Dirk is above KG in the all-time list

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Kobe

18- 12.5
19- 12.8
20- 19.1
21- 19.3
22- 25.0


Dirk

18
19
20
21
22- 22.3


:bowdown: to Dirk for avoiding the NBA playoffs until he was 22 :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

even if we start removing years from kobe....he still only has a 2 ppg edge on dirk on noticeably worse overall efficiency. kobe is take 2 to 3 more shots per game to get those points. which most likely results in 4 to 5 more possessions used when you account for kobe's higher turnover rate and worse ft shooting.

lol at kobe being in a different league. 2 ppg better on worse efficiency....and that is if we just chop off 4 years.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]their overall efficiency is not identical. dirk is 4% higher on ts and has a clear edge in fg%, 3pt%, and ft%[/quote]

At their peak, not careers. I was going off of Tpols list.

Efficiency =/= from the field.

[quote]and Dirk has averaged more ppg in the playoffs.[/quote]

Again though - Kobe has played in more playoff games (going deeper, evidence to his 7 Finals trips). That's something you gotta take into consideration.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]even if we start removing years from kobe....he still only has a 2 ppg edge on dirk on noticeably worse overall efficiency. kobe is take 2 to 3 more shots per game to get those points. which most likely results in 4 to 5 more possessions used when you account for kobe's higher turnover rate and worse ft shooting.

[B]lol at kobe being in a different league. [/B] 2 ppg better on worse efficiency....and that is if we just chop off 4 years.[/QUOTE]

I guess this is what I was debating about. I never said that Dirk was a better scorer than Kobe. I just think it's funny that people think that 2 points on 3 more shots makes it so we can't even debate about it. This is an NBA forum. That's kinda the point.

(And by debate, I mean discuss it like adults like most of us are doing... not just throw out "Dork Nowtizki can't carry his jock strapz! LOL :roll: :roll: :roll: " )

[QUOTE=Bigsmoke]lol just last year, u were shitting Dirk on every thread like u wasn't a Mavs fan.[/QUOTE]
Dude is a damn JOKE.

[QUOTE=catch24]At their peak, not careers. I was going off of Tpols list.

Efficiency =/= from the field.



Again though - Kobe has played in more playoff games (going deeper, evidence to his 7 Finals trips). That's something you gotta take into consideration.[/QUOTE]

kobe has also played with far better teams. can't ignore that. i can't imagine what dirk's efficiency would have looked like playing on loaded teams throughout his career. dirk might have shot 55% next to shaq. goes both ways.

and again, dirk is more efficient from the field. he beats kobe in fg% and efg%....marginally of course....but no less marginal than kobe scoring 2 more ppg in those 10 prime years on 2 to 3 more shots per game.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]even if we start removing years from kobe....he still only has a 2 ppg edge on dirk on noticeably worse overall efficiency. kobe is take 2 to 3 more shots per game to get those points. which most likely results in 4 to 5 more possessions used when you account for kobe's higher turnover rate and worse ft shooting.

lol at kobe being in a different league. 2 ppg better on worse efficiency....and that is if we just chop off 4 years.[/QUOTE]

Not all "years" are created equal. Kobe's 3 best years includes 60 games 2 rings and a trip to the Finals. Dirk's 3 best years include 21 games and two 1st round exits. Its silly to equate the two.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

STRAIGHT ETHER[/B]

:cheers:[/QUOTE]
Kobe has 7 different post-seasons with higher averages than Dork's best, more 40+ point games, more 30+ point games, and does better in his extended runs against better defenses.

Then he completely destroys him in the RS.

40+ point games
Kobe--110
Dork--20

50+ point games
Kobe--25
Dork--2

60+ point games
Kobe--5
Dork--0

Straight ether.

Kobe is on a different level.

:oldlol:

Jacks3, can you do me a favor and keep posting the same post over and over. I didn't see it the first time. Nor did I respond do it.

U mad that Kobe shits all over Dork as a scorer. :pimp:

According to people in this thread (and according to last years playoffs)

Durant, Dirk, Rose, Howard (lol), Melo, Wade, Westbrook and LeBron are all better scorers than Kobe.

And since Durant, Dirk, Rose, Wade, Westbrook and LeBron went further in the playoffs, the gap is even wider since they did it over more games.

Sad to see how much Kobe has fallen off.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Not all "years" are created equal. Kobe's 3 best years includes 60 games 2 rings and a trip to the Finals. Dirk's 3 best years include 21 games and two 1st round exits. Its silly to equate the two.[/QUOTE]

We took Kobe's 10 best years in the playoffs vs Dirk's 10 best.

And you get roughly Kobe scoring 2 more ppg on worse overall efficiency.

Dirk's offensive rating absolutely blows Kobe's out of the water as well. Dirk has 6 playoff runs over 119. Kobe has 0. Kobe's highest is 117. Dirk's highest is 130 (124 on an extended run)......

Another offensive measure that favors Dirk....shocking.

Dirk also destroys kobe in offensive win shares overall and peak. Dirk's peak was 3.8 in 06 in 23 games. Kobes was 3.3 in 09 in 23 games.

Another offensive measure that favors Dirk....shocking.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]We took Kobe's 10 best years in the playoffs vs Dirk's 10 best.

And you get roughly Kobe scoring 2 more ppg on worse overall efficiency.

Dirk's offensive rating absolutely blows Kobe's out of the water as well. Dirk has 6 playoff runs over 119. Kobe has 0. Kobe's highest is 117. Dirk's highest is 130 (124 on an extended run)......

Another offensive measure that favors Dirk....shocking.[/QUOTE]

But..But...... Kobe scored 40 points on a million shots against a bad team in a (probably) losing effort in the regular season! He's way better at getting points!

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]kobe has also played with far better teams. can't ignore that. i can't imagine what dirk's efficiency would have looked like playing on loaded teams throughout his career. dirk might have shot 55% next to shaq. goes both ways.[/quote]

lol

Dirk has played with several contenders..and multiple all-stars too. Finley, Nash? That's not a prime Shaq, but those guys were pretty fukkin solid. 7 Finals trips, multiple semi and conference finals, 4,000+ more minutes on his belt...of course Kobe has a lower PPG output. Dirk's numbers will likely go down before he retires as well.

[quote]and again, dirk is more efficient from the field. he beats kobe in fg% and efg%....marginally of course....[/quote]

From the field, as you said, it was marginal, but Kobe's PPG was sometimes 3-4+ pts higher. Kobe was the better volume scorer at his peak.

imo, Dirk is better now though.

[QUOTE=FF1]But..But...... Kobe scored 40 points on a million shots against a bad team in a (probably) losing effort in the regular season! He's way better at getting points![/QUOTE]

I'm not talking about the regular season...i'm talking about the playoffs...but the point still stands.

If Kobe has more 40 point playoff games and the ppg averages are so close...that means he has more awful games. Its the law of averages. Clearly a concept lost on the stans here.

We've already chopped 4 years off Kobe's career for no good reason other than he just wasn't very good yet. Funny, I wonder if they will also negate all the points Kobe scored those years as Kobe climbs up the all time points list? I doubt it.

[QUOTE=FF1]

Sad to see how much Kobe has fallen off.[/QUOTE]
Sad to see how much Kobe shits all over Dirk, yes.

40+ point games
Kobe--110
Dork--20

50+ point games
Kobe--25
Dork--2

60+ point games
Kobe--5
Dork--0

Damn Dork. It's not even close. :oldlol:

Oh. Some new statistics. Thanks Jacks3!

Just curious.. how many shots did Kobe take to get those? Did the Lakers win those games?

[QUOTE=FF1] He's way better at getting points![/QUOTE]
True.

[QUOTE=catch24]lol

Dirk has played with several contenders..and multiple all-stars too. Finley, Nash? That's not a prime Shaq, but those guys were pretty fukkin solid. 7 Finals trips, multiple semi and conference finals, 4,000+ more minutes on his belt...of course Kobe has a lower PPG output. Dirk's numbers will likely go down before he retires as well.



From the field, as you said, it was marginal, but Kobe's PPG was sometimes 3-4+ pts higher. Kobe was the better volume scorer at his peak.

imo, Dirk is better now though.[/QUOTE]


LOL....Dirk's teams have not approached Kobe's in terms of strength. Sorry....Kobe has had the clear cut edge in team strength and coaching. Not even remotely debatable. Sad that anyone could think otherwise.

I never said Dirk played with scrubs. I said he didn't play on teams as good as the Lakers....just a fact.

You do know that Kobe and Dirk are pretty much the same age...right?

And we've been over this. Kobe's 10 best years.....he's only 2ppg ahead of Dirk. Thats it. On worse efficiency overall. So basically....all that superior scoring you speak of netted kobe 2 more points per game while he took 2 to 3 more shots to get there. which translates to 4 or 5 more possessions used.

sorry, in no way is kobe in a different league than dirk as a playoff scorer by any standard or measure.

This message is hidden because Jacks3 is on your ignore list.

Pretty sad if that "game" was fun for him. I can only imagine what he's like IRL.

Obviously Kobe has shown that he can be a really incredible scorer. He has also shown that he sometimes shoots way too many shots to get those points. No one considers Jerry Stackhouse to be an elite scorer, even though he showed he can score a ton of points when he has the go-ahead to shoot all day. All I'm saying is that there is more to look at than raw PPG.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]We took Kobe's 10 best years in the playoffs vs Dirk's 10 best.

And you get roughly Kobe scoring 2 more ppg on worse overall efficiency.

Dirk's offensive rating absolutely blows Kobe's out of the water as well. Dirk has 6 playoff runs over 119. Kobe has 0. Kobe's highest is 117. Dirk's highest is 130 (124 on an extended run)......

Another offensive measure that favors Dirk....shocking.[/QUOTE]

Your comparison is already a failure within the 1st sentence. You already know that. Kobe's top ten playoff seasons are going to include 7 trips to the Finals and the majority of them during the defensive era of basketball. How insane of a player would Kobe have to be to be more efficient than Dirk through 4 playoff series during that era compared to Dirk in one series against the 07 Warriors? You think that's a meaningful comparison?

Peak:
Kobe--35.4 PPG/56% TS
Dork--26.6 PPG/59% TS

2nd-best Peak
Kobe--32 PPG/58% TS
Dork-- 26 PPG/58% TS

30+ PPG seasons
Kobe--3
Dork--[B]0[/B]

28+ PPG seasons
Kobe--6
Dork--[B]0[/B]

40+ point games
Kobe--110
Dork--20 (:oldlol: )

50+ point games
Kobe--25
Dork--2 (:oldlol: )

60+ point games
Kobe--5
Dork--0 :oldlol:

Damn. Dork getting shitted on. :roll:

Best part about this is that Kobe's numbers are going to go down quicker than Dirk's, so even with fans inexplicably forgetting Kobe's first 4 years, Kobe's averages will soon be lower than Dirk's anyway. "hey let's throw out Kobe's old years too, that's not fair that Dirk's game is able to stay consistant for so long!!!"

[QUOTE=FF1]]

Obviously Kobe has shown that he can be a really incredible scorer. He has also shown that he sometimes shoots way too many shots to get those points. No one considers Jerry Stackhouse to be an elite scorer, even though he showed he can score a ton of points when he has the go-ahead to shoot all day. All I'm saying is that there is more to look at than raw PPG.[/QUOTE]
You're a fukking moron comparing Kobe to Stackhouse. Kobe's volume destroys Dork's and you're telling that Dork is comparable because he has a 2-3% TS edge. LMAO @ the weak ass excuses.

[QUOTE=FF1]

Just curious.. how many shots did Kobe take to get those? Did the Lakers win those games?[/QUOTE]
57-58% TS average over his 40+,50+ point games.

Lakers have a 70+% winning percentage.

Ether. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Your comparison is already a failure within the 1st sentence. You already know that. Kobe's top ten playoff seasons are going to include 7 trips to the Finals and the majority of them during the defensive era of basketball. How insane of a player would Kobe have to be to be more efficient than Dirk through 4 playoff series during that era compared to Dirk in one series against the 07 Warriors? You think that's a meaningful comparison?[/QUOTE]

What?

I think playing with a top 8 player of all time in Shaq to take the pressure off more than makes up for the difference in defense quality.

So lets get this straight:

1. You want me to remove 4 years of Kobe's career (that equates to 29% by the way)

2. You want me to ignore that Kobe played on the most stacked teams by far of this era.

3. You want me to ignore that Dirk had to carry his teams more than Kobe did and played with worse teammates and far worse coaching.

4. You want me to heavily factor in everything that favors Kobe.

Sound about right?

And the best part is... Kobe will always be the better player with the better career. It's not even close. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[QUOTE=FF1]Best part about this is that Kobe's numbers are going to go down quicker than Dirk's, so even with fans inexplicably forgetting Kobe's first 4 years, Kobe's averages will soon be lower than Dirk's anyway. "hey let's throw out Kobe's old years too, that's not fair that Dirk's game is able to stay consistant for so long!!!"[/QUOTE]

LOL

Kobe's numbers are already lower

Dirk beats him in playoff ppg and beats him in every scoring stat there is. fg%, 3pt%, ft%, ts%, offensive rating (by a huge margin), offensive win shares....

Dirk beats him everything. Already.

[QUOTE=Jacks3]And the best part is... Kobe will always be the better player with the better career. It's not even close. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

And the white flag has been waived. Now its about the better player. Good work Kobe stans. You've lost another battle.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]We took Kobe's 10 best years in the playoffs vs Dirk's 10 best.

And you get roughly Kobe scoring 2 more ppg on worse overall efficiency.

Dirk's offensive rating absolutely blows Kobe's out of the water as well. Dirk has 6 playoff runs over 119. Kobe has 0. Kobe's highest is 117. Dirk's highest is 130 (124 on an extended run)......

Another offensive measure that favors Dirk....shocking.

Dirk also destroys kobe in offensive win shares overall and peak. Dirk's peak was 3.8 in 06 in 23 games. Kobes was 3.3 in 09 in 23 games.

Another offensive measure that favors Dirk....shocking.[/QUOTE]

According to offensive rating Steve Kerr is the GOAT, so I wouldn't use that for your argument

[QUOTE=Jacks3]Peak:
Kobe--35.4 PPG/56% TS
Dork--26.6 PPG/59% TS

2nd-best Peak
Kobe--32 PPG/58% TS
Dork-- 26 PPG/58% TS

30+ PPG seasons
Kobe--3
Dork--[B]0[/B]

28+ PPG seasons
Kobe--6
Dork--[B]0[/B]

40+ point games
Kobe--110
Dork--20 (:oldlol: )

50+ point games
Kobe--25
Dork--2 (:oldlol: )

60+ point games
Kobe--5
Dork--0 :oldlol:

Damn. Dork getting shitted on. :roll:[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that's really losing the battle. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[QUOTE=RRR3]According to offensive rating Steve Kerr is the GOAT, so I wouldn't use that for your argument[/QUOTE]

context please. context.

average opponent defensive rating:

kobe 102.6
dirk 103.9

yes...lets get all worked up over that marginal difference and completely ignore how much better kobe's teams were.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]context please. context.[/QUOTE]
**** context. That alone is enough for me write off Offensive rating as bullshit.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]LOL....Dirk's teams have not approached Kobe's in terms of strength. Sorry....Kobe has had the clear cut edge in team strength and coaching. Not even remotely debatable. Sad that anyone could think otherwise.[/quote]

I never said they did. Kobe has had better teams, without question. The point I was trying to make was that Dirk [I]also[/I] had quality help..and there were more than a few years where his teams were considered contenders.

[quote]You do know that Kobe and Dirk are pretty much the same age...right?[/quote]

That doesn't mean much. Kobe has 4,000+ more minutes logged in. Huge difference, dude.

[quote]And we've been over this. Kobe's 10 best years.....he's only 2ppg ahead of Dirk. Thats it. On worse efficiency overall. So basically....all that superior scoring you speak of netted kobe 2 more points per game while he took 2 to 3 more shots to get there.[/quote]

On [I]marginally worse[/I] efficiency though. 2+ppg is a sizable difference. Whether Kobe used more possessions or shot a couple more field goal attempts doesn't really matter to me. If Dirk shot 2-3+ more shots could he have equaled Kobe's scoring average? Sure. But he also could have shot worse than Kobe. We really don't know.

What I do know, is that I'd take Kobe from 2006-2008 over any version of Dirk because of his scoring versatility (shoot, create his own shot and penetrate because of his superior athleticism). I'm sure you'd probably take Dirk, which is standard.

[QUOTE=Jacks3]Peak:
Kobe--35.4 PPG/56% TS
Dork--26.6 PPG/59% TS

2nd-best Peak
Kobe--32 PPG/58% TS
Dork-- 26 PPG/58% TS

30+ PPG seasons
Kobe--3
Dork--[B]0[/B]

28+ PPG seasons
Kobe--6
Dork--[B]0[/B]

40+ point games
Kobe--110
Dork--20 (:oldlol: )

50+ point games
Kobe--25
Dork--2 (:oldlol: )

60+ point games
Kobe--5
Dork--0 :oldlol:

Career High--
Kobe--81
Dork--50
Damn. Dork getting shitted on. :roll:[/QUOTE]
Post-season:
29 PPG+--
Kobe--6
Dork--[B]0[/B]

30+ PPG+
Kobe--4
Dork--[B]0[/B]

30+ point games-
Kobe--80
Dork--44 (:oldlol: )

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[QUOTE=catch24]I never said they did. Kobe has had better teams, without question. The point I was trying to make was that Dirk [I]also[/I] had quality help..and there were more than a few years where his teams were considered contenders.



That doesn't mean much. Kobe has 4,000+ more minutes logged in. Huge difference, dude.



On [I]marginally worse[/I] efficiency though. 2+ppg is a sizable difference. Whether Kobe used more possessions or shot a couple more field goal attempts doesn't really matter to me. If Dirk shot 2-3+ more shots could he have equaled Kobe's scoring average? Sure. But he also could have shot worse than Kobe. We really don't know.

What I do know, is that I'd take Kobe from 2006-2008 over any version of Dirk because of his scoring versatility (shoot, create his own shot and penetrate because of his superior athleticism). I'm sure you'd probably take Dirk, which is standard.[/QUOTE]


You can't just ask to throw out 4 years of a players career (29% of his playoff career)...and then turn around and talk about mileage. What about Dirk playing overseas when he was younger? Does that not mean anything. Or the fact that Dirk has missed far less games than Kobe throughout this career. Or that Dirk played 20 minutes a game his first year while kobe played 16? Or that Dirk played 36 minutes his 2nd year while kobe played 26? How about the fact that Dirk has started 968 games while Kobe has only started 955?

I guess it only matters for Kobe though...right? We should ignore Dirk starting pro ball in 1994 in Germany.....

And how is 2 ppg a true gap while the other efficiency is marginal? Makes absolutely no sense. Kobe scored those 2 points on at minimum 3 extra used offensive possessions per game. That makes it marginal. Its dirk scoring at 33% to match Kobe. LOL....easy. And its actually probably more possessions used giving Dirk's far superior ft shooting.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You can't just ask to throw out 4 years of a players career (29% of his playoff career)...and then turn around and talk about mileage.[/quote]

When did I throw out Kobe's first 4 years?

:confusedshrug:

[quote]What about Dirk playing overseas when he was younger? Does that not mean anything.[/quote]

Overseas for a season =/= an 82 game NBA season now?

[QUOTE=catch24]When did I throw out Kobe's first 4 years?

:confusedshrug:



Overseas for a season =/= an 82 game NBA season now?[/QUOTE]

you said you only wanted to compare primes. that is throwing out a large portion of kobe's playoff play. at least 29%.

never said overseas was the exact same, but you have to understand that Dirk is the same age and had mileage on his legs early on as well. and Dirk has started more games and dirk has missed less games. i'm not sure mileage works all the well here. i mean kobe played a small role his first year. something like 15 minutes a game and i don't think he started more than a handful of games. he also played (as usual) on a loaded roster. the lakers won 56 games that year. kobe missed 11 games in year 1. kobe then only started 1 game his 2nd year. the lakers won 61 games. of course mileage matters, but lets not ignore that kobe had it pretty damn easy those first few years.

and even then, we are already throwing out kobe's worst 4 years in the playoffs....i'm not sure how much more you can ask for in a comparison.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]What?

I think playing with a top 8 player of all time in Shaq to take the pressure off more than makes up for the difference in defense quality.

So lets get this straight:

1. You want me to remove 4 years of Kobe's career (that equates to 29% by the way)

2. You want me to ignore that Kobe played on the most stacked teams by far of this era.

3. You want me to ignore that Dirk had to carry his teams more than Kobe did and played with worse teammates and far worse coaching.

4. You want me to heavily factor in everything that favors Kobe.

Sound about right?[/QUOTE]


Your assumption isn't based on anything. Kobe was a more efficient player without Shaq than with him.

1. I want to you to use your brain if you are seriously looking at career PER numbers. Use common sense. If we assume both players are equal one player accumulating data at 18 is going to fare worse than a player who starts collecting data at 22.

2. I want you to quantify how playing with one all star, no 6th men award winners, no 1st team all defensive team winners = the most stacked team of the era.

3. I want you to consider a world where Dirk doesn't choke early on his career. Consider the perception of his teammates and his coaches if the Mavs won 5 out 7 rings in the last decade. Your common mistake is equating a result of Dirk's repeated failures as a positive. The Mavs were not favored so blah blah blah. They were the underdog so blah blah blah... The coaching was bad so blah blah blah. No Dirk's failures led to them being labeled as chokers which in term left them unimpressive to the betting public and his multiple award winning coaches had to be the scapegoat.

4. NBA history favors Kobe. :confusedshrug: What do you want me to tell you? Kobe is only behind Kareem and Jordan for the most playoff points scored of all time. Dirk can schedule 10 more one series flameouts against the Warriors (with impressive PER numbers of course :oldlol: ) and it still won't change that.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]you said you only wanted to compare primes. that is throwing out a large portion of kobe's playoff play. at least 29%.[/quote]

Nope, I was originally comparing their peaks. That's it. What I said was Kobe, at his peak..was the better scorer.

[quote]never said overseas was the exact same, but you have to understand that Dirk is the same age and had mileage on his legs early on as well. and Dirk has started more games and dirk has missed less games. i'm not sure mileage works all the well here.[/quote]

I just don't think think its the same. You gotta consider the physicality of the NBA (more so during Kobe's early years..prior to the rules changes), where the best competiton is at. What makes Kobe's scoring even more impressive is the fact he did it while being his teams #1 playmaker and defender.

Look at the numbers Jacks3 posted. Only Wilt Chamberlain and Michael Jordan rival those type of scoring binges.