Better at basketball, Jokić or Kobe?

[QUOTE=Baller234;15030963]Lol.

So when someone dares to suggest that Kobe is better than you thought he was, it's because there's a secret agenda or bias. But when you guys suggest Kobe is some overrated hack, that's totally irrefutable because you guys just know more than everyone else.

Yolk is an amazing player and he would be great in any era, but you're comparing numbers across different timelines that have no business being compared in the first place. And even if you wanna argue that Yolk is the better offensive player, which is debatable, that still leaves defense. Kobe was elite on both sides of the ball. Yolk on defense is a sorry sack of shit and probably gives up 8-10 points a game due to sheer lack of effort.

Kobe never played in Yolk's era and Yolk never played in Kobe's, so we'll never know what their "numbers" would have been, nor do I care. I care about what they bring to the court as basketball players. Yolk is basically Larry Bird but with zero quickness and zero ability to penetrate. He's GREAT, but that's what he is. A bigger, a slower Larry Bird that is more limited 1 on 1 and doesn't play defense.

Meanwhile what's the worst thing you can say about Kobe. He has a bit of an ego and might take some ill advised shots. Okay fine, other than that he has no weaknesses or flaws in his game. Whatever perceived flaw you wanna harp on doesn't matter because ultimately it didn't matter. He won in spite of it.[/QUOTE]
All available data shows Kobe was a vastly overrated defender, frequently below average in fact.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15030964]All available data shows Kobe was a vastly overrated defender, frequently below average in fact.[/QUOTE]

"All available data..."

Translation, shit I just pulled out of my ass.

Okay professor, show me what the data has to say about Yolk then. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Baller234;15030966]"All available data..."

Translation, shit I just pulled out of my ass.

Okay professor, show me what the data has to say about Yolk then. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
I didn’t make up RAPM, xRAPM, or any similar stats. They are based on lineup data. You seem upset that Kobe had provably less impact than Jokic. Imagine Kobe trying to win a ring with the Nuggets roster in 2023, he would have lost in the first round lol.

[url]https://www.nbarapm.com/player/Kobe_Bryant[/url]

[url]https://www.nbarapm.com/player/Nikola_Jokic[/url]




Not even close


Kobe was a dismal defender most years :(

As someone who watched Kobe's entire peak. His defense was very lazy at times. When focused, he was one of the best man defensive guards in the league, but this wasn't often. He was constantly over helping & gambling on defense and got burned for it time and time again. Like I said earlier, this was a known thing by pretty much any NBA fan who watched him play from about 2004-2013.

Detailed look at his defense at 17:50 mark
[video=youtube;Jopi5e46PAY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jopi5e46PAY[/video]

I would also see quite a few threads on ISH discussing Kobe's overrated/bad defense at times, back when I first joined up until he retired.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15030970]As someone who watched Kobe's entire peak. His defense was very lazy at times. When focused, he was one of the best man defensive guards in the league, but this wasn't often. He was constantly over helping & gambling on defense and got burned for it time and time again. Like I said earlier, this was a known thing by pretty much any NBA fan who watched him play from about 2004-2013.

Detailed look at his defense at 17:50 mark
[video=youtube;Jopi5e46PAY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jopi5e46PAY[/video]

I would also see quite a few threads on ISH discussing Kobe's overrated/bad defense at times, back when I first joined up until he retired.[/QUOTE]
He could play good man defense but his team defense was often atrocious, and that's the more important aspect of defense. Bawler doesn't get this because he's low IQ and doesn't understand what he's watching.

Uh, don't know how you could watch those clips and come out thinking Kobe's defense was LAZY. He's clearly giving an effort at all times. Helping requires effort, gambling and swiping requires effort. It doesn't always yield results but sometimes it does. The intent is there. Even at Kobe's worst he's either hounding you like a pest or helping out on D. He's setting the tone.

When you talk about guys who are LAZY on defense, you should be talking about Yolk. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Baller234;15030978]Uh, don't know how you could watch those clips and come out thinking Kobe's defense was LAZY. He's clearly giving an effort at all times. Helping requires effort, gambling and swiping requires effort. It doesn't always yield results but sometimes it does. The intent is there. Even at Kobe's worst he's either hounding you like a pest or helping out on D. He's setting the tone.

When you talk about guys who are LAZY on defense, you should be talking about Yolk. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Not gonna respond to my posts eh?

Let's look at it this way bawler, just compare their skillset since you love skills so much. Jokic just has a better skillset even regardless of stats, it's funny you ignore that for a guy so focused on skills.

Scoring: Jokic
Rebounding: Jokic
Passing: Jokic
Perimeter defense: Kobe
Interior defense: Jokic
Ballhandling: Kobe
Shooting: Jokic
Playmaking: Jokic
IQ: Jokic
Post game: Jokic

[QUOTE=Baller234;15030978]Uh, don't know how you could watch those clips and come out thinking Kobe's defense was LAZY. He's clearly giving an effort at all times. Helping requires effort, gambling and swiping requires effort. It doesn't always yield results but sometimes it does. The intent is there. Even at Kobe's worst he's either hounding you like a pest or helping out on D. He's setting the tone.

When you talk about guys who are LAZY on defense, you should be talking about Yolk. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

This was a known thing. And to be honest, I don't really blame him. He had to conserve some energy on defense because he had such a big offensive role, especially when Shaq was gone. Phil Jackson most of the time would put Kobe on the weakest offensive player to conserve energy. He did this to MJ as he got older as well. Pretty much every great guard in history saw their defense suffer a little as their offense took off.

T-Mac was a solid defender when he was younger, by the time he was dominating in Orlando his defense was non existent at times. Harden was a solid defender in OKC, by the time he got to Houston he was atrocious on defense. When Kawhi peaked as an offensive player, he was no longer the defender he was in previous years. Stuff like this is very common among great scoring guards.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15030982]Let's look at it this way bawler, just compare their skillset since you love skills so much. Jokic just has a better skillset even regardless of stats, it's funny you ignore that for a guy so focused on skills.

Scoring: Jokic
Rebounding: Jokic
Passing: Jokic
Perimeter defense: Kobe
Interior defense: Jokic
Ballhandling: Kobe
Shooting: Jokic
Playmaking: Jokic
IQ: Jokic
Post game: Jokic[/QUOTE]

If you break it down like that, then Curry would be a low tier star at best.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15030983]:oldlol:

This was a known thing. And to be honest, I don't really blame him. He had to conserve some energy on defense because he had such big offensive role, especially when Shaq was gone. Phil Jackson most of the time would put Kobe on the weakest offensive player to conserve energy. He did this to MJ as he got older as well. Pretty much every great guard in history saw their defense suffer a little as their offense took off.

T-Mac was a solid defender when he was younger, by the time he was dominating in Orlando his defense was non existent at times. Harden was a solid defender in OKC, by the time he got to Houston he was atrocious on defense. When Kawhi peaked as an offensive player, he was no longer the defender he was in previous years. Stuff like this is very common among great scoring guards.[/QUOTE]
Phil was saying Kobe was overrated on defense back in 2004 lol. He wrote about it in his book.

[QUOTE=j3lademaster;15030985]If you break it down like that, then Curry would be a low tier star at best.[/QUOTE]
I don't rank players like that but he's the one who keeps rambling about Kobe's supposed lack of flaws in the skill department. Jokic is just more skilled :confusedshrug: Plus the stat advantage is ridiculously in his favor. and he won a ring without an all-star teammate. Kobe never did that.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15030978]Uh, don't know how you could watch those clips and come out thinking Kobe's defense was LAZY. He's clearly giving an effort at all times. Helping requires effort, gambling and swiping requires effort. It doesn't always yield results but sometimes it does. The intent is there. Even at Kobe's worst he's either hounding you like a pest or helping out on D. He's setting the tone.

When you talk about guys who are LAZY on defense, you should be talking about Yolk. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

So over multiple threads we found the two things Kobe was great at already:

Intent to play defense and missing beautiful shots.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15030988]Klay Thompson has much worse drapm numbers than Kobe and you claim Klay is a great defender….lmfai

[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/fb21JMPr/IMG-7187.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Klay is also overrated on defense. You happy? Now hit the meth pipe again, you know you want to.