[QUOTE=andgar923]So now they're comparing Pip to Magic?
WOW[/QUOTE]
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[QUOTE=andgar923]So now they're comparing Pip to Magic?
WOW[/QUOTE]
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
[QUOTE=andgar923]So now they're comparing Pip to Magic?
WOW[/QUOTE]
Im not trying to compare pippen and johnson. But Im sick of these posters wanting to pick and choose when they want to use context. Like with magics efficiency and pippens. The numbers say magic was more efficient than pippen. But factoring context, the league magic played in as a whole shot a high percentage when compared to pippens era.
Notice how bizil refuses to address the pippen/mchale comparison. He says pippen couldn't lead based on his 94, 95, and 00 the season when he was pushing 35. Due to the fact that pippen didn't score enough. But when I asked him about mchale, he say he would've built a team around him before pippen? Why? He had the chance to lead the celtics in 89 and failed. He only avg 22 ppg like pippen. There was expansion, he had a great team full of players that won championships. He was 31 unlike pippen with the blazers who was almost 35. To sum it up, he led the celts to a 42-40 record. What makes mchale morre of a franchise player than pippen?
[QUOTE=97 bulls]Im not trying to compare pippen and johnson. But Im sick of these posters wanting to pick and choose when they want to use context. Like with magics efficiency and pippens. The numbers say magic was more efficient than pippen. But factoring context, the league magic played in as a whole shot a high percentage when compared to pippens era.
Notice how bizil refuses to address the pippen/mchale comparison. He says pippen couldn't lead based on his 94, 95, and 00 the season when he was pushing 35. Due to the fact that pippen didn't score enough. But when I asked him about mchale, he say he would've built a team around him before pippen? Why? He had the chance to lead the celtics in 89 and failed. He only avg 22 ppg like pippen. There was expansion, he had a great team full of players that won championships. He was 31 unlike pippen with the blazers who was almost 35. To sum it up, he led the celts to a 42-40 record. What makes mchale morre of a franchise player than pippen?[/QUOTE]
U just love callin me out by name don't ya! LOL For one when I comparing Pip to McHale I'm talking peak for peak or GOAT shit. GOAT shit wise Pip might very well have the edge on McHale. But peak for peak, I would take McHale over Pippen. McHale was on a stacked team that featured arguably the greatest frontline of all time. But with that said, McHale was an alpha dog type caliber player at his best. The way he could dominate on the block with those SICK postup moves AND also faceup with a nice midrange game was IMPRESSIVE! And McHale was a very versatile defender capable of checking SF, PF, and C. He often times guarded the SF's in a a golden age of that position while Bird checked the PF's. Mchale at his best was a first team All NBA PF getting 26 a night on title teams. McHale was a beast and WAY MORE CAPABLE AS A NUMBER ONE OPTION TYPE GUY THAN PIP EVER WAS!
Pip in '94 had his chance to prove himself as the man. He was completely healthy and in the peak of his career. Hell that year was his CAREER YEAR! But that wasn't enough to get that Bulls team over the hump. Other than Pip, that team had NO OTHER NUMBER ONE OPTION TYPE GUYS ON THAT TEAM! WHICH MEANS PIP REALLY HAD TO PUT THE FOOT ON THE GAS FOR THAT TEAM TO GO FAR! But the sad part was Pip wasn't a pure number one option himself. Which means the team relied heavily on a great triangle system and great coach in Phil Jackson. They had an All Star caliber PF in Horace and one of the better shooting PG's in the L in BJ. U also had Kukoc who was fast becoming one of the more elite and versatile sixth men in the L. That team overachieved and Pip was the main reason why. But with that said, guys like Bron, MJ, Bird, or Kobe would have taken that team to even greater heights.
Pip runs into problems when compared to other perimeter players in that 6'5 to 6'9 range who are great all around AND can will a team scoring the rock. That Bulls team needed more scoring output to win a ring. Which was the standard in Chicago to begin with. Pip had the prime opportunity to show his greatness as the man on that team. Instead he found himself pointing to his pair of Air Jordans BEGGING MJ TO COMEBACK! LMBAO! And he found his ass pouting on the bench while Phil drew up the play for Kukoc to take the final shot. And TK hit that shit as well! lol
Im not taking into consideration those Blazer years. Pip already established his greatness and was headed for the HOF. I'm basing my theory on his prime years and in particular that '94 year. A young puppy straight outta HS like Bron showed WAY MORE INITIATIVE doing what needed to be done getting the Cleveland team to the NBA Finals early in his career. That Cleveland team man for man HAD NO BUSINESS BEATING THAT DETROIT TEAM! But Bron was so great early on that HE WILLED THAT TEAM PAST THE PISTONS! So as much heat as Bron catches for his clutch or alpha dog gene, he showed way more than Pip EVER DID!
That '94 Bulls team needed Pippen to do some Bron shit to make the Finals! Bron scored 29 of Cleveland's last 30 points, including the team's final 25 points in a double-overtime victory. This is a different level of player that Pip was at his best. Bron is a pass first type player, but at a young ass age he showed the initiative and ability to takeover. Pip was playing with the GOAT and didn't pick up on that greatness MJ had in that aspect. So their is no excuses when '94 came around. The Bulls came off a threepeat and Pip had plenty of cliff notes to study from. But even at that, the bottom line is Pip didn't have that shit to begin with. Perimeter guys like Magic, Bird, MJ, Wade, Kobe, and Bron are just simply on another stratosphere than Pippen. Face facts!
[QUOTE=Xiao Yao You]There's plenty of doubt rather he would have even been an all star if he hadn't been traded to the Bulls.[/QUOTE]
Why do you post on an NBA board if you have never played or watched basketball in your entire life?
[QUOTE=bizil]U just love callin me out by name don't ya! LOL For one when I comparing Pip to McHale I'm talking peak for peak or GOAT shit. GOAT shit wise Pip might very well have the edge on McHale. But peak for peak, I would take McHale over Pippen. McHale was on a stacked team that featured arguably the greatest frontline of all time. But with that said, McHale was an alpha dog type caliber player at his best. The way he could dominate on the block with those SICK postup moves AND also faceup with a nice midrange game was IMPRESSIVE! And McHale was a very versatile defender capable of checking SF, PF, and C. He often times guarded the SF's in a a golden age of that position while Bird checked the PF's. Mchale at his best was a first team All NBA PF getting 26 a night on title teams. McHale was a beast and WAY MORE CAPABLE AS A NUMBER ONE OPTION TYPE GUY THAN PIP EVER WAS!
Pip in '94 had his chance to prove himself as the man. He was completely healthy and in the peak of his career. Hell that year was his CAREER YEAR! But that wasn't enough to get that Bulls team over the hump. Other than Pip, that team had NO OTHER NUMBER ONE OPTION TYPE GUYS ON THAT TEAM! WHICH MEANS PIP REALLY HAD TO PUT THE FOOT ON THE GAS FOR THAT TEAM TO GO FAR! But the sad part was Pip wasn't a pure number one option himself. Which means the team relied heavily on a great triangle system and great coach in Phil Jackson. They had an All Star caliber PF in Horace and one of the better shooting PG's in the L in BJ. U also had Kukoc who was fast becoming one of the more elite and versatile sixth men in the L. That team overachieved and Pip was the main reason why. But with that said, guys like Bron, MJ, Bird, or Kobe would have taken that team to even greater heights.
Pip runs into problems when compared to other perimeter players in that 6'5 to 6'9 range who are great all around AND can will a team scoring the rock. That Bulls team needed more scoring output to win a ring. Which was the standard in Chicago to begin with. Pip had the prime opportunity to show his greatness as the man on that team. Instead he found himself pointing to his pair of Air Jordans BEGGING MJ TO COMEBACK! LMBAO! And he found his ass pouting on the bench while Phil drew up the play for Kukoc to take the final shot. And TK hit that shit as well! lol
Im not taking into consideration those Blazer years. Pip already established his greatness and was headed for the HOF. I'm basing my theory on his prime years and in particular that '94 year. A young puppy straight outta HS like Bron showed WAY MORE INITIATIVE doing what needed to be done getting the Cleveland team to the NBA Finals early in his career. That Cleveland team man for man HAD NO BUSINESS BEATING THAT DETROIT TEAM! But Bron was so great early on that HE WILLED THAT TEAM PAST THE PISTONS! So as much heat as Bron catches for his clutch or alpha dog gene, he showed way more than Pip EVER DID!
That '94 Bulls team needed Pippen to do some Bron shit to make the Finals! Bron scored 29 of Cleveland's last 30 points, including the team's final 25 points in a double-overtime victory. This is a different level of player that Pip was at his best. Bron is a pass first type player, but at a young ass age he showed the initiative and ability to takeover. Pip was playing with the GOAT and didn't pick up on that greatness MJ had in that aspect. So their is no excuses when '94 came around. The Bulls came off a threepeat and Pip had plenty of cliff notes to study from. But even at that, the bottom line is Pip didn't have that shit to begin with. Perimeter guys like Magic, Bird, MJ, Wade, Kobe, and Bron are just simply on another stratosphere than Pippen. Face facts![/QUOTE]
Mchale was 31. Show me a great player that was over the hill by 31 barring injury. He turned in one of his best statistical seasons. Hell he spent most of his career as the sixthman. Which meant he didnt take the pounding most starters take on a nightly basis. The celtics could've used his "alpha dog" bite to finish better than 42-40 in an expansion year. But he didn't even get them to the hump. 42 wins? Pippen had the 95 bulls doing far better. The fact is pippen did better than mchale when they both had the chance to lead their team. So either your theory that you have to be an alpha dog to lead team is wrong, or you have an agenda against pippen.
Mj at 35 with a broken knuckle was on pace for the same record has the 94 bulls with no Pippen and Rodman being out/injured.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]Mchale was 31. Show me a great player that was over the hill by 31 barring injury. He turned in one of his best statistical seasons. Hell he spent most of his career as the sixthman. Which meant he didnt take the pounding most starters take on a nightly basis. The celtics could've used his "alpha dog" bite to finish better than 42-40 in an expansion year. But he didn't even get them to the hump. 42 wins? Pippen had the 95 bulls doing far better. The fact is pippen did better than mchale when they both had the chance to lead their team. So either your theory that you have to be an alpha dog to lead team is wrong, or you have an agenda against pippen.[/QUOTE]
It is well known that McHale played the six-game series against the Lakers in 1987 on what was basically a broken foot. And previously in McHale's career he also had leg and foot problems. So at 31, he body was already breaking down. Bird even said McHale ignored the broken foot, but paid for it in the end. SO YES, McHale had a serious injury at 30 or 31 and was never really the same. So yes the injury argument applies to McHale. In that '86-'87 season, McHale was all NBA first team putting up 26 points and 10 boards. The foot shit ended up getting the best of him, even though he continued to play at a high level. Keep coming at me and I will give u FACTS EVERYTIME!
[QUOTE=97 bulls]How bout this. Pippen is undefeated vs magic in the finals. :bowdown: and he shut him down head to head[/QUOTE]
No he did not. That was one gm
[IMG]http://cdn.screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/Bane-in-The-Dark-Knight-Rises.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=juju151111]No he did not. That was one gm[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that was some "Laker Troll" style fabricating right there.
97 Bulls is a trip. He's always rational right up until Pippen is discussed.
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[QUOTE=bizil]It is well known that McHale played the six-game series against the Lakers in 1987 on what was basically a broken foot. And previously in McHale's career he also had leg and foot problems. So at 31, he body was already breaking down. Bird even said McHale ignored the broken foot, but paid for it in the end. SO YES, McHale had a serious injury at 30 or 31 and was never really the same. So yes the injury argument applies to McHale. In that '86-'87 season, McHale was all NBA first team putting up 26 points and 10 boards. The foot shit ended up getting the best of him, even though he continued to play at a high level. Keep coming at me and I will give u FACTS EVERYTIME![/QUOTE]
Statistics show that he recovered from that injury. Humans do and can recover from injuries. Scottie Pippen had back problems starting in 88 and ended up having back surgery. You gonna make concessions for him? And he had back surgeyr in 98 and I believe it was his back that cost him games in 94. Which most likly cost him the mvp.
Going back to mchale, even if what you say is true how much better do the celtics fair? Not much better. Eight of their wins came against expansion franchises. There's nothing that mchale did that would indicate franchise player. He had plenty of help, it was an expansion year, its obvious his foot didn't effect him that much. Everything but ypur agenda points to pippen being more of a franchise player.
[QUOTE=Nevaeh]97 Bulls is a trip. He's always rational right up until Pippen is discussed.[/QUOTE]
I know ... it's so funny.
Weird too, for someone who claims to be SUCH a Bulls fan, does he not realize Pippen at multiple points in his career begged to be traded because his dumb ass signed stupid contracts because of personal insecurities (almost got traded for Shawn Kemp in '94 and '95) and willingly left a team that could've competed for a ring in 1999 in the shortened season because he was bitter about WHAT exactly?
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Instead went to super club Houston which didn't match his playing style, where he proceeded to look very mortal. Stand in the corner and do nothing for multiple offensive stretches at a time?
[QUOTE=97 bulls]Statistics show that he recovered from that injury. Humans do and can recover from injuries. Scottie Pippen had back problems starting in 88 and ended up having back surgery. You gonna make concessions for him? And he had back surgeyr in 98 and I believe it was his back that cost him games in 94. Which most likly cost him the mvp.
Going back to mchale, even if what you say is true how much better do the celtics fair? Not much better. Eight of their wins came against expansion franchises. There's nothing that mchale did that would indicate franchise player. He had plenty of help, it was an expansion year, its obvious his foot didn't effect him that much. Everything but ypur agenda points to pippen being more of a franchise player.[/QUOTE]
What do u mean statistics show? Bird and McHale BOTH said he wasn't the same player. He was in his physical prime and should have kept getting better. He just turned 30 the year his got that serious injury. And his scoring and boards did take a dip. There have been great players who continued to improve skillset wise even at the age of 30 and after. Magic,MJ, Karl Malone, and Hakeem are great example of this. McHale was at an age where he could have got even more crafty than he already was to begin with. But with that foot his career flatlined and he played less minutes. Then his game began to decline even though he was still very good. But he wasn't GREAT anymore because the foot couldn't hold up as long.
[QUOTE=SwooshReturns]I know ... it's so funny.
Weird too, for someone who claims to be SUCH a Bulls fan, does he not realize Pippen at multiple points in his career begged to be traded because his dumb ass signed stupid contracts because of personal insecurities (almost got traded for Shawn Kemp in '94 and '95) and willingly left a team that could've competed for a ring in 1999 in the shortened season because he was bitter about WHAT exactly?
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Instead went to super club Houston which didn't match his playing style, where he proceeded to look very mortal. Stand in the corner and do nothing for multiple offensive stretches at a time?[/QUOTE]
Good points. And I like Pip, so I won't lay into him too bad (you guys made all the good points earlier anyway). But I will say, we've already saw what happens when Pip is a team's focal point. He gets frustrated and shrinks under pressure.
[QUOTE=SwooshReturns]I know ... it's so funny.
Weird too, for someone who claims to be SUCH a Bulls fan, does he not realize Pippen at multiple points in his career begged to be traded because his dumb ass signed stupid contracts because of personal insecurities (almost got traded for Shawn Kemp in '94 and '95) and willingly left a team that could've competed for a ring in 1999 in the shortened season because he was bitter about WHAT exactly?
:oldlol:
Instead went to super club Houston which didn't match his playing style, where he proceeded to look very mortal. Stand in the corner and do nothing for multiple offensive stretches at a time?[/QUOTE]
Well said! 97 Bulls just can't except the fact that Pip WASN'T a true number one option guy. Which is okay because he was still a great player. But u simply CAN'T put Pip on the level of MJ, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Bron, and Wade. Or even Hondo and Barry. I would also take Drexler over Pippen as well. Pip is SIGNIFICANTLY behind these guys.
[QUOTE=Nevaeh]Yeah, that was some "Laker Troll" style fabricating right there.
97 Bulls is a trip. He's always rational right up until Pippen is discussed.
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What irrational? Im not comparing pippen to jordan. Its just silly to say pippen couldnt have been a franchise player.
Its not irrational to say pippen wasn't a franchise player cuz he didn't lead the 94 bulls to a championship without a suitable replacement for jordan? Even more to imply that toni kukoc as a rookie and pete myers were suitable and thus making the assumption that those two combined equal jordan?
Or that he is a franchise player cuz he didn't score enough? Even though jackson and tex wintr and john bach said pippens scoring was by design and that he could've avg 25-26 ppg but it would've been at the expense of wins? Not to mention is it not irrantional to dismiss his not scoring more to the stamina it takes to be your teams best rebounder, defender, offensive play caller, passer, help defender etc? What other 25 ppg scorer has ever been asked to do the same? The only other player capable of that was jordan.
Or to knock his not being able to beat the knicks who took the bulls to seven games with jordan?
It isn't irrational to try to compare the mid 90s statistics to the 80s statistics when the avg 80s team took almost 800 more shots per year? And played at a different tempo?
You guys are being irrational
[QUOTE=Nevaeh]Good points. And I like Pip, so I won't lay into him too bad (you guys made all the good points earlier anyway). But I will say, we've already saw what happens when Pip is a team's focal point. He gets frustrated and shrinks under pressure.[/QUOTE]
This is an agenda post. At no point during pippen tenure with the bulls would I say he shrunk under pressure. And often he came through under pressure. His itting out that play was not him wilting under pressure, but showing that he wanted to take the shot. How can you call that folding under pressure? He was mad cuz he wasn't able to take the shot.
[QUOTE=SwooshReturns]I know ... it's so funny.
Weird too, for someone who claims to be SUCH a Bulls fan, does he not realize Pippen at multiple points in his career begged to be traded because his dumb ass signed stupid contracts because of personal insecurities (almost got traded for Shawn Kemp in '94 and '95) and willingly left a team that could've competed for a ring in 1999 in the shortened season because he was bitter about WHAT exactly?
:oldlol:
Instead went to super club Houston which didn't match his playing style, where he proceeded to look very mortal. Stand in the corner and do nothing for multiple offensive stretches at a time?[/QUOTE]
Another agenda post. Who gives a shit about his financial decisions? And its clear and well documneted that krause broke up the bulls after 98. You call yourself a bulls fan?
It took Pippen 18 shots to get 22 points while playing with Jordan if he averaged 25 points he wouldn't efficient
[QUOTE=97 bulls]I just wish he could've had five years leading the bulls. There's no doubt [B]he wins an mvp [/B]and dpoy. [B]While leading a team to a championship[/B][/QUOTE]
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[QUOTE=Ikill]It took Pippen 18 shots to get 22 points while playing with Jordan if he averaged 25 points he wouldn't efficient[/QUOTE]
He did shoot 49%. But I do agree his efficiency would suffer.