did mike always have maximum defense attention becos he cant pass?

[QUOTE=Baller789;14633179]What do you expect from a guy who lies about being rich and successful? :([/QUOTE]

Still thinking about my wealthy and successful life meanwhile disappointed in your own.

That's life. Deal with it.

[QUOTE=8Ball;14633299]I am always right on this forum.

Coaches that have won coach of the year: budenhozer popovich, dwyane casey, Thibodeau, Mike D'antoni, Scott brooks.

None of them double LeBron and ALL of them saying doubling LeBron is suicide after trying it for a few games.

Meanwhile dum retards on this forum will try to argue otherwise and fall flat on their faces.[/QUOTE]

Hows the picture if your flat I'm asking for And1Allday?

[QUOTE=3ba11;14633254]MJ made every kind of pass and play, including many passes and plays that Lebron can't make due to superior maneuverability amongst defenders... Literally goatt maneuverability and completely unmatched by anyone.[/QUOTE]

Making every kind of pass and play doesn't make you the better playmaker. What you're describing is shot creation, not playmaking. John Stockton couldn't do half of the things MJ could do in terms of maneuverability, including those maneuvers that enabled MJ to make certain passes. Yet Stockton was 10x the playmaker MJ was. His court vision was far better and he was able to execute plays at a better rate.

[QUOTE]And the 89' Bulls won more than the 08' Cavs and was arguably the greatest carry-job in history and the most upsets in the playoffs.. The difference between the 85-90' Bulls casts and Lebron's 04-10' casts is enormous..[/QUOTE]

But we're not discussing the 2008 Cavs, nor are we talking about the playoffs. We are discussing MJ's playmaking and what he was able to do in the final 25 games of the 1989 season as a PG.

[QUOTE]Heck, do you want to know why the 09' Cavs won more games then the 90' Bulls?.. It's because they had the #3 defense compared to #19 for the 90' Bulls, while Mo was superior to Pippen offensively across the board (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, scoring, efficiency).

So how do you explain Lebron having a better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles?... Jordan won the next year in 91', while Lebron lost as the massive favorite for 2 more years[/QUOTE]

You're moving the goal posts now. Address MJ as a PG in the 1989 season. What actually happened? I'll tell you for the third time, Chicago fell significantly. They dropped were 12th in ORTG with him as a SG and 18th with him as a PG. They averaged 106 PPG with him as a SG and 100 PPG with him as a PG. Their FG% dropped from 50% with him as a SG to 46.5% as a PG. These are facts. If you want to talk about anything, it should be impact. And offensively, MJ's playmaking as a PG was not as impactful.

[QUOTE=Johnny32;14633294]Read what i responded to, comprehend what i responded to, or stop wasting my time and go cry yourself to sleep thinking about your dead hero again.[/QUOTE]

You hate everyone outside of Lebron. MJ was never a one-dimensional chucker.

[img]https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-04-2022/_U1_et.gif[/img]


[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14633317]Making every kind of pass and play doesn't make you the better playmaker. What you're describing is shot creation, not playmaking. John Stockton couldn't do half of the things MJ could do in terms of maneuverability, including those maneuvers that enabled MJ to make certain passes. Yet Stockton was 10x the playmaker MJ was. His court vision was far better and he was able to execute plays at a better rate.



But we're not discussing the 2008 Cavs, nor are we talking about the playoffs. We are discussing MJ's playmaking and what he was able to do in the final 25 games of the 1989 season as a PG.



You're moving the goal posts now. Address MJ as a PG in the 1989 season. What actually happened? I'll tell you for the third time, Chicago fell significantly. They dropped were 12th in ORTG with him as a SG and 18th with him as a PG. They averaged 106 PPG with him as a SG and 100 PPG with him as a PG. Their FG% dropped from 50% with him as a SG to 46.5% as a PG. These are facts. If you want to talk about anything, it should be impact. And offensively, MJ's playmaking as a PG was not as impactful.[/QUOTE]


You're saying that playmaking = ball domination

Because that's what Stockton did... That's what Lebron does... They dominate the ball.

Similarly, Jordan played the playmaker role, but he just didn't do it ALL GAME like Stockton or Lebron... That's the only difference... Jordan's skills were more diverse so he could incorporate significant off-ball play that fit with teammates and allowed the best brand of ball (for the highest team ceilings/Finals records).

So that's what your simple thinking is confused about - Jordan didn't dominate the ball ALL GAME, so you conclude that he wasn't as good a playmaker.

But the facts tell the story - everyone said he was the best PG in the league when he played that position (see pic above).. The Bulls were 13-11 against teams that averaged 45 wins (playoff teams - the toughest part of their schedule).. That's excellent for a 1st time point guard and one of the worst casts in the league.. Jordan was a [U]first-time PG at 26 years old[/U] and was already a goat-level PG and the best PG in the league - that's GOAT TALENT..
For example, Lebron would be a horrible SG if he played the position.

Btw, Lebron entered the league with the East all-star center on his team - the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a 22/5/5 all-defender and future COY to make the 06' Playoffs as a veteran HIGH SEED - so Lebron never had a cast as bad as the 80's Bulls casts.

And everyone will have a better offense without ball-dominance, so it's no surprise that the Bulls were better with him at SG.. Jordan's offenses at SG were better than literally anyone ever and better than any PG offense - 115 ortg with goat margins above league average in 91', 92', 96' and 97'..

Bro Mj wasn't a pg, he was at the scorers table checking his numbers mid game ffs.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14633365][img]https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-04-2022/_U1_et.gif[/img]





You're saying that playmaking = ball domination

Because that's what Stockton did... That's what Lebron does... They dominate the ball.

Similarly, Jordan played the playmaker role, but he just didn't do it ALL GAME like Stockton or Lebron... That's the only difference... Jordan's skills were more diverse so he could incorporate significant off-ball play that fit with teammates and allowed the best brand of ball (for the highest team ceilings/Finals records).

So that's what your simple thinking is confused about - Jordan didn't dominate the ball ALL GAME, so you conclude that he wasn't as good a playmaker.

But the facts tell the story - everyone said he was the best PG in the league when he played that position (see pic above).. The Bulls were 13-11 against teams that averaged 45 wins (playoff teams - the toughest part of their schedule).. That's excellent for a 1st time point guard and one of the worst casts in the league.. Jordan was a [U]first-time PG at 26 years old[/U] and was already a goat-level PG and the best PG in the league - that's GOAT TALENT..
For example, Lebron would be a horrible SG if he played the position.

Btw, Lebron entered the league with the East all-star center on his team - the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a 22/5/5 all-defender and future COY to make the 06' Playoffs as a veteran HIGH SEED - so Lebron never had a cast as bad as the 80's Bulls casts.

And everyone will have a better offense without ball-dominance, so it's no surprise that the Bulls were better with him at SG.. Jordan's offenses at SG were better than literally anyone ever and better than any PG offense - 115 ortg with goat margins above league average in 91', 92', 96' and 97'..[/QUOTE]

This is filled with distortions, moving the goal posts, and cherry picking.

You're correct that being a ball dominator to the extent that guys like Iverson, McGrady, or even LeBron and Luka, [I]can[/I] be detrimental to the overall flow of an offense. It is obviously better to move the ball and create shots for teammates to keep defenses on their toes. No one disagrees with this.

But what you're doing in the same breath is operating as if this is the case all the time with great players like LeBron, Stockton, or Magic. This certainly cannot be said about Stockton or Magic. There's a reason why their teams remained as elite offenses throughout their tenures.

But you also cherry pick MJ's peak years, ignoring the triangle and the emergence of Scottie Pippen, who in many ways was as good if not a better playmaker than MJ.

You ignored the '89 numbers for Chicago when MJ played PG (which was a drastic drop off), then lets look at 1998? Yes, it was MJ's final year, but he was still very much in his prime.

Alonzo Mourning missed the first 22 games of that season for Miami. Similarly, Pippen was out during that same stretch. So how did MJ and Tim Hardaway perform and how did the Bulls and Heat perform as a result?

Chicago first 22 games '98: 101.2 ORTG (23rd ranking)
[B]Miami first 22 games '98: 110.5 ORTG (3rd ranking)[/B]

CHI first 38 games w/o Pippen '98: 105.0 ORTG (13th)
[B]CHI last 44 games w/o Pippen '98: 111.4 ORTG (4th)[/B]

What happened 3ball? Is Tim Hardaway THAT much better than MJ to run an offense?

Seems Pippen's impact is overlooked here. You're being stubborn in overrating MJ's playmaking abilities. He was good given what he had to work with, and his cast was not great, but even in 1998, he had Kukoc as a sidekick who didn't perform as well as he probably could have IF Jordan was as good of a playmaker as you say he was.

Kukoc became a full-time starter a week into the '98 season and in 27 games before Pippen's return, Kukoc averaged 15 PPG on 46% (40% from 3). What happened? MJ couldn't get Kukoc the ball? :lol

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14633454]This is filled with distortions, moving the goal posts, and cherry picking.

You're correct that being a ball dominator to the extent that guys like Iverson, McGrady, or even LeBron and Luka, [I]can[/I] be detrimental to the overall flow of an offense. It is obviously better to move the ball and create shots for teammates to keep defenses on their toes. No one disagrees with this.

But what you're doing in the same breath is operating as if this is the case all the time with great players like LeBron, Stockton, or Magic. This certainly cannot be said about Stockton or Magic. There's a reason why their teams remained as elite offenses throughout their tenures.

But you also cherry pick MJ's peak years, ignoring the triangle and the emergence of Scottie Pippen, who in many ways was as good if not a better playmaker than MJ.

You ignored the '89 numbers for Chicago when MJ played PG (which was a drastic drop off), then lets look at 1998? Yes, it was MJ's final year, but he was still very much in his prime.

Alonzo Mourning missed the first 22 games of that season for Miami. Similarly, Pippen was out during that same stretch. So how did MJ and Tim Hardaway perform and how did the Bulls and Heat perform as a result?

Chicago first 22 games '98: 101.2 ORTG (23rd ranking)
[B]Miami first 22 games '98: 110.5 ORTG (3rd ranking)[/B]

CHI first 38 games w/o Pippen '98: 105.0 ORTG (13th)
[B]CHI last 44 games w/o Pippen '98: 111.4 ORTG (4th)[/B]

What happened 3ball? Is Tim Hardaway THAT much better than MJ to run an offense?

Seems Pippen's impact is overlooked here. You're being stubborn in overrating MJ's playmaking abilities. He was good given what he had to work with, and his cast was not great, but even in 1998, he had Kukoc as a sidekick who didn't perform as well as he probably could have IF Jordan was as good of a playmaker as you say he was.

Kukoc became a full-time starter a week into the '98 season and in 27 games before Pippen's return, Kukoc averaged 15 PPG on 46% (40% from 3). What happened? MJ couldn't get Kukoc the ball? :lol[/QUOTE]


The Heat's entire cast was vastly superior offensively to the bums that the Bulls had, including playing 4 on 5 with Rodman.

Without any scoring help, Jordan made the Bulls a slow defensive team that kept it close until the end (where Jordan would close with his GOAT clutch-time stats - we have these stats for 97' and 98' - MJ's clutch was far superior to anyone in history, even at 35 years old).

And 15 ppg for Kukoc at 2nd option?.. That's playing to capacity for him

Furthermore, the 98' Bulls were the 1 seed without Pippen and won IN SPITE of pippen that year - Pippen was horrible all year

The only reason the 98' ECF was close was because Pippen was wetting the bed with 16 on 39% at high usage... Ditto for the Finals.. Anytime a series was close or lost, it was Pippen's poor play that caused it like the 90' ECF or 92' ECF and many more

[QUOTE=8Ball;14633300]Thread Cliffs:

Coaches that have won coach of the year: budenhozer popovich, dwyane casey, Thibodeau, Mike D'antoni, Scott brooks.

None of them double LeBron and ALL of them saying doubling LeBron is suicide after trying it for a few games.


8ball: 8
Team Dingus: 0[/QUOTE]

8Pauper's cliffs:

"I like to pretend I'm rich."

"I crave Bronie's nuttsack."

"I'm really dumb."

"I'm a butthurt dingus who can't win a single argument on an internet forum."

:roll:

[QUOTE=3ba11;14633493]The Heat's entire cast was vastly superior offensively to the bums that the Bulls had, including playing 4 on 5 with Rodman.

Without any scoring help, Jordan made the Bulls a slow defensive team that kept it close until the end (where Jordan would close with his GOAT clutch-time stats - we have these stats for 97' and 98' - MJ's clutch was far superior to anyone in history, even at 35 years old).

And 15 ppg for Kukoc at 2nd option?.. That's playing to capacity for him

Furthermore, the 98' Bulls were the 1 seed without Pippen and won IN SPITE of pippen that year - Pippen was horrible all year

The only reason the 98' ECF was close was because Pippen was wetting the bed with 16 on 39% at high usage... Ditto for the Finals.. Anytime a series was close or lost, it was Pippen's poor play that caused it like the 90' ECF or 92' ECF and many more[/QUOTE]

I'll give you the Heat cast being better than Chicago's offensively. But the difference is too drastic, which you're not admitting. Miami was 3rd in ORTG without Zo in the first 22 games whereas Chicago went from being 1st in ORTG in 1997 to 23rd in 1998 in the first 22 games. So who is the clear difference maker here? It ain't MJ. It's Scottie.

So we have two samples, one with MJ at PG in 1989, where Chicago's offense dropped with MJ being the primary playmaker. Could MJ have stacked up assists in his career? Sure, but it wouldn't have been the most optimal way of winning. This is what separates MJ from the pack; he used his elite scoring ability to break down defenses which yielded better results. MJ was a solid playmaker between 1988-93, but he wasn't on the level you're thinking.

[SIZE=3]Lebron was lottery with:[/SIZE]


[Indent][B]05' Zydrunas[/b].... 18/9 and 2.1 blk.. 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. #12 team defense
[B]90' Pippen[/B]........ 16/7 and 1.2 blk.. 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48... #19 team defense[/indent]


[SIZE=3]^^^ Whereas MJ nearly beat the champs in 1990 with less help on both sides of the ball[/SIZE]


[B]09' Mo Will[/b]...'.... 17.2 PER.. 2.3 BPM.. 0.165 WS/48.. 3.1 VORP.... #3 team defense
[B]89' Pippen[/B]........ 14.9 PER.. 0.4 BPM.. 0.080 WS/48.. 1.5 VORP.. #11 team defense

[B]09' Cavs[/B]'..... #3 defense... 18 on 38% from Mo... lost to #4 SRS Magic (2 all-stars)
[B]89' Bulls[/B].... #11 defense... 15 on 40% from Pip... defeat #1 SRS Cavs' (3 all-stars)*


* plus Ron Harper (20/5/5)



[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14633894]I'll give you the Heat cast being better than Chicago's offensively. But the difference is too drastic, which you're not admitting. Miami was 3rd in ORTG without Zo in the first 22 games whereas Chicago went from being [B][SIZE=4]1st in ORTG in 1997[/SIZE][/B] to 23rd in 1998 in the first 22 games. So who is the clear difference maker here? It ain't MJ. It's Scottie.


[/Quote]


There's tons of examples of Lebron having a garbage team offense, yet you don't use that against him to say he wasn't a good playmaker.

Heck, you're talking about the Bulls' offense in 1997, which Lebron never matched in 20 years - so your logic says that Lebron's playmaking skills are garbage compared to Paxson, MJ or Pippen, who shared the playmaking duties (MJ led in assists for nearly every playoff run, including 3 title runs).

Ultimately, it's hard to claim that Lebron's playmaking is better when his offenses are much worse despite more offensive help.

So again, Lebron wasn't a better playmaker, hence Jordan's higher assists for the first 9 years of their playoff careers, along with higher team offenses, lower turnovers, and more winning..




[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14633894]

So we have two samples, one with MJ at PG in 1989, where Chicago's offense dropped with MJ being the primary playmaker. Could MJ have stacked up assists in his career? Sure, but it wouldn't have been the most optimal way of winning. This is what separates MJ from the pack; he used his elite scoring ability to break down defenses which yielded better results. MJ was a solid playmaker between 1988-93, but he wasn't on the level you're thinking.[/QUOTE]


Jordan's point guard stint in 89' was against the toughest part of their schedule where the teams during that stretch averaged 45 wins.. This explains the offensive drop-off along with the Bulls simply transitioning to a ball-dominant offense, which is inherently inferior to a more ball movement approach..

You don't seem to understand that the 90' Bulls had the #19 defense and [U]much[/U] less offensive help than Lebron ever had - so it was a worse cast than Lebron's worst lottery teams in 05', 19' or 22'... Again, the 90' Bulls had a much worse defense (19th), while Pippen had lower stats than Mo Williams or Zydrunas across the board (less offensive help).. 05' Hughes actually demolishes Pippen the most (before he arrived on the Cavs).. So Lebron's worst teams had better help on both sides of the ball than the 89' or 90' Bulls - aka don't tell me Lebron would've had a better team or offense because he had worse teams despite more help.



[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14633894]

it wouldn't have been the most optimal way of winning. .[/QUOTE]


Ball-domination NEVER is

Btw, Jordan was actually thrown into the Playoffs as an 8 seed in Year 1, while Lebron got 3 years to develop his team into a veteran high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs.. The all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY to make the 06' Playoffs, which is a comparable cast to anything Jordan ever had

With minimal offensive help, MJ had the #1 offense of all-time in 91', 92', 96', and 97' based on the 115 ortg and the margin above league average.. Lebron couldn't do that with Pippen because he had better offensive help but yielded worse offenses.. So your thinking on this is distorted - MJ carried Pippen to those great offenses - Pippen's production wasn't elite or dominant

[QUOTE=3ba11;14634118][SIZE=3]Lebron was lottery with:[/SIZE]


[Indent][B]05' Zydrunas[/b].... 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. -0.2 BPM.. 1.2 VORP.. #12 team defense
[B]90' Pippen[/B]........ 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48... 1.8 BPM.. 3.0 VORP.. #19 team defense[/indent]


[SIZE=3]^^^ Whereas MJ nearly beat the champs in 1990 with less help on both sides of the ball[/SIZE]


[B]09' Mo Will[/b]...'.... 17.2 PER.. 2.3 BPM.. 0.165 WS/48.. 3.1 VORP.... #3 team defense
[B]89' Pippen[/B]........ 14.9 PER.. 0.4 BPM.. 0.080 WS/48.. 1.5 VORP.. #11 team defense

[B]09' Cavs[/B]'..... #3 defense... 18 on 38% from Mo... lost to #4 SRS Magic (2 all-stars)
[B]89' Bulls[/B].... #11 defense... 15 on 40% from Pip... defeat #1 SRS Cavs' (3 all-stars)*


* plus Ron Harper (20/5/5)






There's tons of examples of Lebron having a garbage team offense, yet you don't use that against him to say he wasn't a good playmaker.

Heck, you're talking about the Bulls' offense in 1997, which Lebron never matched in 20 years - so your logic says that Lebron's playmaking skills are garbage compared to Paxson, MJ or Pippen, who shared the playmaking duties (MJ led in assists for nearly every playoff run, including 3 title runs).

Ultimately, it's hard to claim that Lebron's playmaking is better when his offenses are much worse despite more offensive help.

So again, Lebron wasn't a better playmaker, hence Jordan's higher assists for the first 9 years of their playoff careers, along with higher team offenses, lower turnovers, and more winning..







Jordan's point guard stint in 89' was against the toughest part of their schedule where the teams during that stretch averaged 45 wins.. This explains the offensive drop-off along with the Bulls simply transitioning to a ball-dominant offense, which is inherently inferior to a more ball movement approach..

You don't seem to understand that the 90' Bulls had the #19 defense and [U]much[/U] less offensive help than Lebron ever had - so it was a worse cast than Lebron's worst lottery teams in 05', 19' or 22'... Again, the 90' Bulls had a much worse defense (19th), while Pippen had lower stats than Mo Williams or Zydrunas across the board (less offensive help).. 05' Hughes actually demolishes Pippen the most (before he arrived on the Cavs).. So Lebron's worst teams had better help on both sides of the ball than the 89' or 90' Bulls - aka don't tell me Lebron would've had a better team or offense because he had worse teams despite more help.






Ball-domination NEVER is

Btw, Jordan was actually thrown into the Playoffs as an 8 seed in Year 1, while Lebron got 3 years to develop his team into a veteran high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs.. The all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY to make the 06' Playoffs, which is a comparable cast to anything Jordan ever had

With minimal offensive help, MJ had the #1 offense of all-time in 91', 92', 96', and 97' based on the 115 ortg and the margin above league average.. Lebron couldn't do that with Pippen because he had better offensive help but yielded worse offenses.. So your thinking on this is distorted - MJ carried Pippen to those great offenses - Pippen's production wasn't elite or dominant[/QUOTE]

you already lost the moment that you started your post with mo williams vs scottie pippen


remember how you used to argue that mo williams is more talented than pippen?




pippen led the bulls to 55-wins without baldan :roll:


how many games did mo williams win without the GOAT? surely at least 50, right? :roll:

baldan would have zero rings if he played with mo williams as his second option for his career :roll:



you used to argue that mj would win [B]the same number of rings (6 rings)[/B] by molding mo williams into a champion the way mj molded pippen into a champion - you're smoking crack cocaine if you think mo williams is ever winning a ring on [B]ANY[/B] team as a second option. :roll:

that's how I know for a fact that you lost 3ball and how I know for a fact that lebron is the GOAT - he exceeded every expectation and every fake argument that you ever threw at him :roll:


meanwhile baldan himself doesnt even [B]COME CLOSE[/B] to meeting the irrational criteria that you, skip, and all of the other old-head MJ-loving lebron-hating stans threw at the GOAT (leGOAT).


baldan's career isnt NEARLY as impressive as you and skip seem to think it is

[QUOTE=red1;14634130]baldan would have zero rings if he played with mo williams as his second option for his career :roll:



you used to argue that mj would win [B]the same number of rings (6 rings)[/B] by molding mo williams into a champion the way mj molded pippen into a champion - you're smoking crack cocaine if you think mo williams is ever winning a ring on [B]ANY[/B] team as a second option. :roll:[/QUOTE]


Lebron had the #3 team defense and got 18 on 38% from Mo, yet he lost as a massive favorite to a 1-star opponent in 2009 ECF

Otoh, Jordan never lost with a top 10 defense and 18 on 38% from Pippen

Jordan could beat Finals teams while defeating maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load), while Lebron can't due to insufficient jumpshooting skill and brand of ball