10 seconds left, tied up, ball in Jordans hands. Who do you chose to defend him?

Dumars did the best job on him, but I think Rodman might've been able to do better. He was just usually assigned to Pippen because of the matchups the Bulls and Pistons had (at least that's what I'm assuming). It's crazy that those Pistons had what were probably 2 of the 10 best perimeter defender of the past 20 years.

[QUOTE=9erempiree]prime Kobe.[/QUOTE]


:roll:

gotta go with lebron

prime kobe is halfway down the court looking for his shot, and besides, lakers always puts the taller defender on the opposing teams best player

[B]Real life example[/B] - Bulls were down by few points, and with 3 secs left Jordan got the ball, lost his man and went for the 3PT. Hakeem was in the post but instantly recognized the threat, in a split second got to Jordan and blocked his hot.

Of all the All-time great defenders who could check the MJ, Hakeem probably would be the best - he had exceptional quickness, length, wingspan and high BBIQ to go with it.

[IMG]http://www.basketwallpapers.com/Images-06/Hakeem-Blocks-Jordan-Wallpaper.jpg[/IMG]

Muggsy Bogues..

[QUOTE=magnax1]Dumars did the best job on him, but I think Rodman might've been able to do better. He was just usually assigned to Pippen because of the matchups the Bulls and Pistons had (at least that's what I'm assuming). It's crazy that those Pistons had what were probably 2 of the 10 best perimeter defender of the past 20 years.[/QUOTE]

So did the Bulls :eek:

[QUOTE=DatAsh]So did the Bulls :eek:[/QUOTE]
Bulls had 3 in 96. Rodman and Jordan had fallen off a bit on D at that point, but they were still probably best at their position in the league (at least off the top of my head)

Pippen. Jordan would never expect his own teammate to guard him.

1. Pippen
2. Rodman
3. Cooper

John Havlicek

[QUOTE=9erempiree]Prime Kobe was just a beast on the defensive end. I think MJ will get his crap blocked by Kobe. This is what basically will happen.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhqMuo12ex4[/url][/QUOTE]




So smart of you bringing up this example. He didn't type "Prime" but he obviously refer to Prime Jordan.

[QUOTE=wally_world]Kobe for me

I dont think he will allow his team to lose, then again, neither would MJ[/QUOTE]

Kobe hits 25 percent on game winners, he always lets his team lose.:lol :roll: :applause:

Kobe because it would be hilarious either way.

With 10 seconds left, it's harder for anyone to stop Jordan. I think he's a 50% shooter in those situations, and that percentage was ruined by crazy wild, almost no look 3 point shots that had no chance of going in.

[QUOTE=97 bulls][quote=Overdrive]Originally Posted by Overdrive
Depends what team Jordan is playing on - real teams or some fantasy stuff? If it's the 2nd 3peat Bulls I'd double off Rodman. Leave the Center on Longley and hope he's quick enough to challenge Rodman if he gets an easy opportunity at the basket.
[b]The Sonics tried that in 96. He set a record for offensive rebounds in a game. Twice.[/b][/quote][/quote]

Yes, but that tactic would be only for one situation and that's the endgame situation. If Jordan pulls up with 2 seconds remaining an offensive rebound is of no concern, because Rodman won't get an uncontested putback if the center isn't totally uncapable



[quote][quote]
I'd try to get Jordan to pass the ball to an open teammate that hasn't got a good FT% and foul immediately if there's no more foul to give.
[b]So now youre team is in the penaly for long stretches of the game and you have players in fould trouble.[/b][/quote][/quote]

Again, that's for the last shot in an deciding game, let's say game 7 of the finals, so penalties and foul trouble doesn't matter. My scenario relies on being in the penalty. If my team wasn't I'd just foul Jordan with 5 seconds left and deny the inbounds pass to him and rotate as quick as possible.

[quote][quote]I'd put Kobe or Wade on Jordan and Grant(whatever PF is on the Lakerssquad, doesn't matter) or Bosh as a doubleteam. Although they're slower than Jordan they'd be there to consumate space and bait Jordan into passing to the open man.
[b]The lakers tried that in 91. The result is Jorddan found Paxson wide open time after time.[/b][/quote][/quote]

That's why I would double off Rodman and not off a spotupshooter. I'd put a body infront of Jordan and force his decision.

[quote][quote]
I'd really try to get a last shot and rather go down by one, than gamble on Jordan himself and lose without a chance to tie/win.
[b]If Jordan has the ball in a tie game with 17 seconds on the clock, you aint getting it back.[/b][/quote][/quote]

If Jordan hogs the ball I'd just foul him. If I let Jordan shoot there's a 50% chance he hits it(based on MJ playoff gamewinners). If I foul him the chance to win or tie the game is (based on 49,1 FG% of the average finals opponent - I know it's marginalized a little bit):

3,35%(Jordan misses both fts)+14,68%(Jordan misses 1FT - my team hits GW)+32,77%(Jordan hits both FTs - my team ties)=50,8% to tie or win.

So the chance is 0,8% better

To win in any case it would be:

1,64%(Jordan misses both FTs - my team hits GW)+14,68%(Jordan misses FT - my team hits GW)+24,50%(Jordan hits both my team hits GW 3pt fg)=40,82%

So statistically the best way would be to foul him and take a chance on a last shot to tie or win the game rather than let him shoot and have no shot at a game tying shot. Of course both is a gamble at near 50% chance.

Craig Ehlo, he won't make the same mistake twice. Or was it three times?

Sending Danny Fortson to injure him would be my best chance.

[QUOTE=Haymaker]Prime KG[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmngcHYnfN0[/url]

38 year old Jordan vs 26 year old Garnett.....

LeBron Raymone James

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmngcHYnfN0[/url]

38 year old Jordan vs 26 year old Garnett.....[/QUOTE]

Man those Wolves teams were rank. Coached like shit too.

Brian Cardinal

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmngcHYnfN0[/url]

38 year old Jordan vs 26 year old Garnett.....[/QUOTE]
Damn

Everyone who has put KG to guard Jordan, forget it.

Old ass Jordan punked prime KG in that video, imagine a prime MJ.

KG has no chance.

Great find, Dragon, we have video evidence that KG can't stop MJ.

[QUOTE=Heavincent]Pippen. Jordan would never expect his own teammate to guard him.[/QUOTE]
/thread

Michael Cooper.

Moncrief or Pippen. But idk, Jordan might get bailed out by the refs.

[QUOTE=TheMan]Damn

Everyone who has put KG to guard Jordan, forget it.

Old ass Jordan punked prime KG in that video, imagine a prime MJ.

KG has no chance.

Great find, Dragon, we have video evidence that KG can't stop MJ.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, and this is what makes me laugh. You have guys on this board that swear down that Jordan wouldn't stand out as much as he did in the 80's and 90's and yet there's video evidence of broken down Wizards Jordan torching guys like this, is this era of 'tougher defense'.

Here's old ass Jordan abusing Shawn Marion in his Suns prime:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp__LVQvC7M[/url]

Ron Artest in his Pacers defensive prime:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV52IrBoj90[/url]

How much more fukking evidence is needed? :confusedshrug:

Detroit Rodman

I think we are all forgetting how good of a one on one defender Ron Artest was at his peak(it was a short peak). I have never seen someone better definitively better at his position.

Detroit-era Dennis Rodman. Michael Cooper is a great choice as well. These are the two guys that had the nerve and quickness to play up on MJ and dare him to drive past them. MJ had some big games and some not so big games against both but either way it wasn't easy. This is late 80's MJ I'm talking about.

Reggie Lewis had the size, quickness and natural instincts to make him work but I'm not sure I'd put him on MJ for all the marbles. Had his career not been cut short, he could have been an elite two-way player. He was great as it stands.

2nd threepeat MJ? Payton, probably. He was strong enough to make MJ fight tooth and nail for his post position and quick enough to recover relatively well if MJ gained half a step. He was just short enough for MJ to post up but strong enough to make that option hard as hell. Derek Harper was also tenacious during the playoffs that year, despite the two 40+ point games.

1st threepeat MJ? Roll the dice. He ate up Rodman and Dumars. Reggie Lewis had a good game against him in 91 but was eaten up in the other 3 games, iirc. John Starks did a good job in the 93 Playoffs, but it really wasn't just him. Payton was a light snack during those years.

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]Exactly, and this is what makes me laugh. You have guys on this board that swear down that Jordan wouldn't stand out as much as he did in the 80's and 90's and yet there's video evidence of broken down Wizards Jordan torching guys like this, is this era of 'tougher defense'.

Here's old ass Jordan abusing Shawn Marion in his Suns prime:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp__LVQvC7M[/url]
[B]
Ron Artest in his Pacers defensive prime:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV52IrBoj90[/url]
[/B]
How much more fukking evidence is needed? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

?

Did you even watch that video or did you just read its title "MJ abuses Ron Artest and Pacers".

I just watched it all.

I saw Artest (he was #23 then) guard MJ for 4 buckets total there. And 2 or 3 of them involved picks.

And it is a highlight video, so it doesn't show MJ's misses or times when Artest or whoever was guarding him held their ground.

By the way, his totals for the game were 11/25 FG, 25 points, and 3 assists. Yep, Artest sure got torched :rolleyes: .

Rodman
Pippen
Cooper

i think length on great wheels is crucial to challenge super star shotmakers at the last shot.

[QUOTE=TheMan]
Old ass Jordan punked prime KG in that video, imagine a prime MJ.
[/QUOTE]

Those were few possessions only. Anyone could find ANY elite defender getting "fooled" now and then, it doesnt mean anything - total body of work is what counts, or head-to-head extensive data, NOT a few possessions.

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]
Ron Artest in his Pacers defensive prime:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV52IrBoj90[/url]

How much more fukking evidence is needed? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

and you got debunked right there:

"I just watched it all.
I saw Artest (he was #23 then) guard MJ for 4 buckets total there. And 2 or 3 of them involved picks."

Smart people understand they should base their opinion on more than just a few plays. Like anyone can post how Iverson broke Jordan's ankles, does it mean no one can defend AI, and MJ sucks as a defender? Thats your logic :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=tmacattack33]?

Did you even watch that video or did you just read its title "MJ abuses Ron Artest and Pacers".

I just watched it all.

I saw Artest (he was #23 then) guard MJ for 4 buckets total there. And 2 or 3 of them involved picks.

And it is a highlight video, so it doesn't show MJ's misses or times when Artest or whoever was guarding him held their ground.

By the way, his totals for the game were 11/25 FG, 25 points, and 3 assists. Yep, Artest sure got torched :rolleyes: .[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE=Harison]

and you got debunked right there:

"I just watched it all.
I saw Artest (he was #23 then) guard MJ for 4 buckets total there. And 2 or 3 of them involved picks."

Smart people understand they should base their opinion on more than just a few plays. Like anyone can post how Iverson broke Jordan's ankles, does it mean no one can defend AI, and MJ sucks as a defender? Thats your logic :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

The question asked in the thread is: Who, with 10 seconds left to go, would you use to defend Jordan? So the question itself doesn't refer to someone defending Jordan over the course of a game, but a single late-game possession. That video provided 4 glimpses of Jordan matching up against Artest, and the results of that matchup. Now obviously it didn't show the occasions where Artest may have successfully defended him( if there were any), because it's a Jordan highlight video. But in the scenario outlined in the topic title, the basic premise is which defender gives you the best chance for a single, late-game all-out defensive effort on Jordan.

If you're talking about a matchup with an elite defender and an elite offensive player, especially one at Jordan's level, odds are Jordan more often than not is going to have the advantage and in this case, Artest is going to be faced with any number of scenarios: Jordan taking him off the dribble to the rim, Jordan posting on him( as shown at 1:20), Jordan using a pick, or Jordan pulling up on him. We have no idea what the odds of Jordan scoring or Artest stopping him would be in that single late game 10 sec possession, but the video evidence of their encounter is certainly worth more than what has been mostly speculative commentary in this thread.

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]You're free to post a video of Artest shutting down Jordan in this game if you like.

Point was to show Jordan matched up against Artest and that video provided a sample size of an old Jordan matched against a prime Artest. Ok a few of the plays involved picks. And? What offensive player doesn't use them? You can still extrapolate for the most part how a prime Jordan would fare against Artest.[/QUOTE]

Well i don't have the full game tape of that game or any other Indiana vs Wizards game from 2002.

And actually, if we were to extrapolate stuff, i could say that MJ probably missed 6 shots against Artest in that game, because MJ overall was 11 for 25 in that game (and 11/24 = 4/10).

And even in that video itself, at the 4:45 mark, you can see Artest shut MJ down 1 on 1, leading to an MJ turnover (I don't even know why they left that in the video though, because this was a video of all of MJ's good plays). So, if I used bad logic, I'd go crazy about that one play and say that Artest can shut down MJ. But I can't because that was just one play.

[QUOTE=tmacattack33]Well i don't have the full game tape of that game or any other Indiana vs Wizards game from 2002.

And actually, if we were to extrapolate stuff, i could say that MJ probably missed 6 shots against Artest in that game, because MJ overall was 11 for 25 in that game (and 11/24 = 4/10).

And even in that video itself, at the 4:45 mark, you can see Artest shut MJ down 1 on 1, leading to an MJ turnover (I don't even know why they left that in the video though, because this was a video of all of MJ's good plays). So, if I used bad logic, I'd go crazy about that one play and say that Artest can shut down MJ. But I can't because that was just one play.[/QUOTE]

I gave a more detailed response above if you haven't read it yet...

But on the point of extrapolating, it would be moreso speculation since there's no evidence of Artest actually stopping Jordan 6 times and from what we can see, Artest didn't exclusively guard him this game. But then, this is all speculation, isn't it?

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]I gave a more detailed response above if you haven't read it yet...

But on the point of extrapolating, it would be moreso speculation since there's no evidence of Artest actually stopping Jordan 6 times. But then, this is all speculation, isn't it?[/QUOTE]

I see.

Well yes, MJ was 4 for 4 against Artest in this video (or actually 4 for 5).

But as said, this video showed all of MJ's successful plays. We do not see:

1. MJ making a few dribble move attempts at getting by Artest where Artest stood his ground leading to an MJ pass

2. Artest forcing MJ into a miss (and as said, extrapolating, the most educated guess would say that this happened 6 times)


I can't really take anything at all from that video for said reasons. And nobody can, unless they think that Artest guarded MJ on 5 total possessions in the whole game (the ones the video showed), which is very very unlikely.

[QUOTE=Harison]Those were few possessions only. Anyone could find ANY elite defender getting "fooled" now and then, it doesnt mean anything - total body of work is what counts, or head-to-head extensive data, NOT a few possessions.



and you got debunked right there:

"I just watched it all.
I saw Artest (he was #23 then) guard MJ for 4 buckets total there. And 2 or 3 of them involved picks."

Smart people understand they should base their opinion on more than just a few plays. Like anyone can post how Iverson broke Jordan's ankles, does it mean no one can defend AI, and MJ sucks as a defender? Thats your logic :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
Hmm Ron artest said himself MJ killed him when they worked out and Arrest cracked his rips. Also how do u explain Shawn Marion? He shitted on him two gms and a game winner. A 38 year old on sergery ridden knees embarrassing so called dvance athletes. Lmao be serious. Bruce Bowen said Mj was his toughest cover. Lol at prime Shawn Marion can't guard a broken MJ

[QUOTE=juju151111]Hmm Ron artest said himself MJ killed him when they worked out and Arrest cracked his rips. Also how do u explain Shawn Marion? He shitted on him two gms and a game winner. A 38 year old on sergery ridden knees embarrassing so called dvance athletes. Lmao be serious. Bruce Bowen said Mj was his toughest cover. Lol at prime Shawn Marion can't guard a broken MJ[/QUOTE]

Shawn Marion isnt a good one on one defender. Ron Artest just says random shit. I'm not going to start believing him now.

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]The question asked in the thread is: Who, with 10 seconds left to go, would you use to defend Jordan? So the question itself doesn't refer to someone defending Jordan over the course of a game, but a single late-game possession. [/QUOTE]

Few possessions doesnt say much (if anything) how well certain player would defend someone in general, or with 10 secs remaining.

The real question is, who have the [B]best [/B]chance to [B]limit [/B]Jordan's chances to score? No one can shut down elite scorer like MJ completely, and just posting few plays where MJ outplayed the defender, is neither the evidence for the point above, nor its wise in the first place.

[B]Lets use your logic [/B](and I can post the evidence of those certain plays):

Jordan missed some game winning shots, therefore he shouldnt be entrusted with the ball in the clutch. Few plays is all that matter, not the overall body of work, right? :rolleyes:

Iverson broke Jordan's ankles on the dribble once. According to you, it would be the evidence Jordan wouldnt be able to defend AI.

I hope you understand now, that the "evidence" you posted doesnt mean any of that, its just cherry picking of statistically meaningless data.

[QUOTE=IGOTGAME]Shawn Marion isnt a good one on one defender. Ron Artest just says random shit. I'm not going to start believing him now.[/QUOTE]
Shawn Marion is a good one on one defender. Bruce Bowen said it too. Ron arrest still said it don't be mad