96-98 Jordan vs 08-10 Kobe

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]
Also, anyone who's suggesting that '08-'10 Kobe had a larger defensive impact on games than Jordan needs to get their head examined. No way. Kobe has perhaps 2-3 years IN HIS CAREER where his defensive impact was on par with even 1998 Jordan, and none of those seasons are after 2005. Jordan's team/help defense was WORLDS beyond Kobe's and his man D was still comparable/superior, [B][U]and team/help D is the largest component of overall defensive impact.[/U][/B]

[COLOR="White"]in before eliteballer's Doc Rivers' quote[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
That is not true for wing players. Team/help D is more important to big men than they are to wing players. I'd much rather have my wing players being great on-ball/man defenders than great help defenders. It's the bigs job to help on defense and block shots. It's the wings job to contest jump shots and force the offensive player into tough shots. Big men are suppose to anchor your defense and are better at it than wing players are.

Jordan was not as great of a defender in his second 3-peat as he was in his first.

[QUOTE=eliteballer]You're telling me 07 Kobe, with ten 50 point games and 37 PPG post All-Star break average once he got his legs conditioned isnt as good as 96 Jordan? Right:oldlol:
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I'm telling you that 2007 Kobe is not better than a guy who averaged 30+/6/5/2+/50% FG/58% TS on a [b]championship level team[/b] playing within a team concept, and who won a virtually unanimous MVP, ASG MVP, and Finals MVP en route to an NBA record 72 wins and a championship.

What could Jordan have averaged with the reins off like Kobe on a garbage team? At least 34 ppg, even at that age. And no one who isn't wearing purple and gold pajamas is betting against 1996 Jordan versus 2007 Kobe in any playoff series, I'll tell you that much. :oldlol:

An ancient, [b]35 year old Jordan[/b] led his Bulls who were missing Pippen for HALF THE SEASON to a better record than Kobe has ever led any of his more talented (compared to the '98 Bulls) Lakers teams to save for one year (2009). Imagine what a 33 year old 1996 MJ could have done? 66 wins with Pippen out for half the year isn't out of the question. Kobe can't even crack 60 wins with a stacked squad 3 of the last 4 seasons. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=ThaSwagg3r]That is not true for wing players. Team/help D is more important to big men than they are to wing players. I'd much rather have my wing players being great on-ball/man defenders than great help defenders. It's the bigs job to help on defense and block shots. It's the wings job to contest jump shots and force the offensive player into tough shots. Big men are suppose to anchor your defense and are better at it than wing players are. [/quote]

This is completely false. Great individual defense will save you PERHAPS 4-5 points per game. Great team/help defense can save you many more points per game as you disrupt post-ups, drives by other players etc. Plus it's not like MJ was helping out to the exclusion of his man D - he did both at a very high level. Watch the 1998 ECF and tell me that Kobe has EVER had that kind of defensive impact on games in any season post-2005. It's up on youtube - do yourself a favor and watch it. MJ was shutting down Jalen Rose, blanking the lightning-quick Travis Best when MJ was switched on him because he was killing Chicago's guards, breaking up 3-on-1 fastbreaks singlehandedly, making numerous deflections, making game-saving blocks with 30 seconds left etc. Kobe has never been a force on D like MJ was, even in 1998.

[quote]Jordan was not as great of a defender in his second 3-peat as he was in his first.[/QUOTE]

That's obvious. But his overall defensive impact was still clearly superior to '08-'10 Kobe's.

[QUOTE=eliteballer]
No sheer coincidence how Jordan's effectiveness dropped as soon as the real 3 point line was reinstituted...[/QUOTE]
Jordan shot 35% from the "real" 3 point line in 1993 before his 1st retirement.

Would Kobe's ppg numbers drop if the "real" perimeter defensive rules were reinstitued?

Do you realize how dumb you sound?

[QUOTE=eliteballer]You're telling me 07 Kobe, with ten 50 point games and 37 PPG post All-Star break average once he got his legs conditioned isnt as good as 96 Jordan? Right:oldlol:

No sheer coincidence how Jordan's effectiveness dropped as soon as the real 3 point line was reinstituted...[/QUOTE]


Now I know 100% that you're under 18. If you knew any better you'd know that Jordan had a ripped tendon in his shooting hand from a golf game that effected his efficiency drastically. Look at his FT% for crying out loud.

Kobe didn't even lead his team in Win Shares in 2009 and 2010 and in 2010 didn't even lead in PER.

[QUOTE=eliteballer][B]You're telling me 07 Kobe, with ten 50 point games and 37 PPG post All-Star break average once he got his legs conditioned isnt as good as 96 Jordan?[/B] Right:oldlol:
[/QUOTE]

no he is not.[B] Kobe is all time great. So was drexler & Dominique & Shaq[/B]. Both can average what Kobe did under the relaxed defensive rules he got 37ppg under. Dominique was freakish scorer, drexler was incredible slasher & had a great pull up jumper. So was Bernard King who could pull up from anywhere inside 3 pt line. All can do what kobe can.

If Kobe ave 37ppg post all-star break. Prime Shaq or Young Shaq can ave 43ppg all season under '07 rules.

MJ under '07 rules will ave 43ppg easily for whole season. & post prime '96-'98 MJ will ave 38-40ppg easily under 2007 rules.

But can Kobe do this [U]under extremely physical Eastern Conference under defensively tough '90s NBA Rule[/U]s.
[B]
1996: NBA MVP + NBA Finals MVP + Scoring Leader + 72 wins season
1997: Runner up MVP + Finals MVP+Scoring Leader + almost 70 wins
1998: NBA MVP + NBA Finals MVP + Scoring Leader [/B]

[B][SIZE="3"]NO[/SIZE][/B]

the majority of the posters on this forum must be young as hell for this to even be asked...:oldlol: :oldlol:, whan did y'all start watching basketball, 03? LOL

[QUOTE=PowerGlove]You cant tell me that 2010 Kobe lighting up the suns didnt remind you of MJ.[/QUOTE]

Kobe getting embarrassed by OKC and needing Gasol to carry him did not remind me of MJ.

Kobe blowing major n*** against Boston especially at home, in the 4 games they won and in G7 and needing Gasol again to carry him did not remind me at all of MJ.

[B]96-98 MJ is 2 or more Tiers above Peak Bryant.[/B]

[QUOTE=32Dayz]...[/QUOTE]

Welcome back. :cheers:

[QUOTE=Papaya Petee]:roll: :roll: 96-98 Jordan is as good as Prime Kobe.

96- 30\7\4 50%
97- 30\6\4 48.5%
98- 29\6\4 47%[/QUOTE]
In the Playoffs
'96 - .459%
'97 - .456%
'98 - .462%

Kobe's %, except Kobe took much more 3s, and averaged more assists at over 5.5 apg.

[B]Playoff PER [/B]
96-98 Jordan = 27
08-10 Kobe = 25

[B]Awards[/B]
Jordan = 2MVP + 3FMVP
Kobe = 1MVP + 1FMVP

+ Jordan won against better teams and played before the hand check rules changed which made it dramatically easier for guards to shoot efficiently while scoring on high volume these are huge differences which take the comparison from semi-reasonable to a complete joke.

Lets compare using only Pre-HC years.

[B]Playoff PER [/B]
Jordan = 27
Kobe = 22

Either way its not close.
[B]96-98 Jordan >> 08-10 Kobe[/B]

Kobe doesn't have the control of the game that Jordan did and I don't need numbers to be able to see that.

You just don't get the sense with Kobe that the Lakers are unbeatable. That some how, some way, Kobe can "will" them to victory, the way Jordan could with the Bulls (even the older Jordan).

Kobe's basketball I.Q. still is not as high as Jordan's either.

The Lakers are a team that completely falls apart when they lose and there's always the "we need a new All-Star for Kobe to play with" thing that comes up every 3-4 years.

I just never get that sense with a Kobe Bryant team that you'll have to kill the guy to beat the Lakers 4 times in a playoff series. When the Lakers implode, they also almost always seem to do so in the most embarrassing fashion, which IMO reflects on Kobe their leader.

[QUOTE=Soundwave]Kobe doesn't have the control of the game that Jordan did and I don't need numbers to be able to see that.

You just don't get the sense with Kobe that the Lakers are unbeatable. That some how, some way, Kobe can "will" them to victory, the way Jordan could with the Bulls (even the older Jordan).

Kobe's basketball I.Q. still is not as high as Jordan's either.

The Lakers are a team that completely falls apart when they lose and there's always the "we need a new All-Star for Kobe to play with" thing that comes up every 3-4 years.[/QUOTE]

Exactly... Jordan had a brilliant BBIQ while Kobe has a poor one.

Kobe rarely seems to be able to just relax and play in rhythm he is either in score mode or defer mode.
Jordan meanwhile would always be a few steps ahead and would quickly either defer, set screens and play off the ball or immediately attack the basket and make a move for himself.

Jordan also never had to be carried through whole series like Bryant did especially in 2010.
Remember Gasol having to carry LA against OKC and severely outplaying Bryant at the staples center in the Finals and in G7?

Bryant is a great player who has honed his game over the years but certain things like BBIQ you are just born with... Kobe to me has always seemed to have a 1V1 style of play not really a style that meshes perfectly in a team game and thats why he has always been subpar at knowing when to defer or involve his teammates.

He will always be a legend and Top 15 or so player All-Time.

God damn it let this thread die...... mods lock it pls. 32 days is back full retard. :hammerhead:

[QUOTE=32Dayz]Exactly... Jordan had a brilliant BBIQ while Kobe has a poor one.

Kobe rarely seems to be able to just relax and play in rhythm he is either in score mode or defer mode.
Jordan meanwhile would always be a few steps ahead and would quickly either defer, set screens and play off the ball or immediately attack the basket and make a move for himself.

Jordan also never had to be carried through whole series like Bryant did especially in 2010.
Remember Gasol having to carry LA against OKC and severely outplaying Bryant at the staples center in the Finals and in G7?

Bryant is a great player who has honed his game over the years but certain things like BBIQ you are just born with... Kobe to me has always seemed to have a 1V1 style of play not really a style that meshes perfectly in a team game and thats why he has always been subpar at knowing when to defer or involve his teammates.

He will always be a legend and Top 15 or so player All-Time.[/QUOTE]
Didn't Pippen carry Jordan when he shot 5-19?

[QUOTE=zay_24]lol @ 98 jordan taking 23 shots a game

lol @ 98 jordan taking 9 freethrows a game

disgust @ 98 jordan shooting 23% from the 3 point line :facepalm

smh @ 78% from the freethrow

scust @ this old ass negga only having 3 apg that year. My negga you old af, pass the ball more with yo 23% shootin asss[/QUOTE]


You obvious didn't know that Jordan was 35 years old that year, had a torn ligament in his index finger on his shooting hand, a busted knuckle on his shooting hand, and had to carry the Bulls without Scottie Pippen for the first 35 games in 1998....Hence the lower than normal FT shooting and FG shooting......FUNNY how it took all that to bring Jordan down to Kobe's level of efficiency huh??? :hammerhead:

32 dayz = bwink23 and an IP address check will confirm that:facepalm

[QUOTE=game3524]No, I understand basketball. You guys just want to turn Jordan into some mythical figure. Both Bryant and Jordan have high b-ball IQ, the difference is Jordan was a much better athlete then Bryant, which allowed him to get higher percentage shots.[/QUOTE]


Athleticism has nothing to do with Kobe's shot selection...:rolleyes:

[QUOTE=eliteballer]You're telling me 07 Kobe, with ten 50 point games and 37 PPG post All-Star break average once he got his legs conditioned isnt as good as 96 Jordan? Right:oldlol:

No sheer coincidence how Jordan's effectiveness dropped as soon as the real 3 point line was reinstituted...[/QUOTE]



Kobe post all-star break in 2007....

36.7ppg on 45.3%FG (27.4 FG's per game), 32.3% 3FG at 5.9 attempts per game....86.8%FT at 11.2 FTA per game....:wtf:


If that's not VOLUME SCORING, i don't know what is.....:facepalm

LOL at being a jumpshooter and getting 11.2 FTA per game...ARE YOU KIDDING?? SOFTEST ERA in NBA history for perimeter players, what a joke.


POST ALL-STAR BREAK = 27 games < 82..FOR THE RECORD

[QUOTE=LakersReign]32 dayz = bwink23 and an IP address check will confirm that:facepalm[/QUOTE]



:facepalm ....NO, i am not that guy....sorry to burst your bubble dumb ass...:no:

T-t-t-t-t-riple POST! :roll:
Cmon guys with this debate , it

You should get it by now, Kobe haters have nothing better to do:facepalm

[QUOTE=LakersReign]You should get it by now, Kobe haters have nothing better to do:facepalm[/QUOTE]


Did you ever notice no one even talks to you here, LOL@!! :roll:

[QUOTE=Duncan21formvp]Kobe didn't even lead his team in Win Shares in 2009 and 2010 and in 2010 didn't even lead in PER.[/QUOTE]
:roll:

Prime MJ>>>>prime Kobe







/ thread

[QUOTE=TheMan]Prime MJ>>>>prime Kobe







/ thread[/QUOTE]


"Kobe is the best allaround player I ever coached" - Phil Jackson 2001

now we can all move along...

32 days here's a video for you
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgHITc1OL-c"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgHITc1OL-c[/URL]

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]"Kobe is the best allaround player I ever coached" - Phil Jackson 2001

now we can all move along...[/QUOTE]
All the stats say eitherwise and your hero says MJ is the best ever...
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4Epu-7ITO4&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/url]

[IMG]http://kicksaddict.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/kobe-in-mj-jersey.jpg[/IMG]

/thread

[QUOTE=TheMan]All the stats say eitherwise and your hero says MJ is the best ever...
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4Epu-7ITO4&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/url]

[IMG]http://kicksaddict.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/kobe-in-mj-jersey.jpg[/IMG]

/thread[/QUOTE]


stats say Kevin Love>Hakeem..what's your point?

I'm going off of watching both players whole careers and agreeing with Coach Phil...


get off of stats N@tz

Call me when MJ sports a KB jersey:lol

[QUOTE=TheMan]Call me when MJ sports a KB jersey:lol[/QUOTE]


he won't...but he got UMAD at Zeller for wearing Kobe 5's....:roll:

wich is even worse....he was almost as shook as when Kobe dropped 40 on him in 1half and made him cry on the bench

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]stats say Kevin Love>Hakeem..what's your point?

I'm going off of watching both players whole careers and agreeing with Coach Phil...


get off of stats N@tz[/QUOTE]
Coach Phil says a lot of shit to motivate, if you're a Lakers fan, you know this.

MJ has every stat over KB except 3pt shooting, MVPs, Finals MVPs, playoff scoring avg etc...again, even Kobe says MJ is tha greatest eva, you gonna refute that???:roll:







/thread

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]stats say Kevin Love>Hakeem..what's your point?

[/QUOTE]

Actually they don't.

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]he won't...but he got UMAD at Zeller for wearing Kobe 5's....:roll:

wich is even worse....he was almost as shook as when Kobe dropped 40 on him in 1half and made him cry on the bench[/QUOTE]
An over the hill MJ:facepalm

why does LBJ shit all over Kobe? He over the hill?

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]"Kobe is the best allaround player I ever coached" - Phil Jackson 2001

now we can all move along...[/QUOTE]

LOL at Phil doing his best to coax Kobe into playing more team ball. He's the best all around player when he coached MJ and Pippen? That's like saying Jermaine was the most talented of all the Jacksons. :oldlol:

Let's examine Pippen, MJ, and Kobe...

[B][U]Offense[/U][/B]
1) ensures continuity and flow of the team's offense.
2) keeps teammates involved and focused
3) knows when to take over

[B][U]Defense[/U][/B]
1) Man to man defense
2) Team defense

[B][U]Minor categories[/U][/B]
Scoring
Rebounding
Passing
Blocks
Steals
Clutch (plays -- involves any play that can win the game)
Leadership

Is there more than one category where Kobe holds the top spot? Is there even ONE category that Kobe clearly owns?

[QUOTE=guy]Actually they don't.[/QUOTE]
Don't tell him that, he doesn't believe in stats.:lol

so kevin love is greater than hakeem:oldlol:because he says so

[QUOTE=TheMan]Coach Phil says a lot of shit to motivate, if you're a Lakers fan, you know this.

MJ has every stat over KB except 3pt shooting, MVPs, Finals MVPs, playoff scoring avg etc...again, even Kobe says MJ is tha greatest eva, you gonna refute that???:roll:







/thread[/QUOTE]


and Bill Russell has everything over MJ except Ballhogging, FMVP (named after him) Championships, defensive GOAT, MVP's etc.....so why don't many people consider Russell better?...or even top 3?

Just because MJ won more biased media awards don't make him better....(Look at the above example)

again...Phil Jackson said Kobe is the best allaround player....


nuff said.















next

[QUOTE=TheMan]An over the hill MJ:facepalm

why does LBJ shit all over Kobe? He over the hill?[/QUOTE]


Kobe merked MJ at 18 - 19 years old too....:confusedshrug:

Lebron?....why would you bring a 2nd tier player into this convo?...

that's like asking why Drexler or Richmond beat Jordan on a few regular season games.....and besides....Kobe barely played the first 3 - 4 games vs Lebron.:confusedshrug:

again...keep this between top players who won.

You're funny, keep posting!:lol