Dennis Rodman: How good was he actually at his best?

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;14965171]Rodman vs Grant
From 91-93 Grant played in 236 of 246 games
From 96-98 Rodman played in 199 of 246 games.

91-93 Bulls won 185 games total
96-98 Bulls won 203 games total.[/QUOTE]

This would be a relevant comparison if the 91-93 and 96-98 leagues were the same, but I'm sure you know that's not the case. 35 year old MJ was able to lead the 98 Bulls to 62 wins with Pippen missing half the year and Rodman dipping in and out of the lineup going to Vegas or playing part-time NWO member with Hulk Hogan. That says alot more about the state of the league in 98 than the point you're attempting to make about Rodmans impact on their W/L vs Grant. The 91 Bulls played in a more talented league pre- Canadian expansion with prime dream team era stars including Jordan himself at his peak, and won 61 games.

Now, about to make myself some egg nog with spiced ginger whiskey.

Dale Davis was a comparable player to Rodman.

Horace Grant was better than both.

[QUOTE=iamgine;14965181]Dale Davis was a comparable player to Rodman.

Horace Grant was better than both.[/QUOTE]

shut the **** up haha

-Smak

[QUOTE=ILLsmak;14965185]shut the **** up haha

-Smak[/QUOTE]

The only appropriate response to such nonsense.

Rodman was a goat level defensive talent no doubt but did he really play at that level during the years they won it all? Comparing Bulls Rodman to the other top tier enforcers like Oakley, Mason, Davis Boys etc is not unreasonable at all

[QUOTE=Reggie43;14965307]Rodman was a goat level defensive talent no doubt but did he really play at that level during the years they won it all? Comparing Bulls Rodman to the other top tier enforcers like Oakley, Mason, Davis Boys etc is not unreasonable at all[/QUOTE]

It's a fair point to ask how good those other players would look with MJ, Pip and Phil Jackson.

People have come to think that you absolutely need a Rodman type player for the system to work, but that was never the case. Rodman did work well because he was a good passer and smart basketball player, but his rebounding was better than Dale Davis, but how much value does 4-5 extra rebounds have compared to Dale Davis superior rim protection and scoring?

[QUOTE=Reggie43;14965307]Rodman was a goat level defensive talent no doubt but did he really play at that level during the years they won it all? Comparing Bulls Rodman to the other top tier enforcers like Oakley, Mason, Davis Boys etc is not unreasonable at all[/QUOTE]

Comparing Detroit or San Antonio Rodman is also not unreasonable. He's a good role player but that's about it.

Dale Davis and his superior rim protection and scoring?

He averaged 1 block and 10, 8 and 8 ppg in Bulls last three peat

What is going on here?

[video=youtube;aaLy6Tsgwxg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaLy6Tsgwxg&ab_channel=BBVExtra[/video]
[video=youtube;NdZn8epqnKo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdZn8epqnKo&ab_channel=NobodyTouchesJordan[/video]

The way Rodman defended Shaq allowed the Bulls to stay home on the Magic shooters and not compromise their defense. He had tremendous lower body strength and center of gravity so Shaq couldn't easily back him down into scoring position, he either forced him into taking shots beyond his comfort zone or he'd have him taking extra dribbles to create something and the Bulls defenders like MJ, Pippen or Harper could swipe at the ball or disrupt Shaq's passing. Dale Davis was more of a typical enforcer type PF and he would have just played Shaq straight up and didn't have Rodmans defensive IQ, motor or leg strength to make it harder for Shaq.

Then you have series like against the Heat where Rodman would completely get into Mournings head, he knew he was easy to fukk with and would play mind games with him. There were simply things he did that took guys out of their comfort zones that don't necessarily show up on the box score.

By 98..ok...Rodman was like 37 and starting to become more trouble than he was worth then. But you aren't replacing 96 and 97 Rodman with Dale Davis.

Why would Dale Davis play Shaq straight up and not rely on his teammates? Its always weird to me how Rodman got all the credit in guarding Shaq when the team defense Pippen, Jordan, Harper etc provided was equally important.

The fun part was Shaq actually scored a fraction more while being more efficient and having more assists compared to his regular numbers while supposedly being "stopped"

[QUOTE=Carbine;14965349]Dale Davis and his superior rim protection and scoring?

He averaged 1 block and 10, 8 and 8 ppg in Bulls last three peat

What is going on here?[/QUOTE]

Got to look at the per 36 here.

[QUOTE=Reggie43;14965382]Why would Dale Davis play Shaq straight up and not rely on his teammates? Its always weird to me how Rodman got all the credit in guarding Shaq when the team defense Pippen, Jordan, Harper etc provided was equally important.

The fun part was Shaq actually scored a fraction more while being more efficient and having more assists compared to his regular numbers while supposedly being "stopped"[/QUOTE]

You made my point. Rodman alot of the time played Shaq straight up. Dale relying on his teammates means double teams, meaning Orlando's shooters are left open. During the 95 ECFs the Magic were 45% on 3s against the Pacers. A year later against the Bulls, 25% on 3s. Orlando probably beats Chicago again if they shoot 45% 3s on high volume. The difference? Having someone defensively who can allow the perimeter defenders to stay home on the 3point shooters and not give up easy 2s to Shaq. If you don't understand the value of Rodman's individual defense there within the context of the team defense on the Magic, not sure what else to tell you.

The fun part when looking at statlines is going across the entire page and not just looking at the totals. Shaq averaged 26.6ppg during the season on 36mpg. He scored 27.1 in the 96 ECFs....on 42.5mpg. 7 more minutes to score 'a fraction more'. His efficiency was high because whenever he waa guarded by guys like Longley and Wennington, it was virtually a guaranteed score because the Bulls committed to as much single coverage as possible, and those two were, to coin Shaq's verbiage, BBQ chicken compared to Rodmans defensive efforts. The other funny part is before even looking at Shaqs stats that series, I was 99% sure his mpg were alot higher than the season and that little tidbit would be conveniently left out.

Rodman played Shaq straight up a lot of the time?

For fukk sakes go watch the series, or don't. At the very least watch the 2nd video I posted where the commentators are plainly talking about it. Doug Collins speaks to how despite Rodman only being 218 or whatever, he has a strong low base and can push Shaq out further and no double team. Rodman wasn't defending him all game, he obviously needed to be preserved for the rebounding he provided, but when he did defend Shaq it was typically straight up. The Bulls may have thrown some fake/weak doubles every so often to keep Shaq guessing, but its not possible if Rodman himself isn't able to hold his own and make it harder for Shaq to get deep scoring position.

This conversation is tedious.

Its just conversation bro dont take it too seriously but in regards to the topic I guess we just see it differently how the Bulls provide help defense for Rodman sometimes even before he catches the ball, somebody always within arms length to provide help and double team but if you see that as defending straight up a lot of the time we just have to agree to disagree