I'm out.
Apparently 5 percentage points only count when it pertains to FG%. If you people think LeBron is comparable to Kobe as an all-around shooter, that's on you.
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I'm out.
Apparently 5 percentage points only count when it pertains to FG%. If you people think LeBron is comparable to Kobe as an all-around shooter, that's on you.
[QUOTE=LA_Showtime]... Just watch the games. It's painfully obvious that Kobe is the better mid-range scorer. The gap widens even further when you look at Kobe's prime.[/QUOTE]
Another thing to add on to all of the statistical evidence is that Kobe doesn't get near the air space Lebron does on his jumpshot. Teams respect Lebron's drive a whole lot more than they respect his shot, so they'll always give him some room to prevent the blow by. Kobe on the other hand, has always been a midrange shooter.. it's his bread and butter. Defenders would rather him get by them and have to deal with their big men than give him an open look at the basket from midrange distance. So really Lebron isn't close.
If you were to line these guys up in a gym and make them take 100 jumpers from 5 different midrange points Kobe would smoke Lebron. He just has better form and accuracy. Kobe's a flat out better shooter.
[QUOTE=StacksOnDeck]Lol @ Indian kid still pretending to be a Bulls fan.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/MitchMatch/azgsvp.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=catch24]Where have I argued otherwise? Kobe attempts 3% more and still shoots a better % over the course of 5 seasons.[/quote]
WTF? :oldlol:. I love your selective amnesia where you continue to ignore we are comparing 10-11 LeBron to Kobe here. So no, Kobe doesn't shoot better than LeBron from 16-23 feet over the last 5 seasons. He's 5% worse, in fact.
[quote]How is 47% to 50% shooting significant?[/quote]
Where's the correlation? A superior FG% is accomplished by actually making a higher percentage of your shots. There's no accomplishment in simply jacking up more shots, and that too by such a minimal amount - 3% more from 16-23 feet and 5% more 10-15 feet. These numbers couldn't be more meaningless.
[quote]Kobe is better from 10-15 FT from his career by at least 7%[/quote]
Here we go :oldlol:. We are only comparing 10-11 LeBron to Kobe, dumbass. Stop talking about what LeBron's done prior to 10-11. Nobody's saying he was in Kobe's league as a shooter then.
[quote]My argument was confronted with stupidty. I had to bring out the volume (and stats) because your stupid ass is allergic to reality.[/quote]
We have already established that the difference in their volumes is completely insignificant. LeBron and Kobe pretty much shoot the same amount of shots from 10-23 feet, and since 10-11 LeBron's percentages match up very well against any version of Kobe, the logical conclusion is that your original statement of Kobe being way better couldn't be further from the truth.
[QUOTE=chazzy]Because we're comparing the efficiency of the two, not the total points produced from their attempts.[/quote]
It's the same thing. When we adjust for pace to deduce the league's best offensive team, we DON'T say [i]Could SA keep up their efficiency had they played at GS's pace?[/i]. How's this any different? The difference in Kobe and LeBron's volume is SO minimal that it's completely nonsensical to think LeBron wouldn't maintain his efficiency with increased FGA.
what's really funny is trying to cherry pick stats to compare lebron's best shooting season ever to kobe's worst. even so, considering clutchness, free throws and defense played on each, kobe easily comes out on top. it's so obvious that if you were to take a poll of all the nba players in the league, i bet 99% (probably 100%) would vote for kobe clearly being the better shooter. yet here you are trying to argue what's obvious to anyone that plays the game. at least we all know where you two lebron homers [B]stan[/B]d, or maybe i should say sit.
One last post:
Notice how Indian Guy is all over the place with the years he's comparing? I was talking about the 2010-2011 season where Kobe shot better from 10-15 FT by 7% (rounded) on 1+ attempt ([url]http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Kobe%20Bryant[/url]) and he switches it up to, well, 16-23 FT - [I]where LeBron has been better this season than any of Kobe's seasons in the past [/I](going back to 2007). Now for people who can comprehend the English Language, did Indian-Idiot not just compare LeBron to Kobe the past 5 seasons?
I respond, saying Kobe was better than LeBron in 2007 from 16-23 FT because he made 42% of his shots from there on 3+ more attempts! What is this clowns response? [I]Don't dimish LeBron's jumpshot just because he he is more effective from the inside.[/I]
What a f*cking joke this kid is. How do you begin to debate someone with their head that far up LeBron's ass?
Again, for the last time - Kobe (since you indirectly made the comparison more than just a season) was better than LeBron, as a shooter, not just from 16-23 FT, during the 2006-2007 season.
Anyone is welcome to look for themselves ([url]http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Kobe%20Bryant)[/url]. Notice the volume of shots from 16-23FT, the better % from 10-15 FT, and of course, the better FT shooting).
[QUOTE=Indian guy]Watch the games, nobody's playing LeBron for the drive anymore. He's as tightly guarded as anyone.[/QUOTE]
oh my.. not sure if serious...
[QUOTE=YAWN]oh my.. not sure if serious...[/QUOTE]
lol
Kobe is a better mid range shooter than LeBron. That's a fact. It's not that big of a deal, anyway. That doesn't make him the superior player IMO.
This thread is about Kobe's lame ass dunk anyway...not LBJ
Do you guys relize that FT percentage is the ultimate way of checking how good a player is at shooting the basketball? Pick any of the greatest shooters in the game~ Nash, Dirk, Ray Allen, etc. literally anyone of them. They ALL shoot like 90% from the stripe. Then look at all of the terrible shooters.. Shaq, Ben Wallace.. they shoot terribly from the line. Free throw shooting is a great benchmark of form, confidence in the shot, and overall accuracy. You cant just compare raw data with these guys because one is played for the shot and one is played for the drive.. and the one who faces more pressure on his jumpshot STILL is more efficient.
FT Shooting 10-11:
Kobe: 83%
Lebron: 76%
It's not even close. Lebron's shot doesn't compare whatsoever to Kobe's. The only reason Lebron shot better from the midrange this year than he did in previous years is because he had less overall defensive attention on him[because of Wade and Bosh].
[QUOTE=catch24]One last post:
Notice how Indian Guy is all over the place with the seasons he's comparing?[/quote]
Sure you aren't talking about yourself? When have I ever not compared 10-11 LeBron to ONLY 07-11 Kobe in this thread?
[quote]I was talking about the 2010-2011 season[/quote]
You mean the season you kept dis-including initially because you felt Kobe was [i]injured and returning from surgery[/i]? Why suddenly approve of this season now after completely discounting it at the beginning?
[quote]What is this clowns response? [I]Don't dimish LeBron's jumpshot this season just because he he is more effective from the inside.[/I][/quote]
Which was a perfectly legit response to explain the completely miniscule difference(4%) between their FGA from 10-23 feet. 07-11 Kobe, for all purposes, wasn't shooting jumpers any more than LeBron was in 10-11.
[quote]Again, for the last time - Kobe (since you indirectly made the comparison more than this season)[/quote]
I was taking his average over the last 5 seasons, not comparing singular seasons. And even if we pretend 06-07 was [i]on a different level than LeBron[/i](even though all data disagrees), you are basing your opinion of Kobe>>>>>>>>>LeBron TODAY based on what happened 5 years ago? WTF??
Indian guy, you're wrong. It's okay. Also remove the Bulls avy. You never post about them.
Can't help myself (honestly, I just wanna know why IG fights reality)... Sue me.
Does Kobe not shoot better than LeBron from the Freethrow line and 10-15 FT, by at LEAST 14%+ all-together? Where as LeBron, just this last two seasons (but we're only comparing and contrasting this year) only shoots better from 3PT and 16-23 FT (8% better all-together), correct?
Now when factoring how they're covered (remember Kobe is [I]strictly[/I] a jumpshooter now), do the numbers not back that Kobe is easily a better all-around shooter?
btw when did mid 70 % wing ft shooters become good shooters? :oldlol:
in b4 kobe starts raping the nba again
well here we go again
[QUOTE=kaiiu]btw when did mid 70 % wing ft shooters become good shooters? :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Mcgrady was hovering around the mid 70's for a while. I don't think he was a bad shooter at all. It's just more often than not, a guy shooting 7-8%+ better from the charity stripe is gonna be a better shooter.
[QUOTE=catch24]
Now when factoring how they're covered[/quote]
There's no difference between how LeBron and Kobe are covered anymore. This isn't 2007.
[quote]do the numbers not back that Kobe is easily a better all-around shooter?[/QUOTE]
**** no. LeBron's better from outside of 16 feet and Kobe's better from 10-15 feet. LeBron's superiority covers more distance on the floor and is a bigger part of both player's game, so I don't know how you can reach the conclusion Kobe's easily better, if better at all.
Bottom line is this, you still haven't done jacksh!t to prove Kobe's [i]on a different level[/i] than 10-11 LeBron. How could you? Numbers just don't back it up. That's why I guess you have suddenly jumped on Kobe's 10-11 season because of the 51% shooting from 10-15 feet, even though you were all bent on not including this season at all at the beginning :oldlol:
[QUOTE=catch24]Mcgrady was hovering around the mid 70's for a while. I don't think he was a bad shooter at all. It's just more often than not, a guy shooting 7-8%+ better from the charity stripe is gonna be a better shooter.[/QUOTE]
Meh... Mcgrady hovered around 77 % for his career. He was never a ELITE all around shooter. He was a good shooter who had a great shot off the dribble.
Lebron has a career average of like 74 % and was a mediocre shooter all around for his career.
[QUOTE=Indian guy]There's no difference between how LeBron and Kobe are covered anymore. This isn't 2007.[/quote]
You've got to be shitting me. You don't think defenses prep differently for them? What? :roll:
[quote]**** no. LeBron's better from outside of 16 feet and Kobe's better from 10-15 feet. LeBron's superiority covers more distance on the floor and is a bigger part of both player's game, so I don't know how you can reach the conclusion Kobe's easily better, if better at all.
Bottom line is this, you still haven't done jacksh!t to prove Kobe's [i]on a different level[/i] than 10-11 LeBron. How could you? Numbers just don't back it up. That's why I guess you have suddenly jumped on Kobe's 10-11 season because of the 51% shooting from 10-15 feet, even though you were all bent on not including this season at all at the beginning :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
So you ignore midrange and FT shooting. OK, that's all I needed to know.
How don't the numbers back that up when you cover the main aspects of shooting (from the field), and Bryant comes up with a 7%+ advantage? I'm seriously confused. How can you deny the evidence when it's right in front of your face?
[QUOTE=game3524]Kobe athletic demise has been greatly exaggerated, he isn't the same athlete he was in 2005, but he is still an above average athlete.[/QUOTE]
Great point! Kobe's game wasn't based solely on athletic ability anyway. He was also regarded as the best all around player in the L until Lebron started improving. Kobe has one of the greatest midrange games ever and has the post game as well. Kobe had so many tools in the chest that if one comes out the box he's still better than 99% of the L at 33 years of age. Its funny to me that Dirk is the same age and NOBODY says Dirk is old. Sure Kobe isnt' quite as athletic. But he's still a top five player in the L.
[QUOTE=Indian guy]LeBron averages 1.5 to Kobe's 3.[/QUOTE]
SO over the course of the season Kobe takes double the amount of those shots...
Very significant
[QUOTE=catch24]You've got to be shitting me. You don't think defenses prep differently for them? What? :roll:[/quote]
In terms of space allowed for shooting jumpers, no, there is no difference in how they're defended 1-on-1 anymore.
[quote]So you ignore midrange and FT shooting.[/quote]
Uhh, didn't I say Kobe's better from 10-15 feet? Just like LeBron's better outside of 16 feet.
[quote]How don't the numbers back that up when you cover the main aspects of shooting (from the field)[/quote]
What happens between those 10-15 feet makes up for a far smaller aspect of Kobe and LeBron's game than what happens outside of 16 feet. Just look at the HUGE difference in shot attempts! LeBron's biggest edge as a jump shooter over Kobe is from the area Kobe RELIES most on in order to score.
[quote]How can you deny the evidence when it's right in front of your face?[/QUOTE]
The only evidence I'm interested in seeing is your original claim of Kobe being [i]on a different level[/i] as a shooter than LeBron today. Since all data indicates otherwise, can you at least admit you were way wrong?
clearly Indian Girl is trolling. Dont even know why Catch24 is responding still. He already destroyed both the Stans
Indian Guy = Sad
Kurasorwa = Sadder
Blind people these days.......
Lebron not getting defended on drives?
Just two stupid fckn trolls that want someone to see them.
[QUOTE=Indian guy]In terms of space allowed for shooting jumpers, no, there is no difference in how they're defended 1-on-1 anymore.
[/QUOTE]
You're dead wrong.:oldlol:
Kobe primarily shoots his midrange jumpers out of the post now and they're almost always contested fadeaways with a defender draped all over him. Lebron still gets his jumpshots from the triple threat position with a defender a couple of feet off him. What a joke.
You guys realize Indian Guy is just trolling? You guys lost for even debating with this kid.
[QUOTE=tpols]Lebron still gets his jumpshots from the triple threat position with a defender a couple of feet off him.[/QUOTE]
You're still stuck in 2007. Find me these clips of defenders backing off LeBron and gladly giving him the jumper. Go ahead.
[QUOTE=Indian guy]In terms of space allowed for shooting jumpers, no, there is no difference in how they're defended 1-on-1 anymore.
Uhh, didn't I say Kobe's better from 10-15 feet? Just like LeBron's better outside of 16 feet.[/quote]
Bullsh*t. There's much more air space for LeBron because of his ability to take it to the basket (of course he's regressed from seasons past, you of all people should know, but Kobe doesn't even have that luxury now-adays). If you watched him on a consistent-basis this past year, you'd know he was strictly a jumpshooter. Please grab a clue.
[quote]What happens between those 10-15 feet makes up for a far smaller aspect of Kobe and LeBron's game than what happens outside of 16 feet. Just look at the HUGE difference in shot attempts! LeBron's biggest edge as a jump shooter over Kobe is from the area Kobe RELIES most on in order to score.[/quote]
Then you factor in FT shooting and 3PT shooting. Since the disparity in FT %'s larger, Kobe wins by at least 7% (could be 6% -- I already forgot the percentages).
Do I believe Kobe's all-around shooting (this season) is clearly better than LeBron's? Absolutely. Did I over-exaggerate by saying Kobe's jumper was on another level than LeBron's? Yes. If we are talking about this season, you're right, I shouldn't have overstated.
[QUOTE=Indian guy]You're still stuck in 2007. Find me these clips of defenders backing off LeBron and gladly giving him the jumper. Go ahead.[/QUOTE]
When did I say defenders 'gladly give' him a jumper? I said they stay about 2 feet off of him when he has the ball in the triple threat.. It is by no means an open jumper, but it is more space than what Kobe gets. Kobe this past season didn't have the athleticism to get much separation off of his man.. the large majority of midrange shots he took came out of the post and they were fadeaways because he had a man right up against him. Lebron NEVER has to take fade aways because his man is always a foot or two off of him. Jesus Christ man, are you serious with this shit?
[QUOTE=tpols]When did I say defenders 'gladly give' him a jumper? I said they stay about 2 feet off of him when he has the ball in the triple threat.. It is by no means an open jumper, but it is more space than what Kobe gets. Kobe this past season didn't have the athleticism to get much separation off of his man.. the large majority of midrange shots he took came out of the post and they were fadeaways because he had a man right up against him. Lebron NEVER has to take fade aways because his man is always a foot or two off of him. Jesus Christ man, are you serious with this shit?[/QUOTE]
It's crazy. Honestly, I'm just trying to figure out why he (and other crazy ass people on this forum) believe the shit they do.
TMac past his prime, big deal it means nothing.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX8CCMKVulQ&feature=fvst[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhT5tZucGsQ[/url]
Kobe is more determined though, obviously.
Nice dunk either way, still skeptical how a full season will take its toll.
[QUOTE=catch24]Bullsh*t. There's much more air space for LeBron because of his ability to take it to the basket[/quote]
This is just not true anymore. LeBron's no more capable of breaking a defense down in the half-court today than Kobe is. He's a much more effective finisher ONCE he gets in there because of superior leaping ability and size, but as a threat to penetrate? They're essentially the same. Thus nobody backing off of LeBron anymore, that and the fact that he's simply a much better shooter today than he used to be.
[quote]Then you factor in FT shooting and 3PT shooting. Since the disparity in FT %'s larger, Kobe wins by at least 7% (could be 6% -- I already forgot the percentages).[/quote]
You're factoring in FT% way too much, considering 07-11 Kobe and 10-11 LeBron's numbers are mostly a wash from 10-23 feet. There are plenty of scorers out there who shot a TON better than 10-11 Kobe from the FT line - Nowitzki, Billups, Durant, Ray Allen, Nash, CP3 - do you consider them [i]on a different level than Kobe[/i] as shooters too?
And again, LeBron enjoys a humongous 8%+ edge from the area Kobe RELIES most on in order to score. That makes up for the FT edge Kobe has.
[quote]If we are talking about this season, you're right, I shouldn't have overstated.[/QUOTE]
Not just this season, but any season of Kobe's career compared to 10-11 LeBron. Safe to assume the numbers charted on hoopdata are the best of Kobe's career, and considering 10-11 LeBron compares very well against them, your original comment couldn't have been more off.
[QUOTE=Indian guy] LeBron's no more capable of breaking a defense down in the half-court today than Kobe is. [/QUOTE]
:roll:
Aigt I'm out.. I've seen it all now.
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3LDFhZYNQw"]Another angle[/URL]
[QUOTE=Indian guy]This is just not true anymore. LeBron's no more capable of breaking a defense down in the half-court today than Kobe is. He's a much more effective finisher ONCE he gets in there because of superior leaping ability and size, but as a threat to penetrate? They're essentially the same. Thus nobody backing off of LeBron anymore, that and the fact that he's simply a much better shooter today than he used to be.[/quote]
You do realize Kobe is 32 and LeBron is 26, right? You do understand that Kobe has way more mileage than LeBron does, right?
I may joke on here and other places..but this crap is inexcusable. You are flat out nuts to really think LeBron is no more capable of breaking down a defense in the half court.
[quote]You're factoring in FT% way too much, considering 07-11 Kobe and 10-11 LeBron's numbers are mostly a wash from 10-23 feet. There are plenty of scorers out there who shot a TON better than 10-11 Kobe from the FT line - Nowitzki, Billups, Durant, Ray Allen, Nash, CP3 - do you consider them [i]on a different level than Kobe[/i] as shooters too?[/quote]
No I'm not. They cancel each other out from 10-15/16-23FT, that leaves us with 3PT and Freethrow shooting. LeBron shoots 1% better from 3; Kobe shoots 7% better from the line. As I said, about a 6% difference.
I consider Durant, Dirk, Allen, Nash and CP3 all better shooters. Better from midrange and long range is a different story. I've maintained that Kobe is a better all-around shooter than LeBron this entire time.
I'm not gonna continue to debate something that's obvious. Kobe is clearly a better shooter than LeBron. End of story.
damn, kobester looking young in that clip :applause:
lot of pages in this thread, assuming MJ fans are mad their boy couldn't do 360s (there is like one from the '85 dunk contest and it's barely a 180).
[QUOTE=Fatal9]damn, kobester looking young in that clip :applause:
lot of pages in this thread, assuming MJ fans are mad their boy couldn't do 360s (there is like one from the '85 dunk contest and it's barely a 180).[/QUOTE]
Check out Indian Guy's posts and let me know what you think, lol.
Come on! A wide open 360, are standards becoming that low for Kobe now?
It was nice to see him dunk it, but the one over Okafor still impressed me more.
[QUOTE=catch24]You do realize Kobe is 32 and LeBron is 26, right?[/quote]
You also realize LeBron weighs 270+ pounds to Kobe's 210, right?
[quote]I consider Durant, Dirk, Allen, Nash and CP3 all better shooters.[/quote]
But do you consider them on an entirely different level? A case where it's not even close? Taking into account 10-15 FT/16-23 FT/3PT%/FT%, Durant is +5% on Kobe, CP3 +9%, Nash +20%, Ray Allen +22%, Dirk +25%. Would you say there's a FAR bigger difference between these players than there is between Kobe and LeBron?
[quote]Kobe is clearly a better shooter than LeBron.[/QUOTE]
Definitely not as clear as Durant, Dirk, Ray, Nash and CP3 being FAAAAAR better shooters than Kobe. And even if Kobe is better than LeBron, numbers clearly suggest it's very CLOSE and you were completely talking out of your ass to suggest Kobe was [i]on a different level[/i].