Phil Jackson: Rodman is the greatest athlete I've ever coached

[QUOTE=Loki]More nonsense. Any professional long or high-jumper 6'3" or better can dunk from where Jordan did. Rodman can't. Any professional sprinter can outrun Jordan on the court; Rodman couldn't.

Keep throwing out non-sequiturs, though. It seems that's all you're good for.[/QUOTE]
and i tried to find jordans and rodmans 40 times and or a race and i cant find either can you?

[QUOTE=RainierBeachPoet]directly the interview, pj defines "athleticism" as:

[I]

[QUOTE=RainierBeachPoet]from the context of the interview, it seems like pj defines "athleticism" as:

“He could probably play a 48-minute game and play the 48th minute stronger than the first minute of the game,” Jackson told the crowd at UND. “He was that terrific an athlete.”

so, could this be interpreted as the ability to play stronger at the end of a game when everyone else is spent?

i was always amazed at rodman's ability to stop the best players and throw them off their game. he was the one guy that gave magic fits because of his combined length, quickness and strength. dennis was an extremely heady player on the court[/QUOTE]

<shrug> It's also possible he simply meant endurance. Rodman seemed to be able to play at a high level for an unlimited amount of time. Of course Jordan was never one to take a play off either.

There's never going to be a clear cut answer to the question, no matter what some people on here believe.

People like Loki should be respected for the amount of statistical and historical knowledge of a player they have managed to attain, yet ridiculed for their narrow-minded inability to see the faults in a player, or admit that their is a possibility that someone could have been better than them given different circumstances.

In his own way he's as bad as the Kobe groupies on this site, he's just more knowledgeable about his chosen icon.

In short, he's bias, and for that single reason, I have completely dismissed and refused to reply to any and all comments he's made.

I happen to respect both Rodman, AND Jordan, and both players equally amazed me for different reasons. If Jordan had focused entirely on rebounding and defense, I believe he could have given Rodman a run for his money.

Both players were among the top athletes of their era or any era, both players are among the most mentally focused individuals to ever play the game. Both have a great understanding of the game from both the offensive and defensive standpoints.

Rodman will forever be underrated because he chose the tougher, less respected path.

However, to fail to acknowledge these things in either player just makes this a sad, sad, discussion.

Mathius

[QUOTE=RainierBeachPoet]directly the interview, pj defines "athleticism" as:

[I] “He could probably play a 48-minute game and play the 48th minute stronger than the first minute of the game,” Jackson told the crowd at UND. “He was that terrific an athlete.”[/I]

so, could this be interpreted as the ability to play stronger at the end of a game when everyone else is spent?

i was always amazed at rodman's ability to stop the best players and throw them off their game. he was the one guy that gave magic fits because of his combined length, quickness and strength. dennis was an extremely heady player on the court[/QUOTE]

Yeah, he's talking about stamina. I could almost believe that (though Jordan had more stamina than him imo when you consider everything he did for the team -- think late 80's/early 90's -- Rodman was elite in that respect). But you now have people trying to act like Rodman is an elite run/jump athlete, which he isn't.

[quote]and i tried to find jordans and rodmans 40 times and or a race and i cant find either can you?[/quote]

Jordan ran a 4.3 second 40 at UNC in his sophomore year, and also did so on some celebrity athlete game show in the late 80's/early 90's where he raced with Deion Sanders. The UNC time is mentioned here:

[url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/flashbacks/jordan/831128/[/url]

More than that, however, it's simply something you can see on the court. You can actually time it, too.

[QUOTE=Mathius]or admit that their is a possibility that someone could have been better than them given different circumstances.
[/QUOTE]

I'd have no trouble admitting it if it were at all plausible. Rodman simply would have never been a dominant offensive player. Could he have been a 15-17 ppg/50% guy? Possibly. 32 ppg/50%? No.

[QUOTE=Loki]Yeah, he's talking about stamina. I could almost believe that (though Jordan had more stamina than him imo when you consider everything he did for the team -- think late 80's/early 90's -- Rodman was elite in that respect). But you now have people trying to act like Rodman is an elite run/jump athlete, which he isn't.



Jordan ran a 4.3 second 40 at UNC in his sophomore year, and also did so on some celebrity athlete game show in the late 80's/early 90's where he raced with Deion Sanders. The UNC time is mentioned here:

[url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/flashbacks/jordan/831128/[/url]

More than that, however, it's simply something you can see on the court. You can actually time it, too.[/QUOTE]
thats fast and i remember the sanders race and sanders who i believe ran consistant 4.3s smoked him like a philly blunt on a friday night.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]thats fast and i remember the sanders race and sanders who i believe ran consistant 4.3s smoked him like a philly blunt on a friday night.[/QUOTE]

Well, that's what he was timed at on the show. Maybe you were watching a different show? :oldlol: By the way, no one ever said Sanders isn't as fast as Jordan, but Rodman sure wasn't.

[QUOTE=Loki]Well, that's what he was timed at on the show. Maybe you were watching a different show? :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
or maybe there wasnt a show to begin with. hmmm. but are you now trying to say that jordan is as fast as sanders? and to be honest in that particular race he may have run a 4.3 but i really dont think he could run consistant 4.3s maybe a consistant 4.4 or 4.5 at the fastest. but i looked it up and sanders fastest time is 4.07.

[QUOTE=Loki]Well, that's what he was timed at on the show. Maybe you were watching a different show? :oldlol: By the way, no one ever said Sanders isn't as fast as Jordan, but Rodman sure wasn't.[/QUOTE]
neither jordan or rodman is as fast as sanders. and i just dont think that a young rodman and jordan is that much different atletically.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]or maybe there wasnt a show to begin with. hmmm. [/QUOTE]

Uhh, sure -- a show that I and millions of others saw. Okay.

[QUOTE=Loki]Uhh, sure -- a show that I and millions of others saw. Okay.[/QUOTE]
who won the race? and by how much? what was the name of the show? lol

maybe he was on american gladiators.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]who won the race? and by how much? what was the name of the show? lol[/QUOTE]

Wait, I thought you said you saw Sanders smoke him like a blunt. Yeah, it's clear what I'm dealing with here. Toodles.

[QUOTE=Loki]Wait, I thought you said you saw Sanders smoke him like a blunt. Yeah, it's clear what I'm dealing with here. Toodles.[/QUOTE]
i was joking, we all know there is no show.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]i was joking, we all know there is no show.[/QUOTE]

Whatever you say, buddy. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Mathius]See, you f*cking idiots think you know everything. When I say something you guys give me sh*t and call me a moron.

I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better. The guy was as mentally focused as they come, and was just as athletically gifted as any other guy.

Do you know how much more physical (muscle) effort it takes to keep tipping the ball and jumping up and down continuously like Rodman did, then it does to just glide in and dunk the ball?

Mathius[/QUOTE]

damn! you ARE a moron

[quote=Mathius]

I happen to respect both Rodman, AND Jordan, and both players equally amazed me for different reasons. If Jordan had focused entirely on rebounding and defense, I believe he could have given Rodman a run for his money.

Both players were among the top athletes of their era or any era, both players are among the most mentally focused individuals to ever play the game. Both have a great understanding of the game from both the offensive and defensive standpoints.

Rodman will forever be underrated because he chose the tougher, less respected path.

However, to fail to acknowledge these things in either player just makes this a sad, sad, discussion.

Mathius[/quote]

discussions here will generally be limited just because most of the post-ers here had never seen rodman. eventhough he became the rebounding beast in the mid 90s, i always thought his prime was with the pistons before his personal issues came into their prime

unfortunately, his off the court antics will also cast a shadow on his nba career. it is these perceptions that affect his standing in all time lists too. the sports careers of oj simpson and pete rose also will never be the same either

[QUOTE=RainierBeachPoet]discussions here will generally be limited just because most of the post-ers here had never seen rodman. eventhough he became the rebounding beast in the mid 90s, i always thought his prime was with the pistons before his personal issues came into their prime

unfortunately, his off the court antics will also cast a shadow on his nba career. it is these perceptions that affect his standing in all time lists too. the sports careers of oj simpson and pete rose also will never be the same either[/QUOTE]

Let me ask you something. Do you truly believe Rodman was as bad as they made him out to be? Obviously he was an attention whore, still is... That hasn't changed.

But I'm thinking back on some of the things he did, and I'm thinking... today would it be such a big deal?

Remember when the guy made headlines, because he took his shoes off on the sideline and sat down on the baseline? Today I don't think players are even allowed down in that area of the court anymore, and the dress code certainly makes taking your shoes off a no-no, but I thought it was way overblown at the time that it happened.

Of course he's known for the dresses, but that's all off court. And the hair, which today isn't a big deal. But perhaps the biggest issue, also off court was when he was found in his truck with a shotgun ready to kill himself after the Pistons got broken up and Daley was removed as head coach. Is it too unfathomable that in an era where psychology wasn't main stream like it is today, that Rodman who IIRC never knew his father had abandonment issues when his 'family'(the Pistons) was broken up and his 'father' (Daley) was taken away?

Anyways, it's a shame that this generation of kids doesn't know just how good Rodman really was. The fact that they compare him to Ben Wallace is an insult if you ask me.

Mathius

Since this keeps getting bumped I guess I'll venture a comment. Rodman spent most of his time in the weight room. He was a rock and pound for pound the greatest rebounder ever but he was not the world's greatest athlete.

He does not have Jordan's vertical, Jordan's lateral, Jordan's speed, Jordan's quickness, Jordan's coordination, Jordan's agility with the ball, etc. Furthermore rebounding requires absurd amounts of energy, but so does handling the ball for most of an NBA game. Rodman never had to worry about handling the ball whereas Jordan did. I'd bet that twice the calories are burned up with the ball than without it. And there is nothing that requires as much effort as driving. Rodman did not have Jordan's endurance.

Jordan would beat Rodman in the high jump, long jump, 100 m and the mile.

[quote=Mathius]Let me ask you something. Do you truly believe Rodman was as bad as they made him out to be? Obviously he was an attention whore, still is... That hasn't changed.

But I'm thinking back on some of the things he did, and I'm thinking... today would it be such a big deal?

Remember when the guy made headlines, because he took his shoes off on the sideline and sat down on the baseline? Today I don't think players are even allowed down in that area of the court anymore, and the dress code certainly makes taking your shoes off a no-no, but I thought it was way overblown at the time that it happened.

Of course he's known for the dresses, but that's all off court. And the hair, which today isn't a big deal. But perhaps the biggest issue, also off court was when he was found in his truck with a shotgun ready to kill himself after the Pistons got broken up and Daley was removed as head coach. Is it too unfathomable that in an era where psychology wasn't main stream like it is today, that Rodman who IIRC never knew his father had abandonment issues when his 'family'(the Pistons) was broken up and his 'father' (Daley) was taken away?

Anyways, it's a shame that this generation of kids doesn't know just how good Rodman really was. The fact that they compare him to Ben Wallace is an insult if you ask me.

Mathius[/quote]

seems to me that rodman just kept spiraling downward and he became a parody of himself. there must have been a part of hiim that didnt mind being the center of (negative) attention

his reputation preceded him and he had a huge target on his back and i believe received unfair treatment at times by the league who wanted that squeeky clean image from its players

many of rodmans incidents were overblown by the league imo. i remember watching rodman when he played for the lakers. rodman got called for a foul which he didnt think he did. he just stared at the ref; didnt say a word (i think the ref was ron garretson). and garretson gave him a technical foul. it was the worse tech i had ever seen

as good as ben wallace was, he doesnt hold a candle to rodman

So, uh, ignoring all of the Mathius ****, it was good to see the Piston part of that Rodman video. I had forgotten what young Worm was like.

[QUOTE=Mathius]

I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better. The guy was as mentally focused as they come, and was just as athletically gifted as any other guy.

[/QUOTE]

Sorry man, but that statement is flat out wrong. Michael Jordan being as good as he was on the offensive end had to have required some natural skill, meaning even if he didn't put any work into it, he would've still had some skills. On the other hand, Dennis Rodman had absolutely none of that. If he did he would've at least been able to score like someone like Charles Oakley or Bruce Bowen but he was an absolutely horrible scorer.

[QUOTE=33 23]The three greatest athletes Phil has ever coached are Jordan, Pippen, and Kobe. Nobody else is even close.[/QUOTE]

You're kidding, right? What about Shaq?

Shaq was so much stronger than all of these guys with every part of his body yet he was arguably quicker(not faster with running though) and could jump damn near as high despite being a hell of a lot heavier.

For being as agile as he was while still being that big and that strong, Shaq rates higher than Bryant and maybe Pippen, but no way was he as quick as those guys were.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green]For being as agile as he was while still being that big and that strong, Shaq rates higher than Bryant and maybe Pippen, but no way was he as quick as those guys were.[/QUOTE]

His spin move was quicker than anything Bryant could ever hope to pull off.

well, he said greatest "athlete" and not "ballplayer" so maybe he's right.

I swear I wonder sometimes if people even read the links in these threads or maybe there just too stupid to know there

[QUOTE=Mathius]See, you f*cking idiots think you know everything. When I say something you guys give me sh*t and call me a moron.

I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better. The guy was as mentally focused as they come, and was just as athletically gifted as any other guy.

Do you know how much more physical (muscle) effort it takes to keep tipping the ball and jumping up and down continuously like Rodman did, then it does to just glide in and dunk the ball?

Mathius[/QUOTE]
:confusedshrug: :oldlol:
Relax man.

[QUOTE=Vendetta]His spin move was quicker than anything Bryant could ever hope to pull off.[/QUOTE]
When he exploded to the rim, no one could do anything about it. But do you really think he could keep up with any of those guys on the perimeter? Explosiveness isn't quite the same thing as quickness and agility.
[QUOTE=33 23]Too bad for people who overrate Shaq's raw athletic ability, strength has nothing to do with athleticism..[/QUOTE]


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