Teammate career rankings between Jordan and Lebron -- The Reality

I can't wait to visit this site in 2030 and see MJ vs Lebron debates still going crazy.

Heat, Bulls had similar results in win totals in the previous four years.

1990-1993 Bulls: 55, 61, 67, 57
2011-2014 Heat: 58, 57*, 66, 54

Yet...

1994 Bulls: 55
2015 Heat: 37

So 55, 61, 67, 57, 55 for the Bulls from 1990-1994 and 58, 57, 66, 54--and 37 for the Heat from 2011-2015.

Can anyone identify the difference here? There is one number here that is not like the other numbers.

*Over 82 games.

Pippen wasn't a star because no one noticed or cared if he played bad.. that's similar to role players and bench players..

the media didn't follow how he played - he had MANY stretches of 12 on 30% similar to Paul George recently - but unlike George, Pippen was never knocked for it.. no one even noticed.. people knew his ceiling was about 20 points, so no one cared when he only got 12.. it was common

people didn't expect much from Pippen.. because he wasn't a true star with actual responsibility that gets knocked for playing poorly... he was treated like a role player (unnoticed overall, virtually unneeded in the clutch, and not held responsible)... He was just a good athlete and slot-filler that took 4 years before barely performing those roles adequately with sufficient toughness..

[U]Look how low[/U] his all-time rankings are in every category - the OP showed that pippen is no better than Kevin Love on offense for their careers - probably not top 100 on offense - so TONS AND TONS of guys would've won in Pippen's place

And it's been demonstrated that MJ didn't need Pippen - he obviously didn't "need" a sidekick with spotty offense that forces MJ to have the goat production rate and win every ring as scoring champ (while assisting 30% more often and getting more dpoy votes every year).. certainly MJ doesn't "need" a sidekick that makes him do all that.

Furthermore, 89' MJ nearly beat the Pistons even though Pippen averaged 10 on 40% (14/6/3 in regular season) - he obviously would've won if Pippen was replaced by a better 2nd option, which proves that MJ didn't need Pippen to win in 89', or Phil (Phil wasn't there in 89').. So MJ didn't need Pippen or Phil - case closed - the 89' carry-job proves it.

Ultimately, Pippen played exactly like Larry Hughes except he was barely more effective by being 2 inches taller - but they play exactly the same... FREQUENTLY disappointing offensively, but no one noticed because Pippen was intuitively a role player in everyone's mind, not someone that is held responsible for poor play (aka a star).. MJ was expected to win and lose every game, while Pippen coattailed

[QUOTE=Jailblazers7;14111458]I can't wait to visit this site in 2030 and see MJ vs Lebron debates still going crazy.[/QUOTE]

I'll see you there :cheers:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14111316]No one would draft Kawhi over LeBron and only Kobe stans would draft Kobe over LeBron. :oldlol:

Let's compare Pippen to MJ stain darling Miller, probably the only player that rivals Ewing as an object of hype for them.

All-NBA: Pippen 7, Miller 3
All-NBA 1st: Pippen 3, Miller 0
All-NBA 1st/2nd: Pippen 5, Miller 0
Top 5 MVP: Pippen 2, Miller 0
Top 10 MVP: Pippen 5, Miller 0
High MVP finish: Pippen 3rd, Miller 13th (tied with J. Rose, M. Finley, D. Armstrong with 1 fifth place vote each)
Prime BPM: Pippen 6.0, Miller 4.2
Prime VORP per 82: Pippen 6.3, Miller 4.6

This is a joke. I am not going to look up more to compare the two. It is obvious one player was much better--yet MJ stans will rave about Miller and say "Pippen sucked."

The consistent theme is this: if you played with MJ you sucked, if you played against MJ you were a flawless legend. Miller=Curry per some MJ stans. :roll:[/QUOTE]
Yeah. Id rather draft a guy who needs 2 superstars over a guy who needs none. And i couldnt think of a team that has won with a pippen type of player

Knicks suck. Knicks fans should create another thread about how their team kept losing to a one man team with really, really bad other players (certainly no one as good as the great Starks, Oakley, or Charles Smith cast on the Bulls' roster) who "played so badly" in the year the Knicks had their one 60 win season in the last half a century but the Knicks still took the L. Damn! :(

[QUOTE=TheCorporation;14111514]I'll see you there :cheers:[/QUOTE]

You wish fool

Lebron will be borderline top 5 by most, and eventually borderline top 10

Whereas people only talk about mj being NUMBER ONE.. that's the only rank anyone ever discusses MJ as... So only MJ has and will stand the test of time.

Lebron will be like Kobe if kobe HADN'T died (fade away)

[QUOTE=3ball;14111512]Pippen wasn't a star because no one noticed or cared if he played bad.. that's similar to role players and bench players.

the media didn't follow how he played - he had MANY stretches of 12 on 30% similar to Paul George recently - but unlike George, Pippen was never knocked for it.. no one even noticed.. people knew his ceiling was about 20 points, so no one cared when he only got 12.. it was common

Ultimately, Pippen played exactly like Larry Hughes except he was barely more effective by being 2 inches taller - but they play exactly the same... FREQUENTLY disappointing offensively, but no one noticed because Pippen was intuitively a role player in everyone's mind, not someone that is held responsible for poor play (aka a star).. MJ was expected to win and lose every game, while Pippen coattailed[/QUOTE]

Pippen had better advanced stats than Ewing. And Ewing led NY who was Jordan's best 90s comp. In other words, you can delude yourself all you like, but the hard data disagrees with you. Undeniably so.

[quote]WS/48: [B]Pippen .185[/B], Ewing .172
BPM: [B]Pippen 6.0[/B], Ewing 4.0
OBPM: Pippen 3.9, Ewing 2.0
DBPM: [B]Pippen 2.1[/B], Ewing 2.0
PER: Ewing 22.5, Pippen 21.2
VORP: [B]Pippen 45.9[/B] (599 games), Ewing 44.7 (800 games)
VORP per 82: [B]Pippen 6.3[/B], Ewing 4.6
ORTG: [B]Pippen 112[/B], Ewing 108
TS %: Ewing 56%, Pippen 55%[/quote]

So if Pippen was a bench player or just "Larry Hughes" then what does that say about Jordan's comp? You aren't getting off, scott free with these claims.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14111563]Knicks suck. Knicks fans should create another thread about how their team kept losing to a one man team with really, really bad other players (certainly no one as good as the great Starks, Oakley, or Charles Smith cast on the Bulls' roster) who "played so badly" in the year the Knicks had their one 60 win season in the last half a century but the Knicks still took the L. Damn! :([/QUOTE]

LoL. This guy just took an L

[QUOTE=insidious301;14111620]So if Pippen was a bench player or just "Larry Hughes" then what does that say about Jordan's comp?[/QUOTE]

It says we can't take MJ's rangz seriously. Pippen was ahead of Barkley and Malone several times in all-NBA with each of them in their primes. So MJ was playing teams whose best player was worse than Larry Hughes some years of their primes. LeBron was playing KD/Westbrook/Harden, KD/Curry/Klay/Green/Iggy, Duncan/Kawhi/Parker/Ginobili. Every one of these players is worse than Larry Hughes.

[QUOTE=insidious]Pippen had better advanced stats than Ewing. And Ewing led NY who was Jordan's best 90s comp. In other words, you can delude yourself all you like, but the hard data disagrees with you[/QUOTE]

Data he himself was citing as evidence of Pippen sucking--just yesterday. These are [U]his own preferred metrics[/U]. :roll:

[QUOTE=1-9ball]BPM means nothing and doesn't offset Pippen's weak PPG, TS, PER, WS/48, OBPM, ORTG, assist %, and PLAYOFF PERFORMANCE[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?484204-30-guys-had-better-statistica-peak-than-pippen-in-90-s-and-better-playoff-performance/page2[/url]

We haven't even gotten around to playoffs. Pippen had several great finals; Ewing melted down in his one finals appearance.

[U]Prime Assist %[/U]

Pippen: 24.5%
Ewing: 10.8%

[QUOTE=goozeman;14110880][B]Career Rankings[/B]

[B]PER:[/B]

Anthony Davis....3
Dwayne Wade......21
Kyrie Irving.....33
Kevin Love.......45
Chris Bosh.......62
Scottie Pippen...132
Horace Grant.....185

[B]OBPM:[/B]

Anthony Davis....12
Kyrie Irving.....13
Dwayne Wade......25
Kevin Love.......29
Scottie Pippen...90
Chris Bosh.......102
Horace Grant.....107

[B]
WS/48:[/B]

Anthony Davis....13
Horace Grant.....55
Kevin Love.......57
Kyrie Irving.....68
Dwayne Wade......70
Chris Bosh.......76
Scottie Pippen...129
[B]
Ortg:[/B]

Horace Grant.....4 :biggums:
Anthony Davis....28
Kevin Love.......47
Kyrie Irving.....89
Chris Bosh.......107
Dwayne Wade......231
Scottie Pippen...NR top 250
[B]
Effective Field Goal Percentage:[/B]

Anthony Davis....86
Kyrie Irving.....99
Horace Grant.....206
Kevin Love.......225
Chris Bosh.......227
Scottie Pippen...244
Dwayne Wade......NR top 250
[B]
True Shooting:[/B]

Anthony Davis.....41
Kyrie Irving......84
Chris Bosh........89
Kevin Love........92
Dwayne Wade.......183
Dennis Rodman.....244 :rockon:
Scoottie Pippen...NR top 250 :facepalm
Horace Grant......NR top 250

[B]BPM:[/B]

Anthony Davis.....12
Dwayne Wade.......22
Kyrie Irving......32
Scottie Pippen....35 :applause:
Kevin Love........48
Chris Bosh........134
Horace Grant......176


Notice that all the real stats that are actually measuring something tangible (PER, OBPM, Ortg, WS/48, eFG%, TS%, etc) actually correlate very closely with one another in rankings. They all say that Pippen was maybe a top-100 offensive player all-time. Pippen wasn't even a Chris Bosh level offensive talent. Also, Scottie Pippen's BPM ranking is wildly incongruous because it rewards defensive stars playing on great defensive teams. From BREF about the BPM 2.0 changes:




When basketball reference reworked the stat back in 2016, players like John Stockton (another Pippen-like two-way player) saw their career BPM double. And here is the kicker... Even with that bonus bump gifted to him and playing on the best defensive teams of all-time practically his entire career, Pippen wouldn't even be a top-three impact player compared to Lebron's teammates. All-time Pippen is just slightly better than Kevin Love.

In summation, in order for Lebron to be on the level of Jordan, he would need to win six titles and win six Finals MVP's with a Chris Bosh/Kevin Love level player as his second option.

Lebron fans...

[IMG]https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2Fl4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1[/IMG][/QUOTE]

this is such a dumb thread cuz Pippen played well past his prime.. And won BBALL series without MJ.. MJ BLANK WITHOUT PIPPEN.. Pippen has 6 rings must make him better thanMAGIC.. LOL

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14111638]It says we can't take MJ's rangz seriously. Pippen was ahead of Barkley and Malone several times in all-NBA with each of them in their primes. So MJ was playing teams whose best player was worse than Larry Hughes some years of their primes. LeBron was playing KD/Westbrook/Harden, KD/Curry/Klay/Green/Iggy, Duncan/Kawhi/Parker/Ginobili. Every one of these players is worse than Larry Hughes.



Data he himself was citing as evidence of Pippen sucking--just yesterday. These are [U]his own preferred metrics[/U]. :roll:[/QUOTE]

One hundred percent. I am still waiting for gooseman & 3ball to answer these pertinent questions, but only if they can remain consistent. Its all fun and games until you're asked to back it up.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14111563]Knicks suck. Knicks fans should create another thread about how their team kept losing to a one man team with really, really bad other players (certainly no one as good as the great Starks, Oakley, or Charles Smith cast on the Bulls' roster) who "played so badly" in the year the Knicks had their one 60 win season in the last half a century but the Knicks still took the L. Damn! :([/QUOTE]

Imagine being a Bulls fan so that means your #2 option was better than your greatest rivalries (Knicks) 1st option (Ewing).


WHAT. A. TIME. :lol

[QUOTE=3ball;14111565]You wish fool

Lebron will be borderline top 5 by most, and eventually borderline top 10

Whereas people only talk about mj being NUMBER ONE.. that's the only rank anyone ever discusses MJ as... So only MJ has and will stand the test of time.

Lebron will be like Kobe if kobe HADN'T died (fade away)[/QUOTE]

This # aint going doint baby girl

[img]https://i.postimg.cc/P5HyRKwN/wow-7132-goat.png[/img]

MJ is the one on the decline. He might not be top 5 by 2030 Watch and Learn.

[QUOTE=insidious301;14111671]One hundred percent. I am still waiting for gooseman & 3ball to answer these pertinent questions, but only if they can remain consistent. Its all fun and games until you're asked to back it up.[/QUOTE]

Yup but they are cutting and running or dodging. Same with tpols, who was among those going on and on about how 90's players would score a lot more today because this era is so weak, defenses are so bad, etc. Won't apply the same logic to MJ's teammates in the OP, though. These guys have no actual beliefs hence the non-stop agenda driven flip flopping but they should at least admit it. They show in threads and pretend they have a thought out, reasoning, factually based position.

[QUOTE=TheCorporation]Imagine being a Bulls fan so that means your #2 option was better than your greatest rivalries (Knicks) 1st option (Ewing).


WHAT. A. TIME.[/QUOTE]

It was glorious! :rockon:

[QUOTE=1-9ball]Lebron will be borderline top 5 by most, and eventually borderline top 10[/QUOTE]

Is this guy on crack? LeBron is consensus top 3 at minimum if he retired tomorrow.

These people hallucinate their own rankings while ignoring consensus rankings. It is fine to disagree with the consensus but those fools deny it even exists. So LeBron is "borderline top 10." Pippen is Larry Hughes. Ewing>LeBron. Miller=Curry. Etc. All in Jordanstan. :lol