heros of finals .[/QUOTE]
Russell the hero of game seven??? :roll: :roll: :roll:
Chamberlain kicked his ass all over the floor.
I knew that Wilt absolutely dominated him in that game seven, but Julizaver added more fuel to the argument this morning. Chamberlain not only poured in 18 points on 7-8 from the floor (and an overall .621 TS%), but he also blocked TEN shots.
Furthermore the 4th quarter of game seven is on YouTube. But, alas, you won't find much of Russell in that footage. He went into HIDING early in the period after he picked up his 5th personal foul. BTW, Wilt had picked up his 5th with a couple of minutes left in the third quarter, and yet continued to dominate the glass and defensively.
Immediately after Russell picked up his 5th, the Lakers went right into Wilt, who went right around the "matador" defense of Russell for an easy layin. However, the idiotic Laker coach, "the Butcher" never called Wilt's number again.
As for the last few minutes...
you failed to mention that from the 10 minute mark, until a little less than the six minute mark, the Lakers knocked TEN points off of a 17 point deficit. That's when Wilt came up lame (BTW, the same leg that he would shred early the very next season.) So, in a span of a little over four minutes, they wiped out 10 points, and then in the last five+ minutes, and with Wilt anchored to the bench by "the Butcher", they could only cut five more points off the margin.
BTW, regarding Wilt's injury (which even the Butcher acknowledged), he had as many rebounds, with the injury...two, in a span of two straight possessions, as Russell did the entire quarter. Overall, and in five minutes less, Wilt outrebounded Russell in the 4th quarter by a 7-2 margin.
As for your boy Counts...he shot 4-13 from the floor in that last game...including a miss at the minute mark, and then a key turnover with less than a minute remaining.
TS%'s in that game seven...
West... .542
Baylor... .408
Counts... .321
Russell... .333
Wilt... .621.
Incidently, here was the idiotic Van Breda Kolff's offensive philosophy...
[url]https://books.google.com/books?id=9BaqPfGcI84C&pg=PA355&lpg=PA355&dq=butch+van+breda+kolff+had+chamberlain+playing+the+high+post&source=bl&ots=rQxpX4Ys7l&sig=oosFtJ3aB-NUrdTlS-5xi8-eHyI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi70fWD0svKAhVDuYMKHSvWDRgQ6AEIQTAJ#v=onepage&q=butch%20van%20breda%20kolff%20had%20chamberlain%20playing%20the%20high%20post&f=false[/url]
"When we pass the ball into Wilt, he will score. But it is an ugly offense to watch."
So, he had the greatest low post player in NBA history, playing the high post...so that Baylor could freely roam the baselines, and shoot .385 from the field...which was the worst by any Laker in the post-season. Oh, and in three of the losses... 4-18, 2-14, and a game seven of 8-22.
Next...
They went much better w/out Wilt and these fan boys keep excusing :oldlol: .
Pathetic ..
[QUOTE=feyki]Both , Counts and Chamberlain was just shot blocker and finisher at the rim as typical centers .
Russell was floor general of Celtics , on both ; offensively and defensiely . He was versatile defender rather than Wilt , who did try make pressure on every player of opponent team . On ball defence , help defence , transition defence .. And he did setup Celtics' offence with his amazing playmaking ability . He dominated the Game 7 with Hondo . And Wilt lost with 40-10-10 + Jerry West . And Mel Counts came to save them from 103-94 to 103-102 in only two minutes when Wilt get injured . Their coach said "we're doing fine without you " and sit him down for the last two minutes . I wonder what would be more shameful than that .
So , Mel Counts > Wilt Chamberlain .
And Bill Russell . Not a best player of that finals . But he was clearly the third best behind of West and Havlicek , as who were heros of finals .[/QUOTE]
Jerry West himself would scold you for trying to diminish the story of Wilt and Bredakoffs feud and place this false idea that Chamberlain was outplayed by Counts. The ego and bitterness of a coach that hated Wilt and WANTED to win without him desperately enough to keep him sat is believed by the overwhelming majority of teammates and fans and even the owner of the team to have COST them the game and championship - as such that coach was no longer the Lakers coach, and Chamberlain stayed with the team. Taking them to 3 more Finals trips, and winning a FMVP and a title for the Lakers. Wilt did that, not the coach so don't get it twisted. Chamberlain of course gets half the blame for feuding with the coach in the first place as it was a clash of two men with an ego and different philosophies of how to best be used on the team - but as far as his on court performance? Your version of the story is nonsense. Shameful to try and diminish it and suggest the game was played better without him. Counts hit a few shots in that last 2 minutes, but he had nowhere near the overall presence of Chamberlain, and shots like the one Don Nelson made are EXACTLY the kind of shots a player like Chamberlain (and not a player like Counts) will deter or reject.
[QUOTE=feyki]They went much better w/out Wilt and these fan boys keep excusing :oldlol: .
Pathetic ..[/QUOTE]
Unlike the fading Russell, Chamberlain was a FORCE in that game seven. And your boy Counts flat-out choked in the last minute.
BTW, when West found out that the Butcher had kept Wilt on the bench in the last five minutes, he was furious. VBK knew he was about to be fired, and promptly quit.
As Robert Cherry wrote...
Van Breda Kolff's hatred for Wilt cost the city of Los Angeles their first ever title, and basically cost VBK his coaching career.
Of course, WILT would lead the Lakers to a title a couple of years later.
Revised...
[QUOTE][B]1. 3/22/62: [COLOR="DarkRed"]56[/COLOR] points, 35 rebounds, 11 blocks[/B]
[B]2. 4/16/64: [COLOR="DarkRed"]39[/COLOR] points, 30 rebounds, 12 blocks[/B]
[B]3. 3/26/65: [COLOR="DarkRed"]30[/COLOR] pts, 15 rebs, 10 asts[/B]
[B]4. 3/31/65: [COLOR="DarkRed"]38[/COLOR] pts, 26 rebs, 10 blks[/B]
[B]5. 4/4/65: [COLOR="DarkRed"]33[/COLOR] pts, 31 rebs, 11 blks[/B]
[B]6. 4/13/65: [COLOR="DarkRed"]30[/COLOR] pts, 26 rebs, 13 blks[/B]
[B]7. 3/22/67: [COLOR="DarkRed"]37[/COLOR] pts, 27 rebs, 11 asts[/B]
8. 3/24/67: 16 pts, 30 rebs, 19 asts
[B]9. 3/31/67: 24 pts, 32 rebs, 13 asts, 12 blks (quad-double)[/B]
[B]10. 4/9/67: 20 pts, 22 rebs, 10 asts[/B]
[B]11. 4/11/67: 29 pts, 36 rebs, 13 asts[/B]
12. 4/14/67: 16 pts, 33 rebs, 10 asts
13. 4/16/67: 10 pts, 38 rebs, 10 asts, 10 blks (quad-double)
14. 4/20/69: 16 pts, 29 rebs, 16 blks
15. 4/23/69: 15 pts, 23 rebs, 13 blks
16. 5/5/69: 18 pts, 27 rebs, 10 blks
[B]17. 4/5/70: [COLOR="DarkRed"]36[/COLOR] pts, 14 rebs, 10 blks[/B]
18. 4/7/70: 12 pts, 26 rebs, 11 asts, 11 blks (quad-double)
[B]19. 4/9/70: [COLOR="DarkRed"]30[/COLOR] pts, 27 rebs, 12 blks[/B]
20. 4/19/70: 11 pts, 21 rebs, 10 blks
21. 3/30/71: 12 pts, 23 rebs, 10 blks
[B]22. 4/22/72: 20 pts, 24 rebs, 10 blks[/B]
[B]23. 5/7/72: 24 pts, 29 rebs, 10 blks [/B]
24. 4/8/73: 11 pts, 30 rebs, 12 blks[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
[B]24[/B] known Triple-Doubles, [B]14[/B] of which were 20+ point triple-doubles, including [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]9[/COLOR][/B] of 30+, and [B]THE[/B] highest scoring triple-double in NBA playoff history.
:sleeping What was we were talking about ? :sleeping
These bro's have creativity as f.kk . Don't repeat yourselves .
According to official stats, Wilt has zero quadruple doubles
According to made up stats, he has lots :applause: :applause: :applause:
[QUOTE=sd3035]According to official stats, Wilt has zero quadruple doubles
According to made up stats, he has lots :applause: :applause: :applause:[/QUOTE]
"Official" stats.
:roll: :roll: :roll:
"Officially" the NBA record for blocked shots in a game is 17.
How about an SI article on a nationally televised game in which Chamberlain blocked 23 shots...
[url]http://www.si.com/vault/1969/01/27/559068/on-topbut-in-trouble[/url]
[QUOTE]So the Lakers walk the ball up the court, get arranged and then, as VBK says, start "to grind it out." The Lakers do not often make 100 points now. "Defense is the thing we're really living on," van Breda Kolff admits, [B]and Chamberlain has been superb, sometimes even awesome, on defense. In a recent game on [COLOR="DarkRed"]national television[/COLOR] he [COLOR="DarkRed"]blocked 23 shots[/COLOR] against Phoenix[/B].[/QUOTE]
Of course, there are many more games in which Chamberlain recorded 20+ blocks, and even some in the 30's.
He has two known 20-20-20 triple doubles, as well.
One is the conventional (and "official") 22 point, 25 rebound, and 21 assist game. And the other was a 34 point, 33 rebound, 20 block game (against HOFer Walt Bellamy BTW.)
[QUOTE=feyki]:sleeping What was we were talking about ? :sleeping
These bro's have creativity as f.kk . Don't repeat yourselves .[/QUOTE]
It always amazes me with the "bashers" here.
On any topic involving Chamberlain...they immediately claim "choker" or "loser", or "30-22-18" (without any context BTW.)
Then, when an actual knowledgeable poster points out just how CLUTCH, and DOMINANT he was in his post-season play...then they inevitably bring up his '69 Finals...as if to show that that was how he ALWAYS played in the post-season.
The REALITY was, that was the WORST series in Wilt's entire post-season career. And even then, he still outplayed a Top-5 GOAT.
Of course, it was his COACH who limited him in that post-season, and it was his COACH with a variety of BLUNDERS, that cost that team a title.
And the one constant with Chamberlain was that he ALWAYS played brilliant DEFENSE. Both one-on-one, and in rim protection.
I have posted the numbers before, but he was holding Russell to series of .399, .397, .386, and even .356 shooting. He was holding Thurmond to series of .392, .373, and even .343. He held Bellamy, in a season in which Bells shot .541 against the league, to a .421 series. And of course, he held a peak Kareem, in seasons in which he shot .577 and .574 against the league... to .481 and .457 (and .414 in the last four games.) And all while consistently blocking 7+ shots per game.
On top of all of that, he was NEVER outrebounded by an opposing center in ANY of his 29 post-season series (EIGHT of which were against RUSSELL.) He was outrebounded in ONE of those 29, in a four game series, in which a PF outrebounded him by a 21.0 rpg to 20.0 rpg. When the two met again a few years later as CENTERS, a 35 year old Wilt, playing 47 mpg in that series, outrebounded a 31 year old Lucas, playing 46 mpg, by a 23.2 rpg to 9.8 rpg margin.
And, of course, a peak Chamberlain averaged 30.4 ppg, with 27.0 rpg, and 4.5 apg...on a .515 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .425 in that same span), and probably with at least 7 blocks per game. In a span of 67 games. Think about that... a string of 67 consecutive games, in which Chamberlain AVERAGED a 30-27-5-7 stat-line, while shooting nearly ten percentage points above the post-season league average...AND, all while slaughtering his HOF peers in scoring, rebounding, blocked shots, and holding them BELOW the post-season league eFG%.
A "scoring" Wilt AVERAGED 33 ppg in his playoff career. Included were post-season runs of 33 ppg, 35 ppg, 35 ppg, and 37 ppg, And included in those were playoff series of 37 ppg, 37 ppg, 39 ppg, and 39 ppg. And included in those 52 games were 11 games of 40+, including FOUR of 50+.
And he wasn't just crushing "average" NBA centers in those games, either. He had series against RUSSELL of 28 ppg, 29 ppg, 30 ppg, 31 ppg, and 34 ppg.
He was dragging last place rosters to within an eyelash of beating the greatest dynasty in NBA history, and when he finally had an EQUAL roster, and that was healthy, he DESTROYED the GOAT dynasty (and RUSSELL.)
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]It always amazes me with the "bashers" here.
On any topic involving Chamberlain...they immediately claim "choker" or "loser", or "30-22-18" (without any context BTW.)
Then, when an actual knowledgeable poster points out just how CLUTCH, and DOMINANT he was in his post-season play...then they inevitably bring up his '69 Finals...as if to show that that was how he ALWAYS played in the post-season.
The REALITY was, that was the WORST series in Wilt's entire post-season career. And even then, he still outplayed a Top-5 GOAT.
Of course, it was his COACH who limited him in that post-season, and it was his COACH with a variety of BLUNDERS, that cost that team a title.
And the one constant with Chamberlain was that he ALWAYS played brilliant DEFENSE. Both one-on-one, and in rim protection.
I have posted the numbers before, but he was holding Russell to series of .399, .397, .386, and even .356 shooting. He was holding Thurmond to series of .392, .373, and even .343. He held Bellamy, in a season in which Bells shot .541 against the league, to a .421 series. And of course, he held a peak Kareem, in seasons in which he shot .577 and .574 against the league... to .481 and .457 (and .414 in the last four games.) And all while consistently blocking 7+ shots per game.
On top of all of that, he was NEVER outrebounded by an opposing center in ANY of his 29 post-season series (EIGHT of which were against RUSSELL.) He was outrebounded in ONE of those 29, in a four game series, in which a PF outrebounded him by a 21.0 rpg to 20.0 rpg. When the two met again a few years later as CENTERS, a 35 year old Wilt, playing 47 mpg in that series, outrebounded a 31 year old Lucas, playing 46 mpg, by a 23.2 rpg to 9.8 rpg margin.
And, of course, a peak Chamberlain averaged 30.4 ppg, with 27.0 rpg, and 4.5 apg...on a .515 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .425 in that same span), and probably with at least 7 blocks per game. In a span of 67 games. Think about that... a string of 67 consecutive games, in which Chamberlain AVERAGED a 30-27-5-7 stat-line, while shooting nearly ten percentage points above the post-season league average...AND, all while slaughtering his HOF peers in scoring, rebounding, blocked shots, and holding them BELOW the post-season league eFG%.
A "scoring" Wilt AVERAGED 33 ppg in his playoff career. Included were post-season runs of 33 ppg, 35 ppg, 35 ppg, and 37 ppg, And included in those were playoff series of 37 ppg, 37 ppg, 39 ppg, and 39 ppg. And included in those 52 games were 11 games of 40+, including FOUR of 50+.
And he wasn't just crushing "average" NBA centers in those games, either. He had series against RUSSELL of 28 ppg, 29 ppg, 30 ppg, 31 ppg, and 34 ppg.
He was dragging last place rosters to within an eyelash of beating the greatest dynasty in NBA history, and when he finally had an EQUAL roster, and that was healthy, he DESTROYED the GOAT dynasty (and RUSSELL.)[/QUOTE]
Nothing changed , zero vision over there .
Playmaking >>>>> Points
Defence also includes on ball and help defence . Of course , you couldn't know those , your god had not even a little bit of those in his play .