Jordan won 6 rings in a weak 22-27 team league, half were expansion.

Not to mention MJ had a miniscule testicles.

90’s Ball: [IMG]https://64.media.tumblr.com/27e3e826a543e12294386c56bcf54f82/tumblr_mzk8myXdDK1svt5w5o1_400.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;14170137]Totally agree...

Like how people always say [I]"look what dude avg. last year, he's a superstar!!!!"[/I]

I don't give a shit what dude avg. last year for another team, I only care about what he averages this season, on said team. Base a player on how he's performing currently, not what he did last year. Last years stats can't help me win this year.[/QUOTE]

One way to do that is to look at all-NBA players in given years--we can't define "HOF level" in a given year. They won't do that because they know Jordan's teams have the 11-9 edge in the finals by the measure and LeBron's have a 14-18 deficit.

There are roughly the same # of people in each era who looked like they would make the HOF but didn't or won't (others in this thread--not you--want to pretend that only applies to when MJ played but magically not to when LJ did). Rajon Rondo was considered a future HOF player in the early 2010's. No one even remembers that. For injuries, we always hear about Penny, Hill, KJ, Price, etc. (Kemp got fat--that isn't an "injury") but you have Rose, Arenas, Roy, Yao, D-Will, Amare (a better version of Kemp--no tears for him), Rondo, Noah as people from this era. Griffin, Love may not make it either (resumes are similar to Kemp's, except Griffin was once a MVP candidate). They just don't have the 90's nostalgia going for them.

Some of it is shady accounting. Terry Cummings made 2 all-star teams in an 8-9 year prime. We are hearing he was going to be a HOFer. :lol

We also are seeing "MVP candidate" defined down as anyone who get MVP votes because they know what that data would show. By that logic, Rodman was a MVP candidate 4x--which explodes the entire point of their spin. :lol

[QUOTE] Paired up with one of the best PFs, if not the best, and Stockton was STILL an MVP candidate[/QUOTE]

Stockton was never a MVP candidate. :roll: That he was never a MVP candidate is used against him by people like Bill Simmons because he is the only top 40 all-time player to never be. He got a few 4th or 5th place votes in some years, like a lot of players do. Here is his "highest" finish:

1988-89 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Tot

[22May89] (10) (7) (5) (3) (1) Pts

Magic Johnson (LAL) ..... 42.5 664.5
Michael Jordan (CHI) .... 27.5 598.8
Karl Malone (UTA) ....... 5 362
Patrick Ewing (NYK) ..... 8 200
Hakeem Olajuwon (HOU) ... 2 179.3
Charles Barkley (PHI) ... 0 94.3
[B] John Stockton (UTA) ..... 0 28[/B]
Kevin Johnson (PHO) ..... 0 22
Tom Chambers (PHO) ...... 0 20
Mark Price (CLE) ........ 0 18

Same with 90% the other players Chewbacca referenced. 9th place in MVP is not being a MVP candidate. :oldlol: Let's hone in on 96':

[QUOTE]1996

Kemp - 6th

Payton - 8th

Penny - 3rd

Shaq- 9th[/QUOTE]

1995-96 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Tot

[20May96] (10) (7) (5) (3) (1) Pts

[B] Michael Jordan (CHI) .... 109 3 0 1 0 1114[/B]
David Robinson (SAN) .... 0 54 29 14 9 574
[B] Anfernee Hardaway (ORL) . 2 21 23 19 21 360[/B]
Hakeem Olajuwon (HOU) ... 1 1 9 18 20 238
[B] Scottie Pippen (CHI) .... 0 11 18 14 17 226[/B]
[B] Gary Payton (SEA) ....... 0 7 0 13 10 98[/B]
Karl Malone (UTA) ....... 1 0 8 7 14 85
[B] Shawn Kemp (SEA) ........ 0 3 6 7 1 73[/B]
Grant Hill (DET) ........ 0 2 5 5 9 63
[B] Shaquille O'Neal (ORL) .. 0 2 4 7 8 63[/B]
John Stockton (UTA) ..... 0 1 1 0 0 12
Charles Barkley (PHO) ... 0 0 0 2 2 8
Earvin Johnson (LAL) .... 0 0 0 1 5 8
Alonzo Mourning (MIA) ... 0 0 1 0 1 6
[B] Dennis Rodman (CHI) ..... 0 0 0 1 1 4[/B]
Terrell Brandon (CLE) ... 0 0 0 1 0 3
Mitch Richmond (SAC) .... 0 0 0 1 0 3

Using the logic put forward here, the Bulls had 3 MVP "candidates" in 96'. Damn. :bowdown:

When did MJ win a title in a 22-team league?

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14170235][B]For injuries, we always hear about Penny, Hill, KJ, Price, etc. (Kemp got fat--that isn't an "injury") but you have Rose, Arenas, Roy, Yao, D-Will, Amare (a better version of Kemp--no tears for him), Rondo, Noah as people from this era. [/B]Griffin, Love may not make it either (resumes are similar to Kemp's, except Griffin was once a MVP candidate). They just don't have the 90's nostalgia going for them.[/QUOTE]

This is essentially the problem. The arguments work when they work and don't work when they don't work, depending on who is using them. What you fail to realize is that I'm not trying to use this line of argumentation, on either side, period.

You're correct in your assumption. Many of those whom you mention would have probably made, or would probably make, the HOF. The problem with this argument is that while it lines up with some of the guys from the 90s, LeBron didn't face some of the guys mentioned by you in the playoffs (kinda like MJ didn't and some of the guys from the 90s). And if he did, they weren't at their best.

Guys like Penny, Cummings, KJ, Price, Daughtery, Harper, and Kemp [I]were[/I] at their best, so the comparison isn't entirely apples to apples. Furthermore Kemp getting fat and being on cocaine [I]shouldn't[/I] be MJ's problem.

I'm just gonna say this, MJ played on teams where there were advantages in HOF numbers, but the same can be said for LeBron. Why either side would use this argument is beyond me. It's silly, and I think even you can agree on that. What matters is how the players were when they played in that given year. HOF is a cumulative accomplishment. That's it.

[QUOTE]Some of it is shady accounting. Terry Cummings made 2 all-star teams in an 8-9 year prime. We are hearing he was going to be a HOFer. :lol[/QUOTE]

Yea, you're right. I'm not saying he was guaranteed, but at least provide a little bit of context. After being traded from Milwaukee, Cummings goes to San Antonio and teams up with a young David Robinson.

The Spurs were a 21 win team the year prior and many people think that it was all because of Robinson. It wasn't. Cummings was added and put up 22/8 on 48%. The Spurs became an immediate contender and won 56 games (the [B]most[/B] in franchise history up to that point).

The following season they won 55 games. Injuries started to creep in and by 1992, Cummings went down with a career ending injury at the age of 30.

It's not inconceivable to think that together, Robinson-Elliot-Cummings could have made deeper playoff runs and potentially won a championship together.

In 1992, Robinson went down and missed the last 14 games (Spurs won 47 games that year), but Cummings filled in nicely. He averaged 25 PPG and 13 Rebounds on 49% shooting in the final stretch. In the 1st round knockout, Cummings put up 26/11 on 52%.

Look, even if you don't want to think his career and tandem with Robinson could have led to the HOF had he not blown out his knees, then the point still retraces back to my original claim - what matters is what those guys did [I]at the time[/I].

[B]RS '84-'85: 24/9 on 50%, All-Star, All-NBA
Playoffs '84-'85: 28/9/3/2 on 58%[/B]

That doesn't look like an elite season to you?

[QUOTE]Stockton was never a MVP candidate. :roll: That he was never a MVP candidate is used against him by people like Bill Simmons because he is the only top 40 all-time player to never be. [B]He got a few 4th or 5th place votes in some years, like a lot of players do. Here is his "highest" finish:[/B]

1988-89 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Tot

[22May89] (10) (7) (5) (3) (1) Pts

Magic Johnson (LAL) ..... 42.5 664.5
Michael Jordan (CHI) .... 27.5 598.8
Karl Malone (UTA) ....... 5 362
Patrick Ewing (NYK) ..... 8 200
Hakeem Olajuwon (HOU) ... 2 179.3
Charles Barkley (PHI) ... 0 94.3
[B] John Stockton (UTA) ..... 0 28[/B]
Kevin Johnson (PHO) ..... 0 22
Tom Chambers (PHO) ...... 0 20
Mark Price (CLE) ........ 0 18

Same with 90% the other players Chewbacca referenced. 9th place in MVP is not being a MVP candidate. :oldlol: Let's hone in on 96':

1995-96 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Tot

[20May96] (10) (7) (5) (3) (1) Pts

[B] Michael Jordan (CHI) .... 109 3 0 1 0 1114[/B]
David Robinson (SAN) .... 0 54 29 14 9 574
[B] Anfernee Hardaway (ORL) . 2 21 23 19 21 360[/B]
Hakeem Olajuwon (HOU) ... 1 1 9 18 20 238
[B] Scottie Pippen (CHI) .... 0 11 18 14 17 226[/B]
[B] Gary Payton (SEA) ....... 0 7 0 13 10 98[/B]
Karl Malone (UTA) ....... 1 0 8 7 14 85
[B] Shawn Kemp (SEA) ........ 0 3 6 7 1 73[/B]
Grant Hill (DET) ........ 0 2 5 5 9 63
[B] Shaquille O'Neal (ORL) .. 0 2 4 7 8 63[/B]
John Stockton (UTA) ..... 0 1 1 0 0 12
Charles Barkley (PHO) ... 0 0 0 2 2 8
Earvin Johnson (LAL) .... 0 0 0 1 5 8
Alonzo Mourning (MIA) ... 0 0 1 0 1 6
[B] Dennis Rodman (CHI) ..... 0 0 0 1 1 4[/B]
Terrell Brandon (CLE) ... 0 0 0 1 0 3
Mitch Richmond (SAC) .... 0 0 0 1 0 3[/QUOTE]

This is what I mean, you love creating your own parameters but never allow anyone else to create theirs. Furthermore, you're lying or being deceitful again.

Stockton 1990: One 3rd place vote
Stockton 1991: One 3rd place vote (though finished 12th overall)
Stockton 1995: One 1st place vote, two 2nd place votes, one 3rd place vote
Stockton 1996: One 2nd place vote, one 3rd place vote (though finished 11th overall)
Stockton 1998: One 3rd place vote (though finishing 13th)

So two years he's top ten with multiple votes in the top 3 categories. Does this make him a bonafide candidate [I]in comparison[/I] to the elite players like MJ, Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, and Malone? Certainly not. But the same goes for Pippen.

In addition, you already mentioned Shaq and Penny. In 1998, Payton finished 3rd overall and Baker got three 3rd place votes. Guess that doesn't count, either? How about Duncan and Robinson?

In 1996, Payton got seven 2nd place votes and Kemp had three 2nd place and six 3rd place votes. Guess that doesn't count, either, right?

In 1995, both Stockton and Malone received 1st and 2nd place votes. Let's disqualify that too because it doesn't fit TheFakeBullsFan's criteria.

In 1992, both Mullin and Hardaway received 2nd and 3rd place votes. Yup, let's disqualify that as well.

Being 9th doesn't qualify. Great. Now how many times did Pippen finish in the top 5? Just once. But we're supposed to hinge the entire argument on that? Amazing. And notice you can set that limitation, but no one else can set theirs.

You can't win with you, not because it's about winning, but because you create your own criteria that in some cases works against you. When others on this forum point it out, you switch parameters and then disqualify the previous argument, without actually addressing it.

How many MVP candidates were there in 2020? 2019? 2018? We know the answers. There are 2-3 legitimate MVP candidates each season. You will get 12-15 people who actually receive votes because each voter has to list 5 players and the 4th and especially 5th place votes will scatter (their beloved Kyrie has gotten 0 of these votes in his career BTW). When the media or fans discuss the MVP race, they don't discuss the 14 people who ultimately get votes. They talk about the 2-3 people with an actual case for winning the award.

Using the logic put forward here, DeRozan, Lowry, Draymond Green, and Dennis Rodman were all "MVP candidates." That isn't convenient for the agenda, doe. The very same poster touting 9th place MVP finishes was just days ago saying a player who finished top 10 in half a season was poor "help." So 9th over 82 games is awesome while finishing 10th in half a season is poor "help." :lol

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14170893]How many MVP candidates were there in 2020? 2019? 2018? We know the answers. There are 2-3 legitimate MVP candidates each season. You will get 12-15 people who actually receive votes because each voter has to list 5 players and the 4th and especially 5th place votes will scatter (their beloved Kyrie has gotten 0 of these votes in his career BTW). When the media or fans discuss the MVP race, they don't discuss the 14 people who ultimately get votes. They talk about the 2-3 people with an actual case for winning the award.

Using the logic put forward here, DeRozan, Lowry, Draymond Green, and Dennis Rodman were all "MVP candidates." That isn't convenient for the agenda, doe. The very same poster touting 9th place MVP finishes was just days ago saying a player who finished top 10 in half a season was poor "help." So 9th over 82 games is awesome while finishing 10th in half a season is poor "help." :lol[/QUOTE]

:facepalm:facepalm

[QUOTE]You can't win with you, not because it's about winning, but because you create your own criteria that in some cases works against you. When others on this forum point it out, you switch parameters and then disqualify the previous argument, without actually addressing it.[/QUOTE]

^^^

Good job mischaracterizing what I said Pippen's 1998 finals. Nothing unusual. Lemme know when you're finished misinterpreting and mischaracterizing what everyone says.

[quote]
[B]Stockton 1990: One 3rd place vote
Stockton 1991: One 3rd place vote (though finished 12th overall)[/B]
[B]Stockton 1995: One 1st place vote, two 2nd place votes, one 3rd place vote[/B]
[B]Stockton 1998: One 3rd place vote (though finishing 13th)[/B][/quote]
All of this with Karl Malone, who finished ~top 3-4 from 1990-1991. Top 3 in 1995 and #2 overall in 1998. Wow! No wonder that duo is considered one of the best. They just happened to be playing in a league dripping with talent.

[QUOTE=MadDog;14170945]All of this with Karl Malone, who finished ~top 3-4 from 1990-1991. Top 3 in 1995 and #2 overall in 1998. Wow! No wonder that duo is considered one of the best. They just happened to be playing in a league dripping with talent.[/QUOTE]

My point was to show TheFakeBullsFan that his original claim was not correct. He tried to say that the Bulls had two MVP candidates (didn't qualify this statement) every year.

The reality is that they didn't. Pippen finished 5th in 1996 and that was it. The rest of the years they played together, he got 0 first place votes in some years and in others got maybe 1. The same for 2nd place votes.

There was maybe one or two years where he received a first place vote, but TheFakeBullsFan wants to act like Pippen was up there with MJ, Malone, Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Ewing, Clyde, etc [I]while he played alongside MJ[/I].

When you address this, he jumps to a new argument about Stockton not getting any 1st-3rd place votes. Then that gets disproven. He then doesn't concede to it, instead jumps back to his original claim, this time qualifying what HE thinks is an MVP candidate and what that means for having a the only team with 2 guys that are.

The arguments keep changing. On top of it all, he'll accuse you of hating Pippen and lying about him for things that others on this forum say with regularity. It's unbelievable really.

[QUOTE]1991 had Magic, Worthy and Divac[/QUOTE]

Worthy was hurt during that series. And, I don't think that Divac is a HOF player.

[QUOTE=JBSptfn;14171938]Worthy was hurt during that series. And, I don't think that Divac is a HOF player.[/QUOTE]

Divac made it through international play. In the NBA he was a 1x all-star, an all-star selection he received a decade later. They are desperate, though, so you can see why they are pointing to him. Any guesses what they will say if Kukoc makes the HOF? :oldlol:

At any rate, from 1992-1998 they always had more HOF in the finals and ECF.

1992: Bulls 2, Cavs 0
1992: Bulls 2, Blazers 1
1993: Bulls 2, Knicks 1
1993: Bulls 2, Suns 1
1996: Bulls 3, Magic 1
1996: Bulls 3, Sonics 1
1997: Bulls 4, Heat 1
1997: Bulls 4, Jazz 2
1998: Bulls 3, Pacers 2
1998: Bulls 3, Jazz 2

Parish shouldn't count for the Bulls in 97' but neither should Mullin for the 98' Pacers when he was their 5th best player.

Here is another way to parse it, top 3 in MVP players:

1992: Bulls 2, Cavs 0
1992: Bulls 2, Blazers 1
1993: Bulls 2, Knicks 0
1993: Bulls 2, Suns 1
1996: Bulls 2, Magic 2
1996: Bulls 2, Sonics 1
1997: Bulls 2, Heat 1
1997: Bulls 2, Jazz 1
1998: Bulls 2, Pacers 0
1998: Bulls 2, Jazz 1