[QUOTE=johndeeregreen]I can count on one hand how many twenty footers Duncan has taken in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]
wow, I didn't know you could count
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[QUOTE=johndeeregreen]I can count on one hand how many twenty footers Duncan has taken in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]
wow, I didn't know you could count
Uhhh... all right?
Do you have a point?
Undoubtedly Duncan can shoot the midrange jumper, but shoots it extremely rarely. It's really not a big part of his game at all, and definitely not something that separates him in any way from Hakeem.
[QUOTE=johndeeregreen]Uhhh... all right?
Do you have a point?
Undoubtedly Duncan can shoot the midrange jumper, but shoots it extremely rarely. It's really not a big part of his game at all, and definitely not something that separates him in any way from Hakeem.[/QUOTE]
uh, I beg to differ, his eighteen footer from the wing is a staple of his (bank shot) and maybe he hasn't used it a lot this particualr playoff season (probably because the plan versus the Jazz and Suns was to jam it down their throats) but it is practically a trademark of his.
and back when he used to battle the Lakers he would kill Shaq from the top of the key, even hit that impossible jumper before Derek Fisher one upped him at the 0.4 second mark.
You guys are clearly not taking into account Hakeem Olajuwon's clutch factor v Tim Duncan's. How quickly some forget how Tim would and still does now at times clank those key free throws circa 2000-2004 versus LA Lakers although they won it all in 2003. Hakeem would Dream Shake Timmy while Timmy would Funda"mentally" do Olajuwon.
[QUOTE=hateraid]Give poeticism credit for laying down the stats. Yes, stats don't tell the story, but it's funny how people use that argument when they argue for "their" player. Also give him credit for actually summing up an argument rather than," Hakeem is better, take my word for it," argument. Tell you the truth I've been around for both their careers and I'd take Duncan for a smidgen myself.
You can't use the competition arugument. Although yes, Dream had Ewing Shaq,and Admiral, but let's not take away from as prime Webber, prime Sheed, prime Nowitzki, they both had Shaq, but Laker Shaq was far better and on a more dominant Laker team than early Orlando. Also please don't take away level of competition in both eras. Yeah, Hakeem's era had the legendary status, the same status that blinds our judgment when it comes to comparing. we always seem to rate the legends miles ahead of todays competition. It's not that far off.
Accolades do tell part of the story. It show your ability to lead a team and create you own legendary status. Statistics aslo show your performance against elite competition. So taking into account of the accolades, Duncan has been doing what he's doing longer and with more consistancy. With those accolades piled up, and no doubt in my mind he will ad to his acheivments for at least 4 or five more years. His body is a warrior, barely ever gets injured, does his thing, even though he's less physically gift compared to Hakeem in the athleticism and speed department.
Supporting cast. Hakeem had the better teams. Yeah, you can say, Ducan had Admiral, but at the same points of their career (supporting cast) hakeem also had a hungry Barkley, and Pip, and a Drexler. Even with their combonation of what seemed the best compliment of legends, Hakeem didn't lead the team to glory. It's arguable Duncan may have, but he has lead a weaker team against what seemed to be an invincable Lakers team.
So you can see any argument can be debunked whether it be accolades, competition, or supporting cast. It's how you put your personal spin on it. You can't just come in and say ," hakeem is way better, I've seen them play." Where the evidence and the back-up statement? My dad saw Dr.J in his prime and many older people, who are die hard fans, are convinced that Julius Erving was a way better individual player than Jordan. So, we can't debunk that argument because we judge players from the past on stories or reputation, and in to most the degree, accolades.
So who would I take? Duncan. He's just the more consistant player, and has been doing it a top level longer. I like dependability. It's a good foundation to lay your team upon. Keep in mind the fact that Duncan played all four years in college, shortening the time span in which he could have racked up more accolades early in his career. And he most certainly will achieve more.
With that all said, Go Cavs![/QUOTE]
:applause:
[QUOTE=JtotheIzzo]Duncan is better than Hakeem
there I said it, feels good too...now let me explain why, because so often, us here at ISH love to big up thepast in our revisionist history.
-Sure Hakeem had a nice post up game, but guess what, so does Duncan, it may not be as pretty but it yields the same results.
-Both are great defenders, potentialy all NBA defense every season, so this area is a push.
-Both have rings, but TD has more, and at a time where his conference was the stronger conference.
-The difference in my opinion is Duncan's range out to twenty two feet. Hakeem never had the ability to kill a team from the wing or the top of the key with jumpers like TD can, this is the difference, everything else is close or a push.
Timmy is better
get over yourselves.[/QUOTE]
:applause:
[QUOTE=allball]if you factor in defense there is no way you say Shaq surpassed Hakeem. Shaq was the most dominant offensive threat but defensively no way. Hakeem never had a Kobe or Wade either or a Magic or Jerry West. Clyde was past his prime.all time lists are based on opinions bro not science.[/QUOTE]
With all due respect... Shaq being above Hakeem on any all time greatest list is FACT. Like Jordan over Jerry West on that same list, or Magic above Barkley.
I'm not saying Shaq was a superior skilled player. But his dominance in his prime, plus all his rings and playoffs runs puts him above Hakeem, career wise. There is no disputing Shaq is above Hakeem on any all time greatest list.
[QUOTE=EricForman]With all due respect... Shaq being above Hakeem on any all time greatest list is FACT. Like Jordan over Jerry West on that same list, or Magic above Barkley.
I'm not saying Shaq was a superior skilled player. But his dominance in his prime, plus all his rings and playoffs runs puts him above Hakeem, career wise. There is no disputing Shaq is above Hakeem on any all time greatest list.[/QUOTE]
Agreed, no disputing at all; or that Tim Duncan has passed Shaq on the all-time list, but that is an argument for another thread.
:pimp:
:)
[QUOTE=Loki]:pimp:
:)[/QUOTE]
:oldlol:
which leads to
:cheers:
[QUOTE=poeticism707]Sorry guys, but as great a player as Hakeem is, its not close. Lets review the scorecard:
Titles: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
Finals MVPs: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
MVPs: Hakeem 1, Duncan 2
DPOY: Hakeem 2, Duncan 0
First team all NBA: Hakeem 6, Duncan 9
first team all defense: Hakeem 5, Duncan 7
Hakeem Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.1rpg, 2.5apg, 3.1bpg
Duncan: 21.8ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg
The only only awards Hakeem has the Duncan doesn't is DPOY, but Duncan already has 2 more first team defense selections, and of the fact that Duncan should easily have multiple DPOY awards by now. Duncan may win his 4th title and 4th MVP in only his 10th year. Again, Hakeem is a great player, but its not close. Tim Duncan is already greater.
One of the excuses I DO NOT want to hear for Hakeem: "Hakeem didn't win more titles because of Jordan." Same as Barkley (except once) Hakeem was in the West, Mike in the East, and they never met in the Finals. Meaning it wasn't Jordan eliminating Hakeem year after year. He is a great player, but there are no "Jordan" excuses for why he didn't win more.[/QUOTE]
you cant really compare those numbers because Tim Duncan's numbers will go down with age..so Hakeem will have the better career numbers....those numbers are skewed because Hakeem played like 3 years too long so his numbers took a nose dive
It is a tough choice but i am going to go with Hakeem on this one. When comparing statlines you have to remember that Hakeem played 18 seasons and his last 5 or so years were when his athleticism and skills were waning which would bring his averages down. On defense i think Hakeem is a step above Duncan. For one if you look at the stats Hakeem averaged 3 blocks and almost 2 steals per game for his career which is amazing. Duncan might have the NBA-defensive teams edge but you have to remember that Hakeem played in an era with some great defensive centers. He played against Eaton, Ewing, Robinson, and Mutombo late in his career. Im not taking away from Duncan's accomplishments either but he plays the PF making him available for either F spot on the defensive teams while Hakeem had to battle all those great C for one spot. And yes Duncan has one more championship but Hakeem did when his two championship in the two years that Jordan was retired meaning other teams actually had a shot at the title. He also lost a title against one of those great 80's Celtics teams in his second year. When people use shooting range as an advantage for Duncan it doesnt hold much wieght becuase while yes he can hit a jumper out to about 20 feet but it is not something he uses frequently. If he used the 18-20 ft. jumper like KG does it would be a huge advantage but Duncan's main operating zone and where he is most effective is 10 ft. and in.
Tim Duncan could win the next 90 titles and still be worse thank Hakeem, he simply has less of an impact on the game. He's a worse scorer and defender. Accolades and titles he collects in a different era with a different coach and different teammates doesn't alter how good he is at basketball.
And let's please stop this talk about how Hakeem/Shaq only dominated for a few years. That's plain BS.
[QUOTE=SCY]Tim Duncan could win the next 90 titles and still be worse thank Hakeem, he simply has less of an impact on the game. He's a worse scorer and defender. Accolades and titles he collects in a different era with a different coach and different teammates doesn't alter how good he is at basketball.
And let's please stop this talk about how Hakeem/Shaq only dominated for a few years. That's plain BS.[/QUOTE]
man u are probly arguin with 15 yrs old kids...or less...they dnt know nothing about Hakeem/Shaq dominance...its like a TD bandwagon of kids...dnt waste ur time
[QUOTE=EricForman]With all due respect... Shaq being above Hakeem on any all time greatest list is FACT. Like Jordan over Jerry West on that same list, or Magic above Barkley.
I'm not saying Shaq was a superior skilled player. But his dominance in his prime, plus all his rings and playoffs runs puts him above Hakeem, career wise. There is no disputing Shaq is above Hakeem on any all time greatest list.[/QUOTE]
well lists are always subjective so...