The Finals really ruined lebron - i mean just before the finals...

i don't think kobe's series is easily better, but i have to laugh at calling shatattack a kobe stan. wow.

LeBron loves being a ****** in big moments!! HE FVCKING LOVES IT!! Good for you LeBron, you OWN you ******ness!!!

I see Gino has gone full troll mode.

nothing wrong with being a heel :applause:

[QUOTE=PowerGlove]Yeah if he would have sealed the deal, that would have been one of the greatest postseason runs I have ever seen. This dude was killing people.

The good thing is that we know he has it in him to finish games. Hopefully he will come back next year with some new moves and be more assertive.[/QUOTE]

Lol... LBJ has been in the league for almost 10 years now...almost all fails.

He doesn't have it in him. And when people thought he was clutch against the Wizards? The dude traveled on every drive, including the game winner.

[QUOTE=The_Yearning]Lol... LBJ has been in the league for almost 10 years now...almost all fails.

He doesn't have it in him. And when people thought he was clutch against the Wizards? The dude traveled on every drive, including the game winner.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[IMG]http://sportschump.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/lebron-james-cleveland-cavs-championship.jpg[/IMG]

:roll:

[QUOTE=28renyoy]yet he still choked on the biggest stage in basketball[/QUOTE]

Biggest "stage"? Playoffs are the biggest stage, there is no difference between a series except better (or worse) teams. The only difference between "1st round" and "Finals" is just that, that text... you lose 1st round and you are out of playoffs, you lose in the Finals and you are out of the playoffs.
Its actually more embarassing to lose earlier than later in playoffs, playoffs are the "biggest stage" or "where everything matters", the different rounds are only different series/teams.

I wonder also what the excuse would be if Lebron didnt come to Miami, because Wade sure didnt "choke" against Mavs and they still losed (actually they would probably even get swept considering the lack of Lebrons productions or they would probably not even been in the Finals).

My point is, this is a team game, the better team will win, not the better player, sorry, we have seen Lebron prove that over and over in the playoffs (including Jordan, Kobe and many other superstars, many who didnt even got a ring proved that to).

I thought many in ISH were just being sarcastic, joking, to bash Lebron or something, but i figured many here are seriously that illiterate to believe a Championship is NOT a team accomplishment and is actually the result of ONE MAN? That logic still doesnt make sense, because if you looked back at example Jordans playoffs runs i seriously couldnt find a single game he "choked", he produced like nobody and he would still not win a championship until he really got the required cast to do it when he was 27-28 years old. Michael Jordan before 1991 actually i think was a much better player than in any of his championship runs, he was much more productive, explosive, the only difference was that he had much more help.

Its ok if you hate Lebron, i dont care, but please dont come with delusionism / ridicilous statements. Its easier to just say "I HATE LEBRON", very simple, stop making stuff up.

Man yall still havent realized he just got a huge paycheck from the mob for throwing the finals...The man said his biggest goals is to become the first billinaire athlete...

Give the man a break wat else is he suppose to do...Not throw the game and get his legs broken..I mean gosh :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[COLOR="White"]If this is not the case then he is just a lowsy ass finals performer[/COLOR]

[quote]the finals just showed his true colors.[/quote]

**Cue Cyndi Lauper music**

[QUOTE=sh0wtime]Biggest "stage"? Playoffs are the biggest stage, there is no difference between a series except better (or worse) teams. The only difference between "1st round" and "Finals" is just that, that text... you lose 1st round and you are out of playoffs, you lose in the Finals and you are out of the playoffs.
Its actually more embarassing to lose earlier than later in playoffs, playoffs are the "biggest stage" or "where everything matters", the different rounds are only different series/teams.

I wonder also what the excuse would be if Lebron didnt come to Miami, because Wade sure didnt "choke" against Mavs and they still losed (actually they would probably even get swept considering the lack of Lebrons productions or they would probably not even been in the Finals).

My point is, this is a team game, the better team will win, not the better player, sorry, we have seen Lebron prove that over and over in the playoffs (including Jordan, Kobe and many other superstars, many who didnt even got a ring proved that to).

I thought many in ISH were just being sarcastic, joking, to bash Lebron or something, but i figured many here are seriously that illiterate to believe a Championship is NOT a team accomplishment and is actually the result of ONE MAN? That logic still doesnt make sense, because if you looked back at example Jordans playoffs runs i seriously couldnt find a single game he "choked", he produced like nobody and he would still not win a championship until he really got the required cast to do it when he was 27-28 years old. Michael Jordan before 1991 actually i think was a much better player than in any of his championship runs, he was much more productive, explosive, the only difference was that he had much more help.

Its ok if you hate Lebron, i dont care, but please dont come with delusionism / ridicilous statements. Its easier to just say "I HATE LEBRON", very simple, stop making stuff up.[/QUOTE]
So Lebron has no help. Gotcha

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I'm not preaching anything. I'm trying to understand what you are saying. I have no problem with you saying Kobe's game 4 was slightly better. I personally think in terms of overall impact they were pretty even. However, I have no issue with saying one is slightly better than the other.

My issue was with you saying that Lebron played horribly his last three games. And then you turn around and credit Kobe for playing a "good" game 4. That doesn't make sense to me. Especially given the circumstances of each game for the two players and the similar outcome. I don't see how one can be considered "good" and one "poor".....that isn't consistent.

As to the rebounding. I never said Kobe's 15 boards weren't important. I said they don't make a bad game good. And Kobe played a shit game in game 7. I don't know how anyone can dispute that. I've been very clear on that. Its not even about missing shots for me. Its about him taking so many terrible shots and clearly forcing the issue in a do or die game that was on the verge of a blowout. I don't respect that kind of play. Now, if Kobe had taken those shots in the normal flow and they had been good looks? I'd have no problem with it. Again, I've been consistent about that from the beginning and you won't see my trumpeting Lebron's game 6.

However, I'm again confused as to why Lebron is getting hated on for his game 6. Did he play well? Not really. His stats are much better than his play. Did he play poorly? Hell no. He kept his team alive in the 2nd half after Mo, as usual, couldn't get it done when it really matters. Or how Jamison, a career shrinker in big games and moments, came up with a solid 2 of 10 for 5 points while KG roasted him for 22 and 12.

Do I think Lebron played awesome in games 4 and 6. Nope, but he hardly played as bad as you and others are letting on. You act like he just was awful...and thats not the case.

And I'm still confused by the people (not saying you are one of them) that hate on Lebron for game 6 and give Kobe a pass for game 7. How is that fair or consistent.

And furthermore, how is it fair to say Kobe's series was "easily better" when Lebron shot 5% better from the field (scoring only .8 less ppg), got to the ft line more often, rebounded the ball better, created more scoring chances for his teammates, forced more steals, had more blocks, and played better defense. I don't get it. And he lost in 6. To a better team. A team that had Perkins for all 6. And Lebron did that playing with far less help from his teammates and coach than Kobe had.

Saying Kobe was "easily better" is exactly why people laugh at Kobe fans. Its just simply not true by any standard or measure. Only in the hugely biased mind of Kobe stans can a statement like that make sense.[/QUOTE]

Okay, maybe saying that he played awful is an exaggeration. He was definitely awful in game 5. I see where you're coming from in games 4 and 6. I don't think he played well in either of those games by any means, but I'll agree with you that saying they are awful is a bit of a push. Especially because of how his teammates (Jamison and Mo specifically) wilted and died in that series.

Kobe's game 7 was definitely not a good game by any stretch of the imagination. After the first half, I was honestly disgusted. Kobe was visibly scared and shook by the situation. The Celtics looked the same way, but it was very disappointing seeing Kobe looking and playing so vulnerable.

Luckily, like you said, his team was good enough that their defense kept them in the game and they were able to rally back from 13 down in the 3rd. Despite playing an overall poor game, I don't think Kobe gets enough credit for his 4th quarter. 10 points with two huge buckets to create a little distance and put LA in the lead for good. Played very aggressively (the opposite of what LeBron did) and adjusted for his poor shooting by getting the line. Pulled down a couple huge rebounds in traffic. Did the little things to get his team the win.

Again, not saying it was a good game at all, but at the end of the day, he came through despite playing like dog shit for 3 quarters. I feel like he deserves a little credit for that, imo. But LA as a team won that game. Huge rebounds by Pau, great game from Ron, big 3 by Fisher in the late stages of the 4th quarter, etc.

[QUOTE=Doranku]Okay, maybe saying that he played awful is an exaggeration. He was definitely awful in game 5. I see where you're coming from in games 4 and 6. I don't think he played well in either of those games by any means, but I'll agree with you that saying they are awful is a bit of a push. Especially because of how his teammates (Jamison and Mo specifically) wilted and died in that series.

Kobe's game 7 was definitely not a good game by any stretch of the imagination. After the first half, I was honestly disgusted. Kobe was visibly scared and shook by the situation. The Celtics looked the same way, but it was very disappointing seeing Kobe looking and playing so vulnerable.

Luckily, like you said, his team was good enough that their defense kept them in the game and they were able to rally back from 13 down in the 3rd. Despite playing an overall poor game, I don't think Kobe gets enough credit for his 4th quarter. 10 points with two huge buckets to create a little distance and put LA in the lead for good. Played very aggressively (the opposite of what LeBron did) and adjusted for his poor shooting by getting the line. Pulled down a couple huge rebounds in traffic. Did the little things to get his team the win.

Again, not saying it was a good game at all, but at the end of the day, he came through despite playing like dog shit for 3 quarters. I feel like he deserves a little credit for that, imo. But LA as a team won that game. Huge rebounds by Pau, great game from Ron, big 3 by Fisher in the late stages of the 4th quarter, etc.[/QUOTE]

So it sounds like we are more in agreement. Again, I'm not that one taking the absurd stance. That would be the people claiming Kobe's series was "easily better".....nothing supports this.

Oh, and doing all the little things to help a team win should be a positive note for Kobe in game 7. Just remember that he wouldn't have that chance if he didn't get help.

Somehow I just don't see Kobe having the chance to win that game if Artest had put up 5 points and 5 boards on 20% shooting and playing shit defense like Jamison did. Artest played a very good game 7:

20 points 5 boards 5 steals on 39% shooting and played rock solid man to man defense as well as getting his hands on 5 steals.

Don't you think those two circumstances are a little different? Kobe got a ton of help from Artest and Pau.....and Fisher made a huge shot late in the 4th as well.

Conversely, Lebron did a lot of help from Mo in the first half, but got nothing from anyone else the entire game. Absolutely nothing. Jamison/Shaq/Parker/Andy/Z/West all came up as small as possible combined.

Since when has Bron ever been called clutch in his career? He's called LeBrick for a reason...

One of the few here that believes Kobe played better against Boston, with ease.

- didn't quit
- was more poised
- was more clutch
- had better intangibles (scoring when the team needed it/played great man to man defense on Rondo)
- displayed better leadership

Someone who wilted under pressure (or quit) 10/10 times will never be in the same conversation with someone who despite shooting worse/putting up slightly worse all-around numbers, gave it his all, was clutch and lead his team to a W.

[QUOTE=catch24]One of the few here that believes Kobe played better against Boston, with ease.

- didn't quit
- was more poised
- was more clutch
- had better intangibles (scoring when the team needed it/played great man to man defense on Rondo)
- displayed better leadership

Someone who wilted under pressure/quit 10/10 times will never play better than a guy, who despite shooting worse and put up slightly worse all-around numbers, gave it his all, was clutch and lead his team to a W.[/QUOTE]

Are you talking about the series or game 7? I can understand if you think Kobe's game 7 was better. I disagree, but its not unreasonable. But if you are talking about the series I just don't see it.

Because Kobe was the exact opposite of clutch in that series. He was dreadful in the 4th qtrs and crunch time....he was not the one making the big shots at any point in that series.

Kobe played great man to man defense? Ok, lets say I agree, even though I don't. Lebron played better man to man defense against a superior player. Lebron flat out shut Pierce down to the point where people were asking Pierce if he was hurt he was playing so bad. Pierce had his worst playoff game against Lebron....and 4 of his worst 5 in the playoffs as well.

No doubt Kobe hampered Rondo, but that had a lot to do with the scheme and front line defense. You should go back and check out the Orlando series. Rondo was really bad. He played almost identical against them.....and it had everything to do with the way the Magic played him and Howard in the paint.

All the other stuff is highly debatable. And LOL at using poise for Kobe. He was anything but poised in games 2 and 3. If Fisher doesn't turn in to Michael Jordan at the end of game 3, Kobe's lack of clutch play and poise kills them. And of course, Kobe had no poise whatsoever in game 7....jacking up terrible shot after terrible shot digging his team a 13 point 2nd half deficit.......and then heavily relied on Fisher/Artest/Pau to make the big plays late in that game.


Better? Sure...debatable.

Easily better? No way in hell.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Are you talking about the series or game 7? I can understand if you think Kobe's game 7 was better. I disagree, but its not unreasonable. But if you are talking about the series I just don't see it.

Because Kobe was the exact opposite of clutch in that series. He was dreadful in the 4th qtrs and crunch time....he was not the one making the big shots at any point in that series.

Kobe played great man to man defense? Ok, lets say I agree, even though I don't. Lebron played better man to man defense against a superior player. Lebron flat out shut Pierce down to the point where people were asking Pierce if he was hurt he was playing so bad. Pierce had his worst playoff game against Lebron....and 4 of his worst 5 in the playoffs as well.

No doubt Kobe hampered Rondo, but that had a lot to do with the scheme and front line defense. You should go back and check out the Orlando series. Rondo was really bad. He played almost identical against them.....and it had everything to do with the way the Magic played him and Howard in the paint.

All the other stuff is highly debatable. And LOL at using poise for Kobe. He was anything but poised in games 2 and 3. If Fisher doesn't turn in to Michael Jordan at the end of game 3, Kobe's lack of clutch play and poise kills them. And of course, Kobe had no poise whatsoever in game 7....jacking up terrible shot after terrible shot digging his team a 13 point 2nd half deficit.......and then heavily relied on Fisher/Artest/Pau to make the big plays late in that game.


Better? Sure...debatable.

Easily better? No way in hell.[/QUOTE]

The series.

You don't see it, I do. When someone quits during the middle of a series, they lose all credibility. Simple and plain, no ifs and or buts about it. When you're comparing that series to someone's who may have embed slightly worse all-around numbers, but still had better in-game means, it's not really all that close. Kobe treated the game with respect, LeBron did not. The guy tried coming back next game and still had a similar mentality, except he finished with a triple double. He also had 9 turnovers, which in turn made it one of the more deceiving/overrated TD's in playoff history (kind of like that TD in Dallas this past Finals--looks great on paper but much like LeBron's career, he came up short when in mattered most).

[QUOTE=catch24]The series.

You don't see it, I do. When someone quits during the middle of a series, they lose all credibility. Simple and plain, no ifs and or buts about it. When you're comparing that series to someone's who may have embed slightly worse all-around numbers, still had better in-game means. Kobe treated the game with respect, LeBron did not. The guy tried coming back next game and still had a similar mentality, except he finished with a triple double. He also had 9 turnovers, which in turn made it one of the more deceiving/overrated TD's in playoff history (kind of like that TD in Dallas this past Finals--looks great on paper but much like LeBron's career, he came up short when in mattered most).[/QUOTE]

If you want to claim he quit for the series, then that is your opinion and that is fine. I don't see how anyone can claim he quit in the first 4 games or how he quit in game 6.

I don't think anyone here is being even remotely fair in factoring in the completely different circumstances. The idea of Kobe playing well enough to win that series with Lebron's help is just laughable. Honestly, I'm not sure Kobe could have gotten that series to a game 6 in place of Lebron.

Nobody is saying....OMG Lebron had a triple double in game 6...he played awesome. At least I'm not. But to say he was bad in that game and then turn around and credit Kobe for things might not even exist is just silly.

Again, you have to factor in the circumstances a little. Lebron having less help. Lebron having a worse coach. Lebron playing a healthy Celtics team. That stuff matters.

And like I said, its the "with ease" horseshit that needs to stop. Nothing "easily" or "with ease" about it....especially when pretty much every objective measure favors Lebron.....

And he did it facing much more difficult circumstances and carrying a heavier burden on both ends.

It's not what I'm "claiming", it's what it was...

[url]http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100512&sportCat=nba[/url] -- his biggest Cheerleader wrote a play-by-play of his "quit-job"

He plays the way he did this past Finals (in the 4th quarters) and it becomes more and more obvious the guy just lays down when the pressure is too great. He quit in 2010 and ran away completely this past year.

Just calling it like I see it.

[QUOTE=catch24]It's not what I'm "claiming", it's what it was...

[url]http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100512&sportCat=nba[/url] -- his biggest Cheerleader wrote a play-by-play of his "quit-job"

He plays the way he did this past Finals (in the 4th quarters) and it becomes more and more obvious the guy just lays down when the pressure is too great. I say he quit in 2010 and ran away completely this past year.

Just calling it like I see it.[/QUOTE]

And I could say the same thing about Kobe. He lays down. In fact, he's laid down more than Lebron has throughout his career.

But that is not what this is about. Lets say he absolutely quit in game 5. You can't lose a series in 1 game. You can only lose 1 game in 1 game.

And again, he still played as well or better than Kobe for the series quitting or not. How sad is that? He has no help and "quits"....and still manages to outproduce Kobe and play better defense.

But yea, Kobe was "easily" better.......:facepalm

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]And I could say the same thing about Kobe. He lays down. In fact, he's laid down more than Lebron has throughout his career.[/quote]

Of course you could, but you can't call LeBron a champion, something Kobe is.

He quit when the series was tied 2-2, at home. That's as bad as it gets.

Again, whether he played better than Kobe a few more games is irrelevant. He quit when it mattered, and laid down the next game. 3 great games vs Kobe's 3-4 good/great games and a Finals MVP. Like I said, not close.

You think someone who "quit" during the middle of a series played just as well as someone who put up slightly-less all-around numbers, but was more clutch, had better intangibles, and came up with a W. That's fine, hilarious, but your opinion nevertheless.

You will never change my opinion, stop trying.

[QUOTE=catch24]Of course you could, but you can't call LeBron a champion, something Kobe is.

He quit when the series was tied 2-2, at home. That's as bad as it gets.

Again, whether he played better than Kobe a few more games is irrelevant. He quit when it mattered, and laid down the next game. 3 great games vs Kobe's 3-4 good/great games and a Finals MVP. Like I said, not close.

You think someone who "quit" during the middle of a series played just as well as someone who put up slightly-less all-around numbers, but was more clutch, had better intangibles, and came up with a W. That's fine, hilarious, but your opinion nevertheless.

You will never change my opinion, stop trying.[/QUOTE]


You will never change my opinion, stop trying.

Hilarious? The only thing hilarious is saying its "not close"

So do you think Dirk's finals in 11 were "easily" better than Kobe's finals in 08?

And stop saying Kobe was clutch. He wasn't. He was actually the exact opposite. Intangibles? When? When he nearly killed his team in game 3 playing like an idiot? Or when he nearly killed his team in game 7 playing like an idiot? When he crumbled in crunch time in game 2?

Lebron played better defense. Do you dispute this?

With ease? GTFO.....

LBJ can bounce back and play great, but his legacy took a hit though.

[QUOTE=Mamba]never said he didn't. i know he did, but how can someone who did that ^^ just turn into a nothingman on the court.[/QUOTE]Excellent Zone defense, coupled with cowardice and [B]deference under pressure[/b].