Gervin " "I could get 30 or 40 every night real easy, these days"

so what if barkeley picked up shaq he still end up bleeding and if that fight went on barkeley would have lost. Its easy to make someone fall if you go for their legs. Watch football.\
what barkeley did wasnt bravery it was stupidity. Shaq could easily have swung at him and he would have been unconcious


glen davis tackled shaq so i guess he is stronger than shaq right?

[QUOTE=plowking]
The only reason things like FG have gone down for wing players is due to zone defense. They are forced to take outside jumpers. Of course there are going to be less made shots.[/QUOTE]


I'd actually say the FG% has dropped because of the amount of 3's taken, however the eFG between eras, and FT percentage has stayed relatively the same.

Simple things like that Sir Charles cant comprehend though, it's apparent this guy is irrational and completely biased.

[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]A center wow :rolleyes: did he pick him up and throw him to the ground?:confusedshrug:[/B]

[B]The NBA`s level decrease after 1992 its a fact, then again in 1996 and beyond that its just hilarious:confusedshrug: [/B]

[B]By the way the league had more pace in the 80s because players had way more Full Court B_Ball IQ (knew how to move in the cout) and actually had a Passing Game.[/B][/QUOTE]


LMAO, full court B-ball IQ? I've never heard anything as stupid as that on this site.

The arguments Sir Charles is presenting are ridiculous. So why bother arguing with him? Everyone loses.

[QUOTE=abuC]I'd actually say the FG% has dropped because of the amount of 3's taken, however the eFG between eras, and FT percentage has stayed relatively the same.

Simple things like that Sir Charles cant comprehend though, it's apparent this guy is irrational and completely biased.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, he makes stupid claims like former greats doing well in the later eras.

I can also say, look at Jordans stats, and look at his FG% at the end of his career at the Bulls. It began to drop.

He is just thick and too dense to realize that naturally every sport has progressed rather than regressed.

Gervin's comment might have been arrogant, but he's probably right. He easily put up 25-27 points per game and had two 30+ point per game seasons. In an era where there are inferior defenders and soft fouls, he could certainly put up 30 a game. Half his points would probably come at the free throw line anyway.

[QUOTE=D.J.]Gervin's comment might have been arrogant, but he's probably right. He easily put up 25-27 points per game and had two 30+ point per game seasons. In an era where there are inferior defenders and soft fouls, he could certainly put up 30 a game. Half his points would probably come at the free throw line anyway.[/QUOTE]

I just find it funny how posters who posted previously, said Kobe's 81 point performance isn't that impressive because Gervin could have done the same thing if he played today. No, no he couldn't have...

They bring up points like he scored 55 points in a half and so on and use crappy mathamatical calculations to figure out that he would have scored more then 81. How do you know how he would have shot for the rest of the game? How do you know if he wasn't tired.

Kobe scored 62 in less then 3 quarters of basketball. I can get his most amount of points scored in a quarter and say he could have produced it again in this game and also if he had no rest he would have scored 100.

[QUOTE=plowking]

I can also say, look at Jordans stats, and look at his FG% at the end of his career at the Bulls. It began to drop. [/quote]

1) He was 35 years old.

2) He shot 48% after the first 20 games of the 1998 season (during which he shot ~42% FG/68% FT) after he adjusted to a torn ligament/cracked knuckle on the index finger on his shooting hand.

Just FYI.

[QUOTE=plowking]Exactly, he makes stupid claims like former greats doing well in the later eras.

I can also say, look at Jordans stats, and look at his FG% at the end of his career at the Bulls. It began to drop.

He is just thick and too dense to realize that naturally every sport has progressed rather than regressed.[/QUOTE]

[B]It dropped because he was obviously aging dumy. Jordan schooled 85% of the players in the NBA till age 38 and playing with the Wizard`s not his Bulls. Do you realize this? Dream of Kobe doing that even with his Great Supporting Casts of today at age 38 :rolleyes:

I have just given you the Schooling of Magic Johnson on ZO and Tim Hardaway among others getting 27 Points, 9 Rebounds, 9 Assists and to end it; he gets Zo fouled out at home too :pimp: . Zo was 25 years old (totally Prime) and Magic was [U]36 years old [/U], [U]NOT PLAYING FOR 4-5 YEARS [/U]and [U]PLAYING NOT PG BUT PF[/U] :oldlol: [/B]

[QUOTE]I just find it funny how posters who posted previously, said Kobe's 81 point performance isn't that impressive because Gervin could have done the same thing if he played today. No, no he couldn't have...[/QUOTE]

Even while in his prime, Gervin played well under 40 minutes per game. If Gervin were to average 40 minutes per game, perhaps he could have. Even then, he probably still would have fallen short.

[QUOTE]They bring up points like he scored 55 points in a half and so on and use crappy mathamatical calculations to figure out that he would have scored more then 81. How do you know how he would have shot for the rest of the game? How do you know if he wasn't tired.[/QUOTE]

Going by Gervin's playing time, I really cannot see how he would have surpassed the 81 point mark. He had the field goal percentage to do it. He shot well over 50% from the field, but there just was not enough time.

[QUOTE]Kobe scored 62 in less then 3 quarters of basketball. I can get his most amount of points scored in a quarter and say he could have produced it again in this game and also if he had no rest he would have scored 100.[/QUOTE]

Without rest, he could have reached it had he continued his hot shooting. There is a lot of what ifs. Considering Gervin average over 30 points per game, even in the early 80s, there is no doubt he would at the very least, match that today. He was a 54% shooter in his prime.

[QUOTE=inclinerator]so what if barkeley picked up shaq he still end up bleeding and if that fight went on barkeley would have lost. Its easy to make someone fall if you go for their legs. Watch football.\
what barkeley did wasnt bravery it was stupidity. Shaq could easily have swung at him and he would have been unconcious


glen davis tackled shaq so i guess he is stronger than shaq right?[/QUOTE]

[B]Oh really?:eek: well he missed :hammerhead: Charles moved he aint quick and guessed what happened next? Charles picked that 350 lbs **** up from the ground in an instant (not 1 second or 2,..0.5 seconds) and landed on him and was about to punch him but his teamates went on top to move him. Then you the camara shows Charles pissed and Mr Shaky all Upset and Afraid. There is proof on that. To bad youtube removed the fight when it was filmed from behined :rolleyes: [/B]

no he was bleeding had it been a longer fight charles might have been beheaded. not really but he probably would have lost.

[QUOTE=Loki]1) He was 35 years old.

2) He shot 48% after the first 20 games of the 1998 season (during which he shot ~42% FG/68% FT) after he adjusted to a torn ligament/cracked knuckle on the index finger on his shooting hand.

Just FYI.[/QUOTE]

I know, all I'm saying is his point aren't valid at all much like the one I brought up about Jordan. It proves nothing about the eras.

Wing players have decreased in FG% due to zone defense.

Though my point is, the skills of players will continue to get better over time. He is neglecting this. Go look at the tapes of the 80's and prior to that. Are any of the players movements as smooth as now? No. The game has been studied and players have improved naturally as every sport does.

Zone defense is getting too much credit in this thread.

[QUOTE=G-train]Zone defense is getting too much credit in this thread.[/QUOTE]


You can certainly use zone defense as a reason, but it used way too much. There are guys today that are excellent man to man defenders. Unfortunately, this era is mainly zone and it benefits weaker defenders.

[QUOTE=G-train]Zone defense is getting too much credit in this thread.[/QUOTE]

You think all wing players just naturally became worse from the field? There were rules implemented and of course it affected the FG of a lot of wing players.

Arguments such as Wade being one of the few close to 50% shooting is an example. He is one of the few players that settles for jumpshots and thus his FG is a little higher.

[QUOTE=plowking]You think all wing players just naturally became worse from the field? There were rules implemented and of course it affected the FG of a lot of wing players. [/QUOTE]

But it didn't? Unless you have some sort of cite that the FG% of wings went down permanently after the rule changes. I'd be really interested in something like that.

Historically, as far as I can see, it's pretty unusual for a prolific scoring wing player to average 50%+ no matter the era. And those that do tend to be in the Hall.

The Big O did it a couple times
West did it once, had lots of 49s
Gervin
Thompson
Dr. J
Bird
Mullin
Dantley
King (before he blew out his knee...)
English
Drexler
Jordan

I can't really think of any other perimeter player who scored in buckets and had 50% although I'm sure I'm missing some. I can think of a lot who had similar FG% to players today -- Greer, Dumars, Moncrief, Dennis Johnson, Havlicek, Jo Jo White, Rick Barry, Mitch Richmond, Starks, Hill, Hardaway, etc. although some of those aren't really prolific (some are in the 20-22 ppg range).

Carmelo is extremely close. A healthy Wade showed us what he can do. Chris Paul was extremely close in only his third year although I guess you wouldn't call 21 ppg prolific (ditto Williams, who did hit 50% but only 18 ppg). Dirk did it his MVP year and had some 48% seasons, which is funny I guess because he's not really a wing (he just plays like one, haha). Kobe has shown flashes of being able to do it -- IIRC he averaged well over 50% in the playoffs last year until he hit the Finals. And yes, I do think a lot of it has to do with players having questionable shot selections a lot of the time.

Well its hard to take a sample of players after and before the handcheck rule as it was reinforced sometime in 06, though originally introduced in 2000 I think.

Though take a look at Richmonds career. As his career went along his FG% got worse and worse with time. He sure as hell didn't become a worse player in his prime. It's just the way wing players are in some way forced to play now. It is a lot more jumpshooting then driving due to the defense.

[QUOTE=plowking]You think all wing players just naturally became worse from the field? There were rules implemented and of course it affected the FG of a lot of wing players. [/QUOTE]

Wing player FG% dropped way before zone started being employed (which was ~2004), so that argument is moot. You're acting like guys like Kobe/TMac/VC/AI were shooting blistering percentages from '99-'04. They weren't.

[QUOTE=Loki]Wing player FG% dropped way before zone started being employed (which was ~2004), so that argument is moot. You're acting like guys like Kobe/TMac/VC/AI were shooting blistering percentages from '99-'04. They weren't.[/QUOTE]

Take a look and you'll realize the majority of them had their career highs in FG% during those years. Of course none of them are going to shot 50% as they aren't MJ. Though I'm saying this did have an impact on their FG numbers.

[QUOTE=plowking]
Though take a look at Richmonds career. As his career went along his FG% got worse and worse with time. He sure as hell didn't become a worse player in his prime.[/QUOTE]

I don't understand. His second and third years he had a nice FG%. Then it erodes until he shoots an OK 44-45%. Then at age 33 in '98 it falls off a cliff. But all this was happening in the early to mid 90s.

[quote=Loki]Wing player FG% dropped way before zone started being employed[/quote]

I know league wide team offenses died in the late 90s (see [url=http://ww.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=418]here[/url]) so it should follow that wings (along with all players) were less efficient, but I'd still love to see (if you have one) a cite with details about wing players' FG% dropping.

Also, according to that link league wide team offensive efficiency improved after the rule changes in 2004.

[QUOTE=plowking]Take a look and you'll realize the majority of them had their career highs in FG% during those years. Of course none of them are going to shot 50% as they aren't MJ. Though I'm saying this did have an impact on their FG numbers.[/QUOTE]

AI has had his career high FG% since zone. Guys like Wade/Leron/Melo have averaged 48-49.5% FG since zone, whereas in the '99-'04 time frame no perimeter player did so. Kobe has shot comparably (46.1% the last two years) on higher ppg volume than he was scoring in the early 00's, and this despite being the primary option. Pierce had both his highest FG% [b]and[/b] highest ppg average in 2006, post-zone. Carter shot comparably in 2007 on similar volume despite being a much older and less explosive player than he was in '00 or '01.

In short: the FG% of these wing players is not a result of the zone.

[QUOTE=Loki]AI has had his career high FG% since zone. Guys like [B]Wade/Leron/Melo [/B]have averaged 48-49.5% FG since zone, whereas in the '99-'04 time frame no perimeter player did so. Kobe has shot comparably (46.1% the last two years) on higher volume than he was scoring in the early 00's, and this despite being the primary option. Pierce had both his highest FG% [b]and[/b] higher ppg average in 2006, post-zone. Carter shot comparably in 2007 on similar volume despite being a much older and less explosive player than he was in '00 or '01.

In short: the FG% of these wing players is not a result of the zone.[/QUOTE]

Of course they are going to, they only played one season without zone. You expect them to have a career high in FG% their rookie season? :roll:

Iverson was on a team where he needed to take a lot of shots and at time ill advised. When put on a team with another scorer of course he is going to cut back and take better shots.


Don't kid yourself Loki. The point of a zone is to force jumpshots. If anything you are supporting that players are now better jumpshooters then before if they are able to maintain a similar FG% with more jumpshots.

[QUOTE=plowking]Of course they are going to, they only played one season without zone. You expect them to have a career high in FG% their rookie season? :roll: [/quote]

I threw them in as more evidence that it's possible to shoot a good % against zone.

[quote]Iverson was on a team where he needed to take a lot of shots and at time ill advised. When put on a team with another scorer of course he is going to cut back and take better shots.[/quote]

This was partially my mistake, but my point stands. I meant that AI shot his best FG% of the previous 8 seasons in 2006 while on the Sixers (not Nuggets), under zone rules.

[QUOTE=plowking]The point of a zone is to force jumpshots. If anything you are supporting that players are now better jumpshooters then before if they are able to maintain a similar FG% with more jumpshots.[/QUOTE]

I would love a cite that wing players take more jump shots (not three pointers, that has been increasing ever since it was introduced -- see my prior link) than they used to before the NBA allowed shading and doubling off the ball. I'm honestly curious and would rep you big time if you have something like that. Otherwise you seem to be assuming that players take more jump shots. In my personal subjective opinion I don't think this is true because there are endless star (and lower tier) players who make a living off penetration. I don't think Steve Nash is exactly an athletic phenom. Pierce is strong but he seems to move in slow motion. And so on. But I could be wrong.

[b]EDIT[/b]: Also, Gervin was considered an incredible jump shooter AFAIK, so how this circles back to the actual topic is questionable.

[QUOTE=inclinerator]no he was bleeding had it been a longer fight charles might have been beheaded. not really but he probably would have lost.[/QUOTE]

[B]He was bleeding because the punch razored him a bit but thats not enough to win a fight dummy :rolleyes: Barkley moved and the slow Shaq missed then Charles picked that 350 lbs **** up from the ground in less than second and even his teamates could not move him then he went on top of Shaq his teamates when over to control Charles from punching Shaq. Charles was way stronger than most people think when he had his feet to the ground it was impossible to move him. Shaq was lucky Charles did not smack him while on top.

The camera shows Shaq`s face and the big guy was scared like a baby:oldlol: :pimp: :banghead: :pimp: [/B]

A Prime Gervin could average around 30PPG and challenge for the scoring title depending on what team he was on.

[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]He was bleeding because the punch razored him a bit but thats not enough to win a fight dummy :rolleyes: Barkley moved and the slow Shaq missed then Charles picked that 350 lbs **** up from the ground in less than second and even his teamates could not move him then he went on top of Shaq his teamates when over to control Charles from punching Shaq. Charles was way stronger than most people think when he had his feet to the ground it was impossible to move him. Shaq was lucky Charles did not smack him while on top.

The camera shows Shaq`s face and the big guy was scared like a baby:oldlol: :pimp: :banghead: :pimp: [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree. Personally, I feel that Barkley's "face forward, charge, and punch" and "sidestep and right cross" is far superior to Shaq's "wind up slowly and throw haymaker" and "grab and use my belly."

Personally.

[QUOTE=stephanieg]I would love a cite that wing players take more jump shots (not three pointers, that has been increasing ever since it was introduced -- see my prior link) than they used to before the NBA allowed shading and doubling off the ball. I'm honestly curious and would rep you big time if you have something like that. Otherwise you seem to be assuming that players take more jump shots. In my personal subjective opinion I don't think this is true because there are endless star (and lower tier) players who make a living off penetration. I don't think Steve Nash is exactly an athletic phenom. Pierce is strong but he seems to move in slow motion. And so on. But I could be wrong.

[b]EDIT[/b]: Also, Gervin was considered an incredible jump shooter AFAIK, so how this circles back to the actual topic is questionable.[/QUOTE]

I found some stats, though this included 3 pointers, though I don't see why it shouldn't as it is still a jumpshot. 02-03 was as far back as I could find and 07-08 the most recent. Took your star guards and compared them from the most recent I could find to to furthest back (thus 02-03 and 07-08). In some cases I choose the season prior, like Arenas as he didn't play even half the season. I also chose players season depending on whether their role on the team stayed the same. So for Carter and Iverson I compared them on their former teams where they were the single primary scorer.

Organised by:
Season - percentage of jumpshots taken

Arenas:
02-03 - 68%
06-07 - 75% (Didn't play much this last season so this one was chosen)

Wade
03-04 - 50%
07-08 - 65%

Carmelo
03-04 - 54%
07-08 - 62%

Iverson
02-03 - 72%
06-07 - 74% (Chose this season as he was still with the Sixers this season and had the same role as the season in 02-03)

Bryant
02-03 - 78
07-08 - 74

Nash
02-03 - 72%
07-08 - 85%

McGrady
02-03 - 74%
07-08 - 79%

Hamilton
02-03 - 74%
07-08 - 80%

Carter while on the Raptors
02-03 - 79%
04-05 - 77% (This season choosen as he had a different role on the Nets. Shot 66% this last season)

Billups
Stayed the same

Pierce
Stayed the same

Stojackovic on the Kings
02-03 - 76%
04-05 - 79%

Artest
02-03 - 61%
07-08 - 64%

R. Jefferson
02-03 - 55%
07-08 - 61%

James
03-04 - 67%
07-08 - 60%


Going by those numbers, the trend is that more jumpshots are being taken by players. Bar Kobe and Carter, who already took a lot of jumpshots to begin with, the amount of jumpshots has increased. Also James who now is bigger and just barges his way through the defense.

All numbers and stats can be found here.
[url]http://www.82games.com/FGSORT7.HTM[/url]
[url]http://www.82games.com/teams06.htm[/url]

[QUOTE=Loki]Wing player FG% dropped way before zone started being employed (which was ~2004), so that argument is moot. You're acting like guys like Kobe/TMac/VC/AI were shooting blistering percentages from '99-'04. They weren't.[/QUOTE]

Take a look at the figures I posted above. Most have an increase in jumpshots.

I always fing it funny when old dudes are acting like everything was better in their time...get real people - everything is evolving and improving, that includes basketball as well. Players are taller, bigger, stronger, defences are much tougher to break due to employment of various zone combinations, especially back there in Europe,where coaches are applying different zones for different opponents...NBA as well has gotten better, there are less iso's, 1-on-1 plays, team defence is winning championships ( Spurs, Pistons, recently Celtics). George was a phenomenal player BACK THEN, not so sure he would be as such nowadays with a same skillset, you just never know

[QUOTE=madmax]I always fing it funny when old dudes are acting like everything was better in their time...get real people - everything is evolving and improving, that includes basketball as well. Players are taller, bigger, stronger, defences are much tougher to break due to employment of various zone combinations, especially back there in Europe,where coaches are applying different zones for different opponents...NBA as well has gotten better, there are less iso's, 1-on-1 plays, team defence is winning championships ( Spurs, Pistons, recently Celtics). George was a phenomenal player BACK THEN, not so sure he would be as such nowadays with a same skillset, you just never know[/QUOTE]

[B]Players Bigger? Stronger? False :no: :rolleyes:

Havent seen another 6`5-6`5 bigger or stronger than Barkley yet
Haven`t seen another stronger or taller PG than Magic Johnson yet
Haven`t seen another more agil, athletic or stronger SG than Jorda yet
Haven`t seen another 7`4 PF that can dribble and move like a SG like Ralph Sampson yet.
Haven`t seen another more agil Center than Hakeem yet
Haven`t seen another a 6`10er that has an 8 foot winspan yet like McHale

Players of today are at average more athletic than the past (still have not seen any free throw line dunkers like Jordan, Dr. J, Drexler, Pippen etc) but skill wise, fundamentals wise, b-ball IQ, passing game wise etc they have decreased big time :confusedshrug:

Tougher Defense? With free lines for perimter players? With no handchecking allowed? With touch fouls called? With 5 second rule back to the basket? with no physical play alloed? Funny! [/B]

[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]Players Bigger? Stronger? False :no: :rolleyes:

Havent seen another 6`5-6`5 bigger or stronger than Barkley yet
Haven`t seen another stronger or taller PG than Magic Johnson yet
Haven`t seen another more agil, athletic or stronger SG than Jorda yet
Haven`t seen another 7`4 PF that can dribble and move like a SG like Ralph Sampson yet.
Haven`t seen another more agil Center than Hakeem yet
Haven`t seen another a 6`10er that has an 8 foot winspan yet like McHale

Players of today are at average more athletic than the past (still have not seen any free throw line dunkers like Jordan, Dr. J, Drexler, Pippen etc) but skill wise, fundamentals wise, b-ball IQ, passing game wise etc they have decreased big time :confusedshrug: [/B][/QUOTE]

See that is absolute trash.

I can say we haven't seen a player like Howard ever.
We have never seen a player like James ever.
Ron Artest would give Barkley a run for his money, as well as Big Ben.
A player the size of Yao with the same skillset.

[QUOTE=plowking]See that is absolute trash.

I can say we haven't seen a player like Howard ever.
We have never seen a player like James ever.
Ron Artest would give Barkley a run for his money, as well as Big Ben.
A player the size of Yao with the same skillset.[/QUOTE]

[B]Wrong :confusedshrug:

You still havent named me a 7`4 C-PF like Sampson whom could dribble the ball like a G was as Quick as SG and could leap like a SG

You sill havent named me a 6`9 Point Guard that could Post Up and also play PF-SF like Magic.

You still havent named me SG more athletic, quick and strong as Michael.

You still havent named a 6`4/6`5 dude like Charles whom could rebound amonst Centers and Intimidte the hell out of them to the point they where afraid to even speak to him.

Skilled PFs of today i just see two: Duncan and Garnett other than that skill wise in the 80s and early 90s you had:

James Worthy: 6`9 fastest quickstep onto the rim ever
McHale: 6`10er with an 8 ft winspan that had more Post Moves than any Pf Ever.
Barkley: Greatest Potentent-Speed Of Dribble Scoring PF Ever, Master of the Coast to Coast, Most Unstoppable and Varied Scorer from the 2-Point Line, Greates Low Post Spin Ever for the PF position etc
Malone: 6`9 Built like a Wrester that could Run the Floor Back and Forth like none PF today and his Arms where made of steel.
Ralph Sampson: 7`4 PF that was as quick as the fastest SFs, could handle the ball like a G and could leap like any SF.
Derrick Coleman: With Barkley the Best Ballhandling PF Ever and Best Passing PF Ever, Left hand Mid Range and this man had More Set of Moves and Skills than Duncan had Garnett together
Roy Tarpley. Think of Garnett and James Worthy Mixed Toghether. Defense like Garnett, Skill and Speed like a James Worthy and was lefty too. Scary? Yes.

Any C as quick, agil and skilled as Hakeem today?

Back in the 80s-90s it was Jabbar, Moses Malone, Hakeem, Ewing, Brad Daugherty (Best Ball Handling Center Ever) and Robinson then Shaq

Now today what do we have? Aged Shaq and Yao? thats it!...

Handchecking Dissllowed (Creating False Jordans), 5 Seconds Rule Off the Basket (Anti Stocky Players playing Defense), Puss***** Fouls, Pathetic Passing Game (thank god they are brining in Non American players like Ginobili, Gasol and Nash whom can pass not just fake pass), No Rough Play Inside the Paint etc..

The Leagues Actual Level is Weak: Skill-Fundamentally and Talent Wise.

Period :rolleyes: [/B]

[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]Players Bigger? Stronger? False :no: :rolleyes:

Havent seen another 6`5-6`5 bigger or stronger than Barkley yet
Haven`t seen another stronger or taller PG than Magic Johnson yet
Haven`t seen another more agil, athletic or stronger SG than Jorda yet
Haven`t seen another 7`4 PF that can dribble and move like a SG like Ralph Sampson yet.
Haven`t seen another more agil Center than Hakeem yet
Haven`t seen another a 6`10er that has an 8 foot winspan yet like McHale

Players of today are at average more athletic than the past (still have not seen any free throw line dunkers like Jordan, Dr. J, Drexler, Pippen etc) but skill wise, fundamentals wise, b-ball IQ, passing game wise etc they have decreased big time :confusedshrug:

Tougher Defense? With free lines for perimter players? With no handchecking allowed? With touch fouls called? With 5 second rule back to the basket? with no physical play alloed? Funny! [/B][/QUOTE]

Hows CP3 for fundamentals and passing. Averages less turnovers then almost all point guards before him. Has probably one of the best assist to turnover ratios.

Are you kidding me, look at Vince, the greatest dunker ever. He could dunk it from the free throw line, he simply chose the safe option in the dunk contest.

There is more double teaming now. Players who drive are often greeted by 3 players that collapse on them. Players are forced to take jumpshots.

Also James White absolutely dominantes every free throw line dunker you mentioned. In his last dunk contest in Turkey, he took off a foot behind the line and windmilled it. I'd say thats a lot better then your free throw line dunkers.

BBall IQ? How are we supposed to measure that. People simply come in here and say all the legends had great bball IQ simply to sound knowledgable.

[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]Wrong :confusedshrug:

You still havent named me a 7`4 C-PF like Sampson whom could dribble the ball like a G was as Quick as SG and could leap like a SG

You sill havent named me a 6`9 Point Guard that could Post Up and also play PF-SF like Magic.

You still havent named me SG more athletic, quick and strong as Michael.

You still havent named a 6`4/6`5 dude like Charles whom could rebound amonst Centers and Intimidte the hell out of them to the point they where afraid to even speak to him.

Skilled PFs of today i just see two: Duncan and Garnett other than that skill wise in the 80s and early 90s you had:

James Worthy: 6`9 fastest quickstep onto the rim ever
McHale: 6`10er with an 8 ft winspan that had more Post Moves than any Pf Ever.
Barkley: Greatest Potentent-Speed Of Dribble Scoring PF Ever, Master of the Coast to Coast, Most Unstoppable and Varied Scorer from the 2-Point Line, Greates Low Post Spin Ever for the PF position etc
Malone: 6`9 Built like a Wrester that could Run the Floor Back and Forth like none PF today and his Arms where made of steel.
Ralph Sampson: 7`4 PF that was as quick as the fastest SFs, could handle the ball like a G and could leap like any SF.
Derrick Coleman: Best Ballhandling PF Ever, Second Best Passing PF Ever, Left hand Mid Range and this man had More Set of Moves and Skills than Duncan had Garnett together
Roy Tarpley. Think of Garnett and James Worthy Mixed Toghether. Defense like Garnett skill and Speed like Worthy and was lefty too. Scary? Yes.

Any C as quick, agil and skilled as Hakeem today?

Back in the 80s-90s it was Jabbar, Moses Malone, Hakeem, Ewing, Brad Daugherty (Best Ball Handling Center Ever) and Robinson then Shaq

Now today what do we have? Aged Shaq and Yao? thats it!...

Handchecking Dissllowed (Creating False Jordans), 5 Seconds Rule Off the Basket (Anti Stocky Players playing Defense), Puss***** Fouls, Pathetic Passing Game (thank god they are brining in Non American players like Ginobili, Gasol and Nash whom can pass not just fake pass), No Rough Play Inside the Paint etc..

The Leagues Actual Level is Weak: Skill-Fundamentally and Talent Wise.

Period :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]

Now name me some players back then who compared to the ones I mentioned.

Bryant is very similar to Jordan. Wade is just as strong at 230lbs.

Ron Artest may not be as good a rebounder as Ron Artest but I'm sure he intimidates opponents and is just as strong if not stronger. 6'6 and 260lbs.
Ben Wallace is 6'7 and 255lbs.

Lebron is your modern day Magic buddy.

Hows CP3 for fundamentals and passing. Averages less turnovers then almost all point guards before him. Has probably one of the best assist to turnover ratios.

[B]Less Turnovers because there is no Handchecking:rolleyes: [/B]

Are you kidding me, look at Vince, the greatest dunker ever. He could dunk it from the free throw line, he simply chose the safe option in the dunk contest.

Ok Ill give you out names of great Dunkers of them..Who Tops Them?

[B]Drexler, Air Jordan, Dominique, Dr J could steap dunk from the free throw line and could get his head over the rim in common dunks. Larry Nace and Tom Chambers 6`10 that could leap like SGs. [/B]

There is more double teaming now. Players who drive are often greeted by 3 players that collapse on them. Players are forced to take jumpshots.

[B]More Double Teaming Now? Its the same **** as before in the 80s it was also done to Guard Great Players, the difference is the man you already had could hold you and feel where you went.[/B]

Also James White absolutely dominantes every free throw line dunker you mentioned. In his last dunk contest in Turkey, he took off a foot behind the line and windmilled it. I'd say thats a lot better then your free throw line dunkers.

Could that James White appart from Dunking Play, Score, Pass, Steal etc like Jordan, Drexler, Nique, the Doctor? :oldlol:

BBall IQ? How are we supposed to measure that. People simply come in here and say all the legends had great bball IQ simply to sound knowledgable.[/QUOTE]

[B]IQ is at its lowest ever. Magic said it before in 96, Jordan said it when he retired, Barkley said it, Kukoc said it...etc.:confusedshrug: [/B]

[QUOTE=Sir Charles]Hows CP3 for fundamentals and passing. Averages less turnovers then almost all point guards before him. Has probably one of the best assist to turnover ratios.

[B]Less Turnovers because there is no Handchecking:rolleyes: [/B]

Are you kidding me, look at Vince, the greatest dunker ever. He could dunk it from the free throw line, he simply chose the safe option in the dunk contest.

Ok Ill give you out names of great Dunkers of them..Who Tops Them?

[B]Drexler, Air Jordan, Dominique, Dr J could steap dunk from the free throw line and could get his head over the rim in common dunks. Larry Nace and Tom Chambers 6`10 that could leap like SGs. [/B]

There is more double teaming now. Players who drive are often greeted by 3 players that collapse on them. Players are forced to take jumpshots.

[B]More Double Teaming Now? Its the same **** as before in the 80s it was also done to Guard Great Players, the difference is the man you already had could hold you and feel where you went.[/B]

Also James White absolutely dominantes every free throw line dunker you mentioned. In his last dunk contest in Turkey, he took off a foot behind the line and windmilled it. I'd say thats a lot better then your free throw line dunkers.

Could that James White appart from Dunking Play, Score, Pass, Steal etc like Jordan, Drexler, Nique, the Doctor? :oldlol:

BBall IQ? How are we supposed to measure that. People simply come in here and say all the legends had great bball IQ simply to sound knowledgable.[/QUOTE]

[B]IQ is at its lowest ever. Magic said it before in 96, Jordan said it when he retired, Barkley said it, Kukoc said it...etc.:confusedshrug: [/B][/QUOTE]


Yes, its always handchecking. Well FG% is higher back then due to no zone.

Vince, Josh Smith, Howard, Gerald green could all more then likely get their head at rim level. BTW Vince is a better dunker then all of them. Also Jason Richardson is amazing. Find me any of those guys doing a between the legs off the board.

Howard is 6'11 and is a better dunker then both Chambers and Nance. How about Amare? Still has springs even after surgery.

You asked for guys who could dunk from the free throw line. I gave you one. Far better.


Once again, former players saying that their era is better. Nothing new.

Bryant is very similar to Jordan. Wade is just as strong at 230lbs.

[B]Similar but not evel close Talent, Skill, Athletic, Strength etc wise.

Wade as strong as Jordan? Please...:rolleyes: [/B]

Ron Artest may not be as good a rebounder as Ron Artest but I'm sure he intimidates opponents and is just as strong if not stronger. 6'6 and 260lbs.
Ben Wallace is 6'7 and 255lbs.

[B]Can they out rebound guys like Anthony Mason 6`7 ft 265, Charles Oakley, Rick Mahorn, Karl Malone, Dennis Rodman, McHale, 7`0 Kevin Willis, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Jabbar, Mark Eaton, Daugherty, Webber, Kemp? etc like Barkley did :oldlol: [/B]

Lebron is your modern day Magic buddy

[B][B]Except Magic can Pass Way Better, Create WAY WAY Better, Dribble Way Better, Shoot Way Better from Mid range, THINK WAY WAY BETTER , Rebound Way Better (Can Play PF and C Too), Shoot From the Line Better etc..and Lebron is a SF not a PG...[/B]

The Games Level of Talent/Skill-Fundamentals- Court IQ-Passing Game-Tounghness-Will To Win- Has Gone Down Compared to Before Its a Fact that One Must Learn To Accept[/B]:sleeping

[B]Any 7`4 guy that can Dunk, Leap, As AGil, Quick, Handle the Ball like Sampson today? :no:
Any Center like Hakeem that can play like a SG from the Center Spot?[/B] :no:

[B]Its not former players saying there era was better Magic said it in 95-96 with a worried look on his face in an interview (i will seek for it in youtube it should be there)...1980s draft players ruled the league til 1999 and also ruled the 80s. Very few 1990s draft players where on the level of the 80s draft players, very few.

There is a reason why the NBA`s ratings are not the same as the 90s and 80s.[/B]

[QUOTE=Sir Charles]Bryant is very similar to Jordan. Wade is just as strong at 230lbs.

[B]Similar but not evel close Talent, Skill, Athletic, Strength etc wise.

Wade as strong as Jordan? Please...:rolleyes: [/B]

Ron Artest may not be as good a rebounder as Ron Artest but I'm sure he intimidates opponents and is just as strong if not stronger. 6'6 and 260lbs.
Ben Wallace is 6'7 and 255lbs.

[B]Can they out rebound guys like Anthony Mason 6`7 ft 265, Charles Oakley, Rick Mahorn, Karl Malone, Dennis Rodman, McHale, 7`0 Kevin Willis, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Jabbar, Mark Eaton, Daugherty, Webber, Kemp? etc like Barkley did :oldlol: [/B]

Lebron is your modern day Magic buddy

[B][B]Except Magic can Pass Way Better, Create WAY WAY Better, Dribble Way Better, Shoot Way Better from Mid range, THINK WAY WAY BETTER , Rebound Way Better (Can Play PF and C Too), Shoot From the Line Better etc..and Lebron is a SF not a PG...[/B]

The Games Level of Talent/Skill-Fundamentals- Court IQ-Passing Game-Tounghness-Will To Win- Has Gone Down Compared to Before Its a Fact that One Must Learn To Accept[/B]:sleeping[/QUOTE]

You change your criteria everytime. First you were asking for unique athletes. Then you say "they can't do this, they can't do that", then I find you a player again and the cycle continues.

There are just as many unique players today as before. Find me a player like Lebron. Find me one like Howard. Find me one like Yao.

Go on, I am waiting.