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[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]December averages:
Kyrie Irving
27 points on 47+% FG, 38+% 3PT, 95% FT
7 assists
1.3 steals
2.3 turnovers
Age: 21
Russell Westbrook
21.4 points on 45.4% FG, 31.3% 3PT, 88.4% FT
8 assists
1.6 steals
4.1 turnovers
Age: 25
:confusedshrug:
Yeah... that Irving guy stinks.[/QUOTE]
Post their rebounds
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]And Irving has had zero major injuries. :confusedshrug:
Kyrie is only 21 years old. You bring up Lillard... Kyrie is two years younger than him, even.
I think people sometimes forget that there have basically been no finished products at that age. LeBron James was a defensive liability in his first two years in the league.
I'm not saying Kyrie will ever have that kind of impact defensively, but [I][B]all [/B][/I]players have shortcomings at 21.[/QUOTE]
Why is it wrong to bring up lillard? who is almost like kyrie irving but he gets more W than the other guy so whats not to bring up ? Defense is innate kind of thing ... sometimes its not just that .. its more than will... its the "knack" of having it . defense can be develop ? sure.. is it certain maybe ...
Irving may not have a major injury yet but the minor injuries doesnt worry you knowing it may happen every season?:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=veilside23]Why is it wrong to bring up lillard? who is almost like kyrie irving but he gets more W than the other guy so whats not to bring up ? Defense is innate kind of thing ... sometimes its not just that .. its more than will... its the "knack" of having it . defense can be develop ? sure.. is it certain maybe ...
Irving may not have a major injury yet but the minor injuries doesnt worry you knowing it may happen every season?:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
1. Never said there was anything wrong with bringing up Lillard. Just pointing out that, although Lillard came into the league after Irving, he's actually two years older. A lot of people may not realize it. As for the two players being the same except for Lillard "just getting more Ws," that's pretty dumb. Lillard is playing with arguably the best PF in the NBA who is in his absolute prime. The Cavs have the second youngest roster in the entire league, Kyrie is the best player on the team and they have improved quite a bit this season, contrary to popular opinion. Two completely different situations/players/roles. Dumb to even compare them, let alone say they're the same except one guy wins. :oldlol:
2. I can't tell you how ridiculous it is to insinuate that guys can't improve defensively. In fact, that is almost always the last thing that comes with young stars. Very few guys who step into the league as great scorers and playmakers are also great defenders. And, we have seen improvement in Irving defensively over the last two seasons. Those of us who actually watch the games, anyway.
3. He's only been in the league for two seasons. He has yet to miss a really big chunk of time. The question becomes, would you rather have a guy who may sit out every now and then with scrapes and bruises or have a guy who will play a long stretch uninjured, but then suffers a really serious injury? I'd choose the former, personally. Also, as I said, Cavs were really cautious with him in his first two years. This is the first season they're actually trying to do something and he hasn't missed a game. That may not be a coincidence.
[QUOTE=russwest0]Post their rebounds[/QUOTE]
I just copy and pasted Kyrie's stats which I posted in another thread. I didn't include rebounds because his aren't very noteworthy, not because I'm trying to conceal something.
But, here are the complete stats:
[B]Kyrie Irving[/B]
34.1 minutes
27 points on 47+% FG, 38+% 3PT, 95% FT
7 assists
2.3 rebounds
1.3 steals
0.5 blocks
2.3 turnovers
Age: 21
[B]Russell Westbrook[/B]
32.0 minutes
21.4 points on 45.4% FG, 31.3% 3PT, 88.4% FT
8 assists
6.9 rebounds
1.6 steals
0.2 blocks
4.1 turnovers
Age: 25
Like I said, I wouldn't argue that Irving is a better player right now. I'm a fan of Westbrook's game. The four year difference in age is pretty important, though. Westbrook was just in his second year when he was 21. He's now in his 6th season. He really should be a far more complete player, which he is.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/6KG3PSKi1Vk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
[QUOTE=Budadiiii]:roll:
Delusion is such a sad trait to have.[/QUOTE]
Then please stop displaying it before you go full retard....
Kyrie is the clear cut answer.
Kyrie is more polished offensively with better handler etc. but Westbrook is a ruthless and tenacious player that gives his all every game on both ends of the floor...I gotta go with goatbrook..he's my favorite player. I just see westbrook as the type of guy with allen iverson type heart that would will teams with similar talent to more wins than kyrie would.
[QUOTE=Straight_Ballin]Then please stop displaying it before you go full retard....
[B]Kyrie is the clear cut answer[/B].[/QUOTE]
:facepalm
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]I just copy and pasted Kyrie's stats which I posted in another thread. I didn't include rebounds because his aren't very noteworthy, not because I'm trying to conceal something.
But, here are the complete stats:
[B]Kyrie Irving[/B]
34.1 minutes
27 points on 47+% FG, 38+% 3PT, 95% FT
7 assists
2.3 rebounds
1.3 steals
0.5 blocks
2.3 turnovers
Age: 21
[B]Russell Westbrook[/B]
32.0 minutes
21.4 points on 45.4% FG, 31.3% 3PT, 88.4% FT
8 assists
6.9 rebounds
1.6 steals
0.2 blocks
4.1 turnovers
Age: 25
Like I said, I wouldn't argue that Irving is a better player right now. I'm a fan of Westbrook's game. The four year difference in age is pretty important, though. Westbrook was just in his second year when he was 21. He's now in his 6th season. He really should be a far more complete player, which he is.[/QUOTE]
something goes beyond boxscore and excel statsheet,
thats why westbrook is the most important thunder even though durant is the better player
but i would take curry
Kyrie depends on the team to hard hedge a lot to some what hide his shit defense. Westbrook is a better defender and rebounder and If I had to pick between the two right now. I'd take Westbrook...I think he does a better job at making his team mates better also.
i like kyrie but westbrook is the choice here
kyrie is going to mature into a smart player. you can already see it. russ will be russ for the rest of his career. most tenacious player in the league but he's just never going to be a heady point guard who makes the right decisions at the right time.
[QUOTE=RidonKs]kyrie is going to mature into a smart player. you can already see it. russ will be russ for the rest of his career. most tenacious player in the league but he's just never going to be a heady point guard who makes the right decisions at the right time.[/QUOTE]
It's like you've never seen Kyrie play. The kid has no understanding of how to run an offense whatsoever.
[QUOTE=The JKidd Kid]It's like you've never seen Kyrie play. The kid has no understanding of how to run an offense whatsoever.[/QUOTE]
he's a scorer first and foremost. i think it would be a mistake to turn him into a floor general. westbrook is better at organizing an offense and getting guys where they need to be but not at a level out of kyrie's reach. if you're going to build around a scoring point guard, you'll need a combo guard to take off the pressure. like a jarrett jack only worthy of starting minutes. otherwise you aren't taking advantage of your best player's best attributes.
when i say smart, i'm talking about making the right decisions. he's still extremely young but i think he's going to learn to balance out his instincts with his iq. certainly much more than westbrook ever will.
Bump.
Remembered this thread and how absurd some of the earlier posts were.
Westbrook is now getting Top 5 claim at this point in time (I guess there's nothing THAT out of reach), but he was always better to begin with. PG position is loaded, so maybe 1 day Irving could reach that Top 3 PG potential I made ?
Also, interesting enough, Irving has been rumored to want out of Cleveland, but we'll see what happens.
[QUOTE=RRR3]Hilarious thread in retrospect[/QUOTE]
Indeed.
[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Bump.
Remembered this thread and how absurd some of the earlier posts were.
Westbrook is now getting Top 5 claim at this point in time (I guess there's nothing THAT out of reach), but he was always better to begin with. PG position is loaded, so maybe 1 day Irving could reach that Top 3 PG potential I made ?
Also, interesting enough, Irving has been rumored to want out of Cleveland, but we'll see what happens.
Indeed.[/QUOTE]
Irving - 22
Westbrook - 25 (26 this year) with knee injury history
Easy choice Irving 10/10 days.
every year things could flip back and forth for these players
keep this thread in your thoughts and bump it again next year
[QUOTE=noob cake]Irving - 22
Westbrook - 25 (26 this year) with knee injury history
Easy choice Irving 10/10 days.[/QUOTE]
And you would probably get to the lottery 10/10 days too.
At this point, Irving isn't even better than John Wall. Westbrook is Wall on steroids. I would have taken Stephen Curry over him last year and this year and he has a bunch of injuries too in the past. The injury thing doesn't even bother me that much. It's only been 1 season where it's been effecting Russ. It's not like this guy is Wade.
Even Lillard broke out on a team that wasn't even supposed to be in the playoffs in a deep conference.
[QUOTE=rhowen4]every year things could flip back and forth for these players
keep this thread in your thoughts and bump it again next year[/QUOTE]
Off course it does, but I just find it amusing people think this shit isn't close.
Like Irving (from 2013) is head and shoulders above these guys and would be a Top 3 player by now. Turned out there were quiet the number of PG's and players that were better than him this season, which include Russ despite injuries.
both are ballhogs, i would take Irving for his shooting
:roll: :roll:
Silk it's pretty clear who you think is better..
So anytime Silk tries to say KD is on the most stacked team in the league with the best point guard.. Just remind him of this. Literally everything you need to ether this clown for the upcoming season is here.
He even said a Lebron/Kyrie duo >> KD/WB
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]Easily. You get the best player in the NBA and the best shooting PG in the NBA not named Curry/Nash. Not to mention Kyrie is an absolute beast in the 4th quarter.[/QUOTE]
..
And when you see me saying Lebron has a better player beside him than Durant does & anybody tries to say "you're only saying that to discredit Lebron" just take a look at what I was saying in this thread..
Westbrook is better than Kyrie but in the matchups between the two Kyrie has actually gotten the better of Westbrook from what I recall.
Kyrie especially has been an annoying little shit in close 4th quarter games with OKC. He's pretty clutch.
[QUOTE=russwest0]Westbrook is better than Kyrie but in the matchups between the two Kyrie has actually gotten the better of Westbrook from what I recall.
Kyrie especially has been an annoying little shit in close 4th quarter games with OKC. He's pretty clutch.[/QUOTE]
Kyrie has lit up OKC in general when they've played. He's only gone against them four times in his career so far, but amazingly, the Cavs are 3-1 in those four games.
Here are their respective head-to-head numbers:
[B][U]Kyrie Irving[/U][/B]
23.8 points on 50.0% FG, 56.4% 3PT, 84.3% FT
7.3 assists
4.5 rebounds
2.3 steals
0.3 blocks
2.3 turnovers
Age: 22
[B][U]Russell Westbrook [/U][/B]
24.5 points on 52.8% FG, 50.0% 3PT, 87.5% FT
7.0 assists
3.3 rebounds
2.0 steals
0.0 blocks
3.8 turnovers
Age: 25
Both guys have balled pretty hard against one another, but the most surprising number is Irving's 3-1 record against OKC so far.
I will reserve judgement until the season starts, but probably Kyrie as he's simply a better decision maker (neither are great). I'll go with the chucker who's slightly better at it, is younger, and less injury prone
Westbrook is better than Kyrie and it isnt close. Then again, Kyrie could make a jump. But as of right now? Westbrook is a top 5 player, top 10 at worst. Kyrie needs to hit the gym.
Irving. Westbrook plays out of control way too many times. It's his greatest strength and weakness.
[QUOTE=navy]Westbrook is better than Kyrie and it isnt close. Then again, Kyrie could make a jump. But as of right now? Westbrook is a top 5 player, top 10 at worst. Kyrie needs to hit the gym.[/QUOTE]
Kyrie is pretty f#cking good considering his age. :oldlol:
Pretty sure he has hit the gym... quite a bit.
Goatbrook
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]Kyrie is pretty f#cking good considering his age. :oldlol:
Pretty sure he has hit the gym... quite a bit.[/QUOTE]
I think he just meant Irving needs to get better.
[QUOTE=Meticode]I think he just meant Irving needs to get better.[/QUOTE]
And I meant that he's already pretty f#cking good. It seems kind of obvious to point out that a guy should continue to strive to get better. When someone says "he should hit the gym," it generally means that a guy isn't working hard enough. :confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=Meticode]I think he just meant Irving needs to get better.[/QUOTE]
This.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]And I meant that he's already pretty f#cking good. It seems kind of obvious to point out that a guy should continue to strive to get better. When someone says "he should hit the gym," it generally means that a guy isn't working hard enough. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
I know, I know, but he hasn't shown any improvement or barely any since his rookie season.
[QUOTE=Meticode]I know, I know, but he hasn't shown any improve or barely any since his rookie season.[/QUOTE]
That's bullsh!t.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]And I meant that he's already pretty f#cking good.[/QUOTE]
He was alright last year.
Was barely a top 10 point guard.
[QUOTE=KyrieTheFuture]I will reserve judgement until the season starts, but probably Kyrie as he's simply a better decision maker (neither are great). I'll go with the chucker who's slightly better at it, is younger, and less injury prone[/QUOTE]
This post fails on so many levels.
[QUOTE=navy]He was alright last year.
Was barely a top 10 point guard.[/QUOTE]
Meh, I doubt there were many PGs in the NBA that received the kind of defensive attention as Kyrie did last year. And, that matters. When teams are gameplanning to stop you every night, it can wear you down over an 82-game season, especially as a 21-year-old who was playing over 70 games for the first time in his career.
Then, there's the fact that he was the youngest starting point guard in the entire NBA. No one is saying he is a finished product, but how many 21-year-olds are? Especially on a team that was in disarray for much of the year.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]Meh, I doubt there were many PGs in the NBA that received the kind of defensive attention as Kyrie did last year. And, that matters. When teams are gameplanning to stop you every night, it can wear you down over an 82-game season, especially as a 21-year-old who was playing over 70 games for the first time in his career.
Then, there's the fact that he was the youngest starting point guard in the entire NBA. No one is saying he is a finished product, but how many 21-year-olds are? Especially on a team that was in disarray for much of the year.[/QUOTE]
More defensive attention, but also more opportunities to put up stats. He played horrible defense and was by no means a leader on the court or in the lockerrom. But like I said, he's young. Maybe he makes a jump next year.
[QUOTE=navy]More defensive attention, but also more opportunities to put up stats. He played horrible defense and was by no means a leader on the court or in the lockerrom. But like I said, he's young. Maybe he makes a jump next year.[/QUOTE]
His defense was actually better last year than his first two years. He still has a ways to go, but his effort improved. It even showed up marginally on his advanced defensive metrics.
Also, his assist-to-turnover ratio improved dramatically.
Last, one of the biggest criticisms in his first two years was that he couldn't stay healthy. Well, he played over 70 games last year, which was a nice sign in its own right.
He didn't have a "great" season, but it also wasn't exactly bad and he improved in most of the areas people complained about for his first two years (durability, playmaking, defense).
The biggest "disappointment" was his scoring efficiency, which was ironically one of his greatest strengths in his first two years. I think he'll be fine. Just growing pains for a young, talented player. It also won't hurt to have guys on the floor with him who actually command some defensive attention.