[QUOTE=plowking]Yer, you're right. No one can shut down Jordan. No one has ever stopped him. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
More like "I know I'm right because I've watched the series a few times." Again, anyone can verify this for themselves.
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[QUOTE=plowking]Yer, you're right. No one can shut down Jordan. No one has ever stopped him. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
More like "I know I'm right because I've watched the series a few times." Again, anyone can verify this for themselves.
[QUOTE=Chicago76]Here's a head to head comparison w/ Ron Harper, Joe Dumars, and Jordan's averages during the pre-retirement period from 89/90 to 92/93:
Pts/Game: 32.0 avg, 28.5 vs. Dumars, and 24.7 vs. Harper
Reb/Game: 6.8 avg, 6.1 vs. Dumars, 7.2 vs. Harper
Ast/Game: 6.5 avg, 4.6 vs. Dumars, 5.7 vs. Harper
Stl/Game: 2.7 avg, 1.8 vs. Dumars, 2.5 vs. Harper
Turnovers/Game: 2.8 average, 2.7 vs. Dumars, 4.7 vs. Harper
Dumars did a better job on the rebounding and assist part, but Detroit was a great rebounding and defensive team. Jordan's lack of rebounds probably had more to due with Rodman, Laimbeer, and Mahorn than Dumars. The factors that have more to do w/ man defense are pts and turnovers. In both of these categories, Harper did a lot better job.[/QUOTE]
I think it's silly to infer things from limited sample sizes, especially when Jordan used to utterly abuse Harper on the Cavs.
Cleveland did get abused by Jordan when he played for the Cavs. And do you know why that was? Cleveland often played small ball with Price, Ehlo, and Harper on the court simultaneously. Ehlo couldn't guard a SF, so wound up on Jordan for big stretches of those games. That's where Jordan put up a lot of his numbers. Harper got his share too, but 2 or three years into the league he became a much better defender.
Jordan was once asked back in 89/90 what the best thing to ever happen to him in the NBA was. His reply was, "Ron Harper getting traded to the Clippers."
So when we're bringing up players who guarded Jordan well, I'll trust Michael Jordan's opinion a little more the Loki's.
joe dumars
[QUOTE=Chicago76]
Jordan was once asked back in 89/90 what the best thing to ever happen to him in the NBA was. His reply was, "Ron Harper getting traded to the Clippers." [/quote]
Find me the quote, because that sounds like BS. I've never heard that, and I've read many Jordan books/articles. Jordan would never say something like that, because it makes him look scared, which he had no reason to be since he regularly abused Harper in the late 80's.
EDIT: And please don't try to act like Jordan didn't routinely have his way with Harper. There are about a dozen Bulls/Cavs games on youtube for all to see.
[B]1-Dumars
2-Harper
3-Payton
4-Drexler[/B]
Random trivia....
For all the people that say the Bulls would've beaten Houston if Jordan played for the Bulls.
I bet y'all don't know that Jordan once said the best player that defended him was Vernon Maxwell when he was with the Rockets.... Most points Jordan ever scored on VM was 17.
I know it's shocking, I could never put my finger on it either, but for some reason Maxwell always got up for those games.
I just thought with all these names being tossed out there, ol' Mad Max deserved a honorary mention.
[QUOTE=Loki]Find me the quote, because that sounds like BS. I've never heard that, and I've read many Jordan books/articles. Jordan would never say something like that, because it makes him look scared, which he had no reason to be since he regularly abused Harper in the late 80's.
EDIT: And please don't try to act like Jordan didn't routinely have his way with Harper. There are about a dozen Bulls/Cavs games on youtube for all to see.[/QUOTE]
Of course he's been torched by Michael Jordan. Everyone has. The point is, when Jordan went off on the Cavs for 40 or 50, 60% of what he got, he got off Ehlo. It was ridiculous. As for Jordan saying this, I've heard it out of his mouth in person before. It's not an accident the Bulls picked up Harper back in 94/95. Harper was slower by then, but he was a smart defender. He had a way of bringing you to a spot on the floor. This was a guy that fit into Chicago's defensive schemes and could run the triangle.
Here is Daugherty talking about Jordan's regard for Harper last year:
[I]“Michael [Jordan] always said that was the best thing that ever happened to him was when we got rid of Ron..."
(Source: Plain Dealer, May 2, 2007)[/I]
Like I said, MJ's opinion of players that gave him trouble >>>> Loki's opinion
Are you willing to concede?
Loki still trying to under play Payton's defense on Jordan? :oldlol:
He tells us to watch the series again but the problem is he only watched in a "Jordan angle". The rest of us all watched it in a unbiased view and all we got was "Payton did a great job on Jordan".
[B]
It's not a coincidence that Loki is the only one underplaying Payton's defensive effort and he's a Jordan lover. While everyone else is saying Payton did an exceptional job.[/B]
And for those who don't know, Karl and the Sonics came out into the series with a gameplan of double teaming Jordan while having Payton stick Pippen. That didn't work out too well after the 1st 2 games, and they stuck Payton primarily on Jordan from games 3 and on.
[B]
Jordan actually shot just 39% when Payton was his primary defenders in games.[/B]
And I love Loki's excuse of how Jordan was just "off"? :oldlol:
That is the most pathetic excuse I have ever seen. Loki obviously does not know that wide open misses can occur if the opposing defender frustrates you to a point that you miss shots you usually do. Payton was one of those defenders who would get inside your head with his trash talking. Not to mention he also did a great job playing ball deny defense against Jordan which took away some of Jordan's stamina. So when Jordan got the ball, he'd have less energy as well.
But yeah, those "wide open" looks weren't all when Payton was guarding Jordan. So talking about them is pointless, not to mention the psychological/stamina effects Payton put on Jordan.
But yeah, saying a player was "off" is the most pathetic thing I have ever heard. No one has ever shut down anyone according to that excuse. Everyone just has been "off". :oldlol:
[QUOTE=TMac&Luther]Random trivia....
For all the people that say the Bulls would've beaten Houston if Jordan played for the Bulls.
I bet y'all don't know that Jordan once said the best player that defended him was Vernon Maxwell when he was with the Rockets.... Most points Jordan ever scored on VM was 17.
I know it's shocking, I could never put my finger on it either, but for some reason Maxwell always got up for those games.
I just thought with all these names being tossed out there, ol' Mad Max deserved a honorary mention.[/QUOTE]
Sigh...here we go with the Maxwell myth.
First of all, not sure where you get the "17 points was his high against Maxwell" thing from, but a quick look at box scores on basketball-reference disproves this. Jordan had games of 34, 44, 48, 35, 32, and games in the 20's vs. Maxwell. In fact, he never scored exactly 17 points against him, so that's just nonsense.
Jordan averaged [B]31.7 pts/5.2 ast/51.0% FG[/B] vs. Maxwell in 12 meetings between '89-'96. How that constitutes "success" is anyone's guess. Jordan had one very poor game against Maxwell (9-26 FG for 22 points in '92), but if you saw the game (as I have), you'd know that that had more to do with Hakeem's [b]8 blocks[/b] that game (and numerous altered shots) than with Maxwell. It also helped that Maxwell played with the two best defensive bigs of the era in DRob and Hakeem. I'd actually watch the games before throwing laurels his way. :oldlol:
And I can guarantee that, like the "Ron Harper leaving Cleveland was the best thing that ever happened to me" reference above, you cannot find a quote/source for the "Maxwell guarded me the best" comment.
[QUOTE=Chicago76]Of course he's been torched by Michael Jordan. Everyone has. The point is, when Jordan went off on the Cavs for 40 or 50, 60% of what he got, he got off Ehlo. It was ridiculous. As for Jordan saying this, I've heard it out of his mouth in person before. It's not an accident the Bulls picked up Harper back in 94/95. Harper was slower by then, but he was a smart defender. He had a way of bringing you to a spot on the floor. This was a guy that fit into Chicago's defensive schemes and could run the triangle.
Here is Daugherty talking about Jordan's regard for Harper last year:
[I]“Michael [Jordan] always said that was the best thing that ever happened to him was when we got rid of Ron..."
(Source: Plain Dealer, May 2, 2007)[/I]
Like I said, MJ's opinion of players that gave him trouble >>>> Loki's opinion
Are you willing to concede?[/QUOTE]
Nice, a second-hand quote. :oldlol: I knew an actual quote from Jordan would have been too much to ask for.
Glove20, anyone can watch the series and which of us is correct. I've watched the series at least 5 times, and I can tell you that Jordan was missing wide open layups, offensive putbacks, and open 16-footers the entire series. These are usually automatic for him, but weren't in that series for whatever reason. Whether it was the first quarter or fourth quarter, mind you (so stamina was not an issue). If you'd like to credit Payton's "defense" for missed open looks, then that's your prerogative. Anyone can watch the games. Jordan, as usual, got the shots he wanted...and bricked them. Payton's defense had an effect (he played MJ as well as you possibly can), but not a 41.6% shooting effect -- not on its own, at least.
Watch the series, people. I also love how Glove20 acts like Payton didn't receive help from numerous other defenders as Seattle swarmed Jordan all series. :oldlol:
[QUOTE=Loki]Nice, a second-hand quote. :oldlol: I knew an actual quote from Jordan would have been too much to ask for.
Glove20, anyone can watch the series and which of us is correct. I've watched the series at least 5 times, and I can tell you that Jordan was missing wide open layups, offensive putbacks, and open 16-footers the entire series. These are usually automatic for him, but weren't in that series for whatever reason. Whether it was the first quarter or fourth quarter, mind you (so stamina was not an issue). If you'd like to credit Payton's "defense" for missed open looks, then that's your prerogative. Anyone can watch the games. Jordan, as usual, got the shots he wanted...and bricked them. Payton's defense had an effect (he played MJ as well as you possibly can), but not a 41.6% shooting effect -- not on its own, at least.
Watch the series, people.[/QUOTE]
Don't you think it's odd Loki that you are the only one who thinks Payton's defense wasn't that great and you are a Jordan fan to the greatest extent? Everyone else is saying something different, but you are on your own side. You view it through Jordan lenses thats why, while the rest of us are unbiased.
And once again, did you miss Payton's trash talking psychological effect? That 's part of Payton's defense.
[QUOTE=Loki]Nice, a second-hand quote. :oldlol: I knew an actual quote from Jordan would have been too much to ask for. [/QUOTE]
If you want a first hand primary source, hire a librarian. Or admit you might not know everything about MJ and do some more reading in your spare time.
[QUOTE=Glove_20]Don't you think it's odd Loki that you are the only one who thinks Payton's defense wasn't that great [/QUOTE]
Who said he didn't play great defense? The points I made don't mean that he didn't play great defense, only that he didn't play as great defense as the numbers alone suggest.
And no, I don't think it's odd, because I know for a fact that I'm one of the few people who have watched that entire series in the last few years, so I know what I'm talking about. I know for a fact that there are a lot of Jordan haters or in this case GP lovers who just look at the numbers and jump to conclusions.
Here's a clue: there's a reason I ALWAYS tell people to watch the games to verify what I'm saying, and it's not because I'm wrong.
[QUOTE=Chicago76]If you want a first hand primary source, hire a librarian. Or admit you might not know everything about MJ and do some more reading in your spare time.[/QUOTE]
In a court of law, what you posted is hearsay. Next time come correct if you're going to suggest that Jordan of all people said something as NONSENSICAL as "the best thing that ever happened to me was Harper leaving the Cavs" considering the success he had had against Harper. It's just ridiculous that anyone could believe that he would say such a thing. This is Jordan we're talking about. Forget about the fact that he roasted Harper -- you think MICHAEL JORDAN is going to admit to an OPPONENT that another player affected him in some way? Let's get real... :oldlol: