So where would players like Kobe, Wade, Lebron and Duncan be rated if they played in the 80's? Also, what kind of stats would they have averaged?
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So where would players like Kobe, Wade, Lebron and Duncan be rated if they played in the 80's? Also, what kind of stats would they have averaged?
[QUOTE=plowking]So where would players like Kobe, Wade, Lebron and Duncan be rated if they played in the 80's? Also, what kind of stats would they have averaged?[/QUOTE]
It really depends on their team IMO. I think Duncan would be the one who comes out with the most improvement. The Spurs are a plodding team. His scoring wouldn't be too different but his rebounds and assists would look much improved.
If LeBron played in the early 80s he'd be a threat to repeat the Big O's triple double season.
Also, Golden Era? How about Platinum.
He'd certainly be in the Top 3. I think he'd have issues guarding players. Offensively...if Dirk can consistently average around 25 or better on good efficiency; then Bird, being the significantly superior player skill-wise would easily do better. Bird's also not the white stiff he's made out to be. He had the necessary athletic skills requried for an already super-skilled player to be a great scorer - great first step, good agility and body control(superior to Dirk in all 3 of those categories).
And I'm hardly a guy living in the past. I'll be the first to say D is better today then it was pre-mid 90's. Every players' offensive efficiency prior to that period would be lower in today's league. I can't take anyone who disagrees with that seriously.
[QUOTE=plowking]So where would players like Kobe, Wade, Lebron and Duncan be rated if they played in the 80's? Also, what kind of stats would they have averaged?[/QUOTE]
You go first. Curious to see how much you overrate some of these guys.
[QUOTE=miles berg]Bird wasn't even remotely close to being as athletic as Dirk.[/QUOTE]
How old are you?
Dirk couldn't handle the physical punishment Bird took in the post for a week, he would be sitting on the bench icing his hoo hah.
Larry pre back injury in his prime when he won 3 str8t MVPs was more athletic than Dirk for sure.
- He was quicker laterally
- He was stronger and showed it by battling for post position
Look at that play he made in 81 in the playoffs where he shot the 3 and knew it was off right and he followed his shot and baseline he jumped caught it turned and sank the shot as he was fading out of bounds.
Dirk has bad legs, 1 longer than the other and he can't take banging in the post, and lives on the midrange and outside fadeaway, he used to occasionally throw down a jam a few years ago, but there is no way he is a far superior athlete to Bird.
Watch KBlaze's mix, shows some of the physicality of the 80s game and some of Birds ability.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULvo7__wwBU[/url]
Im not saying Dirk is better than Bird circa 80-88, I am just saying that he is better at creating his own shot and is a better penetrator. Birds career best FTA per game is around 6.0 per game, Dirk has topped that in 7 of his 10 seasons with a career high of 9.1 FTA per game. He obviously knows how to penetrate, you don't get those types of FTAs as a big man with very little post game by just shooting jumpshots.
Somewhere in there he has taken his man off of the dribble, the guy has had over four seasons of 7+ FTA per game, he hasn't gotten all of those just standing behind the arc shooting 3s like some of you like to paint his game out to be.
My point is that, yes, Bird would be one of the best players in the league, probably the best since Duncan is one a slow decline and LeBron has yet to reach his peak. Those are the only two in the league that have a shot at Bird, I realize this.
[QUOTE=miles berg]Im not saying Dirk is better than Bird circa 80-88, I am just saying that he is better at creating his own shot and is a better penetrator. Birds career best FTA per game is around 6.0 per game, Dirk has topped that in 7 of his 10 seasons with a career high of 9.1 FTA per game. He obviously knows how to penetrate, you don't get those types of FTAs as a big man with very little post game by just shooting jumpshots.[/quote]
Kobe had 3 seasons of 10+ FTA and another of 9+ FTA shooting jumpers on 80% of his shot attempts, so I'm not sure if that proves anything.
If you want to argue that Dirk is a superior penetrator, fine, it's arguable. But anyone who watched Bird can tell you that he was a better shot creator than Dirk.
[QUOTE=ShamRockStar]How old are you?
Dirk couldn't handle the physical punishment Bird took in the post for a week, he would be sitting on the bench icing his hoo hah.
Larry pre back injury in his prime when he won 3 str8t MVPs was more athletic than Dirk for sure.
- He was quicker laterally
- He was stronger and showed it by battling for post position
Look at that play he made in 81 in the playoffs where he shot the 3 and knew it was off right and he followed his shot and baseline he jumped caught it turned and sank the shot as he was fading out of bounds.
Dirk has bad legs, 1 longer than the other and he can't take banging in the post, and lives on the midrange and outside fadeaway, he used to occasionally throw down a jam a few years ago, but there is no way he is a far superior athlete to Bird.
Watch KBlaze's mix, shows some of the physicality of the 80s game and some of Birds ability.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULvo7__wwBU[/url][/QUOTE]
Again, more generalizations. When is the last time Dirk played in less than 76 games? The guy got his ****ing teeth knocked out in the 2001 playoffs and returned in less than a minutes worth of game time to drop 33 pts on Duncan/Robinson and push the Mavs to a Game 5 in that series. The guy could barely run last year and returned to take the struggling Mavs to the playoffs and then led the entire NBA in PER in the playoffs.
You keep making crap up all you want, no one in the league today plays through more pain than Dirk. The guys ankles have been gone for years and he never misses games, ever. The guy averages over 7 FTA per game but somehow people like you that watch two quarters of Mavs games each year not only draw conclusions about Dirk but pass them off as fact to anyone that will listen to you.
Sorry bud, to answer your question, Im 30, been watching since I was 5 years old in '83, you can't rewrite history for me. Yes, Bird won 3 MVPs in a row, but a strong argument could be made that Dirk should have won in 05/06 and that was without Kevin McHale & Robert Parish with him on the frontline. You tell me, would you be more successful with McHale & Parish or Dampier & Diop?
[QUOTE=Loki]You go first. Curious to see how much you overrate some of these guys.[/QUOTE]
Kobe in his prime, probably a 32, 6 and 6 being his best season.
Lebron due to using brute strength more then anything, would have a best season of maybe 28, 8 and 10 assists.
Wade maybe a 28, 5 and 10 on higher FG% then both Kobe and Lebron.
Duncan, not too sure. I personally think he would come off worst.
[QUOTE=plowking]Kobe in his prime, probably a 32, 6 and 6 being his best season.
Lebron due to using brute strength more then anything, would have a best season of maybe 28, 8 and 10 assists.
Wade maybe a 28, 5 and 10 on higher FG% then both Kobe and Lebron.
Duncan, not too sure.[B] I personally think he would come off worst.[/B][/QUOTE]
why?:confusedshrug:
on set plays at the end of games, Bird would tell the defender that he was going to shoot it from a certain spot and hit it and there was nothing they could do to stop him.
So he could get his shot off on his man when he tells him exactly what he was going to do.
[QUOTE=ShamRockStar]on set plays at the end of games, Bird would tell the defender that he was going to shoot it from a certain spot and hit it and there was nothing they could do to stop him.
So he could get his shot off on his man when he tells him exactly what he was going to do.[/QUOTE]
I was watching a Larry Bird special and that is exactly what he did to Xavier McDaniel during one game. Bird joked that he didn't mean to leave any time on the clock. McDaniel was probably the toughest player in the league during his time, so anyone that could do that to him and live to tell about it has to be a great player.
[QUOTE=plowking]Kobe in his prime, probably a 32, 6 and 6 being his best season.[/quote]
Reasonable, mostly in line with what I think. I'd even say 33-34/6/6 as his best season on like 48% FG or so.
[quote]Lebron due to using brute strength more then anything, would have a best season of maybe 28, 8 and 10 assists.[/quote]
Possibly, but I doubt it. Jordan averaged 29.5 pts/9.5 reb/10.4 ast/52.5% FG over the final 25 games of the '89 season after being moved to PG, but it's a bit different to do it over a full season. Lebron isn't as good as Jordan imo. I'd say 30/8.5/8/51% FG as Lebron's best season. Maybe if he were on a fast-paced team like Denver back then he'd get to 28/8/10. Maybe.
[quote]Wade maybe a 28, 5 and 10 on higher FG% then both Kobe and Lebron.[/quote]
:oldlol:
No way imo. Wade would be around 26-29 pts/6 reb/6.5-8 ast with the best FG% out of the three.
Kobe dropped 35 on a bad knee. He would easily better that healthy in the 80's. Also, plowkings Wade homerism continues to amuse:roll:
[QUOTE=Loki]Reasonable, mostly in line with what I think. I'd even say 33-34/6/6 as his best season on like 48% FG or so.
Possibly, but I doubt it. Jordan averaged 29.5 pts/9.5 reb/10.4 ast/52.5% FG over the final 25 games of the '89 season after being moved to PG, but it's a bit different to do it over a full season. Lebron isn't as good as Jordan imo. I'd say 30/8.5/8/51% FG as Lebron's best season. Maybe if he were on a fast-paced team like Denver back then he'd get to 28/8/10. Maybe.
:oldlol:
No way imo. Wade would be around 26-29 pts/6 reb/6.5-8 ast with the best FG% out of the three.[/QUOTE]
So Wade playing on a half court team averaging 8 assists last year, couldn't average 10 assists in the 80's in a more free flowing game at a faster pace?
[QUOTE=eliteballer]Kobe dropped 35 on a bad knee. He would easily better that healthy in the 80's. Also, plowkings Wade homerism continues to amuse:roll:[/QUOTE]
Where was the homerism?
You are the one saying Kobe could easily drop more then 35. If you noticed, throughout the stats I posted, Wade's line was the least impressive.
Hey guess what, Kobe still couldn't win any championships as the main guy whichever era you put him in.
[QUOTE=D.J.]I was watching a Larry Bird special and that is exactly what he did to Xavier McDaniel during one game. Bird joked that he didn't mean to leave any time on the clock. McDaniel was probably the toughest player in the league during his time, so anyone that could do that to him and live to tell about it has to be a great player.[/QUOTE]
And no one is saying Bird wasn't a great player, he is a top 5 guy all time, IMO #4. I definitely am not saying he wasn't great. He was like my hero growing up. I watched him and his Celtics for four years before I even watched of the Mavs. I didnt have cable, the Mavs werent really great until '87-'88, I never heard about them, I only saw what I saw on TV. I didnt have RAYCOM, I had CBS, and Larry Bird lived there. I remember listening to WBAP Radio and hearing Randy Galloway talk about Mark "McGwire" one day and I asked my dad how the Mavs (had vaguely heard of them) got Mark McGwire when he was a baseball player? It was then when I learned all about Mark Aguirre & the Mavs. I then started going to my friends house so I could watch Mavs games on cable and the rest is history.
I am just saying that todays players are grrrreat players that dont have the 15 years of nostalgia in their favor. Everyone keeps posting youtubes of these great players but I could just as easily post the youtube of TMac (48) -vs- Dirk (53) and make Dirk looks superhuman.
I think the Golden Era of the NBA was the 80-93 era, especially the pre-expansion 80s where the salaries were in control, free agency was non-existant, and the league was so great, 24 or so teams and the best teams having 3 or more great players. I just think that todays players are overlooked.
Well, let's see. Kobe averaged 35 per game on a chronically bad knee that need surgery in THIS era. Since you believe it would be easier in the 80's, it's safe to say you would AGREE that a healthy Kobe in that era would easily do 35+. As for Wade, his best season playing more than 50 games he averaged 27 ppg, 6 rpg, 7 apg. How all of a sudden his stats jump like that when he wouldnt' have a 20/9 Shaq I dont know
[QUOTE=eliteballer]Kobe dropped 35 on a bad knee. He would easily better that healthy in the 80's. Also, plowkings Wade homerism continues to amuse:roll:[/QUOTE]
Yes you are right, the stat lines I posted were absurd. Let me try again:
Kobe: 45, 8, 9 on 57% shooting
Wade: 11, 2, 4 on 39%
Lebron: 17, 6 and 3 on 42%
That looks a lot better.
[QUOTE=miles berg]And no one is saying Bird wasn't a great player, he is a top 5 guy all time, IMO #4. I definitely am not saying he wasn't great. He was like my hero growing up. I watched him and his Celtics for four years before I even watched of the Mavs. I didnt have cable, the Mavs werent really great until '87-'88, I never heard about them, I only saw what I saw on TV. I didnt have RAYCOM, I had CBS, and Larry Bird lived there. I remember listening to WBAP Radio and hearing Randy Galloway talk about Mark "McGwire" one day and I asked my dad how the Mavs (had vaguely heard of them) got Mark McGwire when he was a baseball player? It was then when I learned all about Mark Aguirre & the Mavs. I then started going to my friends house so I could watch Mavs games on cable and the rest is history.
I am just saying that todays players are grrrreat players that dont have the 15 years of nostalgia in their favor. Everyone keeps posting youtubes of these great players but I could just as easily post the youtube of TMac (48) -vs- Dirk (53) and make Dirk looks superhuman.
I think the Golden Era of the NBA was the 80-93 era, especially the pre-expansion 80s where the salaries were in control, free agency was non-existant, and the league was so great, 24 or so teams and the best teams having 3 or more great players. I just think that todays players are overlooked.[/QUOTE]
There are some great players today. Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Dwight Howard, and Garnett are just some of those players. The main difference between players today and those that played in the 90s and prior is the fundamentals. The players today are easily more athletic and in better physical condition, but it seems as if that's where they spend most of their time.
Bird is easily top five in the all-time list. Number four very well may be the case. I started watching the NBA in '86 and I believe the golden years ended a little more than 10 years ago. I enjoyed watching the NBA in the late 80s and early 90s.
Bottom line is some of the current players are overlooked, but the majority are no where near the guys from 15+ years ago and that is why guys like Kobe and LeBron are overlooked.
[QUOTE=eliteballer]Well, let's see. Kobe averaged 35 per game on a chronically bad knee that need surgery in THIS era. Since you believe it would be easier in the 80's, it's safe to say you would AGREE that a healthy Kobe in that era would easily do 35+. As for Wade, his best season playing more than 50 games he averaged 27 ppg, 6 rpg, 7 apg. How all of a sudden his stats jump like that when he wouldnt' have a 20/9 Shaq I dont know[/QUOTE]
How would Kobe win a championship without Shaq?
I focused on different rule changes, and mentioned that players score in different ways today. I even said in an earlier post that the late 80's, early 90's were the peak. More due to the entertainment purpose and the free flowing game.
Who says Kobe couldn't score more back then? I simply said that would be his best season, not best scoring season. All you Kobe fanboys are obsessed with his scoring numbers, thinking if you have the most points you are the best. I don't even consider Kobe's 35ppg season his best.
Let me put it this way plowking. You're basically saying Wade would be dropping a better statline than Bird and Magic. Get real:oldlol:
[QUOTE=D.J.]There are some great players today. Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Dwight Howard, and Garnett are just some of those players. The main difference between players today and those that played in the 90s and prior is the fundamentals. The players today are easily more athletic and in better physical condition, but it seems as if that's where they spend most of their time.
Bird is easily top five in the all-time list. Number four very well may be the case. I started watching the NBA in '86 and I believe the golden years ended a little more than 10 years ago. I enjoyed watching the NBA in the late 80s and early 90s.
Bottom line is some of the current players are overlooked, but the majority are no where near the guys from 15+ years ago and that is why guys like Kobe and LeBron are overlooked.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I dont think either of those guys are overlooked. I am talking about guys like Dirk & Steve Nash (he is so hated on it is ridiculous, watch the guy play, it is like art). These guys get absolutely zero respect but, year after year, they accomplish as much, if not more, than anyone not named Shaq or Duncan.
Oh well, I am done ranting.
[QUOTE=plowking]Yes you are right, the stat lines I posted were absurd. Let me try again:
Kobe: 45, 8, 9 on 57% shooting
Wade: 11, 2, 4 on 39%
Lebron: 17, 6 and 3 on 42%
That looks a lot better.[/QUOTE]
stop underrating Kobe you dirty hater:no:
[QUOTE=eliteballer]Let me put it this way plowking. You're basically saying Wade would be dropping a better statline than Bird and Magic. Get real:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
You are saying the same thing about Kobe.
Since when is Kobe miles better then Wade? Oh wait, he's not.
[QUOTE=eliteballer]Kobe dropped 35 on a bad knee. He would easily better that healthy in the 80's. Also, plowkings Wade homerism continues to amuse:roll:[/QUOTE]
He wouldn't be getting nearly as many FT's in the 80's, and if he was, it would mean that he wasn't taking (and hence not making) as many 3's. This would be balanced by a higher overall FG% to bring him to about what I said he'd average.
[QUOTE=eliteballer]Let me put it this way plowking. You're basically saying Wade would be dropping a better statline than Bird and Magic. Get real:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
And you think Kobe would post and equal or better line than Jordan. Which is more crazy? :oldlol:
[QUOTE=Loki]He wouldn't be getting nearly as many FT's in the 80's, and if he was, he wouldn't be taking (and hence not making) as many 3's. This would be balanced by a higher overall FG% to bring him to about what I said he'd average.[/QUOTE]
He fails to understand. If you noticed eliteballer, due to zone, players have been forced to take more jumpshots, particullarly 3's. Now that Kobe wouldn't be forced by the zone into jumpshots, he would take less 3's and go to the hole more (like he should have against Boston in the finals).
What is the average FTA/game in 1988 -vs- the average FTA/game in 2008?
I would just like to know.
So Loki you believe Wade would not be able to average 2 more assists in a faster paced basketball era which was more free flowing and less stop-start? I disagree. After all I said this would be his best season.
After all, Wade has a very good apg career average. Probably one of the best for SG's. I honestly believe he would be able to pull those numbers.
[QUOTE=miles berg]What is the average FTA/game in 1988 -vs- the average FTA/game in 2008?
I would just like to know.[/QUOTE]
1987-88- 29.1
2007-08- 24.9
[QUOTE=D.J.]1987-88- 29.1
2007-08- 24.9[/QUOTE]
Where did you get those stats?
[QUOTE=plowking]Where did you get those stats?[/QUOTE]
Basketball reference. It was the league average for those seasons.
That is a very, very interesting and telling stat Dr. J.
Anyone want to bet this guy started this thread in hopes it would turn into a, "OMG YOU DIDNT NAME KOBE OR WADE AS TOP PLAYERS BLAH BLAH BLAH" lol.
[B]Where did all the Kiddos Go? :rolleyes: :roll: [/B]
[QUOTE=Sir Charles]:applause: :roll: :ohwell:
[B]Bird Would School the NBA filled with thugs that can jump cool but don`t know how to think, playr and lack fundamentals[/B][/QUOTE]
this is the second time you mentioned todays nba players as thugs. the nba doesnt have a bunch of thugs were are you getting this from? i cant even think of a thug in the nba now.
[QUOTE=plowking]Yes you are right, the stat lines I posted were absurd. Let me try again:
Kobe: 45, 8, 9 on 57% shooting
Wade: 11, 2, 4 on 39%
Lebron: 17, 6 and 3 on 42%
That looks a lot better.[/QUOTE]
lol good one
I posted this in another forum's thread about basketball, and why "white Euros" are doing better in the NBA than "white Americans":
[QUOTE]Because foreign countries focus on fundamentals, something anyone can learn if they put in the hard work, regardless of how athletic you are (you do have to have some degree of athletic ability, of course, but you know what I mean).
In America, it's all about money, and David Stern made the mistake in thinking that what we want to see is flashy, above-the-rim basketball. Before he embraced the triangle offense and developed a consistent jump shot, Michael Jordan, even though I consider him the most dominant athlete in the history of team sports, was largely to blame for this. Before MJ took off, the Pistons, Celtics, and Lakers were winning with well-executed, efficient, fundamental basketball. But "Be Like Mike" didn't exactly imply running the three man weave or pick and roll drills. So you had a generation of young boys who would go on to be today's NBAers practicing their dunks on 7-foot rims instead of developing their jump shot or ball handling skills or the art of the bounce pass.
MJ's enormous popularity and Stern's intent to capitalize on it had a trickle down effect. A new trend began. NBA franchises bought into the idea that this above-the-rim style would put more fans in their arenas, and everyone wanted to draft the next Air Jordan. College basketball programs and coaches are judged largely by the number of players they put into the NBA, so a lot college coaches began recruiting based on a kid's vertical leap. The less athletic kids rode the pine and were never really developed. Top high school basketball programs earn that designation because they get their players recruited. So during tryouts, the kid with the nice jumper and basketball instinct is passed over for the kid who can dunk.
Lost amidst this revolution of new, exciting ball being dominated by freakish athletic specimens, was fundamentals. But what Stern, NBA franchises, college programs, and high school programs all failed to realize, is that there is, and will only ever be, one Michael Jordan.
So unless they're there to simply be a big body or a one-dimensional 3-point specialist, white Americans have basically become obsolete in today's NBA. The few that do make it into the league are generally less athletic and don't posses the fundamental skills they should have received in college that their European counterparts have been drilled on since their youths.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f74/white-americans-nba-820805/#post24673306[/url]
Might be a bit deep for this forum, but I think it presents a sound argument for Larry Bird in today's NBA.
ahh the good old days.