AD is shedding light on Kareem's career & ranking, imo (new all-time rankings inside)

Think about the first things you'd bring up about Kobe if you treated him like Lebron.

All those stats you post for MJ and Lebron...they favor Lebron in a comparison over Kobe.

Lebron has him dead on longevity.

Then think about what you'd say about Kobe's early years when he wasn't even getting burn because he wasn't that good, the airballs in Utah, his horrid 00 finals, getting murked by Duncan in 03 with Shaq, one of the worst finals from a star ever in 04, missing the playoffs in 05, blowing a 3-1 series lead in 06, getting destroyed in the 08 finals, getting swept as the title favorite in the 2nd round in 11...etc.

The problem isn't thinking Kobe was better than most do...it is that you aren't remotely consistent in your treatment of certain players.

highlighting the "lesser" side of someone's career is not convincing if you do it for one player only. They all have it.

I can give you a bigger list for Lebron if you wish for example.

[QUOTE=LAL]highlighting the "lesser" side of someone's career is not convincing if you do it for one player only. They all have it.

I can give you a bigger list for Lebron if you wish for example.[/QUOTE]

I tend to agree, but you are missing the point.

The point is that is what he'd be saying about Kobe if he treated him like Lebron.

For example, he's arguing that it would be humiliating for Lebron to lose with Davis this year. In year 17 of his career...on a team in their first year together going up against at least one team as good or better.

So, my point is...do the same for Kobe. What happened in those 5 years he failed to win with Shaq? Right? We all agree Shaq was better than Davis...so where is the consistency? Lakers were favorites in 08...so I'm assuming he is going to hammer Kobe for playing so poorly in that series and losing...right?

That is my point...

Just look at the previous post. He brings up 08 vs Duncan and 10 vs KG. Like only someone ignorant or biased...or someone that thinks we are all stupid...is going to do that and think it proves something.

And, in terms of Kobe vs Lebron...I really don't think you can...especially because Lebron was so much better early on in his career compared to Kobe....and has been much better later in his career as well.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

Yes, 11 he was terrible...[B][COLOR="DarkRed"]but Kobe was equally terrible in 04...and actually won a title in 00 playing even worse.[/COLOR][/B]

[/quote]
Yes, they both had horrible series - lebron in 07', 11', and also 08' ECSF, while Kobe had his share of bad series too

So that's not a convincing argument.. you're 0-1 so far in convincing me.


[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

[B]In some of those finals...lebron was absolutely drawing dead to win it.[/B]

[/QUOTE]
Not in 2011, where he was the favorite

And not in 2014, where it was [url=https://www.nj.com/knicks/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_or_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch.html]even odds[/url], so many expected him to win.

Ultimately, Lebron has 4 series where he lost when expected to win - 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2014.. I also think he could've won in 2017, although most disagree.

So your argument didn't convince me.. 0-2


[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

Again, context matters. [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]Kobe played with Shaq 8 years...they won 3 titles[/COLOR][/B]. If Lebron did this you would be absolutely killing him.

[/quote]
Kobe was a teenager, similar to 04' and 05' Lebron, yet you're comparing those years to Lebron's purely prime years with Wade and Kyrie?

Sounds like you're ignoring facts again and blindly committed to Lebron... 0-3


[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

KG had started his decline by 2010 and the Celtics were absolutely not as good.

[/QUOTE]
KG was declining but so was Kobe, and his Big 4 [U]cast[/U] was still better to Kobe's cast... that's all that matters - the cast.. KG's cast was easily better, yet Kobe beat him.

So another failed argument for you.. 0-4


[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

Dirk murked Kobe with way less help on your standards in 2011.

[/QUOTE]
Earlier you cited Kobe's teenage years as evidence, and now you're citing Kobe's downside years as evidence.. So your argument fails again... 0-5


[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

No, you aren't...you are assuming Kobe was better than he was because of your obsession with MJ and inability to think beyond the circumstances of certain players...all while glossing over all the real issues of Kobe's career and focusing mainly on the negatives of others.

Again, this is why a more unbaised view of Kobe has him as a fringe top-10 player. [B][COLOR="blue"]RealGM had him him at 11th last time I checked.[/COLOR][/B]

And that, based on his actual impact, is where he belongs...somewhere in that range...not in the range of the guys you put him at.

[/QUOTE]
That's because the mainstream and casual fan is only looking at the stats - you only have worthless statistical arguments, while I have a skill-based, factual argument for why Kobe was better:

Lebron had perennial underdogs, while Kobe had perennial favorites despite less help because his superior skillset fit with any system or teammate, so he got more out of teams/had better teams.. :confusedshrug: :applause: … You cannot get me off this clear-cut, [I]skill-based[/I], factual argument with some bullshit stats.. :oldlol:

Kobe was simply better and most players that played against both guys choose Kobe.. I'm simply explaining [I]why[/I] they choose Kobe, even if they themselves can't articulate it (all they know is that kobe's teams were bomb favorites and they had full confidence in victory, while Lebron's teams are less confident underdogs and constantly in need of more help)..

0-6



[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

Again, nothing supports you here.

[/quote]
Except that Kobe needed a Bosh-level player at 2nd option to have perennial favorites, while Lebron had perennial underdogs with Bosh at [U]3rd[/U] option and a kobe-like perimeter stud at 2nd option..

Lebron simply needed [U]way[/U] more help, due to his teammate marginalization resulting from inferior skillset..

Kobe would've been 4/4 with Lebron's Heat teams because he owned the Spurs - it's partly psychological, similar to Lebron's ownage of the Raptors..

Ultimately, there's so many ways that Kobe is superior including a superior skillset (on-ball/off-ball), superior mindset (assassin, teammate galvanizing), superior jumpshooter, superior winner and competitor, attracts double-teams/causes adjustments, among other things

0-7
.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Why are Oscar and Wilt ahead of Lebron?[/QUOTE]

Because they're not threats to Jordan.

[QUOTE]So, my point is...do the same for Kobe. What happened in those 5 years he failed to win with Shaq? Right? We all agree Shaq was better than Davis...so where is the consistency? Lakers were favorites in 08...so I'm assuming he is going to hammer Kobe for playing so poorly in that series and losing...right?[/QUOTE]
It's not honest to say first 5 years with shaq when talking about 13 minutes per game Kobe, actual context, the minute kobe was a starter it was game over, 5 for 7 in a decade and as dominant as anyone.


[QUOTE]Just look at the previous post. He brings up 08 vs Duncan and 10 vs KG. Like only someone ignorant or biased...or someone that thinks we are all stupid...is going to do that and think it proves something.
[/QUOTE]


But then you say this
[QUOTE]And, in terms of Kobe vs Lebron...I really don't think you can...especially because Lebron was so much better early on in his career compared to Kobe....[B]and has been much better later in his career as well.[/B][/QUOTE]
Have you seen 17th year Kobe play? Lebron missed the playoffs and Kobe looked so impressive who knows what he was going to pull off in the playoffs.

Lebron having his own team from the get go and not ending up in a veteran star team was luck, and even if he was better at a younger age, it doesn't mean much, were comparing all time rankings here.

The idea that Kareem was

Sigh...

1. Yes, they both have...that is my point. You missed the point. My point was that you don't talk about them with Kobe. You aren't consistent. You post stats when it comes to MJ vs Lebron as part of your argument..then ignore those same stats that favor Lebron when it comes to comparing him to Kobe. Again, this is called not being an honest actor.

2. Completely agree about 2011. Don't agree about 2014, but I can concede that if you like. Again you miss the point....why aren't you doing this for Kobe? He was favored in 99 and lost. Favored in 03 and lost. Favored in 04 and lost. Favored in 08 after the Pau trade and lost. Favored in 11 to make the finals and lost.

3. Early years matter. You can't ignore them. Lebron was better early on his career vs Kobe...just like he's clearly better late in his career. Sorry if you don't like it, but if we are ranking careers and not peaks...every year counts. I agree some count more than others, but you can't ignore certain years just to fit your conclusions.

4. No, this is false. Nothing supports the 10 Celtics being the better team leading up to that. To use your own criteria, the Lakers were the pre-season favorites and then the Celtics struggled all year as KG came back from injury. Regardless, you ignored 08...when Kobe was actually the favorite and played KG's team...and lost. Again, why ignore that if you want to be taken seriously?

5. Every year counts...and if you are going to argue 11 doesn't matter for Kobe because of his decline. The longevity of his career sucks in comparison. So you basically only have 00 through 10 as relevant. Again, why would Kobe get a pass for 11, but you say Lebron losing this year be humiliating? Kobe was in year 15 at the time and didn't have near the mileage Lebron currently does. Again, you make my point for me...you are extremely biased.

6. I disagree overall, but can agree that Kobe is better than some of his stats suggest. However, I haven't seen any statistical analysis from you that approaches the Backpicks stuff...which really details some myths surrounding Kobe's defense / shot jacking. So, no...you don't have much here...especially when I've seen your "stats" you post...and they all favor Lebron over Kobe. You just don't use them here consistently because you don't like the conclusion as I said above.

7. Yes, I agree...Kobe has some superior skills in specific areas that are useful. This is a non-point as I, nor anyone, would ever argue that Lebron is better at every facet of the game.

[QUOTE=LAL]It's not honest to say first 5 years with shaq when talking about 13 minutes per game Kobe, actual context, the minute kobe was a starter it was game over, 5 for 7 in a decade and as dominant as anyone.





But then you say this

Have you seen 17th year Kobe play? Lebron missed the playoffs and Kobe looked so impressive who knows what he was going to pull off in the playoffs.

Lebron having his own team from the get go and not ending up in a veteran star team was luck, and even if he was better at a younger age, it doesn't mean much, were comparing all time rankings here.[/QUOTE]

Again, every year of a career matters. I've addressed this, but I'll address it again here. Some clearly matter more than others, but you can't just shrug off the fact that Lebron was way better than Kobe early on. You guys make it sound like we should just ignore Kobe's first 3 years...that isn't how it works...sorry. And, again, I'm not even making that argument really...I'm using it to show the inconsistency. Which is apparent...Lebron has to win in year 17 or it is humiliating...but Kobe losing with Shaq is fine.

Yes, I watched Kobe's entire career closely...and he's not as good as Lebron has been on the court late in his career...it isn't particularly close.

I don't think Kobe was as "dominant as anyone"...certainly not Shaq or Duncan from that era in my opinion. But even if I agreed with that...it wouldn't change my point...which was that Kobe with similar help vs the all-time guys I listed is not "automatic title" as has been claimed

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]The idea that Kareem was “birdfed” is enough to make me assume 3ball missed a lot more of the old days than he lets on. Even old Kareem was one of the best one on one scorers of all time.

Guys like Hakeem and Ewing could barely guard him one on one but he needs to be “birdfed”.....[/QUOTE]
I understand that Kareem had the 2nd best go-to move ever, but the skyhook was a possession-finishing shot, so he still needed to be fed to take that shot

given his bad teams without a goat PG, and his great teams WITH one, this at least APPEARS to be similar to AD, who obviously needs a great PG to have a great team too

otoh, guys like Duncan didn't need a goat PG or bird-feeding - he would get the ball at the start of the possession, face-up his man, and control the whole possession.. Duncan directed offense and dictated pace better, aka controlled the game without needing a goat PG

I think that's a big difference and explains why Kareem is more like AD and needs a goat PG to have a great team, while Duncan had great teams with a couple short euros riding his coattails

At a minimum, it would seem like the bird-feeders (Magic, Lebron) > then the bird-fed (kareem, russell).. Magic and Lebron both had good teams and 1 seeds without a goat big, but the same can't be said the other way around.

The basketball having to be passed to you in order for you score does not mean you have to be birdfed. It means you

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Again, every year of a career matters. I've addressed this, but I'll address it again here. Some clearly matter more than others, but you can't just shrug off the fact that Lebron was way better than Kobe early on. You guys make it sound like we should just ignore Kobe's first 3 years...that isn't how it works...sorry. And, again, I'm not even making that argument really...I'm using it to show the inconsistency. Which is apparent...Lebron has to win in year 17 or it is humiliating...but Kobe losing with Shaq is fine.

Yes, I watched Kobe's entire career closely...and he's not as good as Lebron has been on the court late in his career...it isn't particularly close.

I don't think Kobe was as "dominant as anyone"...certainly not Shaq or Duncan from that era in my opinion. But even if I agreed with that...it [B]wouldn't change my point...which was that Kobe with similar help vs the all-time guys I listed is not "automatic title" as has been claimed[/B][/QUOTE]
Your first point was that you disagreed with putting Kobe in that first tier with Lebron/duncan etc.. I'm saying there's not much to disagree about putting Kobe atleast on that (higher even) same tier.

[QUOTE=LAL]Your first point was that you disagreed with putting Kobe in that first tier with Lebron/duncan etc.. I'm saying there's not much to disagree about putting Kobe atleast on that (higher even) same tier.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I disagree with that.

I think Kobe's individual impact and overall career was not good enough to warrant putting him with Lebron/Duncan in the all-time rankings.

Without having to write even more...this is about as close to my take on Kobe that you'll find...although I probably rate him slightly higher than he does;

[url]https://backpicks.com/2018/03/01/backpicks-goat-14-kobe-bryant/[/url]

The "bird-fed" Kareem shit is that same crap people used to tell me on here about why Dirk would never win a title.

"He needs someone to throw him the ball"

:D

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]The idea that Kareem was