What is Kobe's legacy if he beats Miami's big 3 in the finals?

[QUOTE=NBASTATMAN]Kobe has been great in the playoffs besides the Finals in the past three seasons.. I think the rougher play in the east slows down Kobe's game but he has usually played smart once the playoffs begin...


Kobe, in my opinion has hurt his teams' REGULAR SEASON record with his play in the regular season.. I think him wanting to win the MVP too much hurt their record last year.....Gasol showed he was a great player when Kobe went out...[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes: Yea, it wasn't Gasol missing 15 games, or Bynum being gone for half of each season, or Kobe playing with a broken finger or a rolled ankle or anything else like that that stopped the Lakers in the regular season. Nope it was Kobe gunning for MVP that did them in to the tune of three straight #1 seeds. Yup damn that Kobe.

Kobe's legacy if he beats Miami will be exactly the same as if he beat any other Finalist this year. He still has the more talented team top to bottom, along with the most dominant frontcourt. Miami simply cannot match up with LA's size and length, and that's why you can be sure that LA will be the odds-on favorite to win the title this year regardless of the Lebron/Wade/Bosh triumvirate. Go check what Vegas says and let me know who the favorite is.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Go check what Vegas says and let me know who the favorite is.[/QUOTE]
Miami is at 7/5 (ridiculous!!). Lakers at 7/2. Miami is the huge favorite on every single betting line. You should bet some serious $ n LA if you're so sure. Even if they don't win, you get to watch Kobe lose, which I'm sure you'd find enjoyable :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Kobe's legacy if he beats Miami will be exactly the same as if he beat any other Finalist this year. He still has the more talented team top to bottom, along with the most dominant frontcourt. Miami simply cannot match up with LA's size and length, and that's why you can be sure that LA will be the odds-on favorite to win the title this year regardless of the Lebron/Wade/Bosh triumvirate. Go check what Vegas says and let me know who the favorite is.[/QUOTE]
Bodog has the Heat at 7/4 with the Lakers at 11/4 :confusedshrug: . Pretty sure Vegas also has Miami as the favorite atm.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Kobe's legacy if he beats Miami will be exactly the same as if he beat any other Finalist this year. He still has the more talented team top to bottom, along with the most dominant frontcourt. Miami simply cannot match up with LA's size and length, and that's why you can be sure that LA will be the odds-on favorite to win the title this year regardless of the Lebron/Wade/Bosh triumvirate. Go check what Vegas says and let me know who the favorite is.[/QUOTE]

vegas says miami.

if kobe has 6, he's top 3 (mj and russell)

[QUOTE=stickfigure87]vegas says miami.

if kobe has 6, he's top 3 (mj and russell)[/QUOTE]
I'd slot him in at 4 behind MJ,Kareem, and Russell

We'll see what they a month or two into the season, then, It's all hype right now. Can't really set good odds on a product no one has seen play. If they're still the favorite by mid-December, I'll be shocked.

LOL so the Lakers are STILL the most talented team. Gotta love this guy, will never give credit. Its a personal vendetta for him, gotta appreciate his dedication to it <3

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]We'll see what they a month or two into the season, then, It's all hype right now. Can't really set good odds on a product no one has seen play. If they're still the favorite by mid-December, I'll be shocked.[/QUOTE]
Bet some money if you're so sure. Sounds like easy money judging by your analysis.

lol @ the Lakers being more talented than the Heat. lol @ using the phrase "top to bottom" after going on and on about how depth doesn't matter in the playoffs in response to posters questioning the Lakers bench. :roll:

[QUOTE=Andrei89]Pretend like you didn't know that

there are 2 options now

1: you pretended you didn't know that

2: you didn't know that which immediatly makes u a fake fanboy[/QUOTE]
:confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=imdaman99]LOL so the Lakers are STILL the most talented team. Gotta love this guy, will never give credit. Its a personal vendetta for him, gotta appreciate his dedication to it <3[/QUOTE]

Top to bottom, they're the most talented, yes. Top 3 Miami is the most talented, obviously. On top of that, size wins ballgames, and I refuse to believe that even a dominant perimeter tandem (and a soft big man like Bosh) can beat a dominant frontcourt like Odom/Bynum/Gasol (plus Ratliffe defensively now). We'll see I suppose.

[QUOTE=Jacks3]lol @ the Lakers being more talented than the Heat. lol @ using the phrase "top to bottom" after going on and on about how depth doesn't matter in the playoffs in response to posters questioning the Lakers bench. :roll:[/QUOTE]

By "top to bottom," I mean 1-6 or 1-7 tops, not 1-10. People like you were complaining about LA's #7-10 players, which is what I was speaking to when I made those remarks. And I stand by that. A team's top 6 or 7 (max) players being great is more important than their top 6 or 7 being less great but having a better 7-10.

I currently have him at #9. If he wins league MVP & beats Miami in the Finals he will leap to the #7 spot.

[QUOTE=Jacks3]:facepalm
Kobe's legacy is dependent on how good a basketball player he is, not how much he wins. If he has another brilliant post-season and a epic Finals he'll move up, but if he wins will playing average or mediocre it won't matter. He'll still be top 10-15 All-Time, which is absolutely amazing considering he's only 31.
But he'll never surpass...
Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Jordan[/QUOTE]

What the heck??? By far the most logical thing I've ever seen this kid post. Did someone hack his account???

Well, I was correct. The Lakers bench damn near lost games by themselves in the WCF and Finals. Miami is still more talented though.

[QUOTE=Jacks3]Well, I was correct. The Lakers bench damn near lost games by themselves in the WCF and Finals. Miami is still more talented though.[/QUOTE]

I didn't say you weren't correct, though I'd say Kobe is already top 10 and will probably be top 6 if he beats Miama while putting up good numbers.

But didn't you say in another thread that Jordan was no better than OJ Mayo?

Incidentally, I love how some posters are just dismissing Bird left and right in this thread.

[QUOTE=MaxFly]Incidentally, I love how some posters are just dismissing Bird left and right in this thread.[/QUOTE]

Bird's peak was short (2-3 season), and the rest of his career, while great, wasn't good enough for me to put him in my top 5. I'd put Jordan, Johnson, O'neal, Abdul-Jabbar, Olajuwon, Duncan, Bryant, Robinson above him, in that order.

I'd also probably consider 3-4 other players above him.

And that's just in the modern era. I'm not counting players like Wilt, Russell, etc..

[QUOTE=Vicp493]Bird's peak was short (2-3 season), and the rest of his career, while great, wasn't good enough for me to put him in my top 5. I'd put Jordan, Johnson, O'neal, Abdul-Jabbar, Olajuwon, Duncan, Bryant, Robinson above him, in that order.

I'd also probably consider 3-4 other players above him.

And that's just in the modern era. I'm not counting players like Wilt, Russell, etc..[/QUOTE]

So........... Olajuwan, Duncan, Robinson and Shaq over Bird on all time lists... Well, rveryone is entitled to their own opinions... but :facepalm

[QUOTE=NBASTATMAN]Kobe, in my opinion has hurt his teams' REGULAR SEASON record with his play in the regular season.. I think him wanting to win the MVP too much hurt their record last year.....Gasol showed he was a great player when Kobe went out...[/QUOTE]

This is interesting.... When did you determine he was trying to win the MVP award?

The same as it will be when his career ends. On the outside looking in on the top 5. I don't see any plausible way that Kobe squeezes into fifth or higher all time.

A ring this year, Kobe sniffs the top 7, and I have to believe Kobe is too much of a NBA historian to know that he has the chance to beat out MJ in terms of # of rings. Kobe has the teammates to win at least 2 more, especially if we are just seeing Gasol at his prime and with Bynum healthy, there is no reason not to believe Lakers are contending for the next 2-4 years.

I think beating or losing to Miami isn't going to make Kobe's legacy THAT much better or worse. I think Kobe can shut fans up if he has a real MVP type series, putting up great numbers, then there is absolutely no doubt Kobe is in his own class above Lebron and Wade.

But knowing Kobe, he knows his place in the NBA history, and it's about more than just beating Lebron and Wade. It's tying MJ and having the opportunity to have more rings than MJ. I think that's ultimately the motivation for the guy. In fact, I think Kobe has always believe he is better than Lebron and Wade so he probably doesn't even care too much who he sees in the Finals next year.

As long as Kobe doesn't take 30+ shots a game, the Lakers have a chance.

From LakersNation analyzing stats for 2008-2009 season:

[QUOTE]** In games when Kobe takes 30 or more shots, the Lakers are 3-5

** In games when Kobe takes 20 or less shots, the Lakers are 27-1

** Kobe is averaging 20 shots per game in the Lakers’ 48 victories

** Kobe is averaging 27.3 shots per game in their 12 losses.
[/QUOTE]

So, as long as he keeps his FGAs down to around 20. . .they should have a good chance. Lakers' bigs will be way too much for Chris Bosh, Father Time, and Snoop Dogg to deal with.

That is, if both those two teams both make it to the finals, which I sincerely doubt will happen. This year's not the Heat's year imo.


[QUOTE=okayabc123]there is no reason not to believe Lakers are contending for the next 2-4 years. [/QUOTE]

4 years from now their core's age would be like 36. 2 years, sure. 4? No.

[QUOTE=SinJackal]As long as Kobe doesn't take 30+ shots a game, the Lakers have a chance.

From LakersNation analyzing stats for 2008-2009 season:



So, as long as he keeps his FGAs down to around 20. . .they should have a good chance. Lakers' bigs will be way too much for Chris Bosh, Father Time, and Snoop Dogg to deal with.

That is, if both those two teams both make it to the finals, which I sincerely doubt will happen. This year's not the Heat's year imo.




4 years from now their core's age would be like 36. 2 years, sure. 4? No.[/QUOTE]


Bro...I really don't want an epic Kobe hate flame war debate...But as a Lakers fan and watching the games in the last 3yrs where Kobe takes a bunch of shots....I can tell you that those numbers a flawd..

Because...In MOST of the games where he hoist up tons of shots...It happens when his team is playing garbage...Thus he tries to go into that second half "shoot it untill I bring my team back" and it either gets them up, or puts them in an deeper hole...I mean dude can have 17fga going into the 4th..We would have the lead...Then our bench gives it away...Phil brings Kobe in, and Kobe has to try and get us back in it..Thus taking about 10-11 shots in the 4th...And in games where he doesn't shoot that many...It's because he, along with his teamates played great from the start and whind up blowing the other team out, thus Kobe sitting for the 4th.

Now, there's been a few games where he just came out Chucking in the 1st and we lost...Not gonna deny that...But mostly, Kobe comes out passing..And when he starts shooting crazy, it's mostly due to his teamates playing with no soul, and him having to try and bring us back in the 4th.

Every LAKERS fan who has watched every game knows this happens.

Just had to place some perspective to that stat.

[QUOTE=Vicp493][B]Bird's peak was short (2-3 season), and the rest of his career, while great, wasn't good enough for me to put him in my top 5. I'd put Jordan, Johnson, O'neal, Abdul-Jabbar, Olajuwon, Duncan, Bryant, Robinson above him, in that order.[/B]

I'd also probably consider 3-4 other players above him.

And that's just in the modern era. I'm not counting players like Wilt, Russell, etc..[/QUOTE]

Holy shit! You know nothing about baskeball! :oldlol:

So in Larry Bird's peak (considering he won 3 MVP's in a row) he was only super duper awesome in 2 or 3 of them apparently? :oldlol:
Bird was top 3 in MVP voting for 8 years in a row, and if you count his rookie season where he was 4th, he was top 4 for 9 years in MVP voting...
All NBA first team since his rookie season and for 9 consecutive seasons...

I mean, really... Did you expect anyone to believe what you were saying?

[QUOTE=branslowski]Bro...I really don't want an epic Kobe hate flame war debate...But as a Lakers fan and watching the games in the last 3yrs where Kobe takes a bunch of shots....I can tell you that those numbers a flawd..

Because...In MOST of the games where he hoist up tons of shots...It happens when his team is playing garbage...Thus he tries to go into that second half "shoot it untill I bring my team back" and it either gets them up, or puts them in an deeper hole...I mean dude can have 17fga going into the 4th..We would have the lead...Then our bench gives it away...Phil brings Kobe in, and Kobe has to try and get us back in it..Thus taking about 10-11 shots in the 4th...And in games where he doesn't shoot that many...It's because he, along with his teamates played great from the start and whind up blowing the other team out, thus Kobe sitting for the 4th.

Now, there's been a few games where he just came out Chucking in the 1st and we lost...Not gonna deny that...But mostly, Kobe comes out passing..And when he starts shooting crazy, it's mostly due to his teamates playing with no soul, and him having to try and bring us back in the 4th.

Every LAKERS fan who has watched every game knows this happens.

Just had to place some perspective to that stat.[/QUOTE]



110% correct. This is a fact.

[QUOTE=plowking]Holy shit! You know nothing about baskeball! :oldlol:

So in Larry Bird's peak (considering he won 3 MVP's in a row) he was only super duper awesome in 2 or 3 of them apparently? :oldlol:
Bird was top 3 in MVP voting for 8 years in a row, and if you count his rookie season where he was 4th, he was top 4 for 9 years in MVP voting...
All NBA first team since his rookie season and for 9 consecutive seasons...

I mean, really... [B]Did you expect anyone to believe what you were saying?[/B][/QUOTE]

He did...

My question is this, what if the Lakers beat the Heat this season, but then lose to them in 2012? What does that do to Kobe's legacy?

[QUOTE=Kurosawa0]My question is this, what if the Lakers beat the Heat this season, but then lose to them in 2012? What does that do to Kobe's legacy?[/QUOTE]

Really depends on how he plays individually.

[QUOTE=catch24]Really depends on how he plays individually.[/QUOTE]

True, but just hypothetically I think whichever teams wins the latest series tends to win the argument.

[QUOTE=plowking]Holy shit! You know nothing about baskeball! :oldlol:

So in Larry Bird's peak (considering he won 3 MVP's in a row) he was only super duper awesome in 2 or 3 of them apparently? :oldlol:
Bird was top 3 in MVP voting for 8 years in a row, and if you count his rookie season where he was 4th, he was top 4 for 9 years in MVP voting...
All NBA first team since his rookie season and for 9 consecutive seasons...

I mean, really... Did you expect anyone to believe what you were saying?[/QUOTE]

Ooooh, subjective awards and subjective honors. Impressive.

/not.

Everyone will forget about kobe.

Lakers front court will be remembered forever.

[QUOTE=Scott Baker]Intelligence has nothing to do with opinion.[/QUOTE]

intelligence is usually correlated with evaluating facts in a correct way. Evaluating facts in a correct way is usually related to having a more well-informed opinion.

[QUOTE=Kurosawa0]True, but just hypothetically I think whichever teams wins the latest series tends to win the argument.[/QUOTE]

What if the Heat fail to win it this year, then D-Wade suddenly gets injured the following year and Heat fails to make it to the finals?

If Kobe beats Miami he will just move up on the all time list. Beating Miami isn't going to suddenly push him to #3 or #2.

You guys have to remember that Miami and it's players haven't done jack in this league besides Wade. Some consider Lebron and Bosh losers.

Beating Miami would be the same as beating any other team in the Finals.

Kobe's legacy is pretty much set in the top 10 list as of now IMO.

He get's 6 rings I say he moves in top 5.
But really it depends how he also performs next year and how he wins in the Finals. If Kobe get's seven....and wins four in a row something not even Jordan as the main option did not do (probably would of if he didn't retire the first time) then Kobe might have a shot at being number 2.

First things first...win number 6.

[QUOTE=crisoner]Kobe's legacy is pretty much set in the top 10 list as of now IMO.

He get's 6 rings I say he moves in top 5.
But really it depends how he also performs next year and how he wins in the Finals. If Kobe get's seven....and wins four in a row something not even Jordan as the main option did not do [b](probably would of if he didn't retire the first time)[/b] then Kobe might have a shot at being number 2.

First things first...win number 6.[/QUOTE]

I'm hardly in disagreement with the general point of your post but I just wanted to address the bolded.

"Would of" isn't a logical argument in my view. Conversely, if Kobe had averaged 22.9 FGA per game as Jordan did over his career rather than the 19.2 he has, his ppg numbers would of been about equal. If Del Harris hadn't brought him off the bench his first two seasons, Kobe would of developed more quickly and posted better numbers. If Kobe had a perimeter player the caliber of Scottie Pippen and didn't have to facilitate the offense as he's done and got to play full time wing for the better part of his career, he would of won 10 scoring titles.

^ None of the above pass for acceptable to people in most cases, regardless of "would of" and "what if".

[QUOTE=crisoner]Kobe's legacy is pretty much set in the top 10 list as of now IMO.

He get's 6 rings I say he moves in top 5.
But really it depends how he also performs next year and how he wins in the Finals. If Kobe get's seven....and wins four in a row something not even Jordan as the main option did not do (probably would of if he didn't retire the first time) then Kobe might have a shot at being number 2.

First things first...win number 6.[/QUOTE]

win another first and congrats on 10k posts.

[QUOTE=Bring-Your-Js]I'm hardly in disagreement with the general point of your post but I just wanted to address the bolded.

"Would of" isn't a logical argument in my view. Conversely, if Kobe had averaged 22.9 FGA per game as Jordan did over his career rather than the 19.2 he has, his ppg numbers would of been about equal. If Del Harris hadn't brought him off the bench his first two seasons, Kobe would of developed more quickly and posted better numbers. If Kobe had a perimeter player the caliber of Scottie Pippen and didn't have to facilitate the offense as he's done and got to play full time wing for the better part of his career, he would of won 10 scoring titles.

^ None of the above pass for acceptable to people in most cases, regardless of "would of" and "what if".[/QUOTE]

the problem with your assertion is that kobe was not ready to play in the playoffs or regular season big minutes his first 2 years. he would have been awful playing a lot of minutes and it actually would have stunted his growth. trust me....if he was ready....they would have played.

the second problem is that kobe would have much less titles playing with a "scottie pippen"....in fact, i don't see how kobe could have won even 1 title in his first 8 years without either playing with shaq or duncan. so that point holds no water at all.

the third problem is that if kobe shot the ball 23 times a game for his career....he would have shot around 42% from the field. and there is not way in hell any coach is going to allow that unless he was playing on terrible teams. so if kobe wanted to win (which he clearly does)...he had to shoot less because he simply isn't good enough offensively to take 23 shots a game and score efficiently enough.

you can't have it both ways. kobe would not have won 1 ring if he didn't have shaq or duncan for his first 8 years....kobe was simply not good enough to be the number 1 option on a title team during that time. yes....his ppg would definitely have gone up....but his efficiency would have gone down as well.

i do agree that playing "what if" is sometimes stupid. and i certainly don't think that jordan needs to be credited with another title because he retired. but if you do play the "what if" game.....at least look at it from both sides.