Insider: Who's better Kobe vs Lebron

[QUOTE=plowking]How am I a Kobe fan? I support the Heat...

Kobe is a better scorer, shooter, defender... Furthermore, they're equal rebounders if anything, with Kobe being better this year. Lebron is only grabbing 1 offensive rebound per game to Kobe's 1.3. Defensive rebounding for wings is the most overrated thing, especially for Lebron considering his team gets out of the way for him on rebounds to start the offense, unlike Kobe.

So a better playmaker and 3pt shooter, and the 3pt shooting won't be the case at the end of the season.

Kobe's influence on a game goes beyond stats. I was one to scoff at this as well, and this is after watching him. Though now I really do see that he impacts the game more than anyone in the NBA today.

Lebron still has a problem that Carmelo had a while back; and a young Jordan may I add. He thinks that proving basketball worth all shows up on the stat sheet, when it is far from the truth.[/QUOTE]
Plowking is my favorite poster on ISH

Nicolas Batum puts it best: :oldlol:

For LeBron, I was told "stay back and avoid letting him in the paint. It's better to let him shoot." For Kobe, it's "good luck."

[QUOTE=Simple Jack]We are talking about impact on the court here, not skill.

Earl Boykins is more skilled than Shaq, that doesn't make him better.

Let me guess, Kobe is a better passer too? Or just more skilled...[/QUOTE]

Terrible thing to say that Boykins is more skilled than Shaq.

kobe by a mile

[QUOTE=Bodhi]I agree with this. There's a debate for a reason and everyone agrees that Kobe and Lebron are the 1/2 guys in the league. If you can't understand why somebody would have one over the other then you're just not doing a very good job at analyzing the game.[/QUOTE]



I don't think there should be a debate among educated basketball fans, such as the ones (some of the ones at least) on this forum, that Lebron is the clear cut best player in the league and Kobe Bryant is second. Yes, a majority of the players in the league will tell the media that Kobe is the best, but I think that has much more to do with the rings and the Kobe hype as it does with the facts. I will admit that I am sometimes guilty at looking at stats too much, but they rarely lie and in the debate between Kobe and Lebron they tell us very very clearly that Lebron is the superior player.

So Kobe's argument must be with his ability to close out games, his leadership on and off the court, and most importantly for Kobe homers, his 4 shiny championship rings. Lebron is one of the great leaders in the league, and lest you forget it was him that rose to the head of the Olympic team. Kobe was mentioned as the 'leader who led by example', which sounds like bull**** frankly. Kobe is clutch as they come but come on, Lebron is nearly as good down the stretch of games, just look at the Magic playoff game last year. The rings, meh, I'll give them to Kobe but remember that he was NOT the number one option on the first 3, and was playing on a stacked Lakers team last year, not to mention that he has had possibly the greatest coach of all time on his bench for his entire career.

So, frankly, you can insult my basketball analysis all you want but I still won't suffer serious basketball fans who think Kobe is better than Lebron, because obviously their view is clouded by some bias.

#8 kobe > lebron

#24 kobe < lebron

I don't have any problems with people who say Lebron is better than Kobe (though I disagree with them), but their reasoning has to stand up. I have a problem with people saying "Lebron is better because he shoots better" or "Lebron is more clutch than Kobe because he has a higher FG% in the last 5 minutes of a game" then all it shows is that they don't understand what they are watching in basketball, if they watch it at all. When people say "Lebron is a more skilled passer because he has more assists" you can tell their basketball IQ is just bad.

[QUOTE=Simple Jack]Pippen has said Bron, so has Jerry West. A bunch of players have as well. Their opinions mean more than yours, I win! I can pull rank too. It's a weak argument.[/QUOTE]

West immediately after said Kobe. Many thought he said it simply to spur Kobe on in the finals, and I agree.

[QUOTE=Simple Jack]This is a first by the way; I've heard anyone try to argue Kobe as a better rebounder than LeBron.

ISH, where trolling happens.[/QUOTE]

You still can't read. I said, if anything they are equal. Seeing as neither of the players battle for defensive rebounds, and simply get the ones that land in their lap, or in Lebron's case, the ones that are pretty much given to him by his teammates by moving out of the way, offensive rebounds would be the best way to compare the rebounding of the two. Seeing as Kobe is getting more this season, I'd say he's doing a better job.

[QUOTE=krazy19]Terrible thing to say that Boykins is more skilled than Shaq.[/QUOTE]

No it's not. He's 5'5; are you aware how much skill you have to have in order to play in the NBA at that height?

[QUOTE=plowking]You still can't read. I said, if anything they are equal. Seeing as neither of the players battle for defensive rebounds, and simply get the ones that land in their lap, or in Lebron's case, the ones that are pretty much given to him by his teammates by moving out of the way, offensive rebounds would be the best way to compare the rebounding of the two. Seeing as Kobe is getting more this season, I'd say he's doing a better job.[/QUOTE]

Or how about being an impressive rebounder on one of the best rebounding teams in the league year in year out?

LeBron is the more athletic, skilled rebounder by a large margin. He's a leading rebounder among SF's every year and yet Kobe, who isn't recognized at all for his rebounding ability, is on par with LeBron.

Again, this is the first time I'm hearing someone argue this.

On a side note, claiming LeBron's rebounds come from his teammates moving to the side and "letting" him grab them is just hating.

"All of Kobe's assists are just his teammates getting in good position and them making great plays after a mediocre pass".

You have my vote for worst poster on ISH after Fatal. I usually skip your posts but this time I had to reply.

[QUOTE=plowking]West immediately after said Kobe. Many thought he said it simply to spur Kobe on in the finals, and I agree.[/QUOTE]

And many thought he said Kobe after (talked about Kobe more in terms of being clutch rather than overall a better player) because of the media coverage his comment got and not to "demean Kobe".

And you're just a typical generic poster who cries "hater" when someone points out something bad about his favorite player. Yeah bro, I hate Bron. I dislike watching one of the best talents the NBA has produced. It just sickens me... :rolleyes:

I think Kobe is the better player and I have stated why. A better scorer, shooter, defender. Equal in rebounding and Lebron ahead in playmaking. Not to mention Kobe is more clutch.

[QUOTE=HighFlyer23]#8 kobe > lebron

#24 kobe < lebron[/QUOTE]

Other way around


#24 Kobe>Lebron

Lebron#8 Kobe

24 is Kobe's real prime he's a much smarter player improved his passing and his post game and really just became much more mature.

This whole article is laughable & loses any and all integrity when it refers to the Lakers and Cavs meeting on Christmas for the second straight year, when in reality, they didn't even play each other on Christmas last year. That is a good indicator of what kind of "extensive" research this LeBron fanboy disguised as an ESPN reporter put into this article.

LeBron being picked as the better midrange shooter just shows the ignorance and stupidity of this reporter... same thing with LeBron being picked as the better primary defender. Kobe was the clearly superior player in both aspects just 2 seasons ago, and I will admit that LeBron has shown some noticeable improvement in both areas... but suddenly just because he's improved a little bit he's now considered better than Kobe? Kobe having a night where his midrange J isn't falling is about as common as a night where LeBron's is falling. Dunks do not equate to a midrange shot.

Also, LeBron lost any and all credibility to me as far as being considered this great man-to-man defender that he's been getting hyped up as lately with his showing in the ECF last year. A great PRIMARY DEFENDER with LeBron's size and athleticism doesn't cop out and guard Rafer Alston when 6'10" guys like Turkoglu and Lewis are out there burning your team just asking to be guarded by somebody. Guys like Kobe and Jordan wouldn't take that route. Hell, in the WCF last year when Melo was abusing Ariza and Walton in a couple of the games, Kobe got sick and tired of it and took to guarding Melo despite giving up 2 or 3 inches in height and 30 to 40 pounds.

[QUOTE=plowking]And you're just a typical generic poster who cries "hater" when someone points out something bad about his favorite player. Yeah bro, I hate Bron. I dislike watching one of the best talents the NBA has produced. It just sickens me... :rolleyes:

I think Kobe is the better player and I have stated why. A better scorer, shooter, defender. Equal in rebounding and Lebron ahead in playmaking. Not to mention Kobe is more clutch.[/QUOTE]

No, you're a hater because you made a ridiculous claim that I can't even begin to fathom, and pass it off as if everyone should have already known.

I'm not your "bro".

[QUOTE=MBC2K4]This whole article is laughable & loses any and all integrity when it refers to the Lakers and Cavs meeting on Christmas for the second straight year, when in reality, they didn't even play each other on Christmas last year. That is a good indicator of what kind of "extensive" research this LeBron fanboy disguised as an ESPN reporter put into this article.

LeBron being picked as the better midrange shooter just shows the ignorance and stupidity of this reporter... same thing with LeBron being picked as the better primary defender. Kobe was the clearly superior player in both aspects just 2 seasons ago, and I will admit that LeBron has shown some noticeable improvement in both areas... but suddenly just because he's improved a little bit he's now considered better than Kobe? Kobe having a night where his midrange J isn't falling is about as common as a night where LeBron's is falling. Dunks do not equate to a midrange shot.

Also, LeBron lost any and all credibility to me as far as being considered this great man-to-man defender that he's been getting hyped up as lately with his showing in the ECF last year. A great PRIMARY DEFENDER with LeBron's size and athleticism doesn't cop out and guard Rafer Alston when 6'10" guys like Turkoglu and Lewis are out there burning your team just asking to be guarded by somebody. Guys like Kobe and Jordan wouldn't take that route. Hell, in the WCF last year when Melo was abusing Ariza and Walton in a couple of the games, Kobe got sick and tired of it and took to guarding Melo despite giving up 2 or 3 inches in height and 30 to 40 pounds.[/QUOTE]

That's more up to the coach if anything.

On jump-shots alone this year, the difference is close to 3% for Kobe, hardly a large margin as you make it out to be.

Kobe has been the better defender for LeBron's time in the league up until last year. LeBron was the better help defender, and man defender. There's statistics to prove it if you don't believe me, but watching the game would show you how big of a change LeBron made in terms of primary D while Kobe took a step back from his lock-down defensive ways (taking way too many passing lane gambles and overall seemed to be much more lazy on defense than in years past). I know you guys hate mathematics and objective reasoning, but the defensive rating/win-shares give you a good idea of what I'm talking about.

LeBron is not a great man defender. The guy usually defends the weakest perimeter player on the opposing team and roams around in the passing lanes and this also enables him to be a weakside shot blocker. For some reason people make him out to be the second coming of Bruce Bowen or something & I just don't get it. He struggled with Alston at times in the ECF last year and wanted no part of stepping up and defending Lewis or Turkoglu; two guys that a supposed great athletic man defender like LeBron should've been salivating at the opportunity to guard under such circumstances. I'll give it to you that LeBron is a better secondary defender than Kobe but no chance in hell is he a better primary defender.

[QUOTE=Simple Jack]No, you're a hater because you made a ridiculous claim that I can't even begin to fathom, and pass it off as if everyone should have already known.

[B]I'm not your "bro"[/B].[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

Typical generic poster with the generic line. You pretty much just proved me right.

Nice one.

:roll:

[QUOTE=Simple Jack][B]Kobe has been the better defender for LeBron's time in the league up until last year. LeBron was the better help defender, and man defender. [/B]There's statistics to prove it if you don't believe me, but watching the game would show you how big of a change LeBron made in terms of primary D while Kobe took a step back from his lock-down defensive ways (taking way too many passing lane gambles and overall seemed to be much more lazy on defense than in years past). I know you guys hate mathematics and objective reasoning, but the defensive rating/win-shares give you a good idea of what I'm talking about.[/QUOTE]

Alright then. Where are these statistics that 'prove' what is in bold?

In terms of the mid-range game, here's are breakdown of both players' shooting.

[IMG]http://www.dmjfly.com/hotzone/kobehotspot.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.dmjfly.com/hotzone/lebronhotspot.jpg[/IMG]

Bryant's shooting about 3% better than Lebron from range above the free throw line.

For all shots within the three, but not at the rim, Bryant is shooting 47.6%. Lebron is shooting 39.2%. Lebron makes up for this with his ability to get to the rim and finish and his superior three point shooting over Bryant this season, but Bryant's mid-range game is better, no doubt about it.

[QUOTE=Simple Jack]No, you're a hater because [B]you made a ridiculous claim that I can't even begin to fathom[/B], and pass it off as if everyone should have already known.

I'm not your "bro".[/QUOTE]

Says the guy who JUST claimed Boykins is more skilled than Shaq. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[QUOTE=MBC2K4]LeBron is not a great man defender. The guy usually defends the weakest perimeter player on the opposing team and roams around in the passing lanes and this also enables him to be a weakside shot blocker. For some reason people make him out to be the second coming of Bruce Bowen or something & I just don't get it. He struggled with Alston at times in the ECF last year and wanted no part of stepping up and defending Lewis or Turkoglu; two guys that a supposed great athletic man defender like LeBron should've been salivating at the opportunity to guard under such circumstances. I'll give it to you that LeBron is a better secondary defender than Kobe but no chance in hell is he a better primary defender.[/QUOTE]


Check the opponents FG % in relation to their average. He's one of the only defenders who actually is effective on Kobe. There was a stretch last year in like 4 consecutive games where he kept Granger, Pierce i believe, Wallace, and another to such a low FG % it was laughable. His weakside D is obviously great because of his athleticism and great timing, but in addition, his man D took a huge jump last year.

[QUOTE=Doranku]Says the guy who JUST claimed Boykins is more skilled than Shaq. :roll: :roll: :roll:[/QUOTE]

I'm going to guess you never played basketball in your life.

Being 5'5 playing against people who are on average a foot taller than you is absolutely insane. The fact that he made the NBA, let alone that he's rather successful and had stints of playing extremely well during his career is something I can't even fathom.

If you played basketball you'd have an idea of what I'm talking about.

[QUOTE=MBC2K4]LeBron usually defends the weakest perimeter player on the opposing team and roams around in the passing lanes and this also enables him to be a weakside shot blocker.[/QUOTE]

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

[QUOTE=plowking]:oldlol:

Typical generic poster with the generic line. You pretty much just proved me right.

Nice one.

:roll:[/QUOTE]

Please teach me how to be cool like you plowking. I know it's a burden being that cool, but I can handle it!

[QUOTE=psyentist]Alright then. Where are these statistics that 'prove' what is in bold?[/QUOTE]


Defensive rating? Defensive win-shares? Opponents FG relative to their averages?

Check them all out from last year...

Kobe is the most over rated defender ever.

[QUOTE=Pharcyde]Kobe is the most over rated defender ever.[/QUOTE]

it's like the word "overrated" is synonymous to Kobe - everything he does is exaggerated and put on pedestal by his worshippers...They are even arguing the numbers which favour Lebron and calling them "flawed":roll: Somebody explain to me, how clear unbiased statistic measures can be innacurate?:hammerhead:

[QUOTE=madmax]it's like the word "overrated" is synonymous to Kobe - everything he does is exaggerated and put on pedestal by his worshippers...They are even arguing the numbers which favour Lebron and calling them "flawed":roll: Somebody explain to me, how clear unbiased statistic measures can be innacurate?:hammerhead:[/QUOTE]


I think he's a great player, but using his defense as the decision maker in him vs. Lebron is stupid. Both are inconsistent and overrated at it. Yet Kobe is still held as such an awesome defender.

Here are the stats:
Lebron -
28.8 PPG
7.8 APG
7.1 RPG
.8 BPG
1.3 SPG

Kobe -
29.3 PPG
4.2 APG
5.6 RPG
.3 BPG
2.2 SPG

So, Kobe beats Lebron in points right now, but he's also averaging more shots per game.
Lebron gets to the free throw line more at 9.1 compared to Kobe's 7.8.
Lebron's TS% is .599, Kobe's is .567.

I just don't see a real clear cut winner, but I give it to Lebron. I think they are both great though.

And no, I don't care that Kobe has 4 rings because accolades don't define anything for a player not even in his prime yet.

[QUOTE=Simple Jack]I'm going to guess you never played basketball in your life.

Being 5'5 playing against people who are on average a foot taller than you is absolutely insane. The fact that he made the NBA, let alone that he's rather successful and had stints of playing extremely well during his career is something I can't even fathom.

If you played basketball you'd have an idea of what I'm talking about.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol: You can use the height excuse to try and spin this all you want. Fact remains, there's no way a career 11 ppg role player is more skilled than a career 24/11 player over 18 years who arguably had the most dominant prime EVER.

You must think Iverson is the GOAT with the ridiculous amount of emphais you place on height. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Doranku]:oldlol: You can use the height excuse to try and spin this all you want. Fact remains, there's no way a career 11 ppg role player is more skilled than a career 24/11 player over 18 years who arguably had the most dominant prime EVER.

You must think Iverson is the GOAT with the ridiculous amount of emphais you place on height. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

You're an idiot; that's the point I'm trying to make. Skill doesn't mean much; it's about IMPACT and how you affect the game. I don't care if you can hit full court shots blindfolded, it matters what you do in the game. The point was, there are a lot of players more "skilled" than Shaq, but he has a huge impact on the game and that's the ONLY thing that matters.