Shaq 96-2002 versus 87-93 Jordan

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Your agenda? Propping up Jordan, diminishing Pippen. Does that mean that is all you post about? No, but not all of my posts are about Jordan either. How many Jordan threads have I ever posted? Most of the MJ threads I have made actually were pro-MJ (from when I first joined ISH)...



Yeah, I meant 94-06'. BTW I did list his whole record. I even included this year (10-5 at the time). The 94-06' thing was because the thread was an advocacy thread for Shaq.



There is nothing wrong with it but there also is nothing wrong with the obvious response that will trigger. Jordan fans love saying it when it comes to everyone else but complain when the same thing is done with respect to Jordan.



? I haven't seen that since I have been here. How many Bird, Kareem, or Magic threads are there? If you read this forum you would think the NBA began in 1990.

It isn't just you. I never see any of the "reasonable" MJ fans correct some blatant misconceptions even when they are in the thread responding to other things. They ignore them because, for whatever reason, MJ fans as a group think Pippen looking worse will somehow elevate Jordan. The last time I checked he is #1 on 90% of lists. He is high as he can go.



Can you explain this Kobe/Pippen thing I keep hearing MJ fans talk about? I said the following in another thread:





Jordan fans as a group here underrate him. He is almost always 25th, give or take a few spots, on lists. They will say he is top 35, top 40, one guy says he is not top 50, another somehow claims that Pippen is top 25 yet peak Pippen would not even be top 5 today. There are just guys who have stated their rankings. Then there are others. I don't want to name names because it isn't personal but I didn't make these people up (if you think I made them up shoot me a PM). Three of them are in most Pippen threads and one used to be but doesn't post much anymore. Da_Realist and you rate him highly, although you are a strange case since you only talk about him in a negative manner. You are like OldSchoolBBall in that sense, although I get the vibe that OSB genuinely dislikes Pip and you don't. At best you will say "He was a great player but he was overrated for the following ten reasons". :oldlol:

The irony is I have Jordan #3 or #4 all-time and concede he has a case for GOAT. I am in the ballpark with him. I have Pippen 18th-20th. In other words, I am off only a few spots from his average ranking but what do you expect from a Pippen fan and plus I weight winning. The typical MJ fan here is farther off from Pippen's typical ranking then I am on Pippen or Jordan. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
LOL Your first statement about pro Mj thread sounds just like Fatal. He says the same crap. How is ranking Pippen 25th wrong?? You have Pippen 7 spots from where he is normally at. 3 away from 10. You act like people can't see your agenda here man. It's been obvious from the start. Some Mj trolls didn't agree with you on Pip and bashed him, so u go on missions in every thread to downgrade MJ. In the last 4 months u dropped MJ from 1st to 4th. LOL Give it up you tool.

[QUOTE]Your first statement about pro Mj thread sounds just like Fatal. He says the same crap. H[/QUOTE]

Fatal? You mean the guy I argued with that MJ was the GOAT?

Pippen 25th is not wrong. Neither is having him 5th or 95th btw. People can have opinions. That is why we have a place like this. What I said is the typical ranking is him 25th, give or take a few spots. 35th, 40th, outside the top 50 is way off the mark. :oldlol: @ you saying prime Pippen would be just another top 10 player if he played today and then saying I am way off the mark for saying MJ is #3 or #4 all-time.

[QUOTE]It's been obvious from the start.[/QUOTE]

Really? Is that why I saw MJ fans pasting a thread I made when I first joined ISH elsewhere on the internet?

[QUOTE]Some Mj trolls didn't agree with you on Pip and bashed him[/QUOTE]

Your words, not mine. They did it before I got here. Do you think I signed up the first time I read this forum? The Pip bashing is what caused me to move from a lurker to sign up. After posting here for a while and getting to know posters I noticed 90% of the people bashing Pippen "happen" to be MJ fans.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Fatal? You mean the guy I argued with that MJ was the GOAT?

Pippen 25th is not wrong. Neither is having him 5th or 95th btw. People can have opinions. That is why we have a place like this. What I said is the typical ranking is him 25th, give or take a few spots. 35th, 40th, outside the top 50 is way off the mark. :oldlol: @ you saying prime Pippen would be just another top 10 player if he played today and then saying I am way off the mark for saying MJ is #3 or #4 all-time.



Really? Is that why I saw MJ fans pasting a thread I made when I first joined ISH elsewhere on the internet?



Your words, not mine. They did it before I got here. Do you think I signed up the first time I read this forum? The Pip bashing is what caused me to move from a lurker to sign up. After posting here for a while and getting to know posters I noticed 90% of the people bashing Pippen "happen" to be MJ fans.[/QUOTE]
I find it funny you were a lurker, but you said you never seen Fatal BS 2008 year posts???? LOL DuH MJ fans bash Pippen because Kobe fans used Pip. They are trolls its wat they do. Just like Mj fans use Shaq and gasol to degrade Pip. :confusedshrug:

:oldlol: do you think an opinion person like me lurked for over a year before joining? I lurked for about 2 months.

[QUOTE]MJ fans bash Pippen because Kobe fans used Pip.[/QUOTE]

Where? Who? Can you respond to:

[QUOTE]MJ fans. You are a Bulls fan. There is a difference. Only a couple of these MJ fans are Bulls fans (guy, Samuri to name two). You never see most of them defending Rose or talking about what the Bulls should do in 2010 or in a Bulls game thread. Look at any Pippen thread and note who it is who is bashing him. It is the same dozen or so posters and 90% of them aren't Oscar Robertson or Vince Carter fans.

They hide behind Kobe and say they launched a crusade against Pip because Kobe fans "overrate Pippen." Evidently the grand plan is to elevate Pippen to diminish MJ from #1 all-time to #2 or #3 all-time (because somehow elevating Pippen will downgrade Jordan, even though Kareem played with Magic, Wilt with West, etc.) so Kobe can overtake MJ by going from #10 all-time to...#10 all-time. Hey, that is their theory! However, that excuse doesn't fly. You will also notice in those threads that hardly any Kobe fans defend Pippen. It is always Bulls/Pippen fans like me, 97 bulls, kshutts, and hitmary along with a few random people in a given thread. The only Kobe fan who consistently defends Pippen is soopa. If there is a vast Kobe fan conspiracy to elevate Pippen most Kobe fans missed the memo. Besides, it is an idiotic theory. So idiotic that MJ fans should not take it seriously. How exactly would Pippen being viewed as great cause Jordan to tumble from #1 in most eyes? All the greats played with great players when they won rings, some of them with players greater than Pippen. They will probably say "Shaq!". Get real. Everyone knows Shaq>Pippen. Besides, 99% of people on this board believe MJ>Kobe. There is no legit comparison or competition between MJ and Kobe. So why the crusade against a "threat" that does not exist and even if it did would be a farce? Even if Pippen magically moves up to #7 all-time so what (which no one argues) MJ is still MJ. Shaq still>Pippen. MJ still>Kobe.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Samurai Swoosh]How could you see taking Shaq over Jordan?

According to ShaqAttack's rules ... they didn't DO anything.

In 1995, got BOUNCED in the FINALS, in a [B]SWEEP[/B].

In 1996, got BOUNCED in the ECF, in a [B]SWEEP[/B] (via past his prime Jordan)

In 1997, got BOUNCED by the Jazz in the Western Semis, 4 games to 1

In 1998 got BOUNCED in the WCF, by the Jazz, in a [B]SWEEP[/B]

Noticing a pattern here?

And it wasn't like each one of these teams was lacking in talent.

In 1999 got BOUNCED in the WCF, by the Spurs, in get this ... a [B]SWEEP[/B]

Once Kobe Bryant developed into a legit star caliber player ... the Lakers went onto win a ring in 2000

Then in 2001, when Kobe eclipsed star player status, and went to the "superstar" realm ... the Lakers became even more dominant.

So you could really see taking Shaq over Jordan? Prime Jordan doesn't go down in sweeps.[/QUOTE]

In 1995, Shaq averaged 28 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 6 apg and 2.5 bpg in the finals on 60% shooting. If Nick Anderson doesn't miss four straight free throws, they don't get sweeped, but I guess that's Shaq's fault. :oldlol: And where exactly did Jordan lead his team at 23 years old or his 3rd season?

1996. Shaq was swept by the team with the best record ever, no shame in that. He still played very well.

1997, same thing, O'Neal played well, but his supporting cast forgot to show up.

1998, O'Neal was a beast in the playoffs, averaging 31/10 on 61% shooting, now look up his teammates numbers.

1999, you have a legit point, but there is the disctraction of the 3 head coaches, the shortened season and the Rodman distraction.

In 2000, Shaq led them to a 12-3 record without Kobe and Kobe averaged 15/4/4 on 36% shooting in the finals and missed 2 games while Shaq averaged 38/17/3/2 on 61% shooting.

In 2001, Shaq also led the Lakers to a great record without Kobe(11-3).

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Your agenda? Propping up Jordan, diminishing Pippen. Does that mean that is all you post about? No, but not all of my posts are about Jordan either. How many Jordan threads have I ever posted? Most of the MJ threads I have made actually were pro-MJ (from when I first joined ISH)...[/QUOTE]

I'm not propping up Jordan or diminishing Pippen. I'm just having discussions with people. I'm not actually starting these threads or trying to find little things to argue with. I'm also not making outrageous claims about either Jordan or Pippen. I'm naturally going to have discussions about Jordan since I watched the guy religiously for over a decade and Pippen to a lesser extent.


[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
There is nothing wrong with it but there also is nothing wrong with the obvious response that will trigger. Jordan fans love saying it when it comes to everyone else but complain when the same thing is done with respect to Jordan.[/QUOTE]

I understand why that response comes out. But its not the same thing. Saying Kareem didn't win 6 rings as the man, and that he won 3-4 them as a 2nd option or worse is not meant to diminish him. Its the truth. It doesn't mean Kareem couldn't have won 6 rings as the man, it just means he did not. Saying Jordan didn't win without Pippen is irrelevant, cause unlike Kareem, he won all of his as the best player, so it shouldn't be brought up as a response. But now I'm just talking about pointless anyway, cause lets face it, there's no changing that from happening.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
? I haven't seen that since I have been here. How many Bird, Kareem, or Magic threads are there? If you read this forum you would think the NBA began in 1990. [/QUOTE]

Yes, cause like I said, Jordan gets that treatment way more then all of them.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
It isn't just you. I never see any of the "reasonable" MJ fans correct some blatant misconceptions even when they are in the thread responding to other things. They ignore them because, for whatever reason, MJ fans as a group think Pippen looking worse will somehow elevate Jordan. The last time I checked he is #1 on 90% of lists. He is high as he can go.
[/QUOTE]

I can't really speak for everyone else.


[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
Can you explain this Kobe/Pippen thing I keep hearing MJ fans talk about? I said the following in another thread:
[/QUOTE]

LOL I don't think its that serious. Kobe fans first started saying Jordan couldn't without Pippen in response to Kobe can't win without Shaq, and eventually started overrating Pippen to further there argument for Kobe>Jordan or at least that he's closer then most of us think. I don't think anyone has said its part of some grand plan. Its just a trend here.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
Jordan fans as a group here underrate him. He is almost always 25th, give or take a few spots, on lists. They will say he is top 35, top 40, one guy says he is not top 50, another somehow claims that Pippen is top 25 yet peak Pippen would not even be top 5 today. There are just guys who have stated their rankings. Then there are others. I don't want to name names because it isn't personal but I didn't make these people up (if you think I made them up shoot me a PM). Three of them are in most Pippen threads and one used to be but doesn't post much anymore. Da_Realist and you rate him highly, although you are a strange case since you only talk about him in a negative manner. You are like OldSchoolBBall in that sense, although I get the vibe that OSB genuinely dislikes Pip and you don't. At best you will say "He was a great player but he was overrated for the following ten reasons". :oldlol:
[/QUOTE]

I don't hate Pippen and I don't purposefully try to talk about him in a negative manner. I've always been a fan. It annoyed me back in the day when everyone underrated him, then eventually he started getting his due, but then he eventually got overrated, which is also annoying. As one of my favorite players ever, I don't think its right to make him out to be more then he was. We should just appreciate him for what he was. I'm also an AI fan, and the same thing can be said about him.


Part of the negative manner towards him comes because in most of the discussions about him, he's brought up in a direct or indirect comparison to someone like Jordan, Bird, Shaq, Lebron, Kobe, etc. So when that comes up, I'm obviously going to talk down about him cause people are overrating him when they compare to those guys. And when I say indirectly, an example would be the "Jordan couldn't win without Pippen" response to "Kobe couldn't win without Shaq" which implies that Pippen was somewhat close to Shaq.

[QUOTE]I'm not propping up Jordan or diminishing Pippen. I'm just having discussions with people. I'm not actually starting these threads[/QUOTE]

How many anti-Jordan threads have I ever started? MJ fans act as if I am here every day with a new screed on Jordan. My computer's windows crashed in July so I lost my bookmarks but here is a list of topics I have started since then:

[B]By title[/B]


Jordan went to NC Boys State? (giving props to MJ for showing intelligence and leadership abilities even in 11th grade)
Perception is reality? Lebron vs. Dirk in the playoffs
Charles Barkley's cheapshot against Pippen tonight
The NBA's backup plan: Joe Johnson
Was Wilt as selfish as Bill Simmons alleges?
Rank the following PF's: Amare, Bosh, Boozer, and Gasol
Rose rated 26th in the league
What do you expect from the Suns' next few games?
How should a MVP be determined?
Is Kareem the GOAT?
How do you distinguish between "1a/1b" and "1/2"?
Touched by NC girl's death, Shaq pays for funeral
92' finals: Game 6, Bulls come back from down 15 in the fourth quarter
Favorite Iverson moment
Two Phoenix Suns game threads
Ewing and the NJ coaching vacancy
Ewing and his historical ranking
What if the Bulls traded Jordan in 1988?
Shaq is top 5 all-time
Is Noah the third best center in the East?
Pippen on Christmas during the 1994-95 season (my favorite game ever)
Myth: Derrick Rose is in a sophomore slump
F1 GOAT Schumacher close to a comeback!!!
Amare: 21/11 over the past nine games
Pau Gasol vs. Dirk Nowitzki
ISH age breakdown survey
How many of you saw “old legends”
SNL
Pippen jersey to be retired at UCA
Scott Skiles being hospitalized (which I heard while listening to a Bulls game yet I am called a closet Lakers fan by several MJ fans?)
Bosh to Bulls rumor (for Hinrich and Thomas)

[B]By topic[/B]

Pippen 5 (counting the 92' finals link, even though I gave props to MJ in that thread too. I also counted the 88' MJ trade hypothetical as a Pippen thread and a Jordan thread)
Shaq 2
Ewing 2
Phoenix Suns game threads 2
Jordan 2
Rose 2
Noah 1
Phoenix Suns 1
Lebron vs. Dirk 1
Amare 1
Comparing 4 PF's 1
Joe Johnson 1
Kareem 1
Iverson 1
Wilt 1
MVP criteria 1
Michael Schumacher 1
Age survey 1
SNL 1
Scott Skiles 1
Bosh trade rumor 1

Part of the problem is I usually don't come across MJ fans in a typical thread I am in, whether I created it or not. I have seen you in Bulls threads but I can only remember talking to you once about something not related to Jordan or Pippen and that was Boozer.

[QUOTE]I understand why that response comes out. But its not the same thing. Saying Kareem didn't win 6 rings as the man, and that he won 3-4 them as a 2nd option or worse is not meant to diminish him. Its the truth. It doesn't mean Kareem couldn't have won 6 rings as the man, it just means he did not.[/QUOTE]

It raises the team strength issue. That is where Pippen becomes relevant. Kareem played with 0 all-stars from ages 26-31. Jordan had Pippen during that period. By the time Kareem got his dominant team he was 32 and too old to win a zillion rings as the clear cut "man" on his team. If you switched the two would Jordan have more "rings as the man"? Perhaps but he would not have 6 like he did and Kareem would have more than 2 as the clear cut "man". When the entire case made by MJ fans in that thread revolved around "rings as the man" that is naturally going to shine a light on the team issue.

[QUOTE]Kobe fans first started saying Jordan couldn't without Pippen in response to Kobe can't win without Shaq, and eventually started overrating Pippen to further there argument for Kobe>Jordan or at least that he's closer then most of us think. I don't think anyone has said its part of some grand plan. Its just a trend here.[/QUOTE]

Where? It would be nice to have help from all these allegedly pro-Pippen Kobe fans whenever Pippen comes up and I have to go up against a dozen Jordan fans, with 90% of them saying Pippen sucks even though half of them did not even see Pippen play ( example: anyone who says Pippen did nothing in the 98' finals obviously did not watch basketball in 1998). Where are they? It is basically always me, 97 bulls, kshutts, and hitmary if he happens to be online. (side note: I don't know about hitmary but 97, kshutts, and I are still Bulls fans. Most Jordan fans here seem to have jumped off the bandwagon in 1998 yet these clowns call me a closet Lakers fan? :roll: ) Where are the Kobe fans? You should know this because you are in a lot of these threads. I don't see the fleet of Kobe fans defending Pippen like they do with, say, Bynum (or at least used to until a few weeks ago :oldlol: ).

I don't buy this "Kobe>Jordan" claim Jordan fans hide behind to bash Pippen. Who? Can you name three legit posters here who think that? Gimmicks and trolls don't count.

[QUOTE]I don't hate Pippen and I don't purposefully try to talk about him in a negative manner. I've always been a fan. It annoyed me back in the day when everyone underrated him, then eventually he started getting his due, but then he eventually got overrated, which is also annoying. As one of my favorite players ever, I don't think its right to make him out to be more then he was. We should just appreciate him for what he was. I'm also an AI fan, and the same thing can be said about him.[/QUOTE]

The thing is I never see you correct the people underrating him and you see far more of that in Pippen/Jordan threads than overrating him. A guy two posts above you could say something like "Peak Pippen would not be a top 5 player today" and you will let that slide but if someone says something in the other direction like comparing Pippen to Lebron you will be all over that person.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]

The thing is I never see you correct the people underrating him and you see far more of that in Pippen/Jordan threads than overrating him. A guy two posts above you could say something like "Peak Pippen would not be a top 5 player today" and you will let that slide but if someone says something in the other direction like comparing Pippen to Lebron you will be all over that person.[/QUOTE]

I'm not going to bother responding to the rest, cause we're really going off topic and I don't want to spend my time talking about something that really has nothing to do with basketball, which is what I come here for. To the above though, like I said, I don't respond to everyone, such as people that underrate Pippen who are mostly all trolls and gimmicks like you mentioned. I only respond to some posters on here such as yourself. For whatever reason, I like having discussions with you. And by the way, I don't think you're a closet Kobe fan, in case you think thats what I think.

eww at any jordan comparison, especially with players post 2000 (hand-check rule). Especially since one is a guard and one is a center. Shooting 57% for the season is maybe semi above par/mediocre for a player who is only taking shots inside the paint. Shooting 54% for the season as a guard, however, is a tremendous feat. Plus Shaq needed top5 shooting guards to win all of his titles in Kobe and Wade. Jordan had Pippen who isn't even a top5 SF.

Obvious teeny troll owned.

Also, Shaq got b[I]i[/I]tched out of LA by Kobe and the upper management. you think Pippen could have done that to Jordan? Jordan was above the owner in chicago.

this is why shaq will never have a statue outside staples but kobe will. Plus his need for attention is borderline sociopathic narcissistic/disgusting. rofl he can't even average 10/7 now being that disgusting a human being and that fat and huge rofl.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]:oldlol: do you think an opinion person like me lurked for over a year before joining? I lurked for about 2 months.



Where? Who? Can you respond to:[/QUOTE]
i am sorry this forum doesn't have a seach system and i don't bookmark posts like you do.

[QUOTE=triangleoffense]
this is why shaq will never have a statue outside staples but [B]kobe[/B] will. [B]Plus his need for attention is borderline sociopathic narcissistic/disgusting.[/B] rofl he can't even average 10/7 now being that [B]disgusting a human being [/B]and that fat and huge rofl.[/QUOTE]

Nope, pretty sure you got him confused with his former teammate whom I've gone ahead and bolded his name for you. Pretty sure Shaq never raped a woman, that's definitely cause for being a "disgusting human being". Pretty sure Shaq never tried to completely emulate every single move and mannerisim of another player like Kobe did with MJ. Now THAT'S, borderline sociopathic disgusting. Even tried to talk/sound just like him. Really, really disturbing. Kobe's that kind of person who nobody really likes and is loner so they desperately cry out for attention, hence the rape. Most people love Shaq and think he is a funny guy. More people will miss Shaq and his humor when he retires than Kobe and his lack of charisma/fakeness.

[quote=Roundball_Rock]How many anti-Jordan threads have I ever started? MJ fans act as if I am here every day with a new screed on Jordan. My computer's windows crashed in July so I lost my bookmarks but here is a list of topics I have started since then:

[B]By title[/B]


Jordan went to NC Boys State? (giving props to MJ for showing intelligence and leadership abilities even in 11th grade)
Perception is reality? Lebron vs. Dirk in the playoffs
Charles Barkley's cheapshot against Pippen tonight
The NBA's backup plan: Joe Johnson
Was Wilt as selfish as Bill Simmons alleges?
Rank the following PF's: Amare, Bosh, Boozer, and Gasol
Rose rated 26th in the league
What do you expect from the Suns' next few games?
How should a MVP be determined?
Is Kareem the GOAT?
How do you distinguish between "1a/1b" and "1/2"?
Touched by NC girl's death, Shaq pays for funeral
92' finals: Game 6, Bulls come back from down 15 in the fourth quarter
Favorite Iverson moment
Two Phoenix Suns game threads
Ewing and the NJ coaching vacancy
Ewing and his historical ranking
What if the Bulls traded Jordan in 1988?
Shaq is top 5 all-time
Is Noah the third best center in the East?
Pippen on Christmas during the 1994-95 season (my favorite game ever)
Myth: Derrick Rose is in a sophomore slump
F1 GOAT Schumacher close to a comeback!!!
Amare: 21/11 over the past nine games
Pau Gasol vs. Dirk Nowitzki
ISH age breakdown survey
How many of you saw

I understand but I think you get what I am saying about the team issue being raised when people argue MJ>KAJ based on "rings as the man."

Well, I like posting with you too or else I would not put in the time to make lengthy responses to you. I often disagree with you but your posts are always well-argued.

[QUOTE]To the above though, like I said, I don't respond to everyone, such as people that underrate Pippen who are mostly all trolls and gimmicks like you mentioned.[/QUOTE]

I don't think they are. The person who said peak Pippen would not be top 5 today was juju, for instance. He is not a troll. The person who made the comment about Pippen and in the 98' finals is EricForman. He may have some troll tendencies but he isn't a troll per se. NBAStatman has Pippen top 40 all-time. Allhazred top 35. These guys clearly are not trolls. They just underrate him. Then there are all the nameless MJ fans who can't fathom that Pippen was considered a top 5 player for several years. In other words, he was basically what Brandon Roy is today: a clear cut top 10 player but someone with no case for top 5. So when I see you doing things like going after someone for comparing Pippen (and Hill) to Lebron and then saying nothing about these people it appears as if you have an agenda. I believe you. I don't see the point in you lying about this but I think you can see the impression your posting would give to someone who sees you talk about Pippen a lot.

I will say that I do notice a difference between people like you and DR and how you view Pippen compared to some of the younger MJ fans. I actually bookmarked your "year by year" ranking of Pippen in his prime and I made my own when a MJ fan asked me about that in a PM and I wasn't that far off from you. I had Pippen 2nd in 94' instead of 3rd and had him 3rd in 96' instead of 5th like you do, for example. (I was never sold on D Rob)

[QUOTE]And by the way, I don't think you're a closet Kobe fan, in case you think thats what I think.[/QUOTE]

Neither does DR and neither did brubeblitz so I am not surprised. You guys saw him play at the time and know how good he was, how popular he was ( :roll: @ people thinking it is unfathomable that Pippen has fans when in reality he was one of the most popular players of the 90's) etc. and perhaps most importantly how he was viewed by people at the time so when I say something like "Pippen was a top 3 player in season X" you guys may not agree with it but you can see where I am coming from because you know how highly he was rated in his prime, especially from 1994-1997. Probably half of MJ fans here, though, never saw him play live or maybe caught some of 97' and 98' (when he played only half the year) and to them my comments seem so outrageous that they would have to be the result of an ulterior motive. These are the ones who tend to think I am a closet Kobe fan. The funny thing is I have always said Lebron>Kobe and even have said Wade>Kobe last year and I criticize him whenever Kobe and Pippen are compared (when people say young Kobe>prime Pippen) yet several MJ fans still think I am a Kobe fan. I like him but if I qualify as a fan of him that means I am a "fan" of a dozen other players. The only players today I a legit fan of are Amare and Rose.

[QUOTE]Plus just because you don't make anti-jordan threads doesn't mean you don't post that stuff in other threads.[/QUOTE]

Yes, and I admit that. What I am saying is this myth that all I do on ISH is bash Jordan is garbage.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]I understand but I think you get what I am saying about the team issue being raised when people argue MJ>KAJ based on "rings as the man."

Well, I like posting with you too or else I would not put in the time to make lengthy responses to you. I often disagree with you but your posts are always well-argued.



I don't think they are. The person who said peak Pippen would not be top 5 today was juju, for instance. He is not a troll. The person who made the comment about Pippen and in the 98' finals is EricForman. He may have some troll tendencies but he isn't a troll per se. NBAStatman has Pippen top 40 all-time. Allhazred top 35. These guys clearly are not trolls. They just underrate him. Then there are all the nameless MJ fans who can't fathom that Pippen was considered a top 5 player for several years. In other words, he was basically what Brandon Roy is today: a clear cut top 10 player but someone with no case for top 5. So when I see you going after someone for comparing Pippen (and Hill) to Lebron and then saying nothing about these people it appears as if you have an agenda. I believe you. I don't see the point in you lying about this but I think you can see the impression your posting would give to someone who sees you talk about Pippen a lot.

I will say that I do notice a difference between people like you and DR and how you view Pippen compared to some of the younger MJ fans. I actually bookmarked your "year by year" ranking of Pippen in his prime and I made my own when a MJ fan asked me about that in a PM and I wasn't that far off from you. I had Pippen 2nd in 94' instead of 3rd and had him 3rd in 96' instead of 5th like you do, for example. (I was never sold on D Rob)



Neither does DR and neither did brubeblitz so I am not surprised. You guys saw him play at the time and know how good he was, how popular he was ( :roll: @ people thinking it is unfathomable that Pippen has fans when in reality he was one of the most popular players of the 90's) etc. and perhaps most importantly how he was viewed by people at the time so when I say something like "Pippen was a top 3 player in season X" you guys may not agree with it but you can see where I am coming from because you know how highly he was rated in his prime, especially from 1994-1997. Probably half of MJ fans here, though, never saw him play live or maybe caught some of 97' and 98' (when he played only half the year) and to them my comments seem so outrageous that they would have to be the result of an ulterior motive. These are the ones who tend to think I am a closet Kobe fan. The funny thing is I have always said Lebron>Kobe and even have said Wade>Kobe last year and I criticize him whenever Kobe and Pippen are compared (when people say young Kobe>peak Pippen) yet several MJ fans still think I am a Kobe fan. I like him but if I qualify as a fan of him that means I am a fan of 15 other players. The only players today I a legit fan of are Amare and Rose.



Yes, and I admit that. What I am saying is this myth that all I do on ISH is bash Jordan is garbage.[/QUOTE]
LOL How do i underrate him?? I have him at 25. Your the one putting him at 18 not me.

You say Pippen would be top 5 today??
Who is Pippen better then???
He is not better then the Kobe,LJ, and Wade. So lets get that out of there.

He isn't better then Tim duncan

He isn't better then CP3.

Prove to me he better then those.Also answer this question. Where do you rank LJ all0time.

[QUOTE=triangleoffense]Shooting 57% for the season is maybe semi above par/mediocre for a player who is only taking shots inside the paint. Shooting 54% for the season as a guard, however, is a tremendous feat.[/quote]

I think Jordan was better during his prime, but you downplaying a bigs dominance because he scorers "closer to the basket" says a lot about your intelligence when it pertains to basketball. Apparently you don't value effectiveness. Putting the ball in the hoop is, well, putting the ball in the hoop. If scoring inside 5-10 feet in ("dunking mostly") was so easy, you'd see near all 7 footers scoring in double figures. I won't even get into the rest of your post, talk about a train wreck.

[QUOTE]You say Pippen would be top 5 today??
Who is Pippen better then???[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]He isn't better then Tim duncan

He isn't better then CP3.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. This is a matter of opinion. My point was that there is a larger gap between where MJ fans rate Pippen and the typical ranking of him than there is between me Jordan's ranking.

Duncan is past his prime, although still very good. Many, if not most, people think Kevin Durant>Paul this year yet Pippen would not be better? As to Wade, what he is doing now with scrubs is comparable to what Pippen did with scrubs for 80% of 95' so how is it a stretch to say he was at a similar level?

It is hard to project players into different years. What is clear is that when he played he was considered a top 5 player for several seasons and some people had him as high as second and third. Could the argument be made that there more great players today then in the mid-90's and hence he could have been top 5 then in his prime but not today? Judge yourself:

Top players in the mid-90's (1994-1996 to be specific): Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Pippen, Malone, Hill, Robinson, Payton, Ewing, Barkley, Richmond, Mourning, Penny, T. Hardaway (no order)
Top players in 2010: Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Dirk, Carmelo, Durant, Paul, Deron, Roy, Bosh, Howard, Duncan (no order)

I don't think there are more great players today than there were back then. If anything there were more back then. Today we have only one GOAT candidate caliber player in/near his prime playing (Lebron, not Kobe, for the MJ fans reading this who are wondering :oldlol: ), another top 10 all-time player in/near his prime, top 10 all-time Duncan past his prime and none of the other guys on the list right now look to be top 20-25 all-time players other than maybe Paul. It is too soon to project how good prime Durant will be. I can't see Roy, Deron, Carmelo, Dirk, or Bosh reaching the top 25 all-time. The mid-90's featured two GOAT candidate caliber players (Jordan and Shaq), another top 10 all-time player at his peak (Hakeem), and a few top 20-25 all-time players in/near their primes (Malone, Pippen, Barkley, Robinson).

[QUOTE]Where do you rank LJ all0time.[/QUOTE]

I haven't given it much thought because he is going to move up every year for the next few years. He isn't like Kobe or Duncan where most of their careers are over and you can get a good idea of where they fall. I think Lebron has a very good chanc at winding up top 5 all-time and maybe even the GOAT. He actually has a decent chance of becoming the "majority GOAT" because of merit but also because the same forces that elevated Jordan so far past Kareem, Wilt, Russell, et al. will work to do the same with Lebron vis-a-vis Jordan. It will be fun to watch how MJ fans react if that happens. :D

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]I disagree. This is a matter of opinion. My point was that there is a larger gap between where MJ fans rate Pippen and the typical ranking of him than there is between me Jordan's ranking.

Duncan is past his prime, although still very good. Many, if not most, people think Kevin Durant>Paul this year yet Pippen would not be better? As to Wade, what he is doing now with scrubs is comparable to what Pippen did with scrubs for 80% of 95' so how is it a stretch to say he was at a similar level?

It is hard to project players into different years. What is clear is that when he played he was considered a top 5 player for several seasons and some people had him as high as second and third. Could the argument be made that there more great players today then in the mid-90's and hence he could have been top 5 then in his prime but not today? Judge yourself:

Top players in the mid-90's (1994-1996 to be specific): Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Pippen, Malone, Hill, Robinson, Payton, Ewing, Barkley, Richmond, Mourning, Penny, T. Hardaway (no order)
Top players in 2010: Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Dirk, Carmelo, Durant, Paul, Deron, Roy, Bosh, Howard, Duncan (no order)

I don't think there are more great players today than there were back then. If anything there were more back then. Today we have only one GOAT candidate caliber player in/near his prime playing (Lebron, not Kobe, for the MJ fans reading this who are wondering :oldlol: ), another top 10 all-time player in/near his prime, top 10 all-time Duncan past his prime and none of the other guys on the list right now look to be top 20-25 all-time players other than maybe Paul. It is too soon to project how good prime Durant will be. I can't see Roy, Deron, Carmelo, Dirk, or Bosh reaching the top 25 all-time. The mid-90's featured two GOAT candidate caliber players (Jordan and Shaq), another top 10 all-time player at his peak (Hakeem), and a few top 20-25 all-time players in/near their primes (Malone, Pippen, Barkley, Robinson).



I haven't given it much thought because he is going to move up every year for the next few years. He isn't like Kobe or Duncan where most of their careers are over and you can get a good idea of where they fall. I think Lebron has a very good chanc at winding up top 5 all-time and maybe even the GOAT. He actually has a decent chance of becoming the "majority GOAT" because of merit but also because the same forces that elevated Jordan so far past Kareem, Wilt, Russell, et al. will work to do the same with Lebron vis-a-vis Jordan. It will be fun to watch how MJ fans react if that happens. :D[/QUOTE]
LOL A matter of opinion? LOL so you admit kevin durant is better this seson then Pippen then?

LOL Wade is better then Pippen. Where are you coming from with this crap and WHen Wade retires he will be ahead of pippen. They are not at any similar level. Wade is making a case for 3rd best SG. Wade is better then Pippen.(Fact)

You still didn't tell me how Pippen is better then Cp3. I am still waiting.

[QUOTE]so you admit kevin durant is better this seson then Pippen then? [/QUOTE]

:roll: Durant is a better scorer than Pippen ever was but that is it. Pippen crushes him when you look at them overall.

Scoring: Durant>Pippen
Playmaking: Pippen>>>Durant
Rebounding: Pippen>Durant
Defense: Pippen>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Durant

[QUOTE]. Where are you coming from with this crap and WHen Wade retires he will be ahead of pippen. [/QUOTE]

Ahead? Maybe but if he is it won't be by much. To be well ahead of Pippen he would have to be in the top 15 all-time conversation and I don't think he is that good. Wade may wind up 20th and Pippen 24th. So what?

[QUOTE]Wade is making a case for 3rd best SG. [/QUOTE]

We shall see. Wade has a history of injuries and his game relies a lot on athleticism. We have to see if he has staying power. I don't see him as better than Jerry West or Kobe. He could be better than Drexler or Iverson, though.

[QUOTE]You still didn't tell me how Pippen is better then Cp3.[/QUOTE]

If Durant>CP3 this year then Pippen>CP3.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]:roll: Durant is a better scorer than Pippen ever was but that is it. Pippen crushes him when you look at them overall.

Scoring: Durant>Pippen
Playmaking: Pippen>>>Durant
Rebounding: Pippen>Durant
Defense: Pippen>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Durant



Ahead? Maybe but if he is it won't be by much. To be well ahead of Pippen he would have to be in the top 15 all-time conversation and I don't think he is that good. Wade may wind up 20th and Pippen 24th. So what?



We shall see. Wade has a history of injuries and his game relies a lot on athleticism. We have to see if he has staying power. I don't see him as better than Jerry West or Kobe. He could be better than Drexler or Iverson, though.



If Durant>CP3 this year then Pippen>CP3.[/QUOTE]
I will be back in a few.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]:roll: Durant is a better scorer than Pippen ever was but that is it. Pippen crushes him when you look at them overall.

Scoring: Durant>Pippen
Playmaking: Pippen>>>Durant
Rebounding: Pippen>Durant
Defense: Pippen>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Durant



Ahead? Maybe but if he is it won't be by much. To be well ahead of Pippen he would have to be in the top 15 all-time conversation and I don't think he is that good. Wade may wind up 20th and Pippen 24th. So what?



We shall see. Wade has a history of injuries and his game relies a lot on athleticism. We have to see if he has staying power. I don't see him as better than Jerry West or Kobe. He could be better than Drexler or Iverson, though.



If Durant>CP3 this year then Pippen>CP3.[/QUOTE]
Durant is avging 7 rebounds a game and rising. Where are you getting this >>>>>>>>x10 from?? KD defense has improved and in the top 10 in defensive win shares.
Also ou failed to mention how KD is the way better scorer not just > better. He is also the way better FT shooter.

Juju, the following players are clearly better than Durant: Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Wade, and Carmelo. The following have a legit case over Durant: Duncan, Paul, Deron, Howard. Since Durant>prime Pippen does that mean prime Pippen would be the 10th or 11th best player today (I assume you will say Pippen>Deron but you probably would stand by the others)? Then there are players like Roy, Nash, and Bosh. Are they better than Pippen too?

Obviously I disagree with you but I am trying to get a clear read on where you stand. You said Pippen would be top 10 today in another thread but if Durant>Pippen that almost automatically means Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Wade, and Carmelo are better. Add Durant and that is six players right there that >Pippen according to you. That puts him 7th. You said the 2010 versions of Duncan and Paul>Pippen. That puts him 9th. Was he better than Howard, Deron, Roy, Nash, and Bosh? Hell, I know you love Gasol. Gasol>Pip?

Durant may wind up being a better rebounder but that is speculation. We are comparing prime Pippen to Durant. Prime Pippen was almost top 20 in the league in rebounding before Rodman joined the team and gobbled up such a high percentage of boards. Pippen did this as a SF. Durant is averaging 7 boards a game. That is run of the mill for a SF.

[QUOTE]KD defense has improved and in the top 10 in defensive win shares.[/QUOTE]

That goes to show you the win share stat is a joke. You are a Bulls fan, right? According to win shares Noah>>>Rose, Deng>>Rose, Salmons>Rose, and Taj Gibson=Rose.

You are comparing the defense of the GOAT defensive SF who is arguably also the GOAT perimeter defender with Durant's? :wtf:

[QUOTE]Also ou failed to mention how KD is the way better scorer not just > better.[/QUOTE]

True but we have to consider their roles. Pippen was always tasked with being his team's primary playmaker. He couldn't just focus on scoring. He had a pass first mentality and role. You can't compare their scoring at face value. Durant today is a 28 ppg guy. Pippen was never capable of that but I could see him scoring 24-25 ppg if his role was the same as Durant's. He scored 22 ppg without Jordan even when he was tasked as the team's playmaker (and defensive anchor. Durant has to expend little energy on defense). In 92' he scored 21 ppg alongside Jordan and did the same in 96' and 97' when healthy.

Yeah, Durant also is a much better shooter than Pippen ever was, both at FT's and FG's.

How about the rest, though? Durant is average at best at playmaking and defense. He is average at rebounding. All he does better than Pippen is score.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Juju, the following players are clearly better than Durant: Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Wade, and Carmelo. The following have a legit case over Durant: Duncan, Paul, Deron, Howard. Since Durant>prime Pippen does that mean prime Pippen would be the 10th or 11th best player today (I assume you will say Pippen>Deron but you probably would stand by the others)? Then there are players like Roy, Nash, and Bosh. Are they better than Pippen too?

Obviously I disagree with you but I am trying to get a clear read on where you stand. You said Pippen would be top 10 today in another thread but if Durant>Pippen that almost automatically means Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Wade, and Carmelo are better. Add Durant and that is six players right there that >Pippen according to you. That puts him 7th. You said the 2010 versions of Duncan and Paul>Pippen. That puts him 9th. Was he better than Howard, Deron, Roy, Nash, and Bosh? Hell, I know you love Gasol. Gasol>Pip?

Durant may wind up being a better rebounder but that is speculation. We are comparing prime Pippen to Durant. Prime Pippen was almost top 20 in the league in rebounding before Rodman joined the team and gobbled up such a high percentage of boards. Pippen did this as a SF. Durant is averaging 7 boards a game. That is run of the mill for a SF.



That goes to show you the win share stat is a joke. You are a Bulls fan, right? According to win shares Noah>>>Rose, Deng>>Rose, Salmons>Rose, and Taj Gibson=Rose.

You are comparing the defense of the GOAT defensive SF who is arguably also the GOAT perimeter defender with Durant's? :wtf:



True but we have to consider their roles. Pippen was always tasked with being his team's primary playmaker. He couldn't just focus on scoring. He had a pass first mentality and role. You can't compare their scoring at face value. Durant today is a 28 ppg guy. Pippen was never capable of that but I could see him scoring 24-25 ppg if his role was the same as Durant's. He scored 22 ppg without Jordan even when he was tasked as the team's playmaker (and defensive anchor. Durant has to expend little energy on defense). In 92' he scored 21 ppg alongside Jordan and did the same in 96' and 97' when healthy.

Yeah, Durant also is a much better shooter than Pippen ever was, both at FT's and FG's.

How about the rest, though? Durant is average at best at playmaking and defense. He is average at rebounding. All he does better than Pippen is score.[/QUOTE]
I agree for me posting win shares. I don't know wat came over me. LOL I have said how thrash that stat is in the past. He has improved his defense through. LOL Carmelo isn't better then KD this season are you kidding me?

Carmelo isn't better then Durant this season. The only players i said who was better are the ones i listed from above. I forgot to add KD in my first post. So Prime Pip would be top 7 today. How is 7.2 avg for a SF??? His rebounding has been increasing since his rookie season. His avg has been going up every month in rebounding. Pip in his prime was a 7-8 rebound guy. Lets see where KD rebounding at the end of the season. Rememeber every season he has gotten stronger with weight lifting.

7th. Wow. I disagree with that but all this is opinion and involves speculation since it is hard to compare retired players to today's players.

Pippen was at 9 rpg in 94' and was around the same in 95' until Jordan came back. He was at only 7 rpg during the second threepeat but that was because Rodman took away such a high percentage of rebounds. Durant with Rodman would be at about 5-5.5 boards.

Durant may wind up being better but right now I can't see him being better than prime Pippen or even Carmelo. It isn't just me. There was a KD vs. Carmelo thread a few days ago and most people were saying Carmelo>Durant today but that in a few years Durant will surpass Carmelo. I agree on both counts.

[QUOTE=juju151111]Durant is avging 7 rebounds a game and rising. Where are you getting this >>>>>>>>x10 from?? KD defense has improved and in the top 10 in defensive win shares.
Also ou failed to mention how KD is the way better scorer not just > better. He is also the way better FT shooter.[/QUOTE]

Are you seriously trying to make this argument bro?

Your a cool dude, but please stop with this...

We both know Pippen is a better Rebounder than Durant...We know he's a better playmaker, and we know he's by far a better defender...

We all know Durant is the greater scorer...If you just base the whole game of Basketball on just scoring...Then Durant is better I suppose.

[QUOTE=branslowski]Are you seriously trying to make this argument bro?

Your a cool dude, but please stop with this...

We both know Pippen is a better Rebounder than Durant...We know he's a better playmaker, and we know he's by far a better defender...

We all know Durant is the greater scorer...If you just base the whole game of Basketball on just scoring...Then Durant is better I suppose.[/QUOTE]
We are talking about this season. KD is avging 7.2 and has been growing since the season started. When did i say he was the better playmaker???

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]7th. Wow. I disagree with that but all this is opinion and involves speculation since it is hard to compare retired players to today's players.

Pippen was at 9 rpg in 94' and was around the same in 95' until Jordan came back. He was at only 7 rpg during the second threepeat but that was because Rodman took away such a high percentage of rebounds. Durant with Rodman would be at about 5-5.5 boards.

Durant may wind up being better but right now I can't see him being better than prime Pippen or even Carmelo. It isn't just me. There was a KD vs. Carmelo thread a few days ago and most people were saying Carmelo>Durant today but that in a few years Durant will surpass Carmelo. I agree on both counts.[/QUOTE]
We will see where KD rebounding is at the end of the year since your comparing for this year. He has been getting more and more every month. I see him at 7.5+ at the end of the season.

KD isn't in Pippen's league as a rebounder. Pippen was the best rebounding SF in his prime. Before MJ came back he was top 20 in the league in rebounding in 95' and obviously #1 among SF's.

I didn't realize KD improved his rebounding as much as he has. He is good but not at the same level as prime Pippen. Here is KD's rebounding compared to top SF's:

Lebron 7.2
Durant 7.2
Carmelo 6.3
Pierce 4.9
Butler 6.8
Granger 5.7
Artest 5.0
Turkulo 4.5
Gay 6.1

How about 94' Pippen compared to top SF's?

Pippen 8.7
Rice 5.4
Mashburn 4.5
Schrempf 5.6
Mullin 5.6
Wilkins 6.5

Pippen was head and shoulders above the other top SF's in rebounding in 94'. You might say 8.7 is not much more than 7.2 but you have to compare them with their peers in their era. If 8.7 rpg was so easy for a SF how come the other top SF's could not come close to it in 94'? Also keep in mind Pippen was playing with Horace Grant, who was pulling down 11.0 boards a game. The best rebounding teammate Durant has is at 6.1.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]KD isn't in Pippen's league as a rebounder. Pippen was the best rebounding SF in his prime. Before MJ came back he was top 20 in the league in rebounding in 95' and obviously #1 among SF's.

I didn't realize KD improved his rebounding as much as he has. He is good but not at the same level as prime Pippen. Here is KD's rebounding compared to top SF's:

Lebron 7.2
Durant 7.2
Carmelo 6.3
Pierce 4.9
Butler 6.8
Granger 5.7
Artest 5.0
Turkulo 4.5
Gay 6.1

How about 94' Pippen compared to top SF's?

Pippen 8.7
Rice 5.4
Mashburn 4.5
Schrempf 5.6
Mullin 5.6
Wilkins 6.5

Pippen was head and shoulders above the other top SF's in rebounding in 94'. You might say 8.7 is not much more than 7.2 but you have to compare them with their peers in their era. If 8.7 rpg was so easy for a SF how come the other top SF's could not come close to it in 94'? Also keep in mind Pippen was playing with Horace Grant, who was pulling down 11.0 boards a game. The best rebounding teammate Durant has is at 6.1.[/QUOTE]
Carmelo and LJ are really the only close ones and they are superstars. Yep and on his twitter page he tells you when he working out lol. He gotten stronger, but he just still looks the same way. Lets wait until the season end to see his complete season. He will make it to 7.5 or+ book it.

[QUOTE]Carmelo and LJ are really the only close ones [/QUOTE]

[U]No one [/U]was close to peak Pippen among top SF's in 1994 or 1995 (in 96' Hill developed and was better)! :bowdown:

Durant is solid but Pippen was great for his position. He even outrebounded Grant in the playoffs in 94' and I believe in two of the first threepeat years. I know for sure he did it in one of the threepeat years in the playoffs. Pip's rebounding would consistently increase in the playoffs too. Regular season listed first, playoff average second:

1989: 6.1 [B]7.6[/B]
1990: 6.7 [B]7.2[/B]
1991: 7.3 [B]8.9[/B]
1992: 7.7 [B]8.8[/B]
1993: [B]7.7[/B] 6.9
1994: [B]8.7 [/B]8.3
1995: 8.1 [B]8.6[/B]
1996: 6.4 [B]8.5[/B]
1997: 6.5 [B]6.8*[/B]
1998: 5.2 [B]7.1[/B]

We don't know if Durant can do this because we haven't seen him in the playoffs yet.

*including Game 5 of the ECF where he got hurt and played only 5 or 6 minutes. If you exclude that he would be at something like 7.1 or 7.2.

Durant may wind up better than Pippen but I believe prime Pip>2010 Durant. However, beating Pip means Durant would have to end up being one of the 20-25 greatest players ever. He is off to a good start, though.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock][U]No one [/U]was close to peak Pippen among top SF's in 1994 or 1995 (in 96' Hill developed and was better)! :bowdown:

Durant is solid but Pippen was great for his position. He even outrebounded Grant in the playoffs in 94' and I believe in two of the first threepeat years. I know for sure he did it in one of the threepeat years in the playoffs. Pip's rebounding would consistently increase in the playoffs too. Regular season listed first, playoff average second:

1989: 6.1 [B]7.6[/B]
1990: 6.7 [B]7.2[/B]
1991: 7.3 [B]8.9[/B]
1992: 7.7 [B]8.8[/B]
1993: [B]7.7[/B] 6.9
1994: [B]8.7 [/B]8.3
1995: 8.1 [B]8.6[/B]
1996: 6.4 [B]8.5[/B]
1997: 6.5 [B]6.8*[/B]
1998: 5.2 [B]7.1[/B]

We don't know if Durant can do this because we haven't seen him in the playoffs yet.

*including Game 5 of the ECF where he got hurt and played only 5 or 6 minutes. If you exclude that he would be at something like 7.1 or 7.2.

Durant may wind up better than Pippen but I believe prime Pip>2010 Durant. However, beating Pip means Durant would have to end up being one of the 20-25 greatest players ever. He is off to a good start, though.[/QUOTE]
I agree about the playoffs, but what KD ends up with a better season then pip ever did and gets injured following season?? Most people have LJ ahead of pip and his career isn't even close to over yet.

I will have to wait until the playoffs for the final judgement on KD, but you still have to prove me about CP3.

[QUOTE]I agree about the playoffs, but what KD ends up with a better season then pip ever did and gets injured following season?? Most people have LJ ahead of pip and his career isn't even close to over yet.[/QUOTE]

Then Pip>Durant forever. Longevity matters or Grant Hill would be considered one of the greatest SF's of all-time. Lebron has played for 6 1/2 years and achieved a lot (MVP, has been the best player in the NBA for multiple seasons, led a team to the NBA finals, won 66 games with scrubs, etc.). Even with that people don't have him that far ahead of Pippen at this point, although Lebron will move up every year for the next few years as he adds to his accomplishments. I think most people would say prime Pippen>2010 Durant. For example, 09' Wade>any version of Pippen but Pippen is well ahead of Wade on all-time lists because Wade does not have the level of achievements needed to get to the top 30. Wade too will move up if he stays healthy, though.