LeBron James right now is the best player of all time

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
Some may point out Lebron entered the league at 19 while Jordan did so at 21 and therefore Lebron has an extra two years so comparing them at age 27 is unfair. I disagree. First, the extra two years only help Lebron in terms of career statistical totals. It doesn't help him in terms of accolades. All he did in his first two seasons was make the all-NBA second team once.[/QUOTE]
Of course you would disagree. If you compare the two after their 9 seasons in the pros Lebron doesn't really have a case. In the 10th season, one is trying to defend his first ring while the other was already retired as the best player of all time with nothing to challenge himself with.

[QUOTE=jrong]This is your brain.



This is your brain on basketball knowledge.

Scoring: MJ
Penetration: MJ
Post: MJ
Jumpshot: MJ
Open-court: Push
Finishing: Push
Offensive repertoire: MJ
Passing: LJ
Rebounding: LJ
Offensive rebounding: MJ
Defensive rebounding: LJ
Defense: MJ
On-ball defense (perimeter): MJ
On-ball defense (post): MJ
Off-ball defense: MJ
Team defense: LJ
Steals: MJ
Blocks: MJ
Shooting: MJ
Mid-range: MJ
Three-point: LJ
Free-throws: MJ
Handles: MJ
Efficiency: Push
Clutch: MJ
Mental game: MJ
B-ball I.Q.: Push
Better teammate: LJ
Leadership: MJ

Any questions?[/QUOTE]

Too bad that's not how we judge players and Lebron is better in the open court.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Oh look, it's the Jordan hater Roundball Rock - say hi, everyone!

lol @ comparing them by age when Lebron has had 3 more seasons than MJ to accomplish what he did through the same age. 2 years plus the basically full season MJ missed in '86.



And, you know, get acclimated to playing at the NBA level. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

So you're blaming Lebron for longevity and the fact he was good enough to play in the NBA at a younger age? If anything its a positive. Bron is more accomplished at a younger age.

[QUOTE=plowking]So you're blaming Lebron for longevity and the fact he was good enough to play in the NBA at a younger age? If anything its a positive. Bron is more accomplished at a younger age.[/QUOTE]

He also has way more failures and instances of poor/sub-par play than Jordan had, especially in the playoffs.

I'm not blaming him for anything, only noting that comparing players by age when one had 2-3 more years to amass accomplishments is disingenuous.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]He also has way more failures and instances of poor/sub-par play than Jordan had, especially in the playoffs.

I'm not blaming him for anything, only noting that comparing players by age when one had 2-3 more years to amass accomplishments is disingenuous.[/QUOTE]
that word is too big for ish

[QUOTE=Just2McFly]Too bad that's not how we judge players and Lebron is better in the open court.[/QUOTE]

Maybe its just me ...

But, when it comes to these players - guys who provide similar and/or equal impact to their teams' success, breaking down their skill-set is an acceptable way to rank (and "judge") them.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Maybe its just me ...

But, when it comes to these players - guys who provide similar and/or equal impact to their teams' success, breaking down their skill-set is an acceptable way to rank (and "judge") them.[/QUOTE]
To me it seems stupid. The difference between them in so many of these categories are hair thin. Lebron has been playing amazing defense the past 5 years or so and the past so just saying " Defense: MJ" doesn't mean jack shit.

It doesn't show the whole picutre, plus it goes too far into irrelevant categories. Free throw shooting? Seriously.

Like would a Lebron fan, not troll but fan, use ft shooting as evidence to why Lebron's career is on the same level or greater than Shaq's?

No.

We all know Jordan's career is better at the moment. As players, they are completely different but can you say that Jordan impacts the game on a different level than Lebron?

That's the question here.

[QUOTE=28renyoy]LOL @ this. If OKC won the title last year, he wouldn't Ben be considered the best player in the league, Durant would be.[/QUOTE]

If the Jazz beat the Bulls in '98, Michael wouldn't have been as great as we all know he is.

If LAL beat the Celtics in '08, the Lakers would have 17 banners and Celts would have 16; plus, the Big 3 would've been a failed project.

If David Robinson didn't score 70+ pts against the Clippers, Shaq would have won that scoring title.

If ... Blah, blah. I can't believe anyone would argue a point by using a "if this happened, that wouldn't have happened" statement. So retarded.



And for the record, I'm not defending the OP. I think LBJ is the best currently, but all-time? Not even close.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]He also has way more failures and instances of poor/sub-par play than Jordan had, especially in the playoffs.

I'm not blaming him for anything, only noting that comparing players by age when one had 2-3 more years to amass accomplishments is disingenuous.[/QUOTE]

Once again you're counting his finals appearance with San Antonio as a negative when the fact is, his team was no where near good enough and shouldn't have been there in the first place.
You don't make the finals due to poor play, and Lebron has already been in 3 of them. That is a positive, and always will be one. If Lebron goes on to win the same amount of championships as MJ, how in the world can we consider MJ the more successful one when he hasn't reached the finals as many times, and instead failed earlier?

[QUOTE=plowking]Once again you're counting his finals appearance with San Antonio as a negative when the fact is, his team was no where near good enough and shouldn't have been there in the first place. [/QUOTE]

Yes, I do count instances of poor play as...instances of poor play. It's calling a spade a spade. It was great that he reached the Finals, but to lay an egg the way he did in that and other series is something you never saw from Jordan pre-retirement. period.

Come on...LeBron's had to beat like 2 legit teams in to get to those 3 Finals from the Leastern Conference...and 2 of those runs came with a "super team"

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Yes, I do count instances of poor play as...instances of poor play. It's calling a spade a spade. It was great that he reached the Finals, but to lay an egg the way he did in that and other series is something you never saw from Jordan pre-retirement. period.[/QUOTE]

LOL at Jordan not having poor series'.

Much of what are considered poor series for Lebron, due to how certain things played out, happened the same for Jordan. I know for a fact earlier in Jordan's career he had multiple close out games where he played terribly, much like what Lebron is criticized for.

[QUOTE=Just2McFly]To me it seems stupid. The difference between them in so many of these categories are hair thin. Lebron has been playing amazing defense the past 5 years or so and the past so just saying " Defense: MJ" doesn't mean jack shit.

It doesn't show the whole picutre, plus it goes too far into irrelevant categories. Free throw shooting? Seriously.

Like would a Lebron fan, not troll but fan, use ft shooting as evidence to why Lebron's career is on the same level or greater than Shaq's?

No.

We all know Jordan's career is better at the moment. As players, they are completely different but can you say that Jordan impacts the game on a different level than Lebron?

That's the question here.[/QUOTE]

To each his own I guess.

I know if I had to choose between a set of players (Lebron/Shaq/MJ for instance), guys who I'd want to start a team with, Shaq's FT shooting WOULD be a knock on him; something I WOULD need to evaluate when starting said franchise.

No one sane would debate their careers, as players, in their primes, Lebron's impact is definitely up there w/ Jordan's. Definitely in the same tier.

[QUOTE=plowking]LOL at Jordan not having poor series'.

Much of what are considered poor series for Lebron, due to how certain things played out, happened the same for Jordan. I know for a fact earlier in Jordan's career he had multiple close out games where he played terribly, much like what Lebron is criticized for.[/QUOTE]

jordan choked for years. it wasn't just his teams.

whenever you compare any player to MJ, you can only do it by comparing results.

6 rings, two 3-peats, 10 scoring titles, DPOY.

is lebron (or anyone) even close to this resume??

[QUOTE=DCL]whenever you compare any player to MJ, you can only do it by comparing results.

6 rings, two 3-peats, 10 scoring titles, DPOY.

is lebron (or anyone) even close to this resume??[/QUOTE]

6 rings: team accomplishment
Two 3-peats: team accomplishment
10 scoring titles: Jordan is a better scorer, everybody knows that, but only this doesn't make him the best player.
DPOY: Nobody in his right mind would use this award for measure defensive skills.

[QUOTE=plowking]LOL at Jordan not having poor series'.

Much of what are considered poor series for Lebron, due to how certain things played out, happened the same for Jordan. I know for a fact earlier in Jordan's career he had multiple close out games where he played terribly, much like what Lebron is criticized for.[/QUOTE]

Don't try to argue Jordan history with people who know it inside and out and are presumably older than yourself like Oldschool and myself. MJ had exactly one playoff series that could be considered an individual failure, and it was in the first round, as opposed to LeBron's four, two of which were in the Finals and two of which were against the big-3 era Celtics.

Just because LeBron is on the team now you don't have to lose all sense of rational perspective about him. He'll probably be gone after next year anyway.

[QUOTE=plowking]LOL at Jordan not having poor series'.

Much of what are considered poor series for Lebron, due to how certain things played out, happened the same for Jordan. I know for a fact earlier in Jordan's career he had multiple close out games where he played terribly, much like what Lebron is criticized for.[/QUOTE]

Show me the poor series Jordan had prior to retirement in '93 and then I'll show you Lebron's. In addition, Jordan has never, EVER played as poorly and passively as Lebron did in the '11 Finals - that was an embarrassment. It almost singlehandedly precludes him from ever being considered the GOAT - that's how bad it was.

[QUOTE=Ne 1]Where do you currently have him ranked? Right now all-time I'd say he's in the same tier as Moses/West/Oscar/Dr. J/KG[/QUOTE]

I agree with the set of players you have him listed with right there, as of right now.

Obviously in no particular order it's Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe in the top 9. Then comes the second tier of players like you listed, and Lebron is in that group. Right at this moment he's in the teens somewhere in my opinion, but that top 10 isn't something you can crack by just putting up more stats.

Honestly for Lebron to rise heavily, I think he needs to win some championships with a squad that isn't so stacked at some point while he's still in his prime. Not sure if that means Dwyane Wade leaving Miami or Lebron going back to Cleveland to lead a young team but I think at some point a serious change is going to be made and Lebron is going to have to prove he can win despite that, with less talent around him IMO.

I'm sure this is the kind of hysteria + amnesia that Lebron was hoping for in 2010.

Let Reggie remind you all:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JskyovzAyiA&t=2m37s[/url]

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Show me the poor series Jordan had prior to retirement in '93 and then I'll show you Lebron's. In addition, Jordan has never, EVER played as poorly and passively as Lebron did in the '11 Finals - that was an embarrassment. It almost singlehandedly precludes him from ever being considered the GOAT - that's how bad it was.[/QUOTE]

This, funny how soon people forget Lebrons epic choke jobs just because he won last year:oldlol:

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]lol @ comparing them by age when Lebron has had 3 more seasons than MJ to accomplish what he did through the same age. 2 years plus the basically full season MJ missed in '86.[/QUOTE]

Irrelevant. Lebron has a small advantage in this regard because he entered the league earlier--although it does hurt his career averages. At the end of the day players will be compared on their accomplishments and thus far Lebron has achieved more than Jordan and he has a significant advantage going forward in that Lebron won't lose his motivation to play basketball for 2 years of his prime like Jordan did.

:oldlol: at how only in MJ's case versus Lebron is seasons played invoked. This is never done when MJ is compared with Magic, who had his career cut short by disease fresh off being MVP runner-up, or Bird who had his prime cut short by injury.

[QUOTE]If you compare the two after their 9 seasons in the pros Lebron doesn't really have a case. [/QUOTE]

:oldlol: at invoking 19 and 20 year old Lebron and placing his 9 seasons in comparison with Jordan's at face value. What was Jordan doing at 19 and 20? Jordan at 21 did not impact his team as much as Lebron at 19.

What did Jordan achieve at ages 30 and 31? Nothing. He played a grand total of 17 regular season games and got bounced in the second round in one of those seasons. Lebron will be adding to his legacy during those years. If Lebron and Jordan are close through age 27 that implies Lebron has an excellent chance to finish well ahead of him in accolades. Jordan simply didn't have the motivation to play at an elite level year after year like a Kareem did. If Lebron continues at his present level and plays as long as he can he could have a sizable advantage over Jordan in individual achievements. The big question is how many rings will Lebron end up with? He already has 3 MVP's so it is easy to see him matching or exceeding Jordan's 5 (which isn't the record--6 by Kareem is--but people tend to use Jordan's 5 as the benchmark nonetheless).

[QUOTE]Yes, I do count instances of poor play as...instances of poor play. It's calling a spade a spade. [/QUOTE]

You can't have it both ways on age. If you are going to discredit some of Lebron's achievements due to his early entry into the league you have to devalue some of his shortcomings that are linked to age. Lebron was 22 and he overachieved to carry scrubs to the finals in the first place. Jordan, meanwhile, did not even win a playoff series until he was 24 (1-9 in playoffs in his first three seasons) and even that year he promptly was dismissed 4-1 in the second round.

[QUOTE]6 rings, two 3-peats, 10 scoring titles, DPOY.

is lebron (or anyone) even close to this resume??[/QUOTE]

Yes, Lebron for one is on pace to finish with a better resume than Jordan. Can he keep it up? Time will tell but Lebron at 27 clearly has achieved more than Jordan at 27, and as noted previously, Jordan achieved absolutely nothing in two of his prime years because he lost his motivation to play, let alone play at an elite level.

Jordan has 10 scoring titles because he led the league in FGA perennially. Even at age 38 MJ was 2nd in the league in FGA per game. Lebron not being a ball hog is one reason he elevates his teammates in a way Jordan does not.

yeah, Jordan never had a bad game or series. :roll: Remember this 14 pager? [url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136345[/url]

[QUOTE=Sakkreth]It's not like Timmy is in same question as Kobe, not sure if Kobe is top 10 and Duncan is easily and there is no question LeBron lands in top 10, question is where in top 10.[/QUOTE]

I rather rank a 2nd option top 10 than a cheater. Lebron needs at least 8 rings to be compared to jordan. His rings value are just 0.5 because he cheated but 8 rings is enough.

[QUOTE=knicksman]

I rather rank a 2nd option top 10 than a cheater. Lebron needs at least 8 rings to be compared to jordan. His rings value are just 0.5 because he cheated but 8 rings is enough.[/QUOTE]

Poor knicksfan still butthurt he chose Miami over New York as a free agent


[IMG]http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s647/MiamiDpctures/Wadeyoumad_zpsdbd27f22.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Hank]Poor knicksfan still butthurt he chose Miami over New York as a free agent


[IMG]http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s647/MiamiDpctures/Wadeyoumad_zpsdbd27f22.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Aren't you like 40 years old? Posting u mad pics? Fkn sad...
Why don't u post that pic of your fat bandwagon family again:lol

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]:wtf:

Lebron came straight out of high school and elevated a 17 win team to 35 wins; Jordan came out of UNC and elevated a 27 win team to only 38 wins. The only losing season Lebron has ever had was his first year when he was fresh out of high school; Jordan recorded 5 losing seasons. Lebron reached the finals with scrubs in 2007 yet he had no impact? Cleveland has been a joke since Lebron left.[/QUOTE]

As I said, lebron impacts more on a bad team but jordan, magic impacts more on teams with talent. Jordan was a statpadder early in his career too thats why hes losing.

[QUOTE]Jordan's impact on teammates? The year after he retired the first time most players who were on both the 1993 and 1994 teams saw their field goal percentages improve. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

What im saying is the assists. Pippens numbers dropped which means that his playmaking really is maximized with jordan whereas wades impact is diminished. Thats what differs magic/jordan who are considered GOATS coz they dont statpad. They concentrate on their roles rather than be all around. Jordan too averaged triple doubles but he realized its not a winning formula. So to say, that lebron is better because he averaged triple doubles is false. Jordan cared more about winning than stats and so they shouldnt be penalized for sacrificing stats.

I guess lebron/oscar is better than russell/magic/duncan/shaq coz they too cared about winning than stats. Once lebron sacrifice his stats, thats when he get exposed. He becomes a scorer And thats when you realize hes not as elite of a scorer as Jordan, Durant. And if he chose to be a playmaker, hes not as good as magic/cp3. And those guys are more impactful than lebron. It may not show on stats but thats because they cared more about winning. And so it only shows on the win totals. Cp3 already made his team contender in his 3rd year while lebron hasnt. The same with durant while lebron only lucky to be in the east thats why hes in the finals. But I dont consider that team to be contenders. Its a first round exit or would not even make it to the playoffs if its in the west.

[QUOTE]If Jordan is who you consider your GOAT, well, let's compare Lebron and Jordan through age 27 (it wouldn't be fair to include this season since we don't know if Lebron will win another ring or MVP yet).

Rings: Lebron 1, Jordan 1
NBA finals: Lebron 3, Jordan 1
MVP's: Lebron 3, Jordan 2
DPOY: Jordan 1, Lebron 0
All-NBA first team: Lebron 7, Jordan 5
Losing records: Jordan 3, Lebron 1
Best record in the NBA: Lebron 2, Jordan 0

Lebron definitely is on pace to surpass MJ. Whether that is sustainable is a question only time can tell but the notion that comparing them is absurd is itself absurd since Lebron at this point is ahead of where Jordan was. Lebron could have 4 MVP's and 2 championships by the age of 28.

Keep in mind Jordan achieved no accolades when he was 30
and 31. Unless Lebron too decides to bail on his team a month before the regular season, Lebron will have two years of his prime to achieve important things that Jordan lacked the motivation to do. Lebron could have something like 4-5 MVP's and 2-3 rings by the time he is 31.

Some may point out Lebron entered the league at 19 while Jordan did so at 21 and therefore Lebron has an extra two years so comparing them at age 27 is unfair. I disagree. First, the extra two years only help Lebron in terms of career statistical totals. It doesn't help him in terms of accolades. All he did in his first two seasons was make the all-NBA second team once.[/QUOTE]

Lebron is only on pace of beating jordan because he cheated. Had he not cheated, he would still be ringless while collecting 4-5 mvps. He needs to have at least 8 rings to beat jordan. Jordan only needed a pippen whos not even better than bosh. Thats how great jordan is, while lebron choked in his 2nd finals appearance.

LMAO at this mad Knickerbockers fan:roll: Resorting to childish "cheating" argument when logic fails him oh so hard? Dayum, that's so salty and bitter:lol

[QUOTE=crisoner]No

career wise he would need at least 3.
He got Kobe on regular season MVP's but titles are what shape somebody's career at the end.

And Jordan going 6 for 6 is untouchable for LeBron.
Again Career wise.[/QUOTE]


No player is better now ever than LeBron, and in the future for generations it's not about the rings.

[QUOTE=jrong]Don't try to argue Jordan history with people who know it inside and out and are presumably older than yourself like Oldschool and myself. MJ had exactly one playoff series that could be considered an individual failure, and it was in the first round, as opposed to LeBron's four, two of which were in the Finals and two of which were against the big-3 era Celtics.

Just because LeBron is on the team now you don't have to lose all sense of rational perspective about him. He'll probably be gone after next year anyway.[/QUOTE]

You might be older, and if you are, it surprises me at how shitty your memory is, or better yet, how much bias you hold. You're just as bad as pauk, except you hold on to the hope Wade will somehow start outshining Lebron on the team, even if it means the Heat losing. Basically, you're an idiot, and it became apparent once Lebron joined the Heat.


[QUOTE=OldSchoolBball]Show me the poor series Jordan had prior to retirement in '93 and then I'll show you Lebron's. In addition, Jordan has never, EVER played as poorly and passively as Lebron did in the '11 Finals - that was an embarrassment. It almost singlehandedly precludes him from ever being considered the GOAT - that's how bad it was.[/QUOTE]

See you put up ultimatums immediately to prevent him of having any chance of being the GOAT. What if he wins the next 5 championships? A single event doesn't prevent anything.

Lets take a look at Lebron's bad series shall we. The one against San Antonio in 06-07 season... Hes 22. Jordan hadn't won a single playoff game at this point in his career, Lebron has made it to the finals. If you're going to take away the fact that Lebron has had more time to achieve certain things due to age, take away his failures too. Can't have it both ways. If anything, this is a positive. Reaching the finals with the team he had? Amazing.

Boston in 07-08. Even through his terrible play (if 27, 6 and 8 is terrible, although on 36% shooting) they took the championship favorites to seven games... Lebron did everything in his power to win as well in an amazing close out game with 45-5-6. Yes he played poorly, but at least he showed up in the close out game. A bad series none the less.

09-10 against the Celtics again. Statistically this series is fine, but apparently he quit on his team... There is no proof of that, so you can't really justify calling 27-9-7 on 45% shooting a bad series. For the sake of this argument, we will, as it is considered so.

Then you have the 11' finals... No explanation needed, he played poorly.

Are we going to count the 87 playoffs as poor for Jordan? Shot 30% in the elimination game and 41.6% for the series. Might as well since Lebron shooting 45% is considered a poor series by fans today for Lebron.

Are we going to count the 89 playoffs for Jordan as a bad series against the Pistons? Where he shot 46% and had 30ppg, but you have to remember, he only took 8 shots on his team, and there was media scrutiny at the time, not as big as Lebron got now, due to the media era we live in, but you have to count that as quitting on your team, don't you?

In his first 3 years in the 3 elimination games where Jordan got kicked out of the playoffs, he shot 36%. In his first 4 years, he shot 38% in those 4 games. 5 years, its 41%. Pretty average for someone considered a clutch god, and who always stepped up. In fact, way below average.
Lebron at least has a history of stepping it up in the last game. Got a triple double in the series against Boston in 09-10. A 27/19/10 triple double. 45/6/5 in the poor series against Boston in 07-08.

[QUOTE=Just2McFly]As players, they are completely different but can you say that Jordan impacts the game on a different level than Lebron?

That's the question here.[/QUOTE]

The answer to the question is a yes from me.

lebron will never be goat so you can end all the useless arguing right now. has to win at least 5

We did it boys

Can someone ban this loser?

LeFraud makes this board and the sport garbage

[QUOTE=ZionDunks;14312463]LeFraud makes this board and the sport garbage[/QUOTE]

You are a garbage poster who never touch a basketball in his entire life. Just go away and stop posting in this forum.