After months of rockets flying into Israel, Hamas military chief dead, fighting rises

[QUOTE=millwad]Haha, what a clown.

I don't know "jack shit" about this conflict but still I was the one who schooled you when you tried to make a claim that Israel just wants peace and how they were willing to give all land back etc during "Camp David"..

You lived in Egypt, that doesn't mean shit and [B][SIZE="7"]you're jewish, nothing you write is things you back up with valid sources or facts[/SIZE][/B]. And really, you being jewish shouldn't make you this biased and stupid and it's not the fact that you're jewish that makes you an idiot, you're an idiot no matter what religion. All your posts are pure made up bogus which you never back up and when you try to mention sourcs you mention propaganda blogs, "Dolph Lundgren" lookalike soldier or you write pure lies about certain events.[/QUOTE]
boom. Well done, Hamas apologist. Let your true colors fly high!

I just posted several articles and quotes about Arab relations with Palestine. Do yourself a favor, read these articles, and teach yourself a thing or two about the real world.

Did you not see the BBC video of that fat idiot pretending to be injured by Israeli bombs being carried Paul Pierce style by 5 guys, and then shown standing up a few seconds later? That was also Jewspiracy propaganda?

Is an Israeli soldier who flew in the Israeli airforce in several missions over Gaza not considered a primary source to you? Yes if this was for a college paper I'd need to reinterview the guy and get some direct quotes, but this isn't a paper for university bonehead, I'm just paraphrasing a story he told.

None of the Israeli soldiers I met have ever seemed to "have an agenda", all of them thought the fighting was stupid, most expressed compassion for Palestine, not a single one showed any hatred, and these are guys who have had their friends killed by Palestinians. They still didn't hate the people because they know it's just a tiny percentage of terrorists f*cking things up for all the normal people. They say most of the Palestinians just want the war to be end and it's a vocal minority responsible for all the terrorist bullshit.

No one likes going to war, they all get drafted in to it.

Also they all hated talking about the war and battle stories, we were all just dumb kids who loved counter strike so we'd always ask about guns and stuff and be excited as if it was a game or a movie, but then they'd tell us stories sometimes and it just made us all shut up for the night.

Also, you consider the Huffington Post and Al Jazeera to be propaganda blogs?

[QUOTE=millwad]Oh, so you being jewish has nothing to do with the fact that you're using BS sources, it has nothing to do with you trying to re-tell events in false ways, it has nothing to do with how you try to blame it all on Palestine?

I just posted several articles and quotes about Arab relations with Palestine. Do yourself a favor, read these articles, and teach yourself a thing or two about the real world.

You posted a blog page with pure propaganda.



Yes, one person represents all Palestinians. Just like this jewish girl who painted swastikas at her door when she was at college in a try to claim it was a hate crime and how she was a victim;

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLt5U7VcHw8[/url]


How stupid are you really, how can you even write a comment like that? So just because the person faked an injury it means that all palestinians like to fake injuries or get hurt/killed in attacks just like how jews like to claim their victims while they paint their own belongings with swastikas..

How can you mention the actions of one person and then blame all the people for it..[/QUOTE]

Al Jazeera, The Huffington Post and ex-Israeli soldiers that worked at a summer camp I went to are BS sources? It is a massive jewspiracy of propaganda right. Al Jazeera is nothing but Pro-Israel propaganda bullshit.

I never blamed all the people for it. But it wasn't just one person. It was the one person and the 6 guys pretending to carry his injured body to safety. They were all in on the bullshit. I never said EVERY PALESTINIAN ACTS LIKE THAT. Again you are just putting words in to my mouth.

Also what does one random dumb American chick crying out for attention have anything to do with anything? Since when does a dumb bitch crying out for attention represent an entire set of demographics 12,000 miles away and across an ocean?

There's only one thing that I believe we can take from this and I believe most people on both sides who can use some form of logic can agree on. That is the implementation of the Israeli state after WW2 has been a pretty big failure.

Now, don't take this as taking the side of Palestine and its supporters. I've posted on here enough how I don't believe there are victims in this ongoing war....but for that discussion you'd need to go back much further than the past 60-70 years.

But again, no objective person can say both sides warring since after WW2 epitomizes success. It's the exact opposite. Many are to blame. However, considering my entire point is that the implementation of the Israeli state has been a failure from the beginning, I'd point to the other western powers as being far greater culprits than most people shine a light on.

If you look at how the state of Israel was founded, you'd almost think that the other powers who brokered the creation of Israel were led by a bunch of children playing some sort of computer game for fun (Civilization?). "Hmmm....let's see what will happen if we throw these people here and....oh, that didn't turn out well....hehehehe."

My only question to those leaders and to you people is this: What the **** did you think was gonna happen? :confusedshrug:

Millwood is sipping way too much of the Pallywood bullshit juice
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbmGv3LgDSA[/url]

60 minutes. Is 60 minutes an instrument of Israeli propaganda too, just like you claimed Al Jazeera and the Huffington Post were?

Criticize me, criticize the source, do whatever you want, but can you criticize the content? It's right there for you to see. Idiots faking injuries worse than footballers, staged set-ups, gunfire going in in places Israeli soldiers never even were, people running with bloodstains on their heads, going into a crowd and suddenly they need to be carried.

I never quoted any of the soldiers I met. I just told you the general gist of what they said based on what I remember. No quotes are anywhere in that story. Yes, you're right, if this was a news article I would not be able to use that as a source! Wow you sure are a smart one! I just said it because it's a personal anecdote I heard from people who actually were a part of the war. You can either choose to read the story for what it is, or deny it as propaganda agenda serving and completely fabricated lies made by just another Zionist rat who is part of the evil world wide Jewspiracy.

You are a moron.

You are just arguing semantics because you can't argue against the reality of what I'm putting in front of you.

You already called Al Jazeera Jewish propaganda. You called the Huffington Post Jewish propaganda.

The whole video is a lie right? Just more Jewish propaganda? How deep does this magical Jewish propaganda machine extend? Do you think Jews control the world too?:confusedshrug:

:roll: @ Al Jazeera being Jewish propaganda...

:roll: :roll: :roll:

There is no reason to justify what Israel are doing to the Palestinians without degrading Palestinians to subhumans.

If I was flying a helicopter warning kids and civilians to get away from a building, and all I saw that my warning did was make even more people go into the building and start dancing on the roof, I'd feel extremely guilty and like it was my fault, that they were all dead. If that helicopter hadn't announced that, the people wouldn't have known to rush to the building.

I'd be traumatized by guilt. Why are you trying to dismiss this guy as a "big hearted" weakling now and trivialize the story as either not a big deal or a lie of propaganda? I think most human beings on the planet would feel bad if they felt responsible for hundreds of innocent women and kids rushing on to a roof, dancing to their own death. Wouldn't you?

I think there's something f*cked up about how your mind works, just based on your interactions in the past with Godzuki and others, I'm pretty sure you got some kind of serious mental issues. I'm done talking to you, I hope you get help in the future.

I think it's fair to say that there is a significant amount propaganda from both sides, and at the end of the day, no one will win. It's just sad. Straight up sad.

[QUOTE=Nash]There is no reason to justify what Israel are doing to the Palestinians without degrading Palestinians to subhumans.[/QUOTE]

Money quote here, from today:

[QUOTE]Israel Dep PM Yishai: “We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages destroying all the infrastructure including roads & water”[/QUOTE]

israel is f--ked up.

palestine is f--ked up.

if you have a clue about anything, you'd see both sides are f--cked up as f--k. but right now, israel are the biggest b!tches.

Hamas, a suicidal death cult and the leaders of Gaza, refuse to stop firing rockets into Israel

Hamas cares more about flinging rockets into Israel than the safety and well-being of their own people

So, it continues

Seems like Israel will keep striking at Gaza until the rockets stop

[QUOTE=insidehoops]Hamas, a suicidal death cult and the leaders of Gaza, refuse to stop firing rockets into Israel

Hamas cares more about flinging rockets into Israel than the safety and well-being of their own people

So, it continues

Seems like Israel will keep striking at Gaza until the rockets stop[/QUOTE]

Yep. In the end neither side will win though both will find someway to claim a moral victory and things will go the usual route. In a few months something else will happen and there will be a new flare up starting the whole process over again. The world will fret, but keep their distance. Rinse and repeat.

lol at Jeff quieting people saying Israel isn't as perfect as he thinks. Guess what Jeff, Israel aren't innocent. Not defending Hamas because they are a bunch of idiots but seeing the administrator's clear bias is just funny as hell.

as a muslim, i was raised to believe that jews and christians were people of the book.

polygamists (hindus and pagans) were the undesirables

lol wtf?

bet u the ottomon empire, the saracens, the sufis, the sunnis would all despise the muslim brotherhood

[QUOTE=insidehoops]Hamas, a suicidal death cult and the leaders of Gaza, refuse to stop firing rockets into Israel

Hamas cares more about flinging rockets into Israel than the safety and well-being of their own people

So, it continues

Seems like Israel will keep striking at Gaza until the rockets stop[/QUOTE]

Respectfully -

Hamas has blood on its hands. Israel does too.

Neither side is innocent in this.

[QUOTE=KingBeasley08]lol at Jeff quieting people saying Israel isn't as perfect as he thinks. Guess what Jeff, Israel aren't innocent. Not defending Hamas because they are a bunch of idiots but seeing the administrator's clear bias is just funny as hell.[/QUOTE]

Jeff/Steve, just deleted every single post I wrote in this thread. Nick-Young was spamming pure misinformation in this thread, wrong fact and he used the most stupid of sources in his try to blame Palestine for everything iand make Israel look like they're perfect when the conflict is a fact due the actions of both sides. He even claimed that a soldier had told him that when he warned the Palestinians that they were going to get attacked the Palestinians didn't try to hide, according to Nick-Young a ton of Palestinians jumped on the roofs while they started to dance as a reaction of them being told that they were about to get killed..

Nick-Young who even claimed he used a source from Huffington Post when he actually took his propaganda from a blog called Huffingtonpostyadiyadi.blogpost.se etc.. And to make my point clear, misinformation by Nick-Young and him using the most worthless of sources in his attempt to push for his agenda is obviously ok but me questioning his choice of sources is obviously a major crime.

And he used a source from the zionist propaganda machine Douglas Murray but me calling Nick-Young out for it was obviously "way out of line" because I just realized that Jeff/Steve used the same garbage article from the zionist Douglas Murray in this thread. I don't know you and I can honestly say that I respect you but you're too sensitive about this. In real life you won't be able to shut people down and even if you think that some of us are way out of line it's not a good idea to just delete it, you can't hide from other people and what they believe in real life and nothing in this thread has been out of line other than Nick-Young spamming about how suicidal Palestinians are..

[B]This will always be a conflict if not even random people like us can't admit that the conflict is due the actions of BOTH sides, Hamas is garbage but the Israeli government is also to blame...

And I must also say that I have in earlier discussions about Palestine and Israel been criticizing Hamas too little. They are garbage, they don't stand for anything that I stand for and their views on humans are in alot of cases disgusting and they are pure gabage. But this is still a conflict because of both sides, this is not a new problem and it existed long before Hamas.[/B]

yea Jeff you need to admit that the right wing in Israel (who are in power atm i believe) are not innocent in this

Not agreeing with Israel's past actions is 1 thing, but trying to blame them for responding to unprovoked rocket attacks is just retarded.

You guys keep ignoring the fact that the Palestinians in the West Bank led by Fatah aren't shooting rockets and coincidentally aren't getting their leaders assassinated/about to get invaded.

Attacking Israel because they pissed off your grandfather is a cop out. If you want to work towards peace stop stirring up trouble and blaming it on the other side's past actions.

[QUOTE=bmulls]
You guys keep ignoring the fact that the Palestinians in the West Bank led by Fatah aren't shooting rockets and coincidentally aren't getting their leaders assassinated/[B]about to get invaded[/B]. [/QUOTE]

This is false though. The West Bank is slowly but surely undergoing Israeli annexing; the presence of Israel in the West Bank is increasing on a daily basis.

Despite the Palestinians living their relatively quietly as you say, Israel is still consistently destroying any opportunity for them to live there in peace and with a semblance of autonomy. In a truly vile and deceitful way too, I might add.

Both sides deserve a huge share of the blame for their current activity.

[QUOTE=KingBeasley08]lol at Jeff quieting people saying Israel isn't as perfect as he thinks. Guess what Jeff, Israel aren't innocent. Not defending Hamas because they are a bunch of idiots but seeing the administrator's clear bias is just funny as hell.[/QUOTE]
Millwad was going into anti-semite bullshit territory. Implying about a world wide jewspiracy of brainwashing propaganda. Explicitly saying my word couldn't be trusted because I'm a lying Jew. Apologizing and justifying Hamas action.

No one's saying Israel is perfect. I'm not. But there's a difference between criticizing Israel, and justifying Hamas. Multiple times this clown has said "What else can they do but launch rockets?" Justification of terrorism. Disgusting. In his little world, Israel's only correct response is to sit there and take it and do nothing while Hamas launches rocket after rocket aimed at Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.

Nobody blaming them for defending themselves but the response is way too big. Hamas sends a few rockets over and kills wooping 0 people while Israel responds by killing 66 people. How is that defending yourself? That's like a dude pushing someone only for the other guy to fu*kin' beat that other person to death. At one point it goes from defending yourself to a whole other thing.

[QUOTE=Nash]Nobody blaming them for defending themselves but the response is way too big. Hamas sends a few rockets over and kills wooping 0 people while Israel responds by killing 66 people. How is that defending yourself? That's like a dude pushing someone only for the other guy to fu*kin' beat that other person to death. At one point it goes from defending yourself to a whole other thing.[/QUOTE]
Inappropriate response?:facepalm
Why is this so hard for you to understand. I'll try to make it simple.

Hamas spams out rockets launched at civilian citizens.
Because the rockets are shitty Iranian designed scudmissiles, they often don't reach their target. However, they are launched with intent to kill a large number of civilians. Are Israelis supposed to just brush it under the rug and forgive Hamas because these deadly missiles don't hit their target?

Because the missiles are so shitty, Israel is immediately able to identify where the missiles come from. ALWAYS the missiles are coming from highly congested civilian areas.

So Israel in response, launches their high tech targeting missile systems at the originating area from the rocket blast. Yes civilians die. It is Hamas' fault, because they are basically using civilians as human shields. Most of the time they are probably unwilling human shields. Yes it is very sad.

But all of this "disproportionate response" is nothing but BS. Hamas launches hundreds of rockets aimed at Israeli civilians every year, they average atleast 3 a day every single day OF THE YEAR.

If Hamas wants to launch rockets at Israeli civilians, ok, that's cowardly, but ATLEAST they should have the decency to launch the rockets from the middle of the desert where no Palestinian civilians will get injured, rather than in suburban neighborhoods where they know their own civilians are likely to die.

When did Israel respond by killing 66 people?

And Hamas are claiming Israel is responsible for the death of a little baby and a little girl, but like I've said, they've proven time and time again to give out inaccurate victim grubbing information to world news. Do you really believe these guys are 100% truthful?

And if a baby and little girl did actually die then that is horrific. It's really really sad. But again, it's the terrorist's fault for hanging out in the same area as those little children when he knows the whole IDF is after him.

Also when their children die it is the end of the world. When one of their scudmissiles actually hits and kills Israeli children, it is righteous victory and freedom fighting.

Let's say Mexicans in Baja start launching scud missiles aimed at the city of San Diego, launching out of a highly popular mexican Burrito truck. What is the correct US response? Take the scudmissiles and pretend it never happened?

[url]http://www.thomaswilliamson.net/who_owns_the_land.htm[/url]

[QUOTE]The booklet "Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict" by Jews for Justice in the Middle East states that "in 1948, at the moment that Israel declared itself a state, it legally owned a little more than 6% of the land of Palestine."

Robin Miller in "The Expulsion of the Palestinians 1947-1948, says, "Before 1948, Jews owned only 1.5 million of the 26 million dunams of land in Palestine . . . After the eviction of the Palestinians, Israel controlled 20 million dunams, an increase from 6% to 77% of the total. [SIZE="5"]They simply stole an entire country[/SIZE]."
[/QUOTE]

/End thread

What's really funny about this... let's imagine for a second this parallel universe where Mexicans start to migrate to US in waves and then backed by let's say China and Russia, they beat the Us army and declare themselves a Nation and Americans are force to go to let's say to Minnesota and some neighbor states, what's really funny, it's the idiots here that are whining about rockets being launched, would be the first ones in line to launch those rockets :lol


[QUOTE]
The Jews of today claim to be the descendants of those invaders. The Zionist claim that the Jews were returning to their ancestral land has often included a corollary that the Arabs are later interlopers and as such not truly rooted in the land.
[/QUOTE]
I just find it hilarious that Jews claim they own the land because they are descendants of the Jews that INVADED the land. :lol

[quote=Blue&Orange]


I just find it hilarious that Jews claim they own the land because they are descendants of the Jews that INVADED the land. :lol[/quote]

No, they claim they own the land, because it's the land attributed to them by God. They have a divine and thus uncontestable claim on the land. That is the root to the problem, the reason why both sides can't play nice and share the country in a democratic fashion.

[QUOTE=LJJ]No, they claim they own the land, because it's the land attributed to them by God. They have a divine and thus uncontestable claim on the land. That is the root to the problem, the reason why both sides can't play nice and share the country in a democratic fashion.[/QUOTE]
I just don't get it why Mit Romney was pro-Israel, isn't he a mormon? doesn't he believe Jerusalem was in fact in somewhere near Utah or something like that?

Religious people :lol

[QUOTE=RaininThrees]Neither side is innocent in this.[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfmWurRgmMM[/url]
[B]Body Of Lies: Nobody's innocent in this shit[/B]

[B]NOBODY.[/B]

[QUOTE=Nash]Nobody blaming them for defending themselves but the response is way too big. Hamas sends a few rockets over and kills wooping 0 people while Israel responds by killing 66 people. How is that defending yourself? That's like a dude pushing someone only for the other guy to fu*kin' beat that other person to death. At one point it goes from defending yourself to a whole other thing.[/QUOTE]


its called deterrence. same reason we go chasing 9/11 bombers all over the world and other terrorists. not just to catch/kill them but so they have second thoughts of doing it again, or know they're not going to get away with it easy if they try. deterrence is really the only thing Israel can do to curb the rocket attacks, or that we can do to curb terrorist threats.

and honestly the people who take the Palestinian side in this give some very weak arguments. most of you seem to ignore who is provoking who to cause the deaths that you're constantly citing as some guilt trip, and the other half are trying to use history from a long time ago to justify their right to the land they're fighting for when the reality of it is Israel could've wiped out Palestine a long time ago and taken it. as others have mentioned history is full of examples where land is taken/conquered to this day. thats not justification to keep launching rockets into Israel territory then cry to the rest of the world for sympathy when they retaliate and kill 10x's as many Palestinians.

i really wish i could see both sides since i'd swear i was impartial but have to side with Israel for the common sense factor in whats presented, and who is provoking who in the current situation. if you want to keep using history as its their right to the land then stop crying when they get their asses kicked.

[QUOTE=Blue&Orange][url]http://www.thomaswilliamson.net/who_owns_the_land.htm[/url]



/End thread

What's really funny about this... let's imagine for a second this parallel universe where Mexicans start to migrate to US in waves and then backed by let's say China and Russia, they beat the Us army and declare themselves a Nation and Americans are force to go to let's say to Minnesota and some neighbor states, what's really funny, it's the idiots here that are whining about rockets being launched, would be the first ones in line to launch those rockets :lol



I just find it hilarious that Jews claim they own the land because they are descendants of the Jews that INVADED the land. :lol[/QUOTE]

by your logic we should give american indians their land back because they were here first. reality is we took it, its ours now, thats the distant past, and we're living in the present. might makes right and its always been that way. survival of the fittest.

and yes we'd have to take it up the ass if Russia took over the U.S. and we only had a parcel of it left IF they were much stronger than we are and any help we could get. thats the reality of life since forever...thinking that way does nothing to fix the issue more than keep justifying the weaker side to constantly get their asses kicked.

[QUOTE=Dolphin]There's only one thing that I believe we can take from this and I believe most people on both sides who can use some form of logic can agree on. That is the implementation of the Israeli state after WW2 has been a pretty big failure.

Now, don't take this as taking the side of Palestine and its supporters. I've posted on here enough how I don't believe there are victims in this ongoing war....but for that discussion you'd need to go back much further than the past 60-70 years.

But again, no objective person can say both sides warring since after WW2 epitomizes success. It's the exact opposite. Many are to blame. However, considering my entire point is that the implementation of the Israeli state has been a failure from the beginning, I'd point to the other western powers as being far greater culprits than most people shine a light on.

If you look at how the state of Israel was founded, you'd almost think that the other powers who brokered the creation of Israel were led by a bunch of children playing some sort of computer game for fun (Civilization?). "Hmmm....let's see what will happen if we throw these people here and....oh, that didn't turn out well....hehehehe."

My only question to those leaders and to you people is this: What the **** did you think was gonna happen? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

i just don't understand why so many of you keep talking about whats already done and won't be undone, when it does nothing to fix the current situation. people always want to bring up the Palestinian deaths here to make Israel the bad guys, which initially started from rocket fire into Israel territory. theres a huge difference between who starts these between recent rocket fire to the retaliation that causes those deaths, than some history and mistake made a long time ago that is irreversible. its just crying over spilled milk at this point.

(Worthless insults and ranting removed)

[QUOTE=Godzuki]i just don't understand why so many of you keep talking about whats already done and won't be undone, when it does nothing to fix the current situation. people always want to bring up the Palestinian deaths here to make Israel the bad guys, which initially started from rocket fire into Israel territory. theres a huge difference between who starts these between recent rocket fire to the retaliation that causes those deaths, than some history and mistake made a long time ago that is irreversible. its just crying over spilled milk at this point.[/QUOTE]

Because I don't see any plausible fix to the current situation and it has been talked about to death here.....so I'd rather focus on more interesting subjects ie. how the west was dumb enough to think this venture would be a success.

[QUOTE=Blue&Orange]What's really funny about this... let's imagine for a second this parallel universe where Mexicans start to migrate to US in waves and then backed by let's say China and Russia, (blah blah blah blah)[/QUOTE]


You're badly misinformed.

First of all, it's 2012, and you're still ranting on how Israel actually formed. It's old news. It's done. Most countries on this planet formed with somebody winning, and somebody losing.

But as for what you said, that Israel "stole a country" -- that's just FACTUALLY INCORRECT.

Palestine was NEVER a country. It was a land territory.

80 percent of it DID become a country -- JORDAN.

"Palestinians" were Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc. But Jordan banned Jews and got rid of "Palestinian" Jews that were there too.

Anyway, that's where most of "Palestine" went.

Israel + West Bank + Gaza is just the remaining 20 percent.

And that's old news. It's 2012 now. And 99 percent of the middle east is outside of Israel. And despite war after war after war from the neighbors against Israel, it's still there, and isn't leaving.

[QUOTE=Dolphin]Because I don't see any plausible fix to the current situation and it has been talked about to death here.....so I'd rather focus on more interesting subjects ie. how the west was dumb enough to think this venture would be a success.[/QUOTE]

For "the West" and the people of Israel "this venture" overall has been a resounding success though. I don't know why you think the originators of this plain would be unhappy with this outcome.

The state of Israel exists. It's the most progressive nation in the Middle East, certainly per capita the strongest nation in the Middle East both economically and militarily and the only unambiguous ally of western civilization in the region.

What's the loss? That a globally tiny group of people is being oppressed and denied freedom? I'm sure the good outweighs the bad for Britain and the United States.

[QUOTE=millwad](Worthless insults and ranting removed)[/QUOTE]

I don't care for either side, but how was what millwad posted an insult and a rant? I just read what you deleted and Nick Young has been posting the same type of way in the whole thread. Talk about supporting your agenda. I think both arguments should be respected.

[QUOTE=JEFFERSON MONEY]as a muslim, i was raised to believe that jews and christians were people of the book.

polygamists (hindus and pagans) were the undesirables

lol wtf?

bet u the ottomon empire, the saracens, the sufis, the sunnis would all despise the muslim brotherhood[/QUOTE]

I always had a hard time respecting Islam.

[QUOTE=LJJ]For "the West" and the people of Israel "this venture" overall has been a resounding success though. I don't know why you think the originators of this plain would be unhappy with this outcome.

The state of Israel exists. It's the most progressive nation in the Middle East, certainly per capita the strongest nation in the Middle East both economically and militarily and the only unambiguous ally of western civilization in the region.

What's the loss? That a globally tiny group of people is being oppressed and denied freedom? I'm sure the good outweighs the bad for Britain and the United States.[/QUOTE]

Oh, from a strategic standpoint it can easily be seen as a success. I'm simply saying that when the state of Israel was being created, the leaders who brokered its creation would not have expected what we have seen in the last week to go on some 60 odd years later.

No one creates a state and says "I will be fine with seemingly unending bloodshed 60 years from now due to the creation of this state."

I think it's actually easy to separate the strategic successes and the failure that we see within the state of Israel (including Palestinian territory).

Israel is a great success for the West in regards to it's geo-political relations with the Arab, Persian, etc. states. Of course I mean how Israel has benefited the West's influence in the region, not that relations between Israel and those states are great.

However, I believe there is failure as well, and that exists within Israel's borders itself along with predominantly the Gaza Strip, but also the West Bank. And this goes back to my original point. That 60 some odd years later, the fact that what we've seen this past week is still going on makes it seem like there's at least a case for the creation of Israel being a failure at least in that sense. And yes, if there was a clear light at the end of the tunnel, I may have a different opinion....but is this going to end anytime soon? I simply can't call two sides so willing to kill innocent people to this day a success story. Logic tells me it's the exact opposite.

...but yes, it is clear some parties have greatly benefited from the creation of the state of Israel.

[QUOTE=Celtics4ever]I don't care for either side, but how was what millwad posted an insult and a rant? I just read what you deleted and Nick Young has been posting the same type of way in the whole thread. Talk about supporting your agenda. I think both arguments should be respected.[/QUOTE]

When Nick Young is the only person taking your side of an argument.... well its probably not the greatest argument.

[QUOTE=Celtics4ever]I don't care for either side, but how was what millwad posted an insult and a rant? I just read what you deleted and Nick Young has been posting the same type of way in the whole thread. Talk about supporting your agenda. I think both arguments should be respected.[/QUOTE]

This is getting beyond silly, Jeff/Steve deletes everything that doesn't fit his agenda but as long as you share his views some what about the situation you can basically write anything.

Nick-Young was trying to misinform people and he also posted terrible and biased "sources" and I only confronted his nonsense and asked for honest and unbiased sources. And my last reply was mainly about the fact that he called me anti-semitic which is just offensive and stupid, he basically played the "jew card" and this is not the first time he has done so, once before he called me a "jew hater" and later he told me he was sorry for his stupidness. He and everyone else are more than welcome to point out where I've been anti-semitic..

Calling someone "anti-semitic" is obviously not offensive according to Jeff/Steve but confronting a poster after he for no reason called me anti-semitic is "offensive"..