Top 11-20 NBA Players of all time

[QUOTE]But my number 1 criteria is who was the better player period (that includes defense, where Dirk is one of the worst defensive players in the Top 50).[/QUOTE]

Yeah and I'm sure a guy like Magic and Barkley are still getting ranked higher even though they aren't good/great on defense either. The point should be about impact. Bill Russell doesn't rank lower than Top 10, even though his main criticism is offense.

[QUOTE]Your Top 30[/QUOTE]

I appreciate the thoughtful response. It's your opinion on that list and I'll respect, even though I don't see eye to eye about some of them (it happens).

[QUOTE]Dirk is a great scorer but he's a very one dimensional[/QUOTE]

I disagree here. Dirk has a very polished offensive player to me. He can post up, hit the mid-range jumper, hit the 3, etc... He's just more jump shooter oriented, but that doesn't mean he has one dimension. I actually would apply that to Amare.

[QUOTE]average rebounder (8.2 Rebs per 36 minutes, less than Amare who gets BLASTED for being a "horrible" rebounder ), a pretty terrible defender for most of his career (just as bad as Amare & Boozer who get BLASTED for being "worst PF defenders").[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I don't see too much of an argument there... but then again, he steps up in the playoffs with his rebounding to 10+. That's got be respected. Amare's actually goes lower in the playoffs and Boozer ? 10 a game in the RS and 12 a game in the playoffs... Sometimes, popular perception is misleading. I don't think Dirk's been "terrible" for most of his career, but get your point.

[QUOTE]Dirk has been fortunate to play for one of the best franchises of his era, that have consistently kept the Mavericks flush with talent and are year in and year out one of the most talented & deepest teams in the NBA.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, starting 2001. But guess what ? That's when Dirk started to be the franchise guy. The Mavericks missed the playoffs for 10 years in a row. Sure, the Mavs had talent, but nothing mind blowing. They sometimes didn't have the correct talent to win titles. Sometimes it was too much offense and no defense (2002-2004 Mavs). Sure, Cuban put a lot of investment into the Mavs (though, let's not overrate it), but Dirk also showcased he was a legit superstar.

[QUOTE]He's had better supporting casts during his career than all but a hand full of the other stars of his era and came up short every single time outside of 2011 (with another excellent, underrated supporting cast).[/QUOTE]

Which years are you talking about ?

And check the numbers above, most of the time, they were losing to the favourites and Dirk, for the most part, played great in the elimination games. Infact, they've overachieved more.

[QUOTE]The Mavs were the most talented team in the NBA a few of those years, [I]especially[/I] if you DO believe he is Top 20 ever.[/QUOTE]

Again, which years ?

And, what about the Top 20 ?

Players that I have in my arbitrary Top 20, include Moses Malone and Julius Erving, who were both on the stacked 83 Sixers (no Dirk team compares to that team)... infact, Erving had many talented rosters, arguably the most talented around he late 70s, early 80s...

Kevin Garnett ? 2008 Celtics and has been on very talented Celtics rosters since that team as well.

Charles Barkley ? 93-95 Suns were also very talented, arguably most talented during that span.

LeBron James ? 2011 team was arguably the most talented, some argue were...

There have been others (yourself as well) who have the likes of Isiah Thomas, Scottie Pippen, John Havlieck, Elgin Baylor, Patrick Ewing, Kevin McHale, etc... all those guys played with far superior help than Dirk.

But why does Dirk have to be penalized for having talented rosters ? Besides, I don't even know which years are in discussion for him having the most loaded rosters.

[QUOTE]The problem I have with Dirk, is that I consider him to be the best role player of All-Time, which is both a great distinction and obviously a knock on him at the same time.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I have to strongly disagree about this.

[QUOTE]He's a scorer, that's his role, that's what he does best. He doesn't do anything else on the floor at a more than slightly above average rate.[/QUOTE]

Rebounding in the playoffs ?

[QUOTE]He's not a leader (his own Coaches words)[/QUOTE]

Which coach ?

If it's Nelson or Johnson, I could care less. Neither of them have won rings as coaches to tell me otherwise about leadership.

Now if it's Coach Carlisle ? Well, he also said Dirk is on the level of Larry Bird.

Bottom line, coaches say a lot of things. Really depends how you take those words.

[QUOTE]and while he now has this suddenly incredible rep as a Clutch player, he's been decidedly un-clutch for the majority of his career.[/QUOTE]

It was always there, but the title sealed it.

The numbers back it up for the majority of (you can't be "clutch" or play very well all the time) his games and being "un-clutch" depends also on not just Dirk but the rest of his teammates.


[QUOTE]The Mavs have done a great job of putting pieces around him, pieces that cover up his weaknesses.[/QUOTE]

They didn't do a "great" job in the past the, which is what I mentioned before... they had a sometimes very unbalanced teams before.

[QUOTE]There is no coincidence that the Mavs finally got over the top because he was surrounded by defensive players[/QUOTE]

So were the 2006 Mavs, without the defensive minded center.

[QUOTE]particularly a defensive anchor that can cover his ass in the paint, a great pass first point guard, a clutch SG to help him in crunch time,[/QUOTE]

Chandler was very vital to the team. This year, even though defense was still very good, proved he was more valuable than Brendan Haywood.

Kidd, great pass first point guard, but also inefficient at times on his own offense, unless for 3's.

Are you talking about Jason Terry being the clutch SG ? Because if so, yes he was clutch, but in his past playoff years ?

Like you mentioned in your criteria, you might want check out Terry's flameouts in the playoffs, plus he wasn't a great defensive player of this group.

[QUOTE]an extremely deep team[/QUOTE]

And here's where I feel people overrate that 2011 Mavericks team.

They weren't "extremely" deep:

[IMG]http://gyazo.com/443023694ede60a92fee1d0742a4b831.png[/IMG]

What screams out "extremely deep" ? Not as an all-around offensive and defensive team.

Infact, I've stated that this team was carried for the most part by Dirk and only a few other players have done with less.

Agree, more or less with coach Carlisle.

[QUOTE]A team where he played his role to a T and had his best Playoff run ever by a large margin because he had more freedom than ever to just focus on what he does best and block out the other pressures of being "the man".[/QUOTE]

He also had a lot of freedom on previous Mavericks teams, just either they weren't good enough to close it out, Dirk got injured, or they underachieved.


Yeah, it's an interesting debate. Honestly don't see Dirk as that fortunate for his career, there are things that people overrate about Dirk but definitely nothing to do with his on-court play.

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]1-Michael Jordan
2-Wilt Chamberlain
3-Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4-Shaquielle Oniel
5-Hakeem Olajuwon
6-Larry Bird
7-Magic Johnson
8-Lebron James (He Will Be Top 5 When He Retires)
9-Oscar Robertson
10-Charles Barkley
11-Tim Duncan
12-Moses Malone
13-Julius Erving
14-Elgin Baylor
15-David Robinson
16-Kobe Bryant
17-Jerry West
18-Karl Malone
19-Kevin Garnett
20-Rick Barry[/B][/QUOTE]

Rick Barry? That's just ****ing absurd. He is not top 20 all time.

[QUOTE=Smoke117]Rick Barry? That's just ****ing absurd. He is not top 20 all time.[/QUOTE]

I think he had Stockton over Garnett before... guess he switched that.

:oldlol:

[QUOTE=Smoke117]Rick Barry? That's just ****ing absurd. He is not top 20 all time.[/QUOTE]

Rick Barry in the top 20 is certainly [B]not [/B]absurd.

Basketball's 100 Greatest Players (by Wayne Patterson) ranks Barry as the 10th best player of all-time.

In SPORT Magazine's 50th Anniversary issue, Peter Vecsey also ranked Barry as the 10th best player of all-time.

Both those publications are about 15 years old and were admittedly a bit too pro-Rick Barry, so he's realistically probably in the 17-25 range now.

Bill Simmons ranks him 26th despite hating Barry's guts. Slam magazine's 'Top 500' ranks Barry 21st.

So top 20 is hardly absurd.

[QUOTE=jalbert009]So you saying Dirk>Moses Malone, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson and Lebron James? :lol I'd like to see your argument there...



Dirk aint in the top 15-20. Barkley however is debatable.[/QUOTE]

Dirk is better than those guys except for West.

[QUOTE=noosaman]Dirk is better than those guys except for West.[/QUOTE]
you have to be kidding

[QUOTE=Kews1]you have to be kidding[/QUOTE]

He will go down as the most unappreciated superstar in sports history. He will also go down as one of the most genuine athletes ever.

This dude made playoffs runs with a starting 5 of dampier, antoine wright, terry, and injured josh howard OUT WEST.

No other great team has been as reliant on one player as this Mavs team has been since 2004.

[QUOTE=Kews1]you have to be kidding[/QUOTE]
And, as for primes and peaks, Jerry West arguably should be ranked as the last of them.:oldlol: Moses, Big O and LeBron had a greater peak than West and Nowitzki.

[QUOTE=noosaman]He will go down as the most unappreciated superstar in sports history. He will also go down as one of the most genuine athletes ever.

This dude made playoffs runs with a starting 5 of dampier, antoine wright, terry, and injured josh howard OUT WEST.

No other great team has been as reliant on one player as this Mavs team has been since 2004.[/QUOTE]

didnt know being unappreciated and genuine increased your all time standing.

Anything after top10 is pretty tough but this is mine

11. Oscar Robinson
12. Moses Malone
13. Julius Erving
14. Karl Malone
15. Isiah Thomas
16. John Havlichek
17. Bob Cousey
18. Charles Barkley
19. Dirk Nowitizki (epic 2011 run, beat out #20)
20. Lebron James (epic 2011 choke, lost to #19)

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]I think he had Stockton over Garnett before... guess he switched that.

:oldlol: [/QUOTE]

[B]Bob Pettit and Rick Barry should be there. I had to choose between both cause Stockton was not more dominant than them.

Isiah Thomas over Barkley? :oldlol: [/B]

[QUOTE=BlueandGold]Anything after top10 is pretty tough but this is mine

11. Oscar Robinson
12. Moses Malone
13. Julius Erving
14. Karl Malone
15. Isiah Thomas
16. John Havlichek
17. Bob Cousey
18. Charles Barkley
19. Dirk Nowitizki (epic 2011 run, beat out #20)
20. Lebron James (epic 2011 choke, lost to #19)[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure we should value the opinion of someone who can't spell Cousy, Havlicek or Nowitzki's names correctly...

[QUOTE=Alan Shore]5 pages and walt frazier doesn't even break the top 30? that's a glaring omission.

here are the top 9 in no particular order, all of whom i have seen play with the exception of russell and robertson:

jordan
magic
bird
russell
robertson
lebron
duncan
olajuwon
shaq

they made every one around them better, even shaq-- who learned how to pass out of double teams by the time he played for the lakers thanks to pete newell's big man camp. all were positive-sum players with extraordinary BBIQ.

the next 11 are trickier but in no particular order, though i never saw pettitt play.

abdul-jabbar
chamberlain
bob pettitt
havlicek
bryant
barkley
stockton
rick barry
scotty pippen
dirk nowitzki
julius erving

the next 10 players becomes an increasingly-biased free-for-all.[/QUOTE]


i'll revise the list to accord with the poll:

1) jordan
1) russell
3) bird
3) magic
5) duncan
5) shaq
7) olajuwon
8) robertson
8) lebron james
10) chamberlain
10) abdul-jabbar
12) bryant
13) havlicek
13) pippen
14) pettitt
14) rick barry
14) julius erving
16) dirk
16) barkley
18) stockton
19) moses malone
20) walt frazier

in my opinion it is impossible to tease apart some of these players which is why i have a good number of repeats.

[QUOTE=Alan Shore]i'll revise the list to accord with the poll:

1) jordan
1) russell
3) bird
3) magic
5) duncan
5) shaq
7) olajuwon
8) robertson
8) lebron james
10) chamberlain
10) abdul-jabbar
12) bryant
13) havlicek
13) pippen
14) pettitt
14) rick barry
14) julius erving
16) dirk
16) barkley
18) stockton
19) moses malone
20) walt frazier

in my opinion it is impossible to tease apart some of these players which is why i have a good number of repeats.[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[QUOTE=Alan Shore]i'll revise the list to accord with the poll:

1) jordan
1) russell
3) bird
3) magic
5) duncan
5) shaq
7) olajuwon
8) robertson
8) lebron james
10) chamberlain
10) abdul-jabbar
12) bryant
13) havlicek
13) pippen
14) pettitt
14) rick barry
14) julius erving
16) dirk
16) barkley
18) stockton
19) moses malone
20) walt frazier

in my opinion it is impossible to tease apart some of these players which is why i have a good number of repeats.[/QUOTE]

I think you should stop watching basketball. It's really not working out well for you.

LeBron James and others above Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?! Are you kidding me?

Pippen above Erving and Malone?!

Tim Duncan above Wilt Chamberlain?!

What a joke.

[QUOTE=Alan Shore]i'll revise the list to accord with the poll:

1) jordan
1) russell
3)bird
3) magic
[B]5) duncan[/B]
5) shaq
7) olajuwon
8) robertson
[B]8) lebron james[/B]
[B]10) chamberlain[/B]
[B]10) abdul-jabbar[/B]
[B]12) bryant[/B]
13) havlicek
13) pippen
14) pettitt
14) rick barry
14) julius erving
16) dirk
16) barkley
18) stockton
19) moses malone
20) walt frazier

in my opinion it is impossible to tease apart some of these players which is why i have a good number of repeats.[/QUOTE]

LOL lebron d1ckriding at its finest. And LOL at the rest of the list. :roll: :roll:

I think you literally started watching basketball in July 2012.
:lol

[QUOTE=WillC]I think you should stop watching basketball. It's really not working out well for you.

LeBron James and others above Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?! Are you kidding me?

Pippen above Erving and Malone?!

Tim Duncan above Wilt Chamberlain?!

What a joke.[/QUOTE]


my criteria are:

making others around you better
BBIQ
positive-sum player
will
leadership
clutch, ability to focus

individual stats and media-based awards are not as important to me... no joke.

[QUOTE=Alan Shore]my criteria are:

making others around you better
BBIQ
positive-sum player
[B]will[/B]
leadership
[B]clutch, ability to focus[/B]

individual stats and media-based awards are not as important to me... no joke.[/QUOTE]

:lol
those would definitely drop your boy outta the top 20.

[QUOTE=Alan Shore]my criteria are:

making others around you better
BBIQ
positive-sum player
will
leadership
clutch,[U][B] ability to focus[/B][/U]

individual stats and media-based awards are not as important to me... no joke.[/QUOTE]


[IMG]http://www.miscupload.com/upload/482210517657332074775679.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=riseagainst]:lol
those would definitely drop your boy outta the top 20.[/QUOTE]


not a big fan of lebron james truth be told, but he seems to have, like dirk, taken a big step later in his career instead of emerging fully formed like several other top 10 players.

the criteria is not meant to be applicable across the board for each and every player but if the player possesses more than half of these criteria and in sufficient amount then he passes the test.

my hunch based on your attitude towards lbj is you are a big fan of bryant and there is nothing wrong with that.

[QUOTE=Alan Shore]not a big fan of lebron james truth be told, but he seems to have, like dirk, taken a big step later in his career instead of emerging fully formed like several other top 10 players.

the criteria is not meant to be applicable across the board for each and every player but if the player possesses more than half of these criteria and in sufficient amount then he passes the test.

my hunch based on your attitude towards lbj is you are a big fan of bryant and there is nothing wrong with that.[/QUOTE]

no, has nothing to do with personal biases. I think Lebron is currently at where most people would place him. 11-13 area. Kobe is definitely top 10, like what most people say. But the rest of your list is just outrageous: Kareem at 10. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=riseagainst]no, has nothing to do with personal biases. I think Lebron is currently at where most people would place him. 11-13 area. Kobe is definitely top 10, like what most people say. But the rest of your list is just outrageous: Kareem at 10. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]


i had the benefit of seeing him play. if he were all that you would wish him to be then he should have dominated the 70s, but he lacked many of the criteria i listed in sufficient degree. he had some very solid players to work with and his stats are undeniable as are chamberlain's and erving's and baylor's and yes bryant's too.

as soon as magic johnson arrived his career took on a renaissance.

i guess the litmus test is the question: "which player would you start a team with and build around?" and base your rankings on that.

that's pretty much what my list is about-- because basketball is the ultimate team sport. hope that clarifies things.

[QUOTE=Round Mound]Bob Pettit and Rick Barry should be there. I had to choose between both cause Stockton was not more dominant than them.

Isiah Thomas over Barkley?[/QUOTE]

Let's get two things straight here:

1) It's your call on that list. Pettit isn't the problem and Barry is a stretch, but I don't have a problem with it. Their both over Stockon, though.

2) Why are you bringing up Zeke over Barkley to me ? I'm not the one who has Zeke over Barkley, there is a poster who did but it's not me. Infact, here's my Top 20-25:

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]No order:

LeBron James
Moses Malone
Jerry West
Oscar Robertson
Charles Barkley
Kevin Garnett
Karl Malone
George Mikan
Dirk Nowtizki
Julius Erving

Including what they did in their era. I only feel a bit uncomfortable with my Mikan ranking, but I feel he did a lot too for his era and changed the game.[/QUOTE]

Later reconsidering my Top 25:

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]I would say the next 5 players, to round up the Top 25 would be (no order):

David Robinson
John Havlicek
Elgin Baylor
Dwyane Wade
Bob Pettit (Actually, re thinking about it... I would replace Mikan with Pettit)

@fplii

Why Pippen over Robinson and Barkley ? I think Zeke's too high, as well.[/QUOTE]

I even mentioned to a poster Zeke was too high...

Again, what about Zeke ? Point out the right poster when your trying to be funny. I don't have either Zeke or Stockton in my Top 25 (I don't have it in order either, but their not there)... Their probably Top 30-35 range.

I don't consider Zeke over Barkley. And Stockton over Garnett is a joke, you posted that not me, before switching it over.

[QUOTE=Alan Shore]my criteria are:

making others around you better
BBIQ
positive-sum player
will
leadership
clutch, ability to focus

individual stats and media-based awards are not as important to me... no joke.[/QUOTE]

So a Hakeem, who seldom could even get his team's to 50 wins, beat up one of his teammates, basically demanded a trade, lost EIGHT times in the FIRST ROUND (and most were blowouts), and was nowhere near the all-around dominant player that Chamberlain was...is ranked FIVE slots ahead of him?

One of the most ridiculous posts that I have read in a while...which is saying something.

:facepalm

[QUOTE=Alan Shore]my criteria are:

making others around you better
BBIQ
positive-sum player
will
leadership
clutch, ability to focus

individual stats and media-based awards are not as important to me... no joke.[/QUOTE]

The problem I have with criteria like these is that they are 100% subjective. It's very hard for anyone to relate to the conclusions you draw unless they think just like you.

[QUOTE=jlauber]So a Hakeem, who seldom could even get his team's to 50 wins, beat up one of his teammates, basically demanded a trade, lost EIGHT times in the FIRST ROUND (and most were blowouts), and was nowhere near the all-around dominant player that Chamberlain was...is ranked FIVE slots ahead of him?

One of the most ridiculous posts that I have read in a while...which is saying something.

:facepalm[/QUOTE]


3 spots ahead, yes.

ridiculous is in the eye of the beholder. olajuwon was hampered by ralph sampson who was a horrendous underachiever. then he was surrounded by a lot of bums while trying to get past the lakers. chamberlain for all his dominance underachieved. he admitted his selfishness in conversations with bill russell and he proved how good he could have been when he "decided" to show his critics that he could be a supreme facilitator by leading the league in assists per game two years running, if memory serves. one of those season he won the title with the sixers.

dominance does not correlate with greatness in a team sport. chamberlain is the wellspring of this fallacy.

[QUOTE=Alan Shore]3 spots ahead, yes.

ridiculous is in the eye of the beholder. olajuwon was hampered by ralph sampson who was a horrendous underachiever. then he was surrounded by a lot of bums while trying to get past the lakers. chamberlain for all his dominance underachieved. he admitted his selfishness in conversations with bill russell and he proved how good he could have been when he "decided" to show his critics that he could be a supreme facilitator by leading the league in assists per game two years running, if memory serves. one of those season he won the title with the sixers.

[B]dominance does not correlate with greatness in a team sport.[/B] chamberlain is the wellspring of this fallacy.[/QUOTE]

The bolded is something jlauber just doesn't seem to grasp. It leads him to conclude that M.Malone was a top 10 all time player (and better than Hakeem), which is truly ridiculous.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]The problem I have with criteria like these is that they are 100% subjective. It's very hard for anyone to relate to the conclusions you draw unless they think just like you.[/QUOTE]


you may have a point. but using statistics and awards as the source of an argument rather than support of it seems an empty exercise in my opinion.

statistics in basketball are not as objective or as definitive as people want them to be. the only team sport that statistics seem to work well for is baseball but baseball is different from soccer, football, basketball, and hockey because of its largely static nature.

as my lone supporter "oolalaa" has already implied: it is a mistake to use statistical dominance as a support for greatness in a team sport.

[QUOTE=RIP CITY]

[B]11. Oscar Robertson -[/B] I agree with the sentiment that for what he did in his era he should probably be ranked higher. His statistics are mind boggling for today's game. Some would say, how can you rank him lower when based on your own criteria you said you would chose the best player over pretty much everything else, and his statistics point that he is better than ______ who you have ranked ahead of him. Again, talent and skill level, impact on the game are high points for me. From a talent and skill perspective he is behind the 8 ball in terms of perimeter players because they had a chance to learn from the player that learned from the player that learned from watching him play. It may be unfair to him in some ways but it just is what it is. Still, the fact that he's still so close to the Top 10 shows the lasting power he had despite the lack of predecessorary knowledge.

[B]12. LeBron James -[/B] Really the only reason he's not higher is because his career isn't over yet. I hate him as a fan, don't find his game particularly exciting to watch but you can't deny the talent and skill he plays with even if it isn't as pretty as other players. Though his defense is quite overrated you could argue he's the greatest offensive player ever (you can make a case he is, I don't think he is). One of the best all-around basketball players ever. He will eventually go down as a Top 10 player minimum and probably end up in the Top 5. Unfortunately.

[B]13. Moses Malone -[/B] Dominant big man, extremely productive who fared well against any big man competition he faced.

[B]14. Julius Erving -[/B] Ahead of his time in talent, skill and creativity. Stands the test of time despite players that who patterned their game after him and advanced the perimeter game from where it was when he played.

[B]15. Jerry West -[/B] One of the greatest scorers of All-Time, one of the clutchest players of All-Time. His scoring skills were ahead of their time despite being very fundamentally based. Also a very good rebounder for his position and very good playmaker.

[B]16. David Robinson -[/B] One of the most skilled and talented Centers/big men to ever play the game. He had it all and then some. Great post scorer, good mid-range jump shot, solid passer for his position, set screens, great post and weakside/team defender, great shot blocker, great rebounder, great leader, great athleticism. One of the greatest defensive players ever. Truly the total package, at his peak he was arguably as dominant as any big men in NBA history including some of the bigs in the Top 10.

[B]17. Kevin Garnett -[/B] Will always have detractors because of his lack of Playoffs success in Minnesota and his overblown (not that there wasn't [I]some[/I] truth to it) lack of being the go-to guy in crunch time. But this guy, like Robinson was the total package, maybe the single most versatile player of All-Time and certainly the most versatile big man of All-Time (IMO). Could score in the post, mid-range (and slightly extended), fastbreak and was a great finisher. One of the most athletic bigs of All-Time. Defensively he was a great post defender, help/team/weakside defender, very good perimeter defender for a big man and possibly the greatest pick-n-roll/pop defender of ever. One of the greatest defensive players ever. Really I have a hard time with ranking him, I always want to find a way to rank him higher just hard with the players above him. Amazing talent/skill level.

[B]18. Isiah Thomas -[/B] I'm sure alot of people will want to call this a homer pick but to me there weren't many PG's as skilled or talented as Isiah Thomas. I've always considered him the 3rd best PG behind the Magic and Oscar, he was a great scorer capable of taking over games, one of the best passers of All-Time and a very underrated defensive player (admittedly that took much improvement from his earlier years where he was pretty average at best). He had an enormous impact on the floor.

[B]19. Charles Barkley -[/B] I agree with Charles that he was better than Karl Malone. Not by a ton, by a very slim margin but just enough for me to rank him ahead of him (Malone is #21). Completely agree with Barkley not being as reliant on teammates to get him going offensively. Amazing rebounder, especially considering he was probably 6'6'' bare feet and maybe 6'7'' with shoes. He obviously wasn't the greatest defender in the world and that's what makes him this low on the list, because with a good defensive game to match what he did on the boards and offensively he could have been at least Top 15.

[B]20. Elgin Baylor -[/B] Kind of the Kobe of his time in the sense that, at least in today's debates of these lists, he's one of most polarizing players. Some people say he was amazing, some people say he was very overrated. In my opinion based on watching him play (I've tried to watch as many full games of the Top 20 or so players from before my time) I would say he was a skilled and talented player that was ahead of his time.[/QUOTE]


Really like this list a lot. I like the fact that you put Robinson in there, he was an absolute monster offensively and defensively.

I with you one hundred percent on the Barkely vs Malone debate. Battle of peak/prime vs longevity in my opinion. Which do you value more? Personally I value peak/prime slightly more and therefore tend to side with Barkley, though I can see an argument either way.

I don't think I rate Isiah quite as highly as you do, but I'd put him in the 20-25 range for sure.

My list would probably be

20. John Havlicek
19. Charles Barkley
18. David Robinson
17. Bob Pettit
16. Elgin Baylor
15. Julius Erving
14. Jerry West
13. Moses Malone
12. Oscar Robertson
11. Lebron James

I might change it up a bit when I get a chance to sit down and really think about it, but that's my first attempt for the time being.

[QUOTE=oolalaa]The bolded is something jlauber just doesn't seem to grasp. It leads him to conclude that M.Malone was a top 10 all time player (and better than Hakeem), which is truly ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

Moses and Hakeem were both dominant and great. They both achieved greatness in both individual and team accomplishments. Both achieved dominance in a specific skill.

Besides, even if Moses isn't Top 10, he's damn near close to it, I would assume.

Lets say for example, Moses is ranked Top 15... Moses is ranked 11th out of the Top 15... and Hakeem is Top 10, ranking 10th... is there really THAT big of a difference ? :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Yeah and I'm sure a guy like Magic and Barkley are still getting ranked higher even though they aren't good/great on defense either. The point should be about impact. Bill Russell doesn't rank lower than Top 10, even though his main criticism is offense.[/quote]

Well first, you're bringing up players who in my opinion all had much, much greater impact than Dirk did and are much, much better players than Dirk. Like I said, #1 criteria is peak/prime, who was the best when they were at their best. So why you mentioned this is alittle puzzling. Second, I think Magic and Barkley were better defenders at their position than Dirk was at his. Barkley, while definitely not being a good defender, is an underrated defender, he's not nearly as bad as people make him out to be. Russell wasn't a bad offensive player by any means, he just wasn't amazing so that point missed me too.

Dirk is arguably [I]the[/I] worst defensive player in the Top 50. That was my point and it's something he gets a pass for while other players get trashed for it endlessly.

[QUOTE]]I appreciate the thoughtful response. It's your opinion on that list and I'll respect, even though I don't see eye to eye about some of them (it happens).[/QUOTE]

Same, I appreciate your responses as well, much better than the rest which were just "OMG, you think Dirk isn't Top 20, you moron" etc. It's nice to actually have someone make an effort to have a conversation and not completely ignore what you say and just dismiss it as stupid. I'm finding that very rare on the internet recently. Just based on this debate alone you have become one of my favorite posters on this site... and we don't even agree, lol.

[QUOTE]I disagree here. Dirk has a very polished offensive player to me. He can post up, hit the mid-range jumper, hit the 3, etc... He's just more jump shooter oriented, but that doesn't mean he has one dimension. I actually would apply that to Amare.[/QUOTE]

I meant one dimensional as a player overall, just a scorer, not one dimensional as a scorer.

[QUOTE]Yeah, I don't see too much of an argument there... but then again, he steps up in the playoffs with his rebounding to 10+. That's got be respected.[/quote]

Definitely a fair point, I can agree with that.

[quote]Amare's actually goes lower in the playoffs and Boozer ? 10 a game in the RS and 12 a game in the playoffs... Sometimes, popular perception is misleading. I don't think Dirk's been "terrible" for most of his career, but get your point.[/QUOTE]

The second line of that was about defense. Never mentioned Boozer as a rebounder. It was Boozer and Amare are considered two of the worst defensive PF's in the NBA, yet Dirk has been just as bad as both his whole career. They are blasted time and time again for being horrendous defenders while Dirk is given much more of a pass for his defense in comparison despite being just as bad.

[QUOTE]Yeah, starting 2001. But guess what ? That's when Dirk started to be the franchise guy. The Mavericks missed the playoffs for 10 years in a row. Sure, the Mavs had talent, but nothing mind blowing. They sometimes didn't have the correct talent to win titles. Sometimes it was too much offense and no defense (2002-2004 Mavs). Sure, Cuban put a lot of investment into the Mavs (though, let's not overrate it), but Dirk also showcased he was a legit superstar.[/QUOTE]

While I wouldn't call the Mavericks talent mind blowing, again, since 2000 the Mavs have had one of the most talented teams every year and one of the deepest teams every year. I feel there are a couple other PF's in the NBA that could have won alot with that type of talent around them. Pau Gasol for example would have won alot more in his career had he been surrounded by the kind of talent Dallas has put together over the years. *Calm down everyone, I'm not saying Gasol was better than Dirk, I think Dirk is better* (though probably not by nearly as much as other people do).

[quote]Which years are you talking about ?

And check the numbers above, most of the time, they were losing to the favourites and Dirk, for the most part, played great in the elimination games. Infact, they've overachieved more.[/quote]

I do not believe the Mavericks have overachieved very many times, again, always one of the Top 5 teams talent and depth wise pretty much every year. That's not overachieving to me.

[quote]Again, which years ?[/quote]

I'll have to get back to you on that when I have time to look it up and compare the other best teams from those years, I don't remember exactly what years off the top of my head but I do remember thinking they had the most talented team top to bottom in the NBA a couple times, at the very least they have had the deepest team in the NBA a few times.

Continued....

[QUOTE]And, what about the Top 20 ?[/QUOTE]

That point was not about other players in the Top 20. It was me stating that if he truly is Top 20 like people claim then those rosters are even better than I thought they were because I've never considered him a Top 20 All-Time player and I still do not consider him to be a Top 20 player. Him being a Top 30 player makes those teams less talented than if he is a Top 20 player. That was my point.

[QUOTE]Players that I have in my arbitrary Top 20, include Moses Malone and Julius Erving, who were both on the stacked 83 Sixers (no Dirk team compares to that team)... infact, Erving had many talented rosters, arguably the most talented around he late 70s, early 80s... [/QUOTE]

Again, wasn't comparing him to other Top 20 players in that way. Those players are simply better players than Dirk ever was in my opinion, so who they had around them becomes moot. I go by best overall player first and foremost.

[QUOTE]Kevin Garnett ? 2008 Celtics and has been on very talented Celtics rosters since that team as well. [/QUOTE]

Yet another player that I feel is definitely a better overall player than Dirk. But this one I'll go into alittle bit since they are in the same era.

Dirk played on, at minimum, 5 teams that had better supporting casts than Garnett's best Minnesota team in 2004 (during the time frame KG was on MIN, not during the Boston years obviously). Just think about how long Dirk got to play with Nash and Finley compared to how many years KG got to play with the similar duo of Sprewell and Cassell. Every other year the best player on the team outside of KG was Wally Szczerbiak. Dirk also had one season where he played with Antawn Jamison and Antoine Walker in their primes along with Nash/Finley still on the team. The minute KG had a great roster around him he won a Championship and has had tons of Playoff success since being on that team. He was the best player on the Celtics during that Championship season as well (arguably his entire time with Boston if you consider how important his defense is to that teams success). If Garnett had played his Minnesota years with the type of talent that Dirk had in Dallas during the same period, he would be even further up the list of All-Time greats because he would have undoubtedly had more Playoff appearances and Playoff success than he did in Minny, and debatably another Championship or two (considering those Dallas teams weakness was defense and he was capable of transforming an entire defense by himself).

[quote]Charles Barkley ? 93-95 Suns were also very talented, arguably most talented during that span.

LeBron James ? 2011 team was arguably the most talented, some argue were... There have been others (yourself as well) who have the likes of Isiah Thomas, Scottie Pippen, John Havlieck, Elgin Baylor, Patrick Ewing, Kevin McHale, etc... all those guys played with far superior help than Dirk.[/quote]

Again, all players that are better players overall in my opinion and my point about the Top 20 wasn't about supporting cast, just that if Dirk really is a Top 20 player then those Mavs are better than even I thought they were.

[QUOTE]But why does Dirk have to be penalized for having talented rosters ? Besides, I don't even know which years are in discussion for him having the most loaded rosters.[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily penalizing him for having talented rosters as much as I am pointing out that his success has a great deal to do with the talent around him and that I feel it's just as important to the Mavericks success as he was, where as other Superstars have been more important to their teams success . As I said, I feel he is the superstar of role players, he doesn't do much else well besides score so he fits into the roster more so than he carries the roster. Don't take my calling him the best role player ever toooo literally, I think he's an All-Star level player but he's never had the overall impact of a true Superstar in my opinion. His role is to score and he does it on an All-Time great level but his total impact on the game is lacking in every other area which makes him less impactful overall and is too easily dismissed because his teams have won (while being Top 5 teams talent wise most years).

[quote]Which coach ?

If it's Nelson or Johnson, I could care less. Neither of them have won rings as coaches to tell me otherwise about leadership.[/quote]

It was Avery Johnson. Now, admittedly he's not the greatest Coach but let's not forget he was also an NBA player who was widely known as being a leader on/off the court. Particularly being one of the leaders on the 1999 Spurs Championship team, so I would take his opinion pretty seriously especially considering he said it openly in public (he was trying to motivate Dirk into becoming a better leader), that's pretty damning no matter what you think of Avery has a Coach IMO.

[quote]The numbers back it up for the majority of (you can't be "clutch" or play very well all the time) his games and being "un-clutch" depends also on not just Dirk but the rest of his teammates.[/quote]

Being clutch is two things, yes, stepping up in big games is part of it but the last 5 minutes of close games is also part of it. Dirk was decidedly un-clutch for most of his career in terms of taking over in close games, something most of the players I list ahead of him did very well. Jason Terry might not have always been the best Playoff performer overall but he was the Mavs closer in the Playoffs tons of times, he was usually the one to take the big shots, whether he missed or not and he did make quite a few. He honestly has been just as good as Dirk in the last 5 minutes of close games in the Playoffs overall during his time with the Mavs.

[QUOTE]They didn't do a "great" job in the past the, which is what I mentioned before... they had a sometimes very unbalanced teams before.[/QUOTE]

Here is my answer to the unbalanced teams point, could it be that those teams were so unbalanced because Dirk was the worst or 2nd worst defensive starter on the team every year? Nash was worse during those years but every other year he was the worst defensive starter on the team (there might be a year or two I'm missing where there was someone worse but I doubt it) and one of the worst defensive players on the team. That teams lack of defense should fall on his shoulders as much as anyone. Which is why I rank players that have put up comparable scoring numbers (at least 20 PPG) higher on my All-Time list, because they were all much, much better defensive players.

[QUOTE]And here's where I feel people overrate that 2011 Mavericks team.

They weren't "extremely" deep:

[IMG]http://gyazo.com/443023694ede60a92fee1d0742a4b831.png[/IMG]

What screams out "extremely deep" ? Not as an all-around offensive and defensive team.

Infact, I've stated that this team was carried for the most part by Dirk and only a few other players have done with less.[/QUOTE]

This is one I can tell we are going to end up agreeing to disagree on. That team was definitely deep and very underrated. [B]He did not carry that team, he has never carried a team.[/B] You can not carry a team when you are basically a liability on one end of the floor and only good at one thing. That's not carrying a team, I'm sorry. Players that carry teams are the best player on the team on both ends of the floor. He carried alot of the offensive load (not all of it but admittedly alot of it) but [B]they carried him defensively[/B]. The Mavericks supporting players have always had to carry him on the defensive end of the floor because he's always one of the worst defensive players on the team.

Dirk, Chandler, Marion, Kidd, Terry, Haywood, Barea, Stevenson, Stojakovic that's a 9 player rotation. Most teams don't use that many players consistently in the Playoffs, they also had Cardinal and Brewer play spot minutes and play well in those minutes, Brewer defensively and Cardinal as a hustle player (Cardinal actually had a pretty big impact in one Finals game during a 5 or 10 minute stretch where he took some charges, forced some turnovers, grabbed a couple rebounds.) Not saying Brewer or Cardinal were big parts of the team but they played their little role well when they were called upon.

Now, Dirk carried alot of the offensive load but they still had 7 players averaged at least 7 PPG in the Playoffs, 6 of them above 8 PPG. The only thing that team was missing from being pretty stacked was a legit #2 scorer (Caron Butler was supposed to play that role but he got hurt and has never been the same since). But they had a Defensive Player of the Year type anchor in Chandler, two of the best perimeter defenders in the League in Marion and Stevenson, a very good pass first PG who hit timely shots and played solid defense, a clutch shooting 17.5 PPG (in the Playoffs) SG in Jason Terry, a legitimate albeit not great starting Center as their backup Center in Haywood, a bigtime sparkplug backup PG in Barea and a momentarily rejuvenated Peja drilling some clutch 3's off the bench. Obviously not the greatest supporting cast ever, I'm not claiming it was by any means but they all played their roles just like Dirk played his role as the teams scorer. Maybe the word “extremely” was a bit of an exaggeration but that was a pretty good team and that supporting cast stepped up big time in the Playoffs to compliment him.

Continued, lol...

[quote]Honestly don't see Dirk as that fortunate for his career[/quote]

Look at it like this. Think about all the teams guys like Kevin Garnett (MIN), Allen Iverson (PHI), Paul Pierce (Pre-KG), Tracy McGrady (ORL), Vince Carter (TOR) and Ray Allen (SEA) had to suffer with compared to Dirk's years with Dallas' rosters. Those are all players comparable to Dirk (all better players in their prime in my opinion besides Allen who I would consider an equal more or less), I would say he was pretty fortunate to be placed where he was. The Mavericks have had good Coaching most of those years (Don Nelson, Rick Carlisle. Avery’s first season he helped improve their defense so I’ll say he was a good Coach that one year and mediocre every other year), have had one of the best General Managers (Donnie Nelson) and one of the best owners (Cuban obviously). Imagine how some of those players career's would be viewed if they played on Top 5 rosters for 10+ years of their career like Dirk has. Duncan has played with similar talent levels around him as Dirk (Nash/Finley very comparable to Manu/Parker) and done twice as much, not that anyone would be stupid enough to say Dirk was better than Duncan.

I'm not saying that Dirk has played with the type of talent someone like Shaq has played with (Penny/Kobe/Wade/LeBron/Nash/Amare) but he's been pretty damn fortunate to be on one of the Top 5 franchises of his era if you ask me.

[QUOTE]there are things that people overrate about Dirk but definitely nothing to do with his on-court play.[/QUOTE]

If he's considered one of the Top 20 Players of All-Time then I would say his on-court play is definitely overrated. His total impact on games does not make him one of the 20 Greatest Players of All-Time.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]Really like this list a lot. I like the fact that you put Robinson in there, he was an absolute monster offensively and defensively.

I with you one hundred percent on the Barkely vs Malone debate. Battle of peak/prime vs longevity in my opinion. Which do you value more? Personally I value peak/prime slightly more and therefore tend to side with Barkley, though I can see an argument either way.

I don't think I rate Isiah quite as highly as you do, but I'd put him in the 20-25 range for sure.

My list would probably be

20. John Havlicek
19. Charles Barkley
18. David Robinson
17. Bob Pettit
16. Elgin Baylor
15. Julius Erving
14. Jerry West
13. Moses Malone
12. Oscar Robertson
11. Lebron James

I might change it up a bit when I get a chance to sit down and really think about it, but that's my first attempt for the time being.[/QUOTE]

Since you are one of the posters I respect the most on this site (the most so far since I've been back actually, about 3 weeks) I'm glad to hear you agree. I go by peak/prime over longevity as well, though obviously if the player has a pretty big longevity advantage that plays a factor. Can't really argue too much with your list either, lol.

11. Moses Malone
12. Lebron James
13. Big O
14. Jerry West
15. Dr J
16. David Robinson
17. Isiah Thomas
18. Kevin Garnett
19. Charles Barkley
20. Elgin Baylor