[QUOTE=Calabis]And made them at a higher percentage:roll:[/QUOTE]
And still never came close to 81. :roll:
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[QUOTE=Calabis]And made them at a higher percentage:roll:[/QUOTE]
And still never came close to 81. :roll:
[QUOTE=oh the horror]Are we really saying Jordan couldnt score like Kobe? REALLY?
Mike had seasons of 37ppg, 35ppg, and various other seasons of over 30ppg, on over 50 percent from the field. Wtf are people even talking about around here?[/QUOTE]
I don't know, because those numbers don't mean shit....he avg 30 or more 8(9 rounding off), yet Kobe did it twice, so he is a better and more consistent scorer:roll:
This is just as simple as laughing it off, and letting someone believe what they want. For a kid to be telling me Kobe is better than Mike, is just laughable.
I dont even know why we try to explain it to them. They obviously didnt watch Jordan much, so why even try? They're basing it off youtube videos, and numbers on paper.
So because Mike's stats are CLEARLY better...the next "argument" is, that Mike's era was "weaker" and stats were "inflated" at the time.....they'll keep coming with newer and newer arguments, but the fact remains...these little fu*kers didnt see most of Jordan's career....so why even try? They have no real leg to stand on imo.
[QUOTE=Calabis]I don't know, because those numbers don't mean shit....he avg 30 or more 8(9 rounding off), yet Kobe did it twice, so he is a better and more consistent scorer:roll:[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but the newest argument now, is that Mike's numbers were "inflated" because of the era he played in.
But MY argument is.....if you DIDNT WATCH MIKE PLAY, THEN YOU JUST DO NOT KNOW. Regardless of whatever you wanna say about era, and who Mike played against, you merely had to watch him play for several seasons, compared to Kobe and his prime years to simply SEE for yourself, that Michael was a superior basketball player.
The proof was in the pudding and clear as day to me.
[QUOTE=Glide2keva]It's not bs, it's the truth. No matter what their record was, they made the playoffs. The raptors didn't and neither did the lakers.
I bring up everything else because point totals dint tell the whe story.[/QUOTE]
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the bulls make the playoffs with 30 wins one year? You can't be serious with saying that cavs team was some great team. They were losing more games than they were winning when jordan dropped 69 on them. They were playing like a losing team regardless of whether it was easier to make the playoffs back in the day. You just can't accept that kobe's cieling for scoring is higher than jordan's so you're reaching with the 'opposition' argument. Jordan had two extra periods of OT and was playing in a faster paced league and he couldn't even sniff 81. Case closed.
[QUOTE=Jacks3]And still never came close to 81. :roll:[/QUOTE]
Because on several of those nights he sat out, he didn't stay in against the leagues worst team and keep jacking for individual glory...which Kobe still does, Gasol called his ass out for chasing a record...."now maybe we can get back to playing team basketball and winning games"
the whole argument is that kobe's a better scorer when hot. it happens rarely, but when he's on nobody in history is better. nobody is saying that he's a better player, or a better scorer in terms of efficiency or volume, stop setting straw-man arguments.
[QUOTE=oh the horror]This is just as simple as laughing it off, and letting someone believe what they want. For a kid to be telling me Kobe is better than Mike, is just laughable.
I dont even know why we try to explain it to them. They obviously didnt watch Jordan much, so why even try? They're basing it off youtube videos, and numbers on paper.
So because Mike's stats are CLEARLY better...the next "argument" is, that Mike's era was "weaker" and stats were "inflated" at the time.....they'll keep coming with newer and newer arguments, but the fact remains...these little fu*kers didnt see most of Jordan's career....so why even try? They have no real leg to stand on imo.[/QUOTE]
your right, good post, its pointless, I agree, I'm out
[QUOTE=oh the horror]Yeah, but the newest argument now, is that Mike's numbers were "inflated" because of the era he played in.
But MY argument is.....if you DIDNT WATCH MIKE PLAY, THEN YOU JUST DO NOT KNOW. Regardless of whatever you wanna say about era, and who Mike played against, you merely had to watch him play for several seasons, compared to Kobe and his prime years to simply SEE for yourself, that Michael was a superior basketball player.
The proof was in the pudding and clear as day to me.[/QUOTE]
Some of these guys around me are ripping on jordan but I'm strictly talking about scoring and their elite scoring games. I admitted jordan>kobe already and know he was a better basketball player.
[QUOTE=Calabis]Because on several of those nights he sat out, he didn't stay in against the leagues worst team and keep jacking for individual glory...which Kobe still does, Gasol called his ass out for chasing a record...."now maybe we can get back to playing team basketball and winning games"[/QUOTE]
first, gasol wasn't calling out kobe, but the entire team. second, kobe has like 5 different games where's he's had 50+ points through three quarters and then sat out the fourth. third, the lakers were down 20 against the raptors. he wasn't "jacking". the lakers needed those points. lol @ acting like jordan didn't play bad teams, or didn't chuck. :roll:
[QUOTE=Calabis]your right, good post, its pointless, I agree, I'm out[/QUOTE]
A biased poster that litters his comments in insults and curse words made a good post? Yeah, okay.
[QUOTE=Jacks3]the whole argument is that kobe's a better scorer when hot. it happens rarely, but when he's on nobody in history is better. nobody is saying that he's a better player, or a better scorer in terms of efficiency or volume, stop setting straw-man arguments.[/QUOTE]
If you say so....any past or current great is that way when hot....Jordan decided to sit out when he set a Finals record(at the time) with 6 three pointers in first half, which could have been more, but he sat out the last 6 1/2 minutes....whats so hard to understand that if he stayed in and kept jacking while in that zone, more shots would've been made...also last time I checked that happened when they said he couldn't shoot three's
what makes MJ so great was not his game but rather his desire to be the best. If MJ was around in this day and age, maybe certain players might have a better game than him. However with the passion and confidence that jordan played with, he would make sure he would improve himself and continue to be a champion. The only player that comes close to the intensity with which jordan played with is probably Kobe. Even then, Jordan's intensity and passion was greater than what we see today with Kobe.
IMO opinion Kobe is the better scorer- Jordan is the better All-around player
[QUOTE=bada bing]what makes MJ so great was not his game but rather his desire to be the best. If MJ was around in this day and age, maybe certain players might have a better game than him. However with the passion and confidence that jordan played with, he would make sure he would improve himself and continue to be a champion. The only player that comes close to the intensity with which jordan played with is probably Kobe. Even then, Jordan's intensity and passion was greater than what we see today with Kobe.[/QUOTE]
I'd consider Kobe a MJ "lite". He is probably the closet thing to a Michael Jordan in today's game. His style of play, and his ethic is similar, but the skills and talent isnt the same. Mike was like a combination of strength, and skill, and his IQ was off the charts. Kobe at times, is kind of a bonehead...He does shit on the court that I question at times, and it seems like he is his own worst enemy. Its hard to describe really, when it comes to Kobe Byrant. I feel like he SHOULD be better than he is most of the time.
[QUOTE=Calabis]If you say so....any past or current great is that way when hot....[/QUOTE]
NOT AS HOT AS BRYANT
i really don't get why you can't except that this. kobe has a better three-point shot, and is much more willing to take them, has more range, which is why he can rake up points so quickly when he's in the zone. even more so than jordan. again, even when jordan was playing in the fast-paced era of the 80's, on some shitty teams, he never came near 81 points. he's still a better scorer overall, but not a good as kobe when both are totally in their absolute zone. FACT.
Maybe people should look at that Toronto team that gave up 81 points.
[QUOTE=Calabis]If you say so....any past or current great is that way when hot....Jordan decided to sit out when he set a Finals record(at the time) with 6 three pointers in first half, which could have been more, but he sat out the last 6 1/2 minutes....whats so hard to understand that if he stayed in and kept jacking while in that zone, more shots would've been made...also last time I checked that happened when they said he couldn't shoot three's[/QUOTE]
Kobe didn't play the 4th Quarter when he outscored the Mavs 62-61. Had Phil played him the whole quarter he could have easily gotten 90pts and a shot at outscoring a team
[QUOTE=Hotlantadude81]Maybe people should look at that Toronto team that gave up 81 points.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I personally prefer his 62 in 3 quarters vs Dallas.
[QUOTE=G-Funk]Kobe didn't play the 4th Quarter when he outscored the Mavs 62-61. Had Phil played him the whole quarter he could have easily gotten 90pts and a shot at outscoring a team[/QUOTE]
Him going for "90 points" is flat out pure speculation. For all you know, Kobe could have gone cold in the 4th, or just merely scored 10 more points, and been done. We cant sit here, and speculate any of that.
[QUOTE=Hotlantadude81]Maybe people should look at that Toronto team that gave up 81 points.[/QUOTE]
I generally dont like to downplay Kobe's 81, because it WAS incredible, but one HAS TO consider this is also a similar Toronto team, that let an old ass Shaq drop 40 on them.
So, if we (some people here) want to consider "era" and people they were playing against, then why dont they consider THAT as well?
[QUOTE=oh the horror]I generally dont like to downplay Kobe's 81, because it WAS incredible, but one HAS TO consider this is also a similar Toronto team, that let an old ass Shaq drop 40 on them.
So, if we (some people here) want to consider "era" and people they were playing against, then why dont they consider THAT as well?[/QUOTE]
If you want to make excuses, jordan scored 69 against a team with a losing record and needed two OTs to do so.
[QUOTE=Jacks3]NOT AS HOT AS BRYANT
i really don't get why you can't except that this. kobe has a better three-point shot, and is much more willing to take them, has more range, which is why he can rake up points so quickly when he's in the zone. even more so than jordan. again, even when jordan was playing in the fast-paced era of the 80's, on some shitty teams, he never came near 81 points. he's still a better scorer overall, but not a good as kobe when both are totally in their absolute zone. FACT.[/QUOTE]
Yet the same guy can't beat 50 in the playoffs in 198 games and counting...
[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Yet the same guy can't beat 50 in the playoffs in 198 playoff games and counting...[/QUOTE]
:facepalm
he had 50 against the Suns a couple of yrs ago. he's had more 30+ and 40+ games in the playoffs than anybody in the league today. scoring in the playoffs isn't a problem for kobe. plus, the sample size is much smaller. again, nobody is saying that kobe is the better scorer in terms of consitency, but he's easily better when hot. only deluded jordan stans like yourself would deny this.
[QUOTE=Ne 1]''Kobe is the best all around player that I have ever coached'' - Phil Jackson during the 2001 playoffs[/QUOTE]
Kobe Bryant 16 triple doubles (0 in playoffs)
Michael Jordan 28 triple doubles (2 more in playoffs) and universally regarded as a better defender than Kobe.
Scottie Pippen 15 triple doubles (3 more in playoffs) and also universally regarded as a better defender than Kobe.
Interesting...but hey, Phil's the coach.
[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Kobe Bryant 16 triple doubles (0 in playoffs)
Michael Jordan 28 triple doubles (2 in playoffs) and universally regarded as a better defender than Kobe.
Scottie Pippen 15 triple doubles (3 in playoffs) and also universally regarded as a better defender than Kobe.
Interesting...but hey, Phil's the coach.[/QUOTE]
clown.
:rolleyes:
Read this yesterday. The article is terrible. How did this guy get hired. Oh wait...it's ESPN.
[QUOTE=Jacks3]:facepalm
he had 50 against the Suns a couple of yrs ago. he's had more 30+ and 40+ games in the playoffs than anybody in the league today. scoring in the playoffs isn't a problem for kobe. plus, the sample size is much smaller. again, nobody is saying that kobe is the better scorer in terms of consitency, but he's easily better when hot. only deluded jordan stans like yourself would deny this.[/QUOTE]
We're not talking about 30+, 40+ games. Jordan could do those regularly. We are talking about the zone you say Jordan could never reach. 70+, 80+ games. And you're right. Jordan never reached that zone. So you argue that Kobe's scoring ceiling is higher. I'M saying Kobe never topped 50 in the playoffs. So Kobe somehow loses the ability to reach that ceiling in the playoffs. I know Kobe could score 40+. Hell, I know Kobe could score 50+ in the playoffs if he wanted to. Maybe 60 if he made it his goal.
But I'm also saying Jordan could have done more in the regular season by the same reasoning.
[QUOTE=G-Funk]Kobe didn't play the 4th Quarter when he outscored the Mavs 62-61. Had Phil played him the whole quarter he could have easily gotten 90pts and a shot at outscoring a team[/QUOTE]
And again he shot 25 free throws, more than Jordan 63 point effort in a full game
[QUOTE=Da_Realist]We're not talking about 30+, 40+ games. Jordan could do those regularly. We are talking about the zone you say Jordan could never reach. 70+, 80+ games. And you're right. Jordan never reached that zone. So you argue that Kobe's scoring ceiling is higher. I'M saying Kobe never topped 50 in the playoffs. So Kobe somehow loses the ability to reach that ceiling in the playoffs. I know Kobe could score 40+. Hell, I know Kobe could score 50+ in the playoffs if he wanted to. Maybe 60 if he made it his goal.
But I'm also saying Jordan could have done more in the regular season by the same reasoning.[/QUOTE]
No, that logic only counts when it favors Kobe.
[QUOTE=Ne 1][IMG]http://oi52.tinypic.com/2zdnbeo.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://oi52.tinypic.com/b46dcz.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://oi55.tinypic.com/5lqbsy.jpg[/IMG]
[COLOR="Cyan"]Blue[/COLOR]: Isolation era+Handchecking
[COLOR="Red"]Red[/COLOR]: Zone era+Handchecking (Best defensive era in NBA history)
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]Green[/COLOR]: Zone Era without handchecking
[B]Conclusion[/B]: Clearly stats from the 80s and 90s - both PPG+FG%- are inflated, due to faster run-and-gun pace (think 2005 Suns, 2007 Warriors), inferior defense, and inferior players.[/QUOTE]
LMAO... how about, players ran their offense much more efficiently and shot higher percentage shots....again Bird was a premier 3 pt shooter and he only shot 270+ once...Kobe no where near the 3 point shooter Bird was and has 300+ more attempts 7 times...also why do you morons keep ignoring the AND 1/One on One crap, most players play today, they dribble the entire shot clock out, before jacking ill advised shots, maybe that has something to do with it. Or how about the fact that Offensive Rebounds have declined???
In '84-85, offenses grabbed the board on 32.9 percent of missed shots, but by '03-04 that had declined to 28.7 percent. That difference has cost offenses 2.0 points per game, and it probably results from 3-point shooters being spaced too far away from the basket to have a prayer of getting an offensive board.
NBA Offense: Then and Now 1984-85 2003-04 Change
Points per game 110.8 to 93.4= -17.4
Possessions/game 104.8 to 92.0= -12.8
Points/possession 1.05 to 1.01= -.04
Field-goal pct. 49.1 to 43.9= -5.2
Free-throw pct. 76.4 to 75.2= -1.2
3-point pct. 28.1 to 34.7= +6.6
Off. Rebound pct. 32.9 to 28.7= -4.2
FTA/FGA .330 to .303= -.207
Turnovers/possession .169 to .154= -.015
Since '84-85, field-goal percentages have sunk roughly in proportion to Billy Squier's albums sales, from 49.1 percent to 43.9 percent last season. Sharp minds in the audience will quickly note that the 3-pointer is a much more prevalent part of modern offenses (teams try more than five times as many as they did two decades ago), so we should expect field-goal percentages to be lower in return for the greater payoff. Yet even allowing for the rise of the 3-pointer, shooting is still in the dumpster. Teams averaged 0.99 points for each field-goal attempt in 1984-85, but just 0.94 last season. That five-hundreths of a percentage point difference is enough to subtract 2.9 points a game from offenses.
That goes to underscore that the 3-pointer has, on balance, not had much of an effect. On the one hand, players shoot the long bomb much more accurately than twenty years ago -- improving from 28.1 percent to 34.7 percent -- which has added 1.9 points per game to scoring.
But there's a hidden cost to all of those 3s. Because they're bombing away instead of going to the rim, teams are getting to the line much less often. Teams took 0.33 free-throws per field-goal attempt back then, but only 0.30 last season, a change that cost teams about 1.7 points a game -- giving back nearly all of the difference from the increase in 3-point accuracy.
[QUOTE=G-Funk]IMO opinion Kobe is the better scorer- Jordan is the better All-around player[/QUOTE]
Yet nothing in Kobe's scoring avg's prove this theory
[QUOTE=tpols]If you want to make excuses, jordan scored 69 against a team with a losing record and needed two OTs to do so.[/QUOTE]
And he took only 37 shots last time I chk'd
[QUOTE=Glide2keva]No, that logic only counts when it favors Kobe.[/QUOTE]
Seems that way. "He didn't, therefore he couldn't have" only works against Jordan. :facepalm Jordan never scored 81 but it wasn't because he couldn't. It was because to score that many points, you have to let other stuff slide. You're not distributing, you're not rebounding, you're not playing defense. You're ONLY concerned with scoring. Jordan scored a lot but wasn't willing to give up everything in a mercenary attempt to score as many points as possible.
[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Seems that way. "He didn't, therefore he couldn't have" only works against Jordan. :facepalm Jordan never scored 81 but it wasn't because he couldn't. It was because to score that many points, you have to let other stuff slide. You're not distributing, you're not rebounding, you're not playing defense. You're ONLY concerned with scoring. Jordan scored a lot but wasn't willing to give up everything in a mercenary attempt to score as many points as possible.[/QUOTE]
We have a winner!!!
[QUOTE=Calabis]And he took only 37 shots last time I chk'd[/QUOTE]
Something that keeps eluding them and something they can't comprehend.
I mean... if Kobe managed to shoot 46 times in only 41 minutes, doesn't a red light go on at some point in which some sort of logic starts to kick in?
I agree that Kobe was hot, and other players in the history of the game (including Kobe himself) have been as hot if not hotter. But they didn't manage to shoot that many shots in that time span.
Doesn't that say anything about the defense?
Kobe also managed to take almost the same amount of fts in less time (Mj shot 23 in 50 minutes of play and Kobe shot 20 in 41.56 minutes of play) that's near 8 minutes.
I'm not a mathematician so can somebody calculate what the shot and ft attempts per minute are?
Again.... this represents the type of defense that Kobe was going up against.
And let us not forget that Melo the very next night, against the same team was on pace to score over 100 pts as well.
[QUOTE=andgar923]Something that keeps eluding them and something they can't comprehend.
I mean... if Kobe managed to shoot 46 times in only 41 minutes, doesn't a red light go on at some point in which some sort of logic starts to kick in?
I agree that Kobe was hot, and other players in the history of the game (including Kobe himself) have been as hot if not hotter. But they didn't manage to shoot that many shots in that time span.
Doesn't that say anything about the defense?
Kobe also managed to take almost the same amount of fts in less time (Mj shot 23 in 50 minutes of play and Kobe shot 20 in 41.56 minutes of play) that's near 8 minutes.
I'm not a mathematician so can somebody calculate what the shot and ft attempts per minute are?
Again.... this represents the type of defense that Kobe was going up against.
And let us not forget that Melo the very next night, against the same team was on pace to score over 100 pts as well.[/QUOTE]
:applause:
Since they love charts, here is one for you 14 of top 27
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Basketball_Association_top_individual_game_scores"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Basketball_Association_top_individual_game_scores[/URL]
[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Seems that way. "He didn't, therefore he couldn't have" only works against Jordan. :facepalm Jordan never scored 81 but it wasn't because he couldn't. It was because to score that many points, you have to let other stuff slide. You're not distributing, you're not rebounding, you're not playing defense. You're ONLY concerned with scoring. Jordan scored a lot but wasn't willing to give up everything in a mercenary attempt to score as many points as possible.[/QUOTE]
:bowdown:
Are jordan fans all seriously all sucking each other's ***** after losing the initial debate?:oldlol: Haha typical response:roll: :bowdown:
Kobe had no problems with MJ's comments. Much ado about nothing.