Magic Johnson vs Larry Bird. Year-by-Year.

[QUOTE=Champ]jlauber:

Though I respect all the data and info you continually come up with, I must say that list of Bird's playoff exploits you posted comes across as cherry-picked, and more than a bit biased. There's simply too much of his playoff success that is ignored or passed over for the sake of argument, while other excerpts strike me as being flat-out wrong.

For starters, I'll point to '81 Finals, where your post stated that Bird played poorly, which simply isn't accurate. Yes, he did shoot poorly, but he also did so many other things during that series to help his team win, while coming through at key moments -- especially down the stretch -- yet there's no mention of this. Why?

You could even argue that he should've been awarded Finals MVP that year.[/QUOTE]

Well, it addresses these myths that somehow Bird was more "clutch" than Magic. Bird had HOF-laden teams that lost with HCA SEVEN times. And in some of those series, he played poorly.

Magic was called "Tragic" in a series in which he put up 18.1 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 13.6 apg, and shot .560...based on a couple of plays and missed FTs.

And I understand Bird's '81 Finals, but it galls me that at least some of the "Bird-lovers" on this site, praise Birdfor his hustle and grit in that series, and then bash Chamberlain, who took far more putrid rosters to within an eye-lash of beating Russell's vaunted "Dynasty" on SEVERAL occassions (and did in fact beat him in one) dominating the games ALL OVER THE COURT. Chamberlain was defending entire teams, and being defended by entire teams, and playing 48 mpg, and yet he is labeled a "choker" by the "Simmonites." An unfair DOUBLE STANDARD.

[QUOTE=MiamiThrice]Great post dude.

Larry Bird was a great defender in comparison to that era. People dont want to give him respect because he is white. [/QUOTE]


FTFY

BTW, Bird was a GREAT post-season player. Much like Magic, he made his teammates better. Personally, I would have taken Magic, but I would have done quite well with Larry, too.

Defensive rating is like the worst way to evaluate individual defense.

Carlos Boozer had a better defensive rating than Dwight Howard did last season.

Are any of you seriously going to tell me Boozer is better defensively?

Including the post-season...

80 Magic
81 Bird
82 Magic
83 Magic
84 Bird
85 Magic
86 Bird
87 Magic
88 Magic
89 Magic
90 Magic
91 Magic

1980- Bird
1981- Bird
1982- Bird
1983- Bird
1984- Bird
1985- Bird
1986- Bird
1987- Magic
1988- Bird
1989- Magic
1990- Magic
1991- Magic

Magic and Bird really became debatable to me in '87, which was probably Magic's best year(though I'm not truly convinced he was better than he was in '90). Magic took his game to the next level that year, while Bird was still in his prime. I'm not convinced Magic actually was a better player than Bird in '87, but with the 65-17 record, a well-deserved MVP, a great finals series, a 24/6/12 season. He seems like the safer choice.

Magic improved a lot throughout his career. When he was young, he was a pretty limited half court player. He'd still be active running give and go plays with Kareem, getting offensive rebounds, finding Wilkes under the basket by threading the needle, and sometimes driving to the basket.

But '80-'83 Magic didn't have the outside shot or post game yet that would take his game to another level. Kareem was really their half court offense.

Magic started showing an outside shot around '84 or '85, and the post game in '87. Magic also didn't become the 1st option until his 8th season.

As much as these 2 are linked, a lot of their primes didn't overlap. Magic's prime was really from '87-'90. And Bird's was from '84-'88.

It is a good comparison comparing those 2 versions because Magic could control the game so much offensively when he became a great half court player. His post game was unstoppable so most teams didn't guard him 1 on 1, but he passed as well as anyone out of the post, so he'd just pick apart double teams. So the best strategy probably was to guard him 1 on 1 and get his. Phoenix did that in '90 when they upset the Lakers. Magic averaged 30, and ended the series with back to back 43 point games, but they lost both and lost in 5. Guarding Magic 1 on 1 most of the time with Dan Majerle seemed to prevent his teammates from going off. Granted, Hornacek exploiting Magic's defense was also a factor.

And the outside shot made a big difference, along with the fact that he started taking the ball to the basket more aggressively when he became the first option in '87.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]1980- Bird
1981- Bird
1982- Bird
1983- Bird
1984- Bird
1985- Bird
1986- Bird
1987- Magic
1988- Bird
1989- Magic
1990- Magic
1991- Magic

Magic and Bird really became debatable to me in '87, which was probably Magic's best year(though I'm not truly convinced he was better than he was in '90). Magic took his game to the next level that year, while Bird was still in his prime. I'm not convinced Magic actually was a better player than Bird in '87, but with the 65-17 record, a well-deserved MVP, a great finals series, a 24/6/12 season. He seems like the safer choice.

Magic improved a lot throughout his career. When he was young, he was a pretty limited half court player. He'd still be active running give and go plays with Kareem, getting offensive rebounds, finding Wilkes under the basket by threading the needle, and sometimes driving to the basket.

But '80-'83 Magic didn't have the outside shot or post game yet that would take his game to another level. Kareem was really their half court offense.

Magic started showing an outside shot around '84 or '85, and the post game in '87. Magic also didn't become the 1st option until his 8th season.

As much as these 2 are linked, a lot of their primes didn't overlap. Magic's prime was really from '87-'90. And Bird's was from '84-'88.

It is a good comparison comparing those 2 versions because Magic could control the game so much offensively when he became a great half court player. His post game was unstoppable so most teams didn't guard him 1 on 1, but he passed as well as anyone out of the post, so he'd just pick apart double teams. So the best strategy probably was to guard him 1 on 1 and get his. Phoenix did that in '90 when they upset the Lakers. Magic averaged 30, and ended the series with back to back 43 point games, but they lost both and lost in 5. Guarding Magic 1 on 1 most of the time with Dan Majerle seemed to prevent his teammates from going off. Granted, Hornacek exploiting Magic's defense was also a factor.

And the outside shot made a big difference, along with the fact that he started taking the ball to the basket more aggressively when he became the first option in '87.[/QUOTE]

You believe Bird was better than Magic in '88? I will say Bird was the better player during the regular season, but Magic was much more consistent in the postseason.

Bird has no argument over Magic in 85. NONE.:coleman:

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Bird has no argument over Magic in 85. NONE.:coleman:[/QUOTE]

:oldlol: More like Magic has no argument. Whether Magic was even the best player on his own team over a 38 year old Kareem is debatable.

Bird was widely considered the best player in the league in the mid 80's. Many were calling him the best of all time, this wasn't said about Magic.

Magic is lucky that Bird was injured in the '85 finals, of course, Kareem was the best player in that series anyway. Bird beat Magic's team...well, Kareem's team actually, in the '84 finals with a team that was considered by everyone to be less talented. And the Celtics had improved by '85, Kevin McHale in particular was approaching his prime.

It wasn't that close until '87.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]You believe Bird was better than Magic in '88? I will say Bird was the better player during the regular season, but Magic was much more consistent in the postseason.[/QUOTE]

Yes, Bird was still arguably the best player in the league, and would probably be my choice for MVP.

Bird's shot was really off in the Detroit series at first due to fatigue(from the 7 game Hawks series) and eventually it got into his head according to Larry himself because you can see him force a few uncharacteristic shots in the series, and he was also just missing shots he usually makes. Despite that, Boston had a chance to win that series(2 games went to OT), and Larry played very well in every other area. His rebounding and passing were phenomenal and his defense was very good, both individual vs Dantley and his team defense.

Larry led a Boston team without a bench to 57 games(would have probably been 59 had he not rested the final 2), He had gotten in much better shape and some were calling it his best season. He led Boston to a 10-3 record without McHale(who missed the first month), and they were 9-2 excluding Bird's 2 limited minute games, and in those 11 games, he averaged 32/11/7 on 51%.

30/9/6 on 53/41/92 shooting for the entire season is incredible. Especially since Bird wasn't a particularly ball-dominant player and played extremely well without the ball.

Magic was in his prime by '88, but it was only his 4th best season, imo, clearly behind '87, '90 and '89.

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Larry was not a better rebounder(Magic getting 8-10 from the PG spot is far more impressive than Bird getting 10-11 from forward) nor was he a better defender(Magic led the league in steals and was a better man defender).[/QUOTE]

Tough to compare their rebounding due to their positions, but look at the frontline Bird was getting 10-11 rpg with. 14 rpg for the entire '81 playoffs.

And in no way was Magic a better 1 on 1 defender. He'd get lit up by good shooters because he roamed a lot, and quicker players who were good off the dribble. In other words, he couldn't guard good scorers.

Bird wasn't a great man defender either, but average and better than Magic.

Bird's help defense was definitely superior though.

[QUOTE=get these NETS]I've never heard of sports fan who believes that Bird was a better player or had a better career than either KAJ or Jordan. I note that you're not even saying that..[/quote]

Having a better 'career' (however you define that) does not mean you are the better player. Horry might have had a better career Drexler; Shaq may have had a better than Hakeem, but it doesn't determine who is better than the other.

[quote]highest rated ncaa finals ever...think highest rated college basketball game EVER...as in EVER..

and the Sycamores weren't shit before Bird..haven't been shit since..

why do you think that game drew such high ratings?[/QUOTE]

Why did Lebron's games get so much coverage? Because he was black? No, because he was that much better than everyone else it was astounding.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]1980- Bird
1981- Bird
1982- Bird
1983- Bird
1984- Bird
1985- Bird
1986- Bird
1987- Magic
1988- Bird
1989- Magic
1990- Magic
1991- Magic

Magic and Bird really became debatable to me in '87, which was probably Magic's best year(though I'm not truly convinced he was better than he was in '90). Magic took his game to the next level that year, while Bird was still in his prime. I'm not convinced Magic actually was a better player than Bird in '87, but with the 65-17 record, a well-deserved MVP, a great finals series, a 24/6/12 season. He seems like the safer choice.

Magic improved a lot throughout his career. When he was young, he was a pretty limited half court player. He'd still be active running give and go plays with Kareem, getting offensive rebounds, finding Wilkes under the basket by threading the needle, and sometimes driving to the basket.

But '80-'83 Magic didn't have the outside shot or post game yet that would take his game to another level. Kareem was really their half court offense.

Magic started showing an outside shot around '84 or '85, and the post game in '87. Magic also didn't become the 1st option until his 8th season.

As much as these 2 are linked, a lot of their primes didn't overlap. Magic's prime was really from '87-'90. And Bird's was from '84-'88.

It is a good comparison comparing those 2 versions because Magic could control the game so much offensively when he became a great half court player. His post game was unstoppable so most teams didn't guard him 1 on 1, but he passed as well as anyone out of the post, so he'd just pick apart double teams. So the best strategy probably was to guard him 1 on 1 and get his. Phoenix did that in '90 when they upset the Lakers. Magic averaged 30, and ended the series with back to back 43 point games, but they lost both and lost in 5. Guarding Magic 1 on 1 most of the time with Dan Majerle seemed to prevent his teammates from going off. Granted, Hornacek exploiting Magic's defense was also a factor.

And the outside shot made a big difference, along with the fact that he started taking the ball to the basket more aggressively when he became the first option in '87.[/QUOTE]
The list you made seems like a regular season nd not including everythin. How is Bird better then Magic in 82 and 88?

[QUOTE]oldlol: More like Magic has no argument. Whether Magic was even the best player on his own team over a 38 year old Kareem is debatable.

Bird was widely considered the best player in the league in the mid 80's. Many were calling him the best of all time, this wasn't said about Magic.

Magic is lucky that Bird was injured in the '85 finals, of course, Kareem was the best player in that series anyway. Bird beat Magic's team...well, Kareem's team actually, in the '84 finals with a team that was considered by everyone to be less talented. And the Celtics had improved by '85, Kevin McHale in particular was approaching his prime.

It wasn't that close until '87.[/QUOTE]

Everything in 85 is even until you look at the Finals where Magic completely outplayed him. Everyone is banged up by that point, using a thumb injury of all things as if its a knee, ankle, or wrist issue is completely laughble.


[QUOTE]Tough to compare their rebounding due to their positions, but look at the frontline Bird was getting 10-11 rpg with. 14 rpg for the entire '81 playoffs.

And in no way was Magic a better 1 on 1 defender. He'd get lit up by good shooters because he roamed a lot, and quicker players who were good off the dribble. In other words, he couldn't guard good scorers.

Bird wasn't a great man defender either, but average and better than Magic.

Bird's help defense was definitely superior though.[/QUOTE]

Magic could get burned by smaller players, but so would Bird-even worse I might add. Difference is Magic was far better at guarding players at or near his own size.

[QUOTE]
Magic improved a lot throughout his career. When he was young, he was a pretty limited half court player.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol: Limited. [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYNDWaEmqto[/url]

I have to add Magic has a great argument in 82 and 83 as he was FAR SUPERIOR in the playoffs.

[QUOTE=jlauber]Including the post-season...

80 Magic
81 Bird
82 Magic
83 Magic
84 Bird
85 Magic
86 Bird
87 Magic
88 Magic
89 Magic
90 Magic
91 Magic[/QUOTE]

Your bias against Bird takes away from your credibility. It makes me question all the you have written about Wilt, which I have found interesting.

[QUOTE=Kobe 4 The Win]That's funny because the years that Magic is given the edge just happen to coincide with the years he was asked to score more and take on more responsability because Kareem was getting super old. Hmmmmmm.[/QUOTE]

What a coincidence! Bird was having back problems and was a shell of his former self during those years. Hmmmmm.


MAYBE give 1987 to Bird, because he was still going strong for some of the year and he SHOULD have won that finals, but otherwise I completely agree.

[QUOTE=jlauber]Well, it addresses these myths that somehow Bird was more "clutch" than Magic. Bird had HOF-laden teams that lost with HCA SEVEN times. And in some of those series, he played poorly.

Magic was called "Tragic" in a series in which he put up 18.1 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 13.6 apg, and shot .560...based on a couple of plays and missed FTs.

And I understand Bird's '81 Finals, but it galls me that at least some of the "Bird-lovers" on this site, praise Birdfor his hustle and grit in that series, and then bash Chamberlain, who took far more putrid rosters to within an eye-lash of beating Russell's vaunted "Dynasty" on SEVERAL occassions (and did in fact beat him in one) dominating the games ALL OVER THE COURT. Chamberlain was defending entire teams, and being defended by entire teams, and playing 48 mpg, and yet he is labeled a "choker" by the "Simmonites." An unfair DOUBLE STANDARD.[/QUOTE]
jlauber, I understand your point of view on this. I hope you know from our previous post that I to am a big Wilt fan and believe him to be one of if not the Greatest player ever.

That being said, you don't make wilts light burn any brighter by trying to blow out Birds. Just as a lot of people cherry pick things about Wilt, you do the same thing to Bird. I think Wilt's greatness stands on it's own. I am as big a Bird fan as their is, but even I think if your building a team, it always starts with the Center. People can say they would take Jordan, Bird and Magic all they want. Give me a great center. I would take Wilt myself but I can understand people who would go with Russell or KAJ. I don't understand people who would take a forward, point guard or a shooting guard.

Have a great day.

These year-by-year threads are getting more and more popular....

Anyway I agree with the OP

[QUOTE=Champ]If reporters were promoting Bird to such a degree, and he was the beneficiary of preferential voting as you say, then why did he suddenly fall out of favor with those same voters during the '87 and '88 seasons, when he was still one of the best players in the game? Did American sportswriters secretly conspire and agree that 3 MVPs were enough?

Of course not. The reason was the same as when Bird had one his awards -- other players, namely Magic and Jordan, had better seasons.

While we're at it, why didn't they give Bird the MVP award in '81 over Dr. J? Given how close it was, and how both players had very comparable seasons, you'd think an agenda-driven, racially-motivated votership would've given the award to Bird easily.[/QUOTE]

first things first

you asked me who "should" have gotten the award over Bird..I posted Magic Johnson's(by then already a champion, proven player) statline and team record for the years that Bird won the mvp

and I posted his statline from years when he won it himself


It's not a stretch to say that Magic COULD have gotten the award one of the 3 straight years that Bird won.

Do you concede that much?

and I note AGAIN.....that you haven't said that Bird was a better player than KAJ or Jordan, but you are dancing around the fact that he won 3 straight MVP awards and that neither of them did.

[B]People are Still Avoiding and Talking as if Bird Wasn`t a Great Defender.

Statistically It Is Shown He Was

Much Better than Magic Defensively[/B]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]People are Still Avoiding and Talking as if Bird Wasn`t a Great Defender.

Statistically It Is Shown He Was

Much Better than Magic Defensively[/B][/QUOTE]
you also said that stockton was better than isiah...so...

[QUOTE=get these NETS]you also said that stockton was better than isiah...so...[/QUOTE]

[B]He Was :confusedshrug: ....Only Things Isiah Was Better than Stockton at Was Driving to the Basket or Slashing 1 on 1 and Rebounding

Stockton Had Better Fundamentals, Better Creator and Passer, Better Floor General, Better Shooter and Better Defender.[/B]

[QUOTE=pauk]How come? Both were 6'9".... and both attacked the boards... You should really see some of the footage of Magic and focus on how he attacks the boards, he would run in on the defensive rebounds as fast as possible (allowed him to start the offensive break even faster and he is supposed to have the ball anyways) and on offense he would especially those first 3-4 years in the NBA attack the offensive boards all the time instead of running back to play defense.. both attacked the boards, position is no excuse here...

Also, Magic didnt even touch the PG position until around 1983, during 1980-83 Norm Nixon was the starting PG, Magic started Forward (played a la point-forward)... his season rebound average career high came during that time actually at 9.6 RPG... During those years of not starting PG he averaged between 7.7 - 9.6 rpg...

Larry Bird averaged 10-11 rpg from the get go... his career average is 10.0 rpg...

A more productive rebounder is a more productive rebounder....[/QUOTE]

Magic was the more productive rebounder. Not all rebounds are created equal. When Magic rebounded the opposing team went in panic mode. Magic was an impact rebounder. He unbalanced the floor and could get points off of the rebound unlike any player ever. I doubt that there is a coach around that would want 10 of Bird's rebounds over 8 of Magics. The whole Laker team would lick their lips when Magic would get the rebound. Their juices got flowing. There is no way you could have seen 87 or 85 finals and could possibly think that there was any semblance of their rebounds being equal. Boston got deflated when Magic rebounded or stole the ball and the inverse happened for the Lakers.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Magic was the more productive rebounder. Not all rebounds are created equal. When Magic rebounded the opposing team went in panic mode. Magic was an impact rebounder. He unbalanced the floor and could get points off of the rebound unlike any player ever. I doubt that there is a coach around that would want 10 of Bird's rebounds over 8 of Magics. The whole Laker team would lick their lips when Magic would get the rebound. Their juices got flowing. There is no way you could have seen 87 or 85 finals and could possibly think that there was any semblance of their rebounds being equal. Boston got deflated when Magic rebounded or stole the ball and the inverse happened for the Lakers.[/QUOTE]

I'll take Bird's 10 rpg on great outlet passing over Magic's 7 rpg which may potentially start a fast break. You are forgetting that Bird himself started alot of fastbreaks when he grabbed a rebound with his outlet passing.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Magic was the more productive rebounder. Not all rebounds are created equal. When Magic rebounded the opposing team went in panic mode. Magic was an impact rebounder. He unbalanced the floor and could get points off of the rebound unlike any player ever. I doubt that there is a coach around that would want 10 of Bird's rebounds over 8 of Magics. The whole Laker team would lick their lips when Magic would get the rebound. Their juices got flowing. There is no way you could have seen 87 or 85 finals and could possibly think that there was any semblance of their rebounds being equal. Boston got deflated when Magic rebounded or stole the ball and the inverse happened for the Lakers.[/QUOTE]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]
So the best strategy probably was to guard him 1 on 1 and get his. Phoenix did that in '90 when they upset the Lakers. Magic averaged 30, and ended the series with back to back 43 point games, but they lost both and lost in 5. Guarding Magic 1 on 1 most of the time with [B]Dan Majerle seemed to prevent his teammates from going off.[/B] Granted, Hornacek exploiting Magic's defense was also a factor. [/QUOTE]
So let me get this straight, the best way to guard Magic is hold him to 43 ppg while shooting a stellar 55% and this great defense will somehow transfer into Coop, Worthy and Scott missing every shot Magic didn't spoon feed them with? And you wonder why it didn't catch on, huh?

Hornacek wasn't breaking Magic down off of the dribble. Rarely ever did Hornacek get points on the initial defender. He scored like Reggie Miller. Magic was by far the best player in that series. And he was twice as good as any Laker in the series. While Majerle's good defense on Magic was stoping Magic at 43/7/8 we somehow missed how it totally crushed Worthy to 24% shooting in his last 80 minutes.

[QUOTE=eliteballer]:applause: :applause: :applause:[/QUOTE]
:applause: I just don't get how people have Bird over Magic in 82. He averaged basically a triple double.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]I'll take Bird's 10 rpg on great outlet passing over Magic's 7 rpg which may potentially start a fast break. You are forgetting that Bird himself started alot of fastbreaks when he grabbed a rebound with his outlet passing.[/QUOTE]
Watch the '85 and '87 finals and you couldn't even pretend they were remotely on the same scale. And you got the screenname to boot. :lol

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Watch the '85 and '87 finals and you couldn't even pretend they were remotely on the same scale. And you got the screenname to boot. :lol[/QUOTE]
Even Bird fans know Magic comes to play in the nba finals/playoffs. He so good in finals they cliamed Magic putting up 18/12/56% is tragic. Magic made a mistake put so did his teammates. 85 n 87 made up for it.

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B][COLOR="darkgreen"]Bird [/COLOR]was A [COLOR="DarkGreen"][U]WAY[/U] [U]BETTER DEFENDER[/U][/COLOR] Than Magic Was[/B]

[B][U]Defensive Rating [/U]

1979-80 NBA 98.2 (6)
1980-81 NBA 98.6 (10)
1981-82 NBA 99.4 (6)
[U][COLOR="Green"]1983-84 NBA 100.8 (2)[/COLOR][/U]
1984-85 NBA 102.8 (9)
1985-86 NBA 99.4 (4)
Career NBA 101.4 (61)

[B][U]NBA & ABA Yearly Playoff Leaders and Records for Defensive Rating[/U][/B]

2012 NBA Josh Smith 93.20 ATL
2011 NBA Dwight Howard 95.73 ORL
2010 NBA Dwight Howard 92.98 ORL
2009 NBA Dwight Howard 98.35 ORL
2008 NBA Tim Duncan 98.51 SAS
2007 NBA Jason Kidd 94.63 NJN
2006 NBA Alonzo Mourning 95.13 MIA
2005 NBA Ben Wallace 93.48 DET
2004 NBA Ben Wallace 83.91 DET
2003 NBA Ben Wallace 90.51 DET
2002 NBA Ben Wallace 86.41 DET
2001 NBA David Robinson* 92.42 SAS
2000 NBA David Robinson* 84.01 SAS
1999 NBA David Robinson* 87.33 SAS
1998 NBA David Robinson* 93.42 SAS
1997 NBA Alonzo Mourning 94.64 MIA
1996 NBA Scottie Pippen* 96.07 CHI
1995 NBA David Robinson* 97.53 SAS
1994 NBA Patrick Ewing* 94.34 NYK
1993 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 96.56 HOU
1992 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.35 DET
1991 NBA Scottie Pippen* 99.52 CHI
1990 NBA Bill Laimbeer 96.32 DET
1989 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.38 DET
1988 NBA Bill Laimbeer 99.51 DET
1987 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 102.24 HOU
1986 NBA Bill Walton* 100.62 BOS
1985 NBA Ralph Sampson* 97.16 HOU
1984 NBA Buck Williams 99.41 NJN
1983 NBA Moses Malone* 95.76 PHI
[COLOR="green"][U]1982 NBA Larry Bird* 94.21 BOS[/U][/COLOR]
1981 NBA Truck Robinson 94.51 PHO
[U][COLOR="green"]1980 NBA Larry Bird* 95.93 BOS[/COLOR][/U]

[U]Defensive Win Shares[/U]

[COLOR="green"]1979-80 NBA 5.6 (1) [/COLOR]
[COLOR="green"][U]1980-81 NBA 6.1 (1) [/U][/COLOR]
1981-82 NBA 5.7 (2)
1982-83 NBA 5.6 (5)
[COLOR="green"][U]1983-84 NBA 5.6 (1) [/U][/COLOR]
1984-85 NBA 5.2 (2)
[COLOR="green"][U]1985-86 NBA 6.2 (1) [/U][/COLOR]
1986-87 NBA 4.8 (6)
Career NBA 59.0 (25)[/B][/QUOTE]

Magic controlled the pace of the game. The game was usually centered around Magic's ability to get the other team off of their game and onto his pace. They had to keep another player at the top of the key in fear of Magic's running ability. So there was always one player compromised on offense because of Magic and five players confused about taking the bait of playing at Magic's pace. Only Nash influenced pace as much as Magic.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Magic controlled the pace of the game. The game was usually centered around Magic's ability to get the other team off of their game and onto his pace. They had to keep another player at the top of the key in fear of Magic's running ability. So there was always one player compromised on offense because of Magic and five players confused about taking the bait of playing at Magic's pace. Only Nash influenced pace as much as Magic.[/QUOTE]

[B]That`s His Jobe cause he is a Point-Guard. I Know He Influced Pace More Than Any PG Ever (but Maybe Stockton, More than Nash) but Still It Was His Job..While Having Alot of Athletic Players Along Side Him for Break Passes Made It Easier for Himself and His Fellow Teamates.

Still Doesn`t Change the Fact that Bird Had More Impact on Defense than Magic. While Magic Had More Impact on Offense Slightly...Yet Bird Had Both Impacts In the Game While Magic One.[/B]

Bird > Magic
Stockton >>>> Isiah
Nash > Magic
/thread

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]That`s His Jobe cause he is a Point-Guard. I Know He Influced Pace More Than Any PG Ever (but Maybe Stockton, More than Nash) but Still It Was His Job..While Having Alot of Athletic Players Along Side Him for Break Passes Made It Easier for Himself and His Fellow Teamates.

Still Doesn`t Change the Fact that Bird Had More Impact on Defense than Magic. While Magic Had More Impact on Offense Slightly...Yet Bird Had Both Impacts In the Game While Magic One.[/B][/QUOTE]
Ohhhh, so KG is definitely had more impact than Barkley??? Glad that argument is put to rest. And you say it so convincingly!

The argument of pace is an argument of defense. If I can control the way an opponents team executes its offense, then it's under the category of defense. When teams get tired and start missing at the end of games its like Motombo back there for defense, except tiredness affects judgement and all execution. I don't care if it is their job. If it affected the other's teams offensive execution it's under the category of defense. If it affects their shots at the end of the game its clutch defense. I know you don't see it that way but its a reality that the offensive team has to deal with because they played Magic's pace.

Bird shot about 54% in the first two games of '87 and about 37% the last two games. And Bird could handle Worthy. In '85 he starts missing foul shots and just doesn't have the energy to shoot in the last two games. Magic pushes the pace, Bird gets tired. Bird's execution level goes down. A very definite relationship between the events. Bird and Celtics can't stop Magic. One player has definitely affected the game and series more than the other. At the very least, pace affects offense and is in the category of defense.

Why did you say Stockton had impact on pace??? He was a great precision passer off of the pick and role but no way was he on Nash's level of influence on pace. MJ's flu game is a classic example of Stockton not pushing the pace when he should have, MJ showed signs of being tired at half time - no way do Nash or Magic do not go on their horse upon seeing that. Nash, Magic and Kidd are in their separate category in regards to pace - except Kidd's pace didn't suck you up mentally like Nash and Magic. Wall has the capacity to supersede them all but that's guess work for now. But this is why you won't hear me complain about Nash's MVP. Overall teams were missing a lot at the end of games and he was the reason why.

Why exactly are some taking Magic over Bird in '80?

[QUOTE=juju151111]The list you made seems like a regular season nd not including everythin. How is Bird better then Magic in 82 and 88?[/QUOTE]

No, my list is just the better player. Postseason is factored in, and it's one of the reasons I went with Magic over Bird in '87 despite not being convinced Magic was the better player yet. Despite Bird having a great playoff run, Magic playing so well in the finals sealed it.

Magic's regular season in '88 definitely didn't reach his '87 level, while Bird's '88 regular season was at least as good as '87, probably a bit better.

With Magic and Bird being so close in '87, the fact that Magic's '88 season was clearly below his '87 one, and Bird's '88 season has a case over '87, but just barely falls short, imo due to his superior playoff run in '87 it makes '88 an easier choice to me.

I'm not going to say Bird is a worse player because he shot poorly in the Detroit series. Shooting that poorly was an anomaly for prime Larry Bird. But look at what he did up until that point, not just the duel with Nique, but he was ridiculously good all year. Whether it was leading the Celtics to such a great record without his second best player McHale despite no bench, or getting Boston to a record not far below the Lakers despite not having nearly the depth Magic did.

Give Boston a bench in '88 and they probably get the championship back, as it is, even with no bench, fatigue(with an older team having to play such big minutes due to the lack of a bench after coming off 4 straight deep playoff runs to the finals), and Bird shooting so poorly, they still had a legitimate chance to beat Detroit. And despite that being one of Bird's worst series, if not his worst, it shows how good his all around game.

And while I rarely do this type of thing, the Lakers got extremely lucky in the finals, just look at the call Kareem got on that missed sky hook. The Lakers should have lost that series.

Magic was not a better player in 1982, I can see why some choose it just looking at the season on paper, but he was not as complete of a player. He didn't have much of a half court skill set yet due to the lack of an outside shot or post game.

Bird was more complete entering the league, which isn't a knock on Magic who was 3 years younger and not the man on his team. While Magic was arguably the Lakers best player by '84, he didn't get to be the man until '87.

Yes, he won a championship, but that was still Kareem's team. Not only because Kareem was by far their best scorer and the one Laker consistently drawing double teams, but because he was still blocking about 3 shots per game which gives him a considerable edge over Magic as far as defensive impact.

Plus, while Magic always had his incredible ability as a passer, his impact as a playmaker on that team wasn't the same as '84-'91 because he was still splitting ball-handling duties with Norm Nixon.

Team success is not a fair way to compare. Kareem was the Lakers clear 1st option in '82, and also their best player. And the Lakers also had Nixon and Wilkes to give them at least 4 all-star caliber players, and they had a rejuvenated Bob McAdoo who played like an all-star, plus Michael Cooper who is arguably the best role player of all-time.

Magic and Bird were not in comparable situations for the first 5 seasons of their career. And the '82 Lakers in particular are one of the most talented teams of all-time.

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Everything in 85 is even until you look at the Finals where Magic completely outplayed him. Everyone is banged up by that point, using a thumb injury of all things as if its a knee, ankle, or wrist issue is completely laughble.[/QUOTE]

How the f[SIZE="2"]u[/SIZE]ck is everything even until the '85 finals? :facepalm Larry averaged 29/11/7, 1.6 spg, 1.2 bpg on 52/43/88 shooting.

Bird didn't just have a thumb injury, he had an assortment of injuries, they were mentioned during the series. Look at how limited Larry was in the Philly series. The first 2 series, Bird averages 30.3 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 6.1 apg on 49% in 9 games despite missing a game in the Cleveland series with bursitis on bone chips in his elbow.

He then averages just 20.8 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 6 apg on 42% in the Philly series. But yeah, he was healthy, despite numerous reports to the contrary and his performance suffering greatly.

[QUOTE]Magic could get burned by smaller players, but so would Bird-even worse I might add. Difference is Magic was far better at guarding players at or near his own size.[/QUOTE]

Bird usually didn't guard smaller players, in fact, he guarded power forwards quite often. Neither were known for their man to man defense, but I haven't seen Bird exploited the way Magic was defensively. If you're going to give Magic credit for his rebounding because of his position you can't ignore his inability to guard smaller players since he faced them much more than Bird because of his position.

[QUOTE]I have to add Magic has a great argument in 82 and 83 as he was FAR SUPERIOR in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]

He doesn't have a great argument, he was clearly not even the best player on his team at that point. His argument is reasonable, but more looking at the season on paper than actually watching their games from those seasons.

And Magic over Bird in '85 is just laughable. Bird was about as clear cut of a best player as you'll see. If you're going to choose Magic over Bird because of a better finals series then you should remain consistent and rank Kareem over Magic because he was clearly the best player in that series.

The difference is, Kareem and Magic were debatable in '85, Bird and Magic really weren't. You have to wait until '87 for that.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Magic was the more productive rebounder. Not all rebounds are created equal. When Magic rebounded the opposing team went in panic mode. Magic was an impact rebounder. He unbalanced the floor and could get points off of the rebound unlike any player ever. I doubt that there is a coach around that would want 10 of Bird's rebounds over 8 of Magics. The whole Laker team would lick their lips when Magic would get the rebound. Their juices got flowing. There is no way you could have seen 87 or 85 finals and could possibly think that there was any semblance of their rebounds being equal. Boston got deflated when Magic rebounded or stole the ball and the inverse happened for the Lakers.[/QUOTE]

I think the exact opposite, Bird's rebounding was something I noticed more watching the games. His technique and instinct seemed better. Magic was a better rebounder than Jason Kidd for example, but much like Kidd, he got quite a few uncontested rebounds the other players conceded so he could start the break.

Bird also played with clearly superior rebounders. Parish for example averaged 12.5 rpg in '89 when Bird missed the season, then there was McHale who was definitely capable of 10 rpg on most teams, as it is, he basically averaged 10 with Bird and Parish(9.9 rpgin '87), and in a season like '86, you add Walton into the mix, and he was still an excellent rebounder.

Kareem post-'81 wasn't a great rebounder either. Plus, before '84 especially, Magic was rarely used as a 1 on 1 player in the half court, with the ball frequently going in to Kareem, Magic could move without the ball and get in position for rebounds

[QUOTE=Pointguard]So let me get this straight, the best way to guard Magic is hold him to 43 ppg while shooting a stellar 55% and this great defense will somehow transfer into Coop, Worthy and Scott missing every shot Magic didn't spoon feed them with? And you wonder why it didn't catch on, huh?[/QUOTE]

My point was that Magic was such a good passer that if you double teamed him, he pick your team apart. Instead, they made him a scorer, and went with the strategy of letting Magic get his instead of letting everyone else. It's a strategy that's been used a variety of times, and with success, even vs guys who were more scorers than Magic.

The Lakers weren't built with Magic averaging 30 or dropping 40+ in mind. But playing him 1 on 1 most of the time may have contributed to the other Lakers struggling. Those players have to be held accountable offensively, not Magic, but credit also goes to Cotton Fitzsimmons for the strategy.

[QUOTE]Hornacek wasn't breaking Magic down off of the dribble. Rarely ever did Hornacek get points on the initial defender. He scored like Reggie Miller. Magic was by far the best player in that series. And he was twice as good as any Laker in the series. While Majerle's good defense on Magic was stoping Magic at 43/7/8 we somehow missed how it totally crushed Worthy to 24% shooting in his last 80 minutes.[/QUOTE]

As far as defense, well, that is the one thing you can blame Magic for. That's why his defense could be a problem, they knew they couldn't put him on KJ(who went off on a much smaller, better defender in Scott, just as he had outplayed another good defender around his size in Stockton the previous series), so he ended up on Hornacek a lot, but Hornacek was a phenomenal shooter, and since Magic roamed quite a bit, he was vulnerable against shooters.

Offensively, Worthy was a legit star in his prime, and he deserved the blame, especially with Tom Chambers guarding him a lot. And there's no excuse for a cast as talented as the '90 Lakers to not get theirs regardless.

Again, I'm not blaming Magic for his offense, or even in general for the series loss. There's not really much of an argument to be had on the '90 series.

Magic 82 >>> Bird 82.

Don't know why people put Bird as the better player other than seeing a double/double.

20 years from now people on ISH will say,

"Kobe in 01 and 02 >> Duncan in 01 and 02

Don't know why people put Duncan as the better player other than seeing a double/double"

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]Magic 82 >>> Bird 82.

Don't know why people put Bird as the better player other than seeing a double/double.[/QUOTE]
He averaged a near triple double. You can even look at the 84 finals Magic shot 56% I think and Bird like 49%. Birds teammates saved his ass. Shaqattacck blaming Bird inconsistent Finals performer on his injury. Ohh pls cry me a river everybody is nicked up. What happen in 87 then? Was he injured again. Bird never really dominated FG% wise in the finals. Bird got outplayed

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]
Yes, he won a championship, but that was still Kareem's team. Not only because Kareem was by far their best scorer and the one Laker consistently drawing double teams, but because he was still blocking about 3 shots per game which gives him a considerable edge over Magic as far as defensive impact. [/quote]
Magic not only controlled the pace but he made all the major decisions. When they ran, and when they didn't, what side of the floor the play would flow and who got it where. Do we wait for Kareem or do we not. When do we set up Worthy instead of Kareem. Kareem came down the court late and was neatly placed on the blocks. He wasn't the leader, he wasn't the inspirational leader, he barely rebounded, he wasn't the first option, he wasn't the glue - he bocked a few shots and posted up. The majority of execution, leadership, team guidance, excitement, attention to detail, risk taking and setting up was on Magic. At the end of the day, Magic's leadership, decision making, winning ways had more impact on the team than Kareem had on any of his previous teams when he did much more than he did on those 80 Laker teams.

In fact Kareem's Laker lead teams lacked leadership, excitement, cohesion and good decision making. They were always a dead end team. Kareem was the better scorer and shot blocker but too much of the Laker teams were a mix and gel of other qualities.

[quote]
I think the exact opposite, Bird's rebounding was something I noticed more watching the games. His technique and instinct seemed better. Magic was a better rebounder than Jason Kidd for example, but much like Kidd, he got quite a few uncontested rebounds the other players conceded so he could start the break. [/quote]
You missed the point I made about the difference in the value of Magic's rebounding vs. anybody else in the game. Its not just the rebound it's what happens after the rebound. Once Magic rebounded the ball the opposing team immediately began playing Magic ball and was subject to Magic's decision making. Its not like just grabbing a rebound. With Magic it was transition, and playing on your heels if you were the defense.
[quote]
My point was that Magic was such a good passer that if you double teamed him, he pick your team apart. Instead, they made him a scorer, and went with the strategy of letting Magic get his instead of letting everyone else. It's a strategy that's been used a variety of times, and with success, even vs guys who were more scorers than Magic.

The Lakers weren't built with Magic averaging 30 or dropping 40+ in mind. But playing him 1 on 1 most of the time may have contributed to the other Lakers struggling. Those players have to be held accountable offensively, not Magic, but credit also goes to Cotton Fitzsimmons for the strategy.
[/quote]
The team has to adjust. I too would try to isolate the brain from the body. But Worthy played horribly (24% is just crazy), Scott played scared and Coop was just off. Magic was on an island by himself. It wasn't the last time Scott and Worthy would do that to Magic. When Worthy lost his blinding speed he lived off of Magic and lost his creativity.

[quote]
As far as defense, well, that is the one thing you can blame Magic for. That's why his defense could be a problem, they knew they couldn't put him on KJ(who went off on a much smaller, better defender in Scott, just as he had outplayed another good defender around his size in Stockton the previous series), so he ended up on Hornacek a lot, but Hornacek was a phenomenal shooter, and since Magic roamed quite a bit, he was vulnerable against shooters. [/quote]
When Cooper and Scott were in the game they frequently guarded Horny and KJ like the Laker's did with most teams that had guys like Majerle and Eddie Johnson at SF. That was the usual and it made sense height wise. It was like that with Coop and Nixon before Scott came. Coop always took the hardest cover and Scott usually the smallest. I can't say I remember this series like that, but I thought it was Magic on Majerle.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]The team has to adjust. I too would try to isolate the brain from the body. But Worthy played horribly (24% is just crazy),[B] Scott played scared[/B] and Coop was just off. Magic was on an island by himself. It wasn't the last time Scott and Worthy would do that to Magic. When Worthy lost his blinding speed he lived off of Magic and lost his creativity.[/QUOTE]

That's the thing that bugs me about Scott. He was a great athlete with some offensive skill, but in big games he always seemed to disappear. Pat Riley use to have private conversations with Scott just to boost his confidence.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Magic not only controlled the pace but he made all the major decisions. When they ran, and when they didn't, what side of the floor the play would flow and who got it where. Do we wait for Kareem or do we not. When do we set up Worthy instead of Kareem. Kareem came down the court late and was neatly placed on the blocks. He wasn't the leader, he wasn't the inspirational leader, he barely rebounded, he wasn't the first option, he wasn't the glue - he bocked a few shots and posted up. The majority of execution, leadership, team guidance, excitement, attention to detail, risk taking and setting up was on Magic. At the end of the day, Magic's leadership, decision making, winning ways had more impact on the team than Kareem had on any of his previous teams when he did much more than he did on those 80 Laker teams.
[/QUOTE]

Great stuff :applause: People can compare respective Xs & Os of players all they want but it's about IMPACT. Magic was running that Laker team from '82 onwards. He was their leader and their driving force. I certainly wouldn't call him their clear cut best player but I've always thought it was a 1a/1b scenario (Magic 1a, Kareem 1b) until 83/84, when Magic officially took over.

1980: Bird
1981: Bird
1982: Magic
1983: Bird
1984: Bird
1985: Bird
1986: Bird
1987: Magic
1988: Magic
1990: Magic
1991: Magic

imo

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Magic was not a better player in 1982, I can see why some choose it just looking at the season on paper, but he was not as complete of a player. He didn't have much of a half court skill set yet due to the lack of an outside shot or post game.

Yes, he won a championship, but that was still Kareem's team. Not only because Kareem was by far their best scorer and the one Laker consistently drawing double teams, but because he was still blocking about 3 shots per game which gives him a considerable edge over Magic as far as defensive impact.[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE=Pointguard]Magic not only controlled the pace but he made all the major decisions. When they ran, and when they didn't, what side of the floor the play would flow and who got it where. Do we wait for Kareem or do we not. When do we set up Worthy instead of Kareem. Kareem came down the court late and was neatly placed on the blocks. He wasn't the leader, he wasn't the inspirational leader, he barely rebounded, he wasn't the first option, he wasn't the glue - he bocked a few shots and posted up. The majority of execution, leadership, team guidance, excitement, attention to detail, risk taking and setting up was on Magic. At the end of the day, Magic's leadership, decision making, winning ways had more impact on the team than Kareem had on any of his previous teams when he did much more than he did on those 80 Laker teams.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=oolalaa]Great stuff :applause: People can compare respective Xs & Os of players all they want but it's about IMPACT. Magic was running that Laker team from '82 onwards. He was their leader and their driving force. I certainly wouldn't call him their clear cut best player but I've always thought it was a 1a/1b scenario (Magic 1a, Kareem 1b) until 83/84, when Magic officially took over.[/QUOTE]

A good discussion. I don't think there is any way to say it was Kareem's team in 1982. Certainly he was still there most overall skilled player, but all the evidence says it was Magic's team and that he was perceived to have more impact/value. From 1982 on Magic always finished higher in the MVP voting. During the 1982 season the Lakers organization made a clear shift from Kareem to Magic as their centerpiece. They fired a coach who favored an offense built around Kareem and hired a coach whose offense would be tailored to Magic.

Now this was however intended to be a subtle transition. Kareem's role did not diminish except for what time took away. He was still their number one scoring option in the half court. It wasn't until 1986-87 that coach Pat Riley went to Magic and told him he needed to be more assertive and that Kareem too now felt it was Magic's time. Magic had thought it was his team for years, but in reflection understood the difference after the 86-87 season and the junior sky hook which punctuated it.

Still the primary reason I just can't see calling it Kareem's team is he didn't do anything to suggest it was off the court. He didn't even try, or feel he needed to. That wasn't much different then before Magic, but when you have a player as dynamic as Magic with the personality to match, that's whothe rest of the team is turning to. In the case of LA, that's very much how it played out.