when are we getting our billions back from the welfare whores in ukraine and israel?

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15026946]Really strange way to twist this argument..

What does what "America" thinks have to do with my personal opinion on this? I believe it's a poor decision.[/QUOTE]

Well I'm sorry you feel that way, but once again you're not addressing the original point you were trying to make.

I asked you if the U.S. and Israel should have sat back and let Iran get their hands on a nuke. You said that America should have sat back, while at the same time saying that Israel was free to do whatever they want. That means you're okay with Israel attempting to disarm Iran.

So you're okay with disarming Iran, you just don't want America to be the one to do it. Why? What's the difference? The end goal is the same, only we were able to do it far more efficiently. Not only that, our involvement backs Iran into more of a corner.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15026948]Well I'm sorry you feel that way, but once again you're not addressing the original point you were trying to make.

I asked you if the U.S. and Israel should have sat back and let Iran get their hands on a nuke. You said that America should have sat back, while at the same time saying that Israel was free to do whatever they want. That means you're okay with Israel attempting to disarm Iran.

So you're okay with disarming Iran, you just don't want America to be the one to do it. Why? What's the difference? The end goal is the same, only we were able to do it far more efficiently. Not only that, our involvement backs Iran into more of a corner.[/QUOTE]

You're taking so many leaps here unnecessarily.

[QUOTE]you just don't want America to be the one to do it. Why?[/QUOTE]

Because I think it's a poor decision in general. To continue spending loads of money and create further hatred and unrest unnecessarily.

Since you're so hung up on the "rights" thing: I grant Israel the right to make these poor decisions...for themselves.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15026949]You're taking so many leaps here unnecessarily.



Because I think it's a poor decision in general. To continue spending loads of money and create further hatred and unrest unnecessarily.

Since you're so hung up on the "rights" thing: I grant Israel the right to make these poor decisions...for themselves.[/QUOTE]

So disarming Iran was a poor decision? Yes or no.

I already know you're going to try and pose some type of circular argument, but this is essentially what you're saying. You're saying that both America and Israel should have just rolled the dice, not gotten involved and let Iran do as they please. "If they get a nuke, oh well."

to answer op's question, right around the same time that jeff upgrades the servers.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15026909]Uh, we have countless money invested in Israel. We're basically their parent company. We have nothing to gain if they are wiped off the map and the other more radical countries take total control of the region. As we speak Trump is trying to help establish a new order in the middle east and unfortunately Iran under current management makes that harder to achieve. We don't want them having a say.

As for Israel secretly being in control of our government, honestly I don't even think you guys know what you're saying anymore. The story has changed so many times I've lost count and that's just in the last few months alone. Not long ago you guys swore up and down that American soldiers were going to be forced to die on Israel's behalf and that WW3 was on the horizon. What do you know, that didn't happen.

Also I'm just really skeptical of any person that unironically uses the word "zionist" as a derogatory term. Like I said it's no different than referring to Americans as "colonizers". It's rooted in the same resentment.[/QUOTE]

this is where you're failing to see the forest for the trees but i don't think you even want to hear it. follow the money. trump isn't running policy in the middle east - he's being dog-walked by the israeli government. and to be fair, so has [I]every[/I] president. follow the money and observe the subsequent action. it's no "secret", as you say and it's no different than how corporate capture works. pharmaceutical company X donates X amount of $ to said senator and you know the rest. if you can't piece this very basic puzzle together then you're either being willingly ignorant or i give you way too much credit in your problem solving abilities. if you need something to jump-start you on this jstern's recent thread should be enough to do so. btw of which i see you wanted no part of. trump isn't your god but you just can't bring yourself to hold him to account when it's easiest to do so. just can't seem to lend yourself that easy credibility.

look, trump ran on an anti-war/america-first platform. yet all we're continuing to get is the biden policy of more war in ukraine and more facilitating of mass murder and expulsion of brown people in gaza. yeah, right right... the tired argument of hamas and hostages, yada yada. i'm not buying it anymore and neither should you. maga isn't buying it anymore. and to be completely honest i don't think you do either. i mean, you don't buy into any of the other bullshit out there but when it comes to israel you just throw your hands up in helpless ignorance? just can't connect the dots all of a sudden? no, you know what's going on. you just don't want to have to defend it. if you love israel as much as i think you do, you'd be wise to consider that this isn't going to be good for them in the long run.

but if israel wants to run roughshod over those people and take their land over some ridiculous biblical prophecy, then i certainly don't agree with it but let them do it on their own accord. not with my tax dollars, not on my moral compass. america should have no hand in it. [U]not in our interests[/U]. if you support these things then that's fine but come out and say it. but don't turn around and claim to be america first because you ain't no matter how much you try and twist it.

There are too many p*ssies out there. Boohoo we don't want Iran getting nuclear weapons because it will be bad for us boohoo. Boohoo they don't like us boohoo, this is why it's bad for us boohoo

Just admit that we're Israel's bitch. We fund their healthcare when we can't even get ours right. We fund their war mongering in the area because we're their bitches. Just be straight with everyone.

[QUOTE=diamenz;15026969]this is where you're failing to see the forest for the trees but i don't think you even want to hear it. follow the money. trump isn't running policy in the middle east - he's being dog-walked by the israeli government. and to be fair, so has [I]every[/I] president. follow the money and observe the subsequent action. it's no "secret", as you say and it's no different than how corporate capture works. pharmaceutical company X donates X amount of $ to said senator and you know the rest. if you can't piece this very basic puzzle together then you're either being willingly ignorant or i give you way too much credit in your problem solving abilities. if you need something to jump-start you on this jstern's recent thread should be enough to do so. btw of which i see you wanted no part of. trump isn't your god but you just can't bring yourself to hold him to account when it's easiest to do so. just can't seem to lend yourself that easy credibility.

look, trump ran on an anti-war/america-first platform. yet all we're continuing to get is the biden policy of more war in ukraine and more facilitating of mass murder and expulsion of brown people in gaza. yeah, right right... the tired argument of hamas and hostages, yada yada. i'm not buying it anymore and neither should you. maga isn't buying it anymore. and to be completely honest i don't think you do either. i mean, you don't buy into any of the other bullshit out there but when it comes to israel you just throw your hands up in helpless ignorance? just can't connect the dots all of a sudden? no, you know what's going on. you just don't want to have to defend it. if you love israel as much as i think you do, you'd be wise to consider that this isn't going to be good for them in the long run.

but if israel wants to run roughshod over those people and take their land over some ridiculous biblical prophecy, then i certainly don't agree with it but let them do it on their own accord. not with my tax dollars, not on my moral compass. america should have no hand in it. [U]not in our interests[/U]. if you support these things then that's fine but come out and say it. but don't turn around and claim to be america first because you ain't no matter how much you try and twist it.[/QUOTE]

Biblical prophecy? Wtf are you talking about? You think Netanyahu gives a shit? This is about business, always has been. And to a lesser degree peace and prosperity.

And please, stop saying that Iran becoming a nuclear superpower is in our interests. No it's fukking not. You shouldn't need Israel to convince you of that. And more importantly, stop pretending you give a fukk. You're an american and you want american prosperity just like everyone else. Not sure how introducing another nuclear power into the fray helps us achieve that, let alone one that is ruled by radical islamists whose way of life is totally incompatible with ours. A country that is both tough to get along with and also do business with. None of the forward thinking countries in the region want it either. They are sympathetic to the west and want to do business with the west.

This nonsense about Israel being some grand puppet master is pure insanity honestly. They do not have blackmail on EVERYONE in the government. The level of influence you are hinting at would require asinine levels of conspiracy and secrecy, and it would probably have to include hundreds if not thousands of people. Not to mention decades upon decades of careful precision planning down to the most perfect detail. Contingency plans upon contingency plans spanning into infinity. For the last time, JEWS are not magical wizards!

America and Israel's interests are aligned because they just are. Because our countries and our people are motivated and driven by the same things. Obviously I'm not saying Israel can be trusted 100%, they are their own country of course and will look out for themselves at the end of the day, but that doesn't mean they can't be an invaluable business partner. Israel did major fukking damage in that attack. Intel up the ass. Took out all their top people with exploding beepers and shit. So whether it was their money or our money, fact is shit got done. Mission accomplished. Couldn't have been done without them.

Never thought I would see a woke right, but here we are.

[QUOTE=imdaman99;15026977]There are too many p*ssies out there. Boohoo we don't want Iran getting nuclear weapons because it will be bad for us boohoo. Boohoo they don't like us boohoo, this is why it's bad for us boohoo

Just admit that we're Israel's bitch. We fund their healthcare when we can't even get ours right. We fund their war mongering in the area because we're their bitches. Just be straight with everyone.[/QUOTE]

Great argument. If you don't want Iran to have a nuclear weapon, it's because you're a pu$$y.

Very sound logic. Point for the "anti-Israel" team I guess.

:oldlol:

[QUOTE=Baller234;15026951]So disarming Iran was a poor decision? Yes or no.

I already know you're going to try and pose some type of circular argument, but this is essentially what you're saying. You're saying that both America and Israel should have just rolled the dice, not gotten involved and let Iran do as they please. "If they get a nuke, oh well."[/QUOTE]

Circular argument? Hmm. Could it just appear that way to you? I’ve already made my full argument and you continue to rip strawman after strawman.

Maybe you’ve missed something that I’ve said? Don’t really feel like continuing to repeat myself.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15026991]Biblical prophecy? Wtf are you talking about? You think Netanyahu gives a shit? This is about business, always has been. And to a lesser degree peace and prosperity.

[/QUOTE]

why did netanyahu bring a greater israel map to the UN showcasing the entirety of gaza and the west bank outlined as israeli territory, coincidentally just before he (possibly) let oct 7th happen? "from the river to the sea", he said. but no - let's get hung up on the twenty year old libtards chanting it and ignore those in power actually carrying it out.

in addition to that, i don't need anymore convincing when i see the constant violence and land grabbing taking place in the west bank, being facilitated btw by the idf. a territory [B]not[/B] governed under hamas and having nothing to do with oct 7th.
[QUOTE=Baller234;15026991]

This nonsense about Israel being some grand puppet master is pure insanity honestly. They do not have blackmail on EVERYONE in the government. The level of influence you are hinting at would require asinine levels of conspiracy and secrecy, and it would probably have to include hundreds if not thousands of people. Not to mention decades upon decades of careful precision planning down to the most perfect detail. Contingency plans upon contingency plans spanning into infinity. For the last time, JEWS are not magical wizards!

[/QUOTE]

you're overthinking it. it works in the same way any other lobbying group does in washington.

an aipac representative walks into a congressperson's office and says "hey you're a great guy and we love you". if you vote [I]this[/I] way on [I]these[/I] particular issues, always ensuring that israel gets everything that it wants, whenever it wants it, then we will fund you for as long as you want and keep you in office. on the other hand, if you refuse to do this, we're going to pour as much money as we can into whomever your opponent turns out to be and [I]remove[/I] you from office.

...oh, and by the way - if you have no objections, we're going to plant someone in the office here who represents our interests, who will keep us informed and keep [I]you[/I] in line.

[IMG]https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/67243caa6cdc511f819106d8/191f181c-bc34-4e8c-9095-6d906de9ddbe/POTUS+Donald+Trump.png[/IMG]

yeah, nothing to see here. that $ was given to trump out of the kindness of the lobby's heart. they couldn't possibly expect anything back in return. :roll eyes: funny how every time bibi visits the white house there's immediately some new major plan moving forward involving our tax dollars.

nothing to see here either.

[video=youtube;nGP_0APz7R4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGP_0APz7R4[/video]

[QUOTE=Baller234;15026991]

America and Israel's interests are aligned because they just are. Because our countries and our people are motivated and driven by the same things. [/QUOTE]

i get that. but again, when a great power like the united states has [I]conflicting[/I] interests with another country, it almost always, [I]except[/I] in the case of israel, acts in terms of it's own interests - america first. but when it comes to israel, it's [I]israel[/I] first.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15026991]

Never thought I would see a woke right, but here we are.[/QUOTE]

oh yeah. :lol mtg, steve bannon, alex jones, candace owens, tucker - all just " woke righties" now because you're not liking what they're saying. the ones not taking that dark money aren't the truth tellers but the ones that [I]are[/I] compromised are the innocent ones. what kind of backward ass world are you living in?

in regard to iran, you'd be foolish to think that job is finished. iran will regroup and we'll have to act again and again until ultimately it will lead to another regime change war. like shawk said, if israel wants to do it then they can have at it on their own accord. we're not obligated, or at least [I]shouldn't be[/I], to do [I]their[/I] dirty work.

furthermore, if israel were forced to deal with the "iran problem" on their own without big brother backing them, it would have effectively limited their freedom of action and the outcome [I]probably[/I] would have been some sort of diplomatic solution similar to barack's iran deal, which btw - [B]worked[/B]. worked while it lasted, anyway.

@ diamenz

1. Great, Israel has it's own lobby. So does everyone else. As we speak there are 12,000+ registered "lobbyists" in Washington representing all sorts of corporations, unions, pharma, insurance and other foreign countries. So what gives Israel greater control than all of them? Please tell me. What? The Epstein files?

2. Yes those people you named are woke right when it comes to the topic of Israel, because almost every single criticism you guys make about Israel can also be applied to America. They sound like woke lefties complaining about America and complaining about white people. Israel is evil for doing this, this and this... like America wasn't built on conquest and expansion. Like America never laid waste to an opponent.

3. Oh, a diplomatic solution you say? Tell me, does that solution involve Iran being able to have a nuke?

[QUOTE=Baller234;15026875]Uhh...

Because one of them is an invaluable ally and shares our values, and the other one is ruled by radical islamists???

Are you fukking stupid???[/QUOTE]
:roll:

TheNazi, who would you rather have as a neighbor? A hasidic jewish family or a fundamentalist muslim family?

I'm sure neither is ideal, but if you had to pick.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15027034]@ diamenz

1. Great, Israel has it's own lobby. So does everyone else. As we speak there are 12,000+ registered "lobbyists" in Washington representing all sorts of corporations, unions, pharma, insurance and other foreign countries. So what gives Israel greater control than all of them? Please tell me. What? The Epstein files?

2. Yes those people you named are woke right when it comes to the topic of Israel, because almost every single criticism you guys make about Israel can also be applied to America. They sound like woke lefties complaining about America and complaining about white people. Israel is evil for doing this, this and this... like America wasn't built on conquest and expansion. Like America never laid waste to an opponent.

3. Oh, a diplomatic solution you say? Tell me, does that solution involve Iran being able to have a nuke?[/QUOTE]

1. absolutely. i have no issue in making it clear that i don't think the israel lobby is some evil cabal or grand conspiracy and i agree that it's efforts and activities are similar to any other lobby in washington. but in regard to your question - what sets it apart from it's peers is it's extraordinary [U]effectiveness[/U] as a consequence of our unconditional and unbridled subservience and support. as i already mentioned, in the case of conflicting interests between our countries, the united states will, in most instances, choose israel's interests over ours, even for example at the risk of our national security. for instance, take bin laden's statements in regard to his motives for carrying out the 9/11 attacks due to our proxy role in oppressing and dehumanizing palestinians. i'm not saying that this was the only reason for bin laden's ambitions in orchestrating those attacks but it was a major driving force. there's also of course the case of iraq which i'm sure you're aware of despite, i'm guessing, your lack of agreement with that theory.


so this unprecedented "generosity" is well beyond compare, particularly in contrast to the effectiveness of other country's lobbies that are for the most part economically focused and any security interests are rudimentary in scope; and again any lobbying efforts pale in comparison in efficacy. we would not and do not stick our neck out for other countries in the same way that we do israel. furthermore it should go without saying that just because other powerful lobbies exist and exert great influence over our government, doesn't exempt the israel lobby from criticism; especially [I]now[/I] when something as controversial as what's transpiring in gaza with our tax dollars and the cancel culture and anti-semetic labeling that's being used to discredit and silence any criticism. not to mention the lobby's ability to manipulate mainstream media and sway american public opinion.

2. it's quite obvious that you haven't listened to any of the above commentators in any serious capacity in regard to this subject. aside from candace, who can stray off into liberal territory in some instances (which btw are arguments that should be at least entertained despite not havng to agree with them), their arguments are similar to mine being rooted in america first and are neither anti-israel or pro-palestinian.

3. no, incorrect. iran did not have and was not developing a nuclear weapon under barack obama's iran deal. a diplomatic solution is obviously always ideal before any type military action is taken.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15027087]TheNazi, who would you rather have as a neighbor? A hasidic jewish family or a fundamentalist muslim family?

I'm sure neither is ideal, but if you had to pick.[/QUOTE]
I'd be cool with either, not all fundamentalist Muslims are jihadists like not all hasidic Jews are Zionists.