Hoops Hype top 79 Greatest Players in NBA History list.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15022303]The reason Reggie is so fondly remembered, aside from all the heroics, is because he was so rare in his day. Most of the star players from that era had comps. Reggie was a real 1 of 1 during his day and a real X factor.

That combined with his fearlessness and clutch heroics put him over the top in a lot of people's minds. It's not like those Pacers teams were super stacked yet they were always competitive and in the mix. I remember Bill Simmons saying that even if Reggie wasn't the best player on the court, he always carried himself like the best player. I thought that was a great assessment. Reggie always made his presence felt.[/QUOTE]

Yep. This is all true and exactly why he tends to get overrated in the grand scheme of things.

In reality, was he ever a top 10 player in the league? Maybe one or two years, tops?

He gets mythologized more than a similar players for sure.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;15021915]Hi, its me again. Here to call you out on your anti-Shaq bullshit.

The problem isn't with your 'facts', it's the extreme conclusions. Nobody ignores your talking points, they're just hyper-critical and double standards in some cases. Those critiques you use against Shaq are legit criticisms for why he wouldn't be a viable GOAT candidate, not going to the ridiculous extremes of saying he's not even a top 20 player. You could nitpick any number of players for losing in situations they shouldn't have, being swept, not reaching some arbitrary number, or weren't great teammates/coachable. I could just as easily use your 'facts' to say that Hakeem never averaged 30 in a season, was a malcontent at one point until he committed to Islam, and had 5 first round exits in the 80s. At least when Shaq was getting swept, in 94 Indiana went to the ECFs, in 95 in the finals to Houston, in 96 to a GOAT level Bulls team, in 98 to a Utah team that made it to game 6 of the finals, and in 99 to a Spurs team that won the whole thing. Hakeem got bounced in the first round on 2 occasions to teams who didn't even make the conference finals that year, in 88 to Seattle,in 90 to the Lakers, both gentleman sweeps by the way. Oh, and as defending champion in 96 got swept out of the playoffs by the Sonics averaging 18ppg/10rpg on 52% TS( season average that year was 27ppg/11rpg on 56% TS, in case you were wondering about the drop-off). Game 1 he scored 6 points on 3/9 shooting, grabbed 4 rebounds and 1 block.

I could use as easily say Hakeem doesn't deserve to be top 15 and use the same 'I have a right to my opinion 'schtick' that you do ( I'm a Hakeem fan for the record, but I'm making a point). And it would be just as dumb and extreme an opinion, taking into account the totality of his career, and equally deserving of being called out on it.[/QUOTE]

I would be fine with saying Hakeem doesn't deserve to be in the top 15, I have him in my top 15 but that's my right. Saying well you know you are just looking at one player and not the other here's a single example I don't buy that. Also The Rockets went through a complete rebuild in the West, they moved on from two Hall of Famers and still made the finals twice. Hakeem might have never averaged 30PPG, but we don't define Hakeem as the most dominant player ever. And while it's true he had 5 first round exits...he was also only swept once in the 80's and once again in the 90's. Hakeem wasn't playing with four MVP's. Shaq lost to teams that made the ECF or won titles...I guess that's good for him. Shaq was also a huge flop in college. Hakeem made the final four every year with Houston...how many Final Fours do you think Shaq made? It's as many trips to the Sweet Sixteen and Elite Eight zero.

I don't care about first round exits or even failing to make the playoffs when you are playing on the same team for your career. I also don't care if you are in a bad situation Oscar, Pete, and Tiny were all great players on bad teams. Shaq was never on a bad team, he quit on good teams, he left title contenders. The only other players in NBA history to do that were Wilt, and Durant. Shaq also ruined teammates careers, he left Penny, Kobe and Abdul-Rauf high and dry. Happens with one guy sure shit happens, it happens three times with your first three teams.
Now you might say...well who cares about college you are just singling him out.


Kobe Bryant - DNP
Moses Malone - DNP
Lebron James - DNP
Dirk Nowitzki - DNP

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Three Time NCAA champion
Bill Russell - Two Time NCAA champion
Michael Jordan - NCAA champion
Magic Johnson - NCAA Champion
John Havlicek - NCAA Champion
George Mikan - National Champion (NIT)
Hakeem Oljauwon - Made the National Championsip
Larry Bird - Made the National Championsip
Jerry West - Made the National Championsip
Elgin Baylor - Made the National Championsip
Wilt Chamberlain - Made the National Championsip
Bob Pettit - Made the Final Four
Oscar Robertson - Made the Final Four
Steph Curry - Made the Elite Eight (at Davidson)
Tim Duncan - Made the Sweet Sixteen twice (at Wake Forrest)
Dr J - played for UMASS won the conference
John Stockton - played for Gonzaga never qualified

So...when looking at college...Shaq has one of the if not the worst career of them all.

Now let's look at post season sweeps...

Shaq - 6
Kareem - 3
Lebron - 3
Kobe - 3
Magic - 3
Moses - 3
Jordan - 2
Duncan - 2
Baylor - 1
Wilt - 1
Stockton - 1
Dirk - 1
Bird - 1
West - 1*(he got injured and only played 1 game)
Russell - 0
Mikan - 0
Pettit - 0
Havlicek - 0
Dr. J - 0
Oscar - 0
Curry - 0

[QUOTE=John8204;15022335]I would be fine with saying Hakeem doesn't deserve to be in the top 15, I have him in my top 15 but that's my right. Saying well you know you are just looking at one player and not the other here's a single example I don't buy that. Also The Rockets went through a complete rebuild in the West, they moved on from two Hall of Famers and still made the finals twice. Hakeem might have never averaged 30PPG, but we don't define Hakeem as the most dominant player ever. And while it's true he had 5 first round exits...he was also only swept once in the 80's and once again in the 90's. Hakeem wasn't playing with four MVP's. Shaq lost to teams that made the ECF or won titles...I guess that's good for him. Shaq was also a huge flop in college. Hakeem made the final four every year with Houston...how many Final Fours do you think Shaq made? It's as many trips to the Sweet Sixteen and Elite Eight zero.

I don't care about first round exits or even failing to make the playoffs when you are playing on the same team for your career. I also don't care if you are in a bad situation Oscar, Pete, and Tiny were all great players on bad teams. Shaq was never on a bad team, he quit on good teams, he left title contenders. The only other players in NBA history to do that were Wilt, and Durant. Shaq also ruined teammates careers, he left Penny, Kobe and Abdul-Rauf high and dry. Happens with one guy sure shit happens, it happens three times with your first three teams.
Now you might say...well who cares about college you are just singling him out.


[/QUOTE]

Nobody cares about your 'right' to your opinion. We all have that but you're the only person here who makes a point of saying 'well that's just my opinion man!'. You sound like some boomer who just discovered the internet and needs to clarify every opinion you make as 'its my right' whenever you are challenged. You can also go look in a mirror and talk to yourself and avoid discourse but on here, like you know....every message board on the internet....you're gonna be called on your takes and 'it's my right' ain't a conversation killer. We're just getting started.

You say the Rockets went through a rebuild and still made the finals, and that Shaq was never on a bad team. Hilarious. The Magic won 21 games in 1992. He joins the team and singularly adds 20 wins to them. He wasn't on a 'bad' team because his presence alone made them 'not bad'. Add Penny Hardaway and they're in the finals 2 years later. Shaq has more of an excuse being swept in 95 as a young player on an up and coming team, especially after the Nick Anderson debacle, than Hakeem does getting swept as defending champion with the same team that won the year before. The Lakers team Shaq joined in 96 wasn't anything special. They won 50+ games but were getting bounced in the first round. Shaq joins and they're a conference finals team within 2 years and a champion in 4. Same for the Heat, Miami won 42 games in 2004. Shaq joins and they're a 59 win team( of course, Wade became a star in his 2nd year but we also know that Wade by himself couldn't get the Heat over 50 wins as 2009 and 2010 demonstrated) and champion within 2 years. Shaq had a good 14 year period where his presence alone vaulted a team into contention, and none of the teams were particularly good until his arrival.

Yes, it is 'good for him' that when he was swept it was to teams that either made the finals( 94 Pacers) or won the title ( 95 Rockets, 96 Bulls, 99 Spurs). Is it good to be swept in general? Obviously not, but add context. He was on worse teams and lost to teams that went deep or won a title. Hakeem on more than one occasion lost to teams that didn't even make the conference finals. Yes, I would say that Shaq should have been 'dominant' enough to have not gotten swept those series but again, those are talking points if someone wanted to argue he's not the most dominant, or not be top 10, not going to the extreme retard opinion that he's not even top 20. THAT's the point I'm making.

Also, just as you can say you don't care about Hakeem's first round losses, I can equally not care about what Shaq did in college. First, after his freshman year when he had Chris Jackson, who was on his teams for his sophomore and junior years? And then you compare it to Hakeem making the final four, show me the Clyde Drexler equivalent on Shaq's LSU teams? Because we know what Shaq can do with a single star guard. Hakeem wasn't even his teams leading scorer his final year in college, Michael Young was. Did you note that in your information hunt? Is any of that to discredit Dream? Not at all. It's to show what you nitpick about but also the context you seem to conveniently omit.

Here's the facts: Shaq is a ROTY, 4 time champion, MVP, 3 times finals MVP, 15 time all-star, 2 time scoring champion,14 time all-NBA, 3 time all defensive. There are neither 20 players better than him in general, nor 20 better resumes, to conclude he's not a top 20 player. There's just no basis in reality for it and your little nitpicks and grievances are irrelevant when it comes to how these things are generally measured. Yes, 'you're entitled to your opinion', and I'm as entitled to say your opinion is a shitty contrarian take at best and blatant trolling at worst.

What happened to the Magic when Shaq left. Year after year they won 40 games. They were an expansion team that built themselves up and Shaq could have won a title or two with the team and kept his false identity as the most dominant player of all-time. But Shaq didn't do that he played out his contract and left a 60 win team high and dry.

You say well you care so much about Hakeem losing in the first round. How many of those years did he draw Magic and Stockton? Shaq won a game against John Stockton in the post season. How many MVP's did Hakeem play with...1 Barkley at the end of his career. Shaq had Kobe, Nash, Lebron, KG, Malone in addition to Wade and Payton then you have this entire other tier with Eddie Jones, Penny Hardaway, Amare Stoudamire, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Rajan Rondo, Alonzo Mourning, Mitch Richmond, Dennis Rodman, Horace Grant...

Then you say well Hakeem was only the 2nd option for one of his three NCAA title runs...yeah and he was the 6th man for the other and 1 option for another. That's called versatility, greats can play with other greats. But even if they don't they still have some success. Dr. J won his conference tournaments Shaq was one and done in his conference tournaments. I don't know what other all-time great was that bad for multiple seasons in college. But I am going to look it up though.

Hakeem also and this is important to remind you...swept Shaq in the finals. It's easy to use Clyde Drexler as an excuse because well Clydes a star. Last time I checked Clyde finished 2nd once in an MVP race and Penny finished 3rd in another year. Clyde was more successful than Penny and had a longer career but Penny wasn't some scrub. And really what great team did ever beat to win a title.

[QUOTE=John8204;15022440]What happened to the Magic when Shaq left. Year after year they won 40 games. They were an expansion team that built themselves up and Shaq could have won a title or two with the team and kept his false identity as the most dominant player of all-time. But Shaq didn't do that he played out his contract and left a 60 win team high and dry.

You say well you care so much about Hakeem losing in the first round. How many of those years did he draw Magic and Stockton? Shaq won a game against John Stockton in the post season. How many MVP's did Hakeem play with...1 Barkley at the end of his career. [B]Shaq had Kobe, Nash, Lebron, KG, Malone in addition to Wade and Payton then you have this entire other tier with Eddie Jones, Penny Hardaway, Amare Stoudamire, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Rajan Rondo, Alonzo Mourning, Mitch Richmond, Dennis Rodman, Horace Grant...[/B]
Then you say well Hakeem was only the 2nd option for one of his three NCAA title runs...yeah and he was the 6th man for the other and 1 option for another. That's called versatility, greats can play with other greats. But even if they don't they still have some success. Dr. J won his conference tournaments Shaq was one and done in his conference tournaments. I don't know what other all-time great was that bad for multiple seasons in college. But I am going to look it up though.

Hakeem also and this is important to remind you...swept Shaq in the finals. It's easy to use Clyde Drexler as an excuse because well Clydes a star. Last time I checked Clyde finished 2nd once in an MVP race and Penny finished 3rd in another year. Clyde was more successful than Penny and had a longer career but Penny wasn't some scrub. And really what great team did ever beat to win a title.[/QUOTE]
Phoenix, the bold alone should tell you you should know better than to try to have a legitimate discussion with this dude and that he's a complete troll :lol

[QUOTE=John8204;15022440]What happened to the Magic when Shaq left. Year after year they won 40 games. They were an expansion team that built themselves up and Shaq could have won a title or two with the team and kept his false identity as the most dominant player of all-time. But Shaq didn't do that he played out his contract and left a 60 win team high and dry.

You say well you care so much about Hakeem losing in the first round. How many of those years did he draw Magic and Stockton? Shaq won a game against John Stockton in the post season. How many MVP's did Hakeem play with...1 Barkley at the end of his career. Shaq had Kobe, Nash, Lebron, KG, Malone in addition to Wade and Payton then you have this entire other tier with Eddie Jones, Penny Hardaway, Amare Stoudamire, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Rajan Rondo, Alonzo Mourning, Mitch Richmond, Dennis Rodman, Horace Grant...

Then you say well Hakeem was only the 2nd option for one of his three NCAA title runs...yeah and he was the 6th man for the other and 1 option for another. That's called versatility, greats can play with other greats. But even if they don't they still have some success. Dr. J won his conference tournaments Shaq was one and done in his conference tournaments. I don't know what other all-time great was that bad for multiple seasons in college. But I am going to look it up though.

Hakeem also and this is important to remind you...swept Shaq in the finals. It's easy to use Clyde Drexler as an excuse because well Clydes a star. Last time I checked Clyde finished 2nd once in an MVP race and Penny finished 3rd in another year. Clyde was more successful than Penny and had a longer career but Penny wasn't some scrub. And really what great team did ever beat to win a title.[/QUOTE]

I'm gonna play your game. I don't care about any of this shit, its meaningless gripes. You can't argue for 20 players on the court being better nor could you pick out 20 better resumes. How he went about his career as far as leaving teams or whatever is your little bitch fest of issues. Honestly I skimmed over most of your post because I already know its bullshit. His resume supersedes all of that nonsense, that's why he's generally recognized as a top 10 GOAT. Your extreme minority ' I have a right to my opinion' view is sufficiently outside of the norm as to not be taken seriously by anyone with a modicum of basketball knowledge.

Actually the Rockets swept the Magic, not Hakeem swept Shaq. Or should I say..Gary Payton swept Hakeem in 96? We can go that route if you like. And it's important to remind you that you're talking about peak Hakeem vs third year Shaq. In fact Shaq played Hakeem better than Ewing and Robinson did in that period, at [B]23[/B]. Hakeem losing 5 times in his first 8 years may actually be worse because the 80s west was weaker than the 90s east. And for the record, I specifically said I DON'T hold those talking points against Hakeem because I assess, like most non-agenda people, what he did at his best and his overall career. I said earlier that I'm making the point about nitpicking, not to discredit Hakeem.

You names-dropped a bunch of guys that you were all at different stages of their career, and you know that. The players that were ACTUALLY MVP level when Shaq HIMSELF was MVP level or prime? With Penny in 96, with Kobe in 2001-2003, and Wade in 2006. This would be like me saying Hakeem played with Vince Carter in 2001 and be intellectually dishonest enough to act like he was in his prime. Or saying Hakeem had Barkley and Pippen in 99 and act like they weren't light years past their best. That's the dumb shit you're doing saying Shaq played with KG, Pierce, Ray Allen etc as if Shaq wasn't like 40 by then and KG hadn't been MVP level in like 4 years. Or playing with Lebron when he was like 37,38? 37 year old past prime Horace Grant? 37 year old Mitch Richmond? You're seriously typing this shit with a straight face?

I'll go with SBT's take. You're a troll, and not even a particularly clever one. There are some who've passed through these virtual halls who were at least endearing enough to be charming. You're more akin to a splinter in a nutscak, which frankly may be less annoying.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15022443]Phoenix, the bold alone should tell you you should know better than to try to have a legitimate discussion with this dude and that he's a complete troll :lol[/QUOTE]

This dude typed that out with a straight face to suggest all those guys were MVP types( either in general or when Shaq was playing with them). Half of those names were role players when he played with them, or he himself was a role player by then, or they were never MVP level. Dude just casually dropped Eddie Jones( who was nice) in a post talking about MVPs. Or Rondo, who was 10th in MVP voting when Shaq was in his last season at 39. Like I said, not even good trolling FFS.