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[QUOTE=necya]olajuwon, robinson, o'neal and mourning are a lot better than howard.
then, olajuwon, robinson, mourning and mutombo are better defensive players than howard. not even to mention others great defenders of the 90's who were not centers...
that shows the value of his 2 DPOY...[B]the league sucks[/B].[/QUOTE]
Further proof to why I hate people who talk shit about todays league but still watch it.
[QUOTE=Papaya Petee]Further proof to why I hate people who talk shit about todays league but still watch it.[/QUOTE]
Repped.
give me zo every time, better at both ends, dwight is the better rebounder but zo actually had an offensive game and jump shot + the most intimidating defensive big man ever?
to people saying dwight hasnt peaked yet, how exactly do you come to this conclusion, his game has not improved in three years, nothing has changed nothing has improved, he is what he is.
[QUOTE=ukplayer4]give me zo every time, better at both ends, dwight is the better rebounder but zo actually had an offensive game and jump shot + the most intimidating defensive big man ever?[/QUOTE]
Wow, I love Zo as a player, but this is hating on Dwight.
[QUOTE=Papaya Petee]Wow, I love Zo as a player, but this is hating on Dwight.[/QUOTE]
which part?
[QUOTE=ukplayer4]which part?[/QUOTE]
The thing in general, their gap on defense isn't that much at all, and Dwight is the most intimidating defensive presence in the game today. On offence its super close too, Alonzo might have the slighter edge, but Dwight isn't at his peak yet.
As of right now, I would pick Zo over Dwight. Saying Dwight is a better rebounder is misleading because it's based on the stats, team makeup as well of the type of offense played. Zo played with PJ Brown and LJ who were legit power forwards unlike Hedo and Rashard are mostly small forwards. Dwight, being the only guy inside would obviously have a huge chance of getting the rebound without his PF fighting for it. Zo also plays a much slower pace in Pat Riley's grind out offense, therefore few possessions = fewer rebounding chances. All of us agreed that Zo was a better offensive and defensive player than Dwight.
However I do think Dwight is being judged too harsh here. It's not his fault that the rules of the game are very different and the era of the legit skilled center are almost gone ( Yao/Shaq/Duncan ). If Dwight were to played in the 80s/90s era, no doubt Dwight would under Mourning and above Deke. But Dwight would be a better center back then than he would be now because he would have picked up a couple of skills having played against better center competition. Dwight's limited offensive skill makes him a very predictable player, not to mention he's a poor free throw shooter.
Dwight did improve from 2007-2008 to 2008-2009 though he had a down year this year when compared to 2009.
But to say he doesn't have an offensive game is ridiculous. You can't average 21 ppg on 57-60% shooting or 20 ppg for a playoff run or even 18 ppg on 61% and not have an offensive game.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Dwight did improve from 2007-2008 to 2008-2009 though he had a down year this year when compared to 2009.
But to say he doesn't have an offensive game is ridiculous. You can't average 21 ppg on 57-60% shooting or 20 ppg for a playoff run or even 18 ppg on 61% and not have an offensive game.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, sure its not a pretty offensive game, but people act like the guy doesn't know how to put the ball in the bucket at all.
I'm pretty sure only 4-6 points a game come off dunks for him, so where does the rest go?
[QUOTE=Papaya Petee]Exactly, sure its not a pretty offensive game, but people act like the guy doesn't know how to put the ball in the bucket at all.
I'm pretty sure only 4-6 points a game come off dunks for him, so where does the rest go?[/QUOTE]
I'm hoping that working with Olajuwon will help him. I saw a few games midseason where he was shooting a bank shot or 2 a game and he was making a decent amount of them. I remember one game in particular vs Dallas when Howard faced up and made a bank shot from about 12 feet back or so and on the enxt possession he faced up and sort of faked like he was going to shoot one and Haywood guarded him tighter and Howard got to the basket and got fouled. If he did that fairly regularly it'd open up his game so much. And just 1 consistent counter for the jump hook and running hook.
Actually I saw a video of Dwight vs Marcin Gortat in practice and he was killing with bank shots, spin moves, turnaround jumpers. Olajuwon actually told Dwight that he has the skills, he just can't be afraid to use them in games. So maybe confidence is an issue as well.
[QUOTE=greymatter]Focus schmocus. He simply wasn't a good option to run an offense through. His jump hook looked uglier than Anthony Mason's FT technique.[/QUOTE]
Noone said he was better, i said bigsmoke is making it out to be moutombo was some scrub so get of you're high horse.
As of now give me Zo all day, every day.
[QUOTE=Papaya Petee]The thing in general, their gap on defense isn't that much at all, and Dwight is the most intimidating defensive presence in the game today. On offence its super close too, Alonzo might have the slighter edge, but Dwight isn't at his peak yet.[/QUOTE]
well considering there arent any intimidating shotblockers in the league anymore that isnt saying a great deal, zo's dpoy's were actually earned, zo was far more intimidating and just a better shot blocker than dwight, far tougher, that goes without saying, dwight is just a clown and doesnt have any of zo's ferocity. plus, maybe they were close in ppg but zo had a jump shot, and a consistent one at that, ill take him at both ends.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Dwight did improve from 2007-2008 to 2008-2009 though he had a down year this year when compared to 2009.
But to say he doesn't have an offensive game is ridiculous. You can't average 21 ppg on 57-60% shooting or 20 ppg for a playoff run or even 18 ppg on 61% and not have an offensive game.[/QUOTE]
He has an offensive game for the regular season and for "relatively" easy playoffs series. But when it comes the big stage, like in NBA 2009 Finals, his style of game and lack of post moves basicly makes him predictable to guard for a Center, easier and predictable. Just play him a good team defense, make him not get the deep position, force him to throw long hook shots, jump shots...etc etc and you are basicly going to somehow downlow his offensive game.
Not hating on Dwight or saying he is an awful offensive player, but his lack of post moves and range is a big disadvantage when compared to other all-time centers who played this game.
[QUOTE=EarlTheGoat]He has an offensive game for the regular season and for "relatively" easy playoffs series. But when it comes the big stage, like in NBA 2009 Finals, his style of game and lack of post moves basicly makes him predictable to guard for a Center, easier and predictable. Just play him a good team defense, make him not get the deep position, force him to throw long hook shots, jump shots...etc etc and you are basicly going to somehow downlow his offensive game.[/QUOTE]
Eh, I wouldn't call the 2009 ECF relatively easy. Cleveland was an elite defensive team, they were favored and of course, it's the conference finals.
I saw some positive things as the 2010 ECF vs Boston went on as well. He averaged 22 ppg and he did have a couple of off games, but delivered in the last 3 and he had two 30 point games.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Eh, I wouldn't call the 2009 ECF relatively easy. Cleveland was an elite defensive team, they were favored and of course, it's the conference finals.
I saw some positive things as the 2010 ECF vs Boston went on as well. He averaged 22 ppg and he did have a couple of off games, but delivered in the last 3 and he had two 30 point games.[/QUOTE]
To be honest, Cleveland didnt play an impressive defense in the 2009 ECF. Mike Brown is severely underrated as a defensive master coach, he didnt really structured an effective defense against Dwight. No team defense at all, they were basicly letting him reach the low-post at will, and once you let Howard get the deep position you`re done. They tried throwing him Ilgauskas or Wallace and basicly double-team him when neccesary, thats a very elementally defense, specially against players like Howard. A lot of people tend to think that a simple double-team can stop an all-star center, when its basicly not true.
As far as 2010 ECF, I watched almost all the games (except one, im not remembering which) and he struggled at many stretches of the game to get his offensive game. He didnt dominate the Celtics, didnt really came close. Boston Celtics played him a superb defense and I remember Howard taking a lot of forced impossible shots (for his range and quality) and bricking them all, and fouling him when he got the deep position, and since he is a poor FT shooter it worked. Of course, im not talking about letting him under 15 points in every single game, but I think its clear they managed to reduce his impact.
[quote=ukplayer4]well considering there arent any intimidating shotblockers in the league anymore that isnt saying a great deal, zo's dpoy's were actually earned, zo was far more intimidating and just a better shot blocker than dwight, far tougher, that goes without saying, dwight is just a clown and doesnt have any of zo's ferocity. plus, maybe they were close in ppg but zo had a jump shot, and a consistent one at that, ill take him at both ends.[/quote]
good post, repped
Zo easily. its a good comparison as well. both are really about 6'9", 6'10"/6'10" in shoes. Both are very defensive minded. but Zo was just a better player overall.
and a side note: almost every elite center in the 90s are better than any centers today. its a really sad. Shaq is probably the last really great center we'll see for a long time. Dwight is good in his own league, time and peers. But he cannot really compare to the elite centers of the past. Yao could be great but he can really only play limited minutes because of his injury factor.
But the zo/dwight comparison can also not work because of the new rule changes. Big men today are simply not as good as the ones in the 90s or earlier were because of the rule changes. More wing players are penetrating the paint more (because of no handchecking rules) and with the inability to camp out in the lane with a 3 second rule, centers have to be pretty quick to contend the shot and defend the basket. And even if they're late by a nanosecond, its a foul and before you know it they're in foul trouble and it screws up the rest of their game. If you looked carefully in the past, the new rule changes completely changed Shaq's effectiveness sometimes around 2005-2006. Shaq might have also gotten old around then but he had too large of a dropoff to point to just old age only. It was then that I knew that the center position would no longer be the same again.
[QUOTE=G-train]good post, repped[/QUOTE]
Dwight is only 24. He has two to three years before he hits his prime. He's only going to get stronger. By the end of Dwights career he will be better than Zo.
[QUOTE=Big#50]Dwight is only 24. He has two to three years before he hits his prime. He's only going to get stronger. By the end of Dwights career he will be better than Zo.[/QUOTE]
Why are you so sure about that? Who tells you he will improve his game or win rings?
[QUOTE=ukplayer4]to people saying dwight hasnt peaked yet, how exactly do you come to this conclusion, his game has not improved in three years, nothing has changed nothing has improved, he is what he is.[/QUOTE]
Well he definetly improved his footwork as well as his passing out of the post if you watched you should agree. On top of that, why wouldn't you give a 24 year old player who came out of highschool the benefit of the doubt when every other thread about other young players routinely states "they haven't hit their peak yet". I don't know what makes Dwight different.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Zo's number 1 seed Heat lost to the 8th seed Knicks and a 36 year old Ewing on one leg outplayed him in the deciding 5th game in Miami and Zo managed just 8 rpg for the series while a hobbled, old Ewing thoroughly outplayed him.
See how easy that is? Lets not act like Zo was just rolling through the playoffs and didn't have his disappointing games and series.[/QUOTE]
And then Zo comes back in 06 after the implementation of the defensive 3 seconds rule, at 35 years old after kidney altercation, to average 2.7 bpg at a limited 20 mpg. I'm not saying a prime Zo with 40 mpg would get 5.4 blocks, I know it doesn't work that way (and most of his blocks did come from worse teams), but it's definitely something to look at when comparing the interior play of Zo's prime to today's. I'd take Zo, better low post scorer, better man to man defender and equal help defender.
lol the half season Bynum played before the Gasol trade was even better than Dwight.
Dwight is pretty shit.