Jokic is the 4th best player of all time

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984821]You are saying that one aspect of offense is just as important as the whole category of defense [B]when defense is half the game.[/B] Prime example of how the importance of defense is underrated. Should Olajuwon get extra credit for averaging several more blocks or is that just one aspect of defense?[/QUOTE]

It's not half the game for an individual. A single player can impact the game much more offensively than defensively. Scoring 1 on 5 is theoretically possible to do over and over. Defending 1 on 5 is not. Particularly in today's game with the spacing. If you put Jokic in an era where all he's expected to do is body up the other team's center, nobody would notice his defense.

A multiple time DPOY in Toody is getting constantly roasted today because of how quickly the evolution of the game has made defensive centers a near non factor.

You're stating something factually wrong and nonsensical because you dont want to have to adjust your views. Now that I've deconstructed your basketball points logically, you'll have a defensive feminine cattitude and say something like generic like "Well I dont care about your idiotic takes."

Rinse and repeat.

Jokic's defense also isnt as bad as people think it is because they dont notice all the times his positioning/rotation prevents a basket. Simpler fans only notice blocks/direct contests. The Denver defense is always better with him on the court than without him. During their title run 'the metrics' had him on par with Giannis as a defender.

The problem is simple people trying to make statements about complex things. It's not a very good fit. And yet that never seems to stop them.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984824]Possible but someone would have had to assign the blocks in retrospect because Wilt, Russell and others played before blocks were counted as an official stat. That's why Olajuwon has the all-time record instead of one of those two.[/QUOTE]

The guy from the Sixers kept count, it just wasn't a stat until the season after Wilt retired.

[QUOTE=tpols;14984826]Jokics offensive capability is higher than Hakeems. Not only ìs he a better and more efficient scorer, his passing is so GOAT it elevates the team offense to elite rank where as Hakeem never did that.[/quote] Peak vs peak Jokic has a statistical edge in shooting %age but Olajuwon has a number of seasons where the scoring numbers are close and he was still shooting over 50%. And that's playing in a league where his only competition wasn't one guy in the other conference he only had to face once per year due to injury. With David Robinson and Dikembe Mutombo on him for 8 games a season plus having to deal with Ewing Zo and Shaq 2 games a year not including the playoffs Olajuwon's competition blows Jokic's away. Factoring in the playoffs, please give an example of Jokic going head-to-head with someone like Shaq. Never happened. You want to make a big deal over percentage points in the face of that?
[Quote]Ðenver Nuggets are 2nd best offense in the league right now. 1994 and 1995 peak Hakeem led the 15th and 7th ranked offenses which is mid for playoff team. He wasn't a great passer. Just a great 1v1 iso scorer. Being able to dime at Yolks level unlocks a totally different team ceiling.

And we've seen that over and over.[/QUOTE] Who cares about the rank of the offense when you are winning the championship? Here's something for you to look up and pretend you know about: who was the second star during Olajuwon's first championship run, and how many points did he average?

[QUOTE=Neal Romer;14984830]It's not half the game for an individual. A single player can impact the game much more offensively than defensively. Scoring 1 on 5 is theoretically possible to do over and over. Defending 1 on 5 is not. Particularly in today's game with the spacing. If you put Jokic in an era where all he's expected to do is body up the other team's center, nobody would notice his defense.

A multiple time DPOY in Toody is getting constantly roasted today because of how quickly the evolution of the game has made defensive centers a near non factor.

You're stating something factually wrong and nonsensical because you dont want to have to adjust your views. Now that I've deconstructed your basketball points logically, you'll have a defensive feminine cattitude and say something like generic like "Well I dont care about your idiotic takes."

Rinse and repeat.[/QUOTE]

Yea that's true also.

With the proliferation of the 3 pt shot the defensive impact of past great centers would be greatly diminished today from an individual perspective since back in their era there was like triple the offensive action in the paint. So being able to limit that yield tremendous defensive results. Isn't going to be the same with today's spacing and shooting.

Hakeems defense 30 feet out is nothing like what he provided at the rim or in the post. And that's what he would be facing today over and over. Still could dominate but it would take a hit dragging him out 30 feet every time instead of constant paint camping.

[QUOTE=Neal Romer;14984830]It's not half the game for an individual. A single player can impact the game much more offensively than defensively. Scoring 1 on 5 is theoretically possible to do over and over. Defending 1 on 5 is not. Particularly in today's game with the spacing. If you put Jokic in an era where all he's expected to do is body up the other team's center, nobody would notice his defense.[/quote] So you're argument is scoring 1 on 5 is possible... why don't you go find someone of something closer to average intelligence and have them try to debate for you. No, I'm not going to read the rest.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984835]Peak vs peak Jokic has a statistical edge in shooting %age but Olajuwon has a number of seasons where the scoring numbers are close and he was still shooting over 50%. [B]And that's playing in a league where his only competition wasn't one guy in the other conference he only had to face once per year due to injury.[/B] With David Robinson and Dikembe Mutombo on him for 8 games a season plus having to deal with Ewing Zo and Shaq 2 games a year not including the playoffs Olajuwon's competition blows Jokic's away. Factoring in the playoffs, please give an example of Jokic going head-to-head with someone like Shaq. Never happened. You want to make a big deal over percentage points in the face of that?
Who cares about the rank of the offense when you are winning the championship? Here's something for you to look up and pretend you know about: who was the second star during Olajuwon's first championship run, and how many points did he average?[/QUOTE]


So he hasnt feasted on Anthony Davis across multiple playoff series? He doesnt put multiply DPOY Toody in a body bag routinely?


My GOODNESS you are so... You're so........... errrrrrrrrgggggggggg, I'm not gonna be personally insulting. I'm not gonna insult anyone.

You are just.... [I]youre Real Men Wear Green. [/I]

When people hear that name, the things they think about... that's you! That's your life, your personality. When you look in the mirror, you see [I]Real Men Wear Green. [/I]

It's just crazy :lol

That wasnt techincally an insult. It's just a fact. [I]Youre Real Men Wear Green. [/I]

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984838]So you're argument is scoring 1 on 5 is possible... why don't you go find someone of something closer to average intelligence and have them try to debate for you. No, I'm not going to read the rest.[/QUOTE]

:lol


*DESPERATELY COVERS MOUTH TO KEEP FROM RETORTING*


FUUUUUUUUKKKKKKKKKKK


[I]Youre Real Men Wear Green![/I]


That should embarrass you so badly but I dont think youre smart enough to reali-


Fukkkkk. Nevermind! I wont say it. Youre just RMWG. That's all. Youre RMWG.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984]
Who cares about the rank of the offense when you are winning the championship?[/QUOTE]

Who cares about the rank of the offense a player leads when said player is arguably the greatest offensive player of all time?

[I]*Raises hand*[/I]

Seems kind of important. And the funny thing is I agree with you. Jokic won his Championship by leading super elite offense, and Hakeem won his by leading middle offenses but great defense.

Both won, but in different ways with great impact on each players side. Like I said before... it all evens out and they both had GOAT peaks.

[QUOTE=Neal Romer;14984839]So he hasnt feasted on Anthony Davis across multiple playoff series? He doesnt put multiply DPOY Toody in a body bag routinel[/QUOTE]He's 30 pins heavier than Davis who doesn't want to play center. You want to put Gobert on par with Ewing and Shaq? Whatever.

[QUOTE=Neal Romer;14984840]:lol


*DESPERATELY COVERS MOUTH TO KEEP FROM RETORTING*


FUUUUUUUUKKKKKKKKKKK


[I]Youre Real Men Wear Green![/I]


That should embarrass you so badly but I dont think youre smart enough to reali-


Fukkkkk. Nevermind! I wont say it. Youre just RMWG. That's all. Youre RMWG.[/QUOTE]

He is a character. :lol consistent too.

[QUOTE=tpols;14984842]Who cares about the rank of the offense a player leads when said player is arguably the greatest offensive player of all time?

[I]*Raises hand*[/I]

Seems kind of important. And the funny thing is I agree with you. Jokic won his Championship by leading super elite offense, and Hakeem won his by leading middle offenses but great defense.

Both won, but in different ways with great impact on each players side. Like I said before... it all evens out and they both had GOAT peaks.[/QUOTE] You didn't answer the question: That first championship, who was the Rockets' second scorer?

[QUOTE=tpols;14984842]Who cares about the rank of the offense a player leads when said player is arguably the greatest offensive player of all time?

[I]*Raises hand*[/I]

Seems kind of important. And the funny thing is I agree with you. Jokic won his Championship by leading super elite offense, and Hakeem won his by leading middle offenses but great defense.

Both won, but in different ways with great impact on each players side. Like I said before... it all evens out and they both had GOAT peaks.[/QUOTE]

Actually, the Rockets won with the grandfather of the offenses that win now. Using an elite scoring threat to create open 3s and having shooters on the floor at every other position at times. Once we address that, then we can also talk about the elite defense he anchored for them.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984845]You didn't answer the question: That first championship, who was the Rockets' second scorer?[/QUOTE]

He doesnt have a clue, he doesn't even know how the Rockets played then.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984845]You didn't answer the question: That first championship, who was the Rockets' second scorer?[/QUOTE]

No worse than the Knicks 2nd option in 1994 championship fight. Actually mightve been better given what John Starks did.

But that's besides the point. Hakeem played a long time in the NBA and never led offenses on the level that Jokic has been doing. And he didn't play with only bums. 1995 Clyde Drexler played like a HOFer on Houston when they won and he's one of the best guards ever.

It's OK to admit Jokic is a better offensive player than Hakeem my friend. It's like... a literal fact at this point with a mountain of evidence behind it.