Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

[QUOTE=Calabis]Don't need to spin shit sir!!!

Armstrong assist to Hansen for 3 points

Hansen pass to King flag foul by Drexler..free throws

Pippen scores on post up

King fouled free throws

Hansen to Pip, post up turn around

Missed shot rebound Armstrong, dribbles out hits turn around

Pip to King, backs up Williams, who flops, hits turn around

All this with Blazers imploding on offense..Bulls within 3

Jordan now enters game after Blazers timeout

Pippen catches them napping drives in for a lay-up

Jordan drives floater over Cliff

Pippen hits 3 with shot clock running down, nice shot... ties game at 85

Jordan hits tough jumper falling to right(87-87)

Jordan steal dunk(89-87)

Pippen jumper from free throw line (91-89)

Jordan fadeaway (93-91)

Jordan dribble up the court, blows by Drexler lay-up (95-91) (35 seconds)

Pippen dumb foul, gives free throws (95-93)

Jordan fouled intentionally free throws(97-93) 11.8 seconds left

ball game

Pippen played a damn good game but u talk about it like he went on a one man tear...in the time Jordan/Grant are on the bench, King scores 6 points, Pippen 4 points......Jordan enters and scores 12 points, Pippen 7.....Jordan outscores Pippen 12-11 in fourth quarter[/QUOTE]
Lol I dont believe youre trivializing what Pippen did in that fourth quarter. Factor in Pippens defense on Drexler. He tied the game twice, and the go ahead basket. Youve hit a new low. So now, Pippen has to score a certain amount of pts within a few minutes?

Bottom line. Pippen scored 11 pts in that fourth quarter, shut down Drexler, and ran their offense to perfection.

[QUOTE=guy]:oldlol: it's comments like this that make him very overrated.[/QUOTE]
Totally overlooked his comment. He said "ONE CAN ARGUE IT". A case can be made that Pippen was the most important when you factor in his contribution to the team. Now that doesnt make him better than Jordan, but his responsibility and workload was no less.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Totally overlooked his comment. He said "ONE CAN ARGUE IT". A case can be made that Pippen was the most important when you factor in his contribution to the team. Now that doesnt make him better than Jordan, but his responsibility and workload was no less.[/QUOTE]

That's just a politically correct way of saying "I think Pippen was basically as good as Jordan".

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Totally overlooked his comment. He said "ONE CAN ARGUE IT". A case can be made that Pippen was the most important when you factor in his contribution to the team. Now that doesnt make him better than Jordan, but his responsibility and workload was no less.[/QUOTE]

No I didn't overlook anything. Even saying its an argument is one of the dumbest claims posters make around here. It's one thing if there was another player similar to Jordan on the team I.e. you can say Bosh is more important then Wade even though he's not better, but that's not the case.. If you had to go back in time and had to give up one or the other, theres no coach, GM, owner, player or analyst that doesn't have some personal favoritism toward Pippen that would even think about taking Pippen over Jordan.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]That's just a politically correct way of saying "I think Pippen was basically as good as Jordan".[/QUOTE]

Exactly.

[QUOTE=PJR]Wade led his team out the first round his ROOKIE year, idiot.

[url]http://youtu.be/S-Op-CdfiOI[/url]


Phil would NEVER call for the ball to be in Toni Kukoc's hands if Wade was his go to guy, I know that much...:roll:[/QUOTE]

Butler, Odom, and Eddie Jones? :biggums:

[QUOTE=guy]No I didn't overlook anything. Even saying its an argument is one of the dumbest claims posters make around here. It's one thing if there was another player similar to Jordan on the team I.e. you can say Bosh is more important then Wade even though he's not better, but that's not the case.. If you had to go back in time and had to give up one or the other, theres no coach, GM, owner, player or analyst that doesn't have some personal favoritism toward Pippen that would even think about taking Pippen over Jordan.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely. But you arent winning with either having to carry a huge workload. Id like to ask you. What were their roles on the team? In yoir opinion

[QUOTE=PJR]Wade led his team out the first round his ROOKIE year, idiot.

[url]http://youtu.be/S-Op-CdfiOI[/url]


Phil would NEVER call for the ball to be in Toni Kukoc's hands if Wade was his go to guy, I know that much...:roll:[/QUOTE]
I dont know about that. considering the situation. There wasnt gonna be enough time tk catch the ball and iso. Id have more faith in Kukocs jumpshot over either Pippens or Wades.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]That's just a politically correct way of saying "I think Pippen was basically as good as Jordan".[/QUOTE]
If thats the case then I vehemently disagree

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Absolutely. But you arent winning with either having to carry a huge workload. Id like to ask you. What were their roles on the team? In yoir opinion[/QUOTE]

Who said they didn't need Pippen to carry a significant workload to win? That doesn't mean there was an argument between who was more important. The fact that we are even having discussions about this makes him overrated.

They both did pretty much everything with Pippen taking a bit more of a role in facilitating and arguably defense (specifically in the 2nd three-peat) and Jordan taking a much larger role scoring especially at the end of games. And Pippen taking a larger role in certain aspects doesn't necessarily mean he was actually better at those aspects, but more because Jordan taking more of a role in everything would not have been an efficient strategy when there were other alternatives so he could focus more on aspects there weren't alternatives for such as scoring cause he was by far their best option.

They both took different leadership approaches, Jordan being aggressive and Pippen being passive. And when the team was in a slump, needed a big game in a playoff series, or just needed to send a message or intimidate an opponent with his play, they looked to Jordan.

[QUOTE=Calabis]Nah very similar, Scottie better defender, Cylde better scorer[/QUOTE]



To be honest, it's not even really that close. Drexler is the better scorer. Pippen wouldn't have put up those scoring numbers, tho he'd have averaged more than he did. But he would have had more assists and his assists don't do justice to his playmaking and his passing. The guy was a PG.

[B][SIZE="4"]1993 NBA Finals, Game 6 @ Phoenix.

The ultimate Pippen "choke" in Clutch game.

Coach Westphal pointing to Pippen [U]giving the "chokeing sign of Miller"[/U] in Clutch 4th quarter crunch time. classic. :applause:

1993 MVP Barkley pointing to Pippen with [U]"chokeing sign of Miller"[/U] in clutch 4th quarter crunch time....another Classic . :applause:

Pippen responsible for 24 secs Shot Clock violation....TWICE.[/SIZE][/B]


[B][SIZE="3"]GOAT enters the game after the rest.....

Bulls score the lowest 4th Quarter total in NBA Finals History....12 Pts.

Jordan scores the "ULTRA CLUTCH" 9 pts out of 12 pts....

Paxon hits the Game winning 3 pointer....

Rest is History

Pippen choked away 2 crucial 4th quarter TURNOVER giving SUNS a 4 pts lead with 4 mins left the game!!

Pippen scored ZERO out of possible 12 pts of 4th Quarter

Pippen still won the Game 6 of NBA Finals ON THE ROAD...

...as usual, GOAT saved Pippen's sorry little si$$y choking ar$e & made him a champ again.

case closed.[/SIZE][/B]

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Lol I dont believe youre trivializing what Pippen did in that fourth quarter. Factor in Pippens defense on Drexler. He tied the game twice, and the go ahead basket. Youve hit a new low. So now, Pippen has to score a certain amount of pts within a few minutes?

Bottom line. Pippen scored 11 pts in that fourth quarter, shut down Drexler, and ran their offense to perfection.[/QUOTE]

:facepalm

Dude you need to watch the damn game, Drexler was off the entire game, they just imploded as a team in the 4th and when Jordan re entered, guess who guarded Drexler?...and reference trivializing what Pippen did....according to you [B]he dominated[/B], when the fact he didn't, he was damn good, but so was Jordan who came through down the stretch.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]That's just a politically correct way of saying "I think Pippen was basically as good as Jordan".[/QUOTE]

:applause:

he's already put him on Magic and Birds level

One CANNOT argue that Pippen was the most important player during their 6 title runs over Jordan.

It's not arguable, whatsoever. Come on... He was the second most important player, no doubt, but you stretch him to the overrated line by saying he was the most important player.

[QUOTE=gengiskhan][B][SIZE="4"]1993 NBA Finals, Game 6 @ Phoenix.

The ultimate Pippen "choke" in Clutch game.

Coach Westphal pointing to Pippen [U]giving the "chokeing sign of Miller"[/U] in Clutch 4th quarter crunch time. classic. :applause:

1993 MVP Barkley pointing to Pippen with [U]"chokeing sign of Miller"[/U] in clutch 4th quarter crunch time....another Classic . :applause:

Pippen responsible for 24 secs Shot Clock violation....TWICE.[/SIZE][/B]


[B][SIZE="3"]GOAT enters the game after the rest.....

Bulls score the lowest 4th Quarter total in NBA Finals History....12 Pts.

Jordan scores the "ULTRA CLUTCH" 9 pts out of 12 pts....

Paxon hits the Game winning 3 pointer....

Rest is History

Pippen choked away 2 crucial 4th quarter TURNOVER giving SUNS a 4 pts lead with 4 mins left the game!!

Pippen scored ZERO out of possible 12 pts of 4th Quarter

Pippen still won the Game 6 of NBA Finals ON THE ROAD...

...as usual, GOAT saved Pippen's sorry little si$$y choking ar$e & made him a champ again.

case closed.[/SIZE][/B][/QUOTE]

Eh, the Bulls aren't even in the Finals without Pippen's play. With the Bulls down 0-2 in the ECF and the Knicks looking for the knockout punch in Game 3 Jordan didn't exactly have a stellar shooting game but his team picked it up...Pippen in particular. Same goes for the closeout Game 6 against the Knicks where Jordan couldn't hit the broad side of a barn while Pippen was hitting the daggers down the stretch to send the Knicks home. That's why you have two stars on the team. One to pick up the slack when the other is struggling.

[QUOTE=gengiskhan][B][SIZE="4"]1993 NBA Finals, Game 6 @ Phoenix.

The ultimate Pippen "choke" in Clutch game.

Coach Westphal pointing to Pippen [U]giving the "chokeing sign of Miller"[/U] in Clutch 4th quarter crunch time. classic. :applause:

1993 MVP Barkley pointing to Pippen with [U]"chokeing sign of Miller"[/U] in clutch 4th quarter crunch time....another Classic . :applause:

Pippen responsible for 24 secs Shot Clock violation....TWICE.[/SIZE][/B]


[B][SIZE="3"]GOAT enters the game after the rest.....

Bulls score the lowest 4th Quarter total in NBA Finals History....12 Pts.

Jordan scores the "ULTRA CLUTCH" 9 pts out of 12 pts....

Paxon hits the Game winning 3 pointer....

Rest is History

Pippen choked away 2 crucial 4th quarter TURNOVER giving SUNS a 4 pts lead with 4 mins left the game!!

Pippen scored ZERO out of possible 12 pts of 4th Quarter

Pippen still won the Game 6 of NBA Finals ON THE ROAD...

...as usual, GOAT saved Pippen's sorry little si$$y choking ar$e & made him a champ again.

case closed.[/SIZE][/B][/QUOTE]
I hate Jordan fans like you Ghengis. I find myself having to diminish Jordans greatness to prove a point. In that game six, in the span youre refering to, Jordan was 3/15. Pippen only took two shots. Grant took 2, and Paxson hit the game winner. THEY ALL SHOT BAD. It wasnt as if Jordan went 12/15 or something. I remember my friend pointing this out to me. He litterally looked like Kobe out there. He wasnt even looking to pass the ball. It was their defense that won that game for them.

I dont remember Westphal or Barkley doing that, but even if they did, Pippen has almost as many Rings as they have fingers to wrap around their throat. One of them at the expense of those two. So who gives a shit

[QUOTE=hitmanyr2k]Eh, the Bulls aren't even in the Finals without Pippen's play. With the Bulls down 0-2 in the ECF and the Knicks looking for the knockout punch in Game 3 Jordan didn't exactly have a stellar shooting game but his team picked it up...Pippen in particular. Same goes for the closeout Game 6 against the Knicks where Jordan couldn't hit the broad side of a barn while Pippen was hitting the daggers down the stretch to send the Knicks home. That's why you have two stars on the team. One to pick up the slack when the other is struggling.[/QUOTE]
Or game 2 in 91. When Jordan got into foul trouble I almost died. Pippens defense was spectacular that game. And basically, it saved Jordan from having to defend him.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]I hate Jordan fans like you Ghengis. I find myself having to diminish Jordans greatness to prove a point. In that game six, in the span youre refering to, Jordan was 3/15. Pippen only took two shots. Grant took 2, and Paxson hit the game winner. THEY ALL SHOT BAD. It wasnt as if Jordan went 12/15 or something. I remember my friend pointing this out to me. He litterally looked like Kobe out there. He wasnt even looking to pass the ball. It was their defense that won that game for them.

I dont remember Westphal or Barkley doing that, but even if they did, Pippen has almost as many Rings as they have fingers to wrap around their throat. One of them at the expense of those two. So who gives a shit[/QUOTE]

You are just as bad as he is to be honest, both of you go to ridiculous extremes to diminish each player, you just type it better.

[QUOTE=Leviathon1121]You are just as bad as he is to be honest, both of you go to ridiculous extremes to diminish each player, you just type it better.[/QUOTE]
Lol why woukd you say such? I dont diminish Jordan. I just respect the fact that the Bulls were more than just Jordan

[QUOTE=97 bulls]I hate Jordan fans like you Ghengis. [B]I find myself having to diminish Jordans greatness to prove a point.[/B] In that game six, in the span youre refering to, Jordan was 3/15. Pippen only took two shots. Grant took 2, and Paxson hit the game winner. THEY ALL SHOT BAD. It wasnt as if Jordan went 12/15 or something. I remember my friend pointing this out to me. He litterally looked like Kobe out there. He wasnt even looking to pass the ball. It was their defense that won that game for them.

I dont remember Westphal or Barkley doing that, but even if they did, Pippen has almost as many Rings as they have fingers to wrap around their throat. One of them at the expense of those two. So who gives a shit[/QUOTE]

Like I said, you guys both go to ridiculous extremes to diminish both players.

[QUOTE=guy]Who said they didn't need Pippen to carry a significant workload to win? That doesn't mean there was an argument between who was more important. The fact that we are even having discussions about this makes him overrated.

They both did pretty much everything with Pippen taking a bit more of a role in facilitating and arguably defense (specifically in the 2nd three-peat) and Jordan taking a much larger role scoring especially at the end of games. And Pippen taking a larger role in certain aspects doesn't necessarily mean he was actually better at those aspects, but more because Jordan taking more of a role in everything would not have been an efficient strategy when there were other alternatives so he could focus more on aspects there weren't alternatives for such as scoring cause he was by far their best option.

They both took different leadership approaches, Jordan being aggressive and Pippen being passive. And when the team was in a slump, needed a big game in a playoff series, or just needed to send a message or intimidate an opponent with his play, they looked to Jordan.[/QUOTE]
Great post. I do disagree with you saying Pippens leadership was "submissive". Id say it was supportive.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]I hate Jordan fans like you Ghengis. I find myself having to diminish Jordans greatness to prove a point. In that game six, in the span youre refering to, [B][U]Jordan was 3/15[/U][/B]. Pippen only took two shots. Grant took 2, and Paxson hit the game winner. THEY ALL SHOT BAD. It wasnt as if Jordan went 12/15 or something. I remember my friend pointing this out to me. He litterally looked like Kobe out there. He wasnt even looking to pass the ball. It was their defense that won that game for them.

I dont remember Westphal or Barkley doing that, but even if they did, Pippen has almost as many Rings as they have fingers to wrap around their throat. One of them at the expense of those two. So who gives a shit[/QUOTE]

:facepalm

Gosh these fake revisionists. :rolleyes:

1993 NBA Finals @ phoenix: [U][B]Mr Jordan had [COLOR="DarkRed"]3[/COLOR] 3ptFGM / [COLOR="DarkRed"]5[/COLOR] 3ptFGA in first 3 Quarters[/B][/U]

1993 NBA Finals @ phoenix: [B][U]Mr. Jordan had [COLOR="DarkRed"]13[/COLOR] FGM / [COLOR="DarkRed"]26[/COLOR] FGA in all 4 Quarters. Thats [COLOR="DarkRed"]50%[/COLOR]FG ave. That is Excellent for NBA Finals btw[/U][/B]

How did MJ shot poorly :biggums:

[B]Like I said, keep on "revising" & go "over the top" to improve & legitamize Pippen's all-time greatness.

at the end of it all, Pippen is still a trail blazer Pippen, a choker without His Airness, GOAT on his side.[/B]

Underrated...as a punk.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Great post. I do disagree with you saying Pippens leadership was "submissive". Id say it was supportive.[/QUOTE]

I didn't mean it like that, nor did I mean to imply he wasn't an effective leader. He was. They were good cop/bad cop. Pippen's supportive leadership was effective by balancing out Jordan's aggressive approach.

[QUOTE=gengiskhan]:facepalm

Gosh these fake revisionists. :rolleyes:

1993 NBA Finals @ phoenix: [U][B]Mr Jordan had [COLOR="DarkRed"]3[/COLOR] 3ptFGM / [COLOR="DarkRed"]5[/COLOR] 3ptFGA in first 3 Quarters[/B][/U]

1993 NBA Finals @ phoenix: [B][U]Mr. Jordan had [COLOR="DarkRed"]13[/COLOR] FGM / [COLOR="DarkRed"]26[/COLOR] FGA in all 4 Quarters. Thats [COLOR="DarkRed"]50%[/COLOR]FG ave. That is Excellent for NBA Finals btw[/U][/B]

How did MJ shot poorly :biggums:

[B]Like I said, keep on "revising" & go "over the top" to improve & legitamize Pippen's all-time greatness.

at the end of it all, Pippen is still a trail blazer Pippen, a choker without His Airness, GOAT on his side.[/B][/QUOTE]
You were the one that brought up that fourth quarter. Thats why I qualified my point by saying in that span you were reffering to. Which was Jordan scoring all but 3 pts in that fourth quarter. Pippen had a great game overall as did Jordan. His stat line was 23/12/5 for that game.

You cant even stay on your own point.

In terms of technical brilliance on BOTH SIDES of the ball, Pippen is arguably the best SF of all time in that regard. But in terms of DOMINANCE on both sides of the ball, Bron takes the cake at SF. DOMINANCE is the number attribute that makes a player great. Pip was a great defender, passer, and rebounder at the SF.

The part that hurts Pip though is the scoring aspect. U got guys in that 6'6 to 6'8 bracket like MJ, Kobe, Hondo, Bron, etc. who have great all around games on both sides of the ball AND are dominant scorers. Frankly, I wouldn't take Pip over any of these guys. How about other great all around players such as Magic, Bird, Barry, Big O, T Mac, Drexler, etc. I wouldn't take Pip over these guys either. Now on a GOAT list that factors accolades, longevity being great, numbers, etc. Pip may rank higher than some of these guys.

The question becomes would u take a Pip type over a DrJ-Baylor-King-Nique-Durant-Melo-Gervin type. U know scoring machine SG's or SF's who aren't great all around, but are so dominant scoring that it supercedes that. Frankly, I wouldn't take Pippen over any of these guys in most cases.

So is Pip underrated or overrated? I people are ranking Pip a top 25 player then HELL YA he's overrated. If u are talking more 30-40 then I'm fine with that. If anything, Pip redefined the SF, is the greatest perimeter defender of all time arguably, and has epic team accomplishments. But peak value wise, I would rather have a Durant, Dr.J, or Nique type over Pip.

[QUOTE=bizil]In terms of technical brilliance on BOTH SIDES of the ball, Pippen is arguably the best SF of all time in that regard. But in terms of DOMINANCE on both sides of the ball, Bron takes the cake at SF. DOMINANCE is the number attribute that makes a player great. Pip was a great defender, passer, and rebounder at the SF.

The part that hurts Pip though is the scoring aspect. U got guys in that 6'6 to 6'8 bracket like MJ, Kobe, Hondo, Bron, etc. who have great all around games on both sides of the ball AND are dominant scorers. Frankly, I wouldn't take Pip over any of these guys. How about other great all around players such as Magic, Bird, Barry, Big O, T Mac, Drexler, etc. I wouldn't take Pip over these guys either. Now on a GOAT list that factors accolades, longevity being great, numbers, etc. Pip may rank higher than some of these guys.

The question becomes would u take a Pip type over a DrJ-Baylor-King-Nique-Durant-Melo-Gervin type. U know scoring machine SG's or SF's who aren't great all around, but are so dominant scoring that it supercedes that. Frankly, I wouldn't take Pippen over any of these guys in most cases.

So is Pip underrated or overrated? I people are ranking Pip a top 25 player then HELL YA he's overrated. If u are talking more 30-40 then I'm fine with that. If anything, Pip redefined the SF, is the greatest perimeter defender of all time arguably, and has epic team accomplishments. But peak value wise, I would rather have a Durant, Dr.J, or Nique type over Pip.[/QUOTE]
Why do you attempt to compare stats across eras? Case and point, Hondo avg 29 ppg in 71. The league avg for FG attempts per team was 8038. The year Pippen avg 22? The league avg was 6924. Thats more than a thousand more attempts per team. Can you even try to be objective?

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Why do you attempt to compare stats across eras? Case and point, Hondo avg 29 ppg in 71. The league avg for FG attempts per team was 8038. The year Pippen avg 22? The league avg was 6924. Thats more than a thousand more attempts per team. Can you even try to be objective?[/QUOTE]

It comes down to the fact that Hondo is a better number one option than Pip was. Hondo in many ways was the precursor to Pip. Pip just added Dr.J type athletic ability and size to it. Thus the new age point forward model was born. Hill came later and now Bron is taking it to the ultimate heights. But the thing is Pip aint a true alpha dog kind of player. Hondo and Bron both excelled and dominated in that fashion better than Pip ever did.

With all of Pip's accomplishments why isn't he regarded as a top 10-15 player:

6 Time World Champ
2 time gold medalist
Arguably the greatest perimeter defender ever
Redefined SF position
All Star Game MVP
7 Time All Star
7 Time All NBA
10 Time All Defensive

The reason why is because he's a Robin instead of Batman. That's not a bad thing and Pip's still great. But the bottom line is Pip WASN'T an alpha dog, and that's the most premium asset in all of bball. The point forward skills that Pip brings to the table isn't a premium asset at SF, it's a bonus. Other than PG, premium alpha dog scoring is the premium asset, and even most of the best PG's ever have the alpha dog gene more than Pip. U don't believe me look at Magic, Big O, Isiah, Frazier, Payton, Nash, Tiny, and CP3. I would rather have ANY of those PG's willing my team to victory scoring and dishing than Pip. If Pip's DOESN'T win a ring or play with Mike is he a HOFer? Guys like Nique, Barkley, Stockton, and Ewing were clear HOFers WITHOUT a ring. Guys like Marques Johnson, Bernard King, etc. aren't in the HOF yet. King has more career points than Pippen and his peak value was higher. So Pippen WITHOUT a ring might not even be an HOFer and most CERTAINLY not 50 greatest.

I don't agree that Pippen wasn't a Batman or #1 option. He may not have had an alpha personality, but that means little to me if you bring the impact. Durant does not have an alpha personality, at all. He has a passive-aggressive personality, but he's a scorer.


Scottie was a legit PG who could score 20+PPG and do it at a good percentage, and do it on a slow-paced team...even a slow-paced team, behind Michael. Those second 3peat Bulls were not running a lot, but they were so great that they scored more than everyone else. And he got his points.


Even in games where his shot wasn't falling, you saw Scottie attacking the basket and continuing to look for his shot, racking up high-scoring games. And he did everything. He did what you needed to win and did it while actually leading the team. He literally was the 1st option for less than 2 full years. No one has any basis to claim he wasn't a capable or winning 1st option, based on that. Other than Hakeem and MAYBE David Robinson, there wasn't a better player in that two year span. Not Charles, not Karl, not Patrick, not Shaq.

[QUOTE=bizil]It comes down to the fact that Hondo is a better number one option than Pip was. Hondo in many ways was the precursor to Pip. Pip just added Dr.J type athletic ability and size to it. Thus the new age point forward model was born. Hill came later and now Bron is taking it to the ultimate heights. But the thing is Pip aint a true alpha dog kind of player. Hondo and Bron both excelled and dominated in that fashion better than Pip ever did.

With all of Pip's accomplishments why isn't he regarded as a top 10-15 player:

6 Time World Champ
2 time gold medalist
Arguably the greatest perimeter defender ever
Redefined SF position
All Star Game MVP
7 Time All Star
7 Time All NBA
10 Time All Defensive

The reason why is because he's a Robin instead of Batman. That's not a bad thing and Pip's still great. But the bottom line is Pip WASN'T an alpha dog, and that's the most premium asset in all of bball. The point forward skills that Pip brings to the table isn't a premium asset at SF, it's a bonus. Other than PG, premium alpha dog scoring is the premium asset, and even most of the best PG's ever have the alpha dog gene more than Pip. U don't believe me look at Magic, Big O, Isiah, Frazier, Payton, Nash, Tiny, and CP3. I would rather have ANY of those PG's willing my team to victory scoring and dishing than Pip. If Pip's DOESN'T win a ring or play with Mike is he a HOFer? Guys like Nique, Barkley, Stockton, and Ewing were clear HOFers WITHOUT a ring. Guys like Marques Johnson, Bernard King, etc. aren't in the HOF yet. King has more career points than Pippen and his peak value was higher. So Pippen WITHOUT a ring might not even be an HOFer and most CERTAINLY not 50 greatest.[/QUOTE]
The problem is again your not looking at this objectively. Pippen is penalized because he played in Jordan shadow. Not because he wasnt good enough.

Your bias shows in the way you rank players.

Either way you didnt respond to my post about Hondo. I wonder why

I'd also like to reiterate something ive said to you in the past as far as ranking players. Its dumb. Its strictly for fans. Show me a top 25 of an NBA player or coach. They dont do it. Ive seen alltime starting fives of coaches and players. Most are biased if not all. Most impressive was Karl Malone putting Pippen in his starting five cuz he was a competitor.

[QUOTE=Whoah10115]I don't agree that Pippen wasn't a Batman or #1 option. He may not have had an alpha personality, but that means little to me if you bring the impact. Durant does not have an alpha personality, at all. He has a passive-aggressive personality, but he's a scorer.


Scottie was a legit PG who could score 20+PPG and do it at a good percentage, and do it on a slow-paced team...even a slow-paced team, behind Michael. Those second 3peat Bulls were not running a lot, but they were so great that they scored more than everyone else. And he got his points.


Even in games where his shot wasn't falling, you saw Scottie attacking the basket and continuing to look for his shot, racking up high-scoring games. And he did everything. He did what you needed to win and did it while actually leading the team. He literally was the 1st option for less than 2 full years. No one has any basis to claim he wasn't a capable or winning 1st option, based on that. Other than Hakeem and MAYBE David Robinson, there wasn't a better player in that two year span. Not Charles, not Karl, not Patrick, not Shaq.[/QUOTE]

Bottom line is Durant IS AN ALPHA DOG SCORER! He's also a team player who plays within the flow of the game too! U can be both. But KD's assassin mentality and epic scoring skills DICTATES he's an alpha dog scorer clearly! He frankly has a a GREAT CHANCE to be the premier alpha dog scoring machine the SF HAS EVER SEEN! And that's saying a lot when u got Bird, Nique, King, Dr. J, Barry, English, Dantley, and Baylor in that realm too.

U can want it bad, be a very skilled player, and be a 20 PPG. That DOESN'T mean u are an alpha dog scorer. A guy like Durant or Melo is in another galaxy on LIGHT SPEED HAN SOLO style than Pippen in that realm. And a point forward kind of guy like Bron has the foot on the gas EVERY SEASON to be a threat for a scoring title putting up 27-30 a night. So even point forwards who would prefer to pass first have more alpha dog gene than Pip EVER HAD! These are FACTS NOT OPINIONS! If Pip was perceived as an alpha dog, then he would rate in the top 15-20 GOAT. He was too revolutionary and accomplished for that not too happen. U give Barkley six rings and he's the GOAT PF and in the top 10 GOAT!!! A guy like Barkley is simply on another level or two than Pippen. Pip came of age when the SF's like Bird, Nique, King, English, Dantley, Aguirre, etc. were out of the league or tailend prime. Pip came of age when the SF spot wasn't the premier position depth wise in the L. When Bird was at his peak, the SF spot was the deepest position in the L in terms of cream of the crop talent!

[QUOTE=bizil]Bottom line is Durant IS AN ALPHA DOG SCORER! He's also a team player who plays within the flow of the game too! U can be both. But KD's assassin mentality and epic scoring skills DICTATES he's an alpha dog scorer clearly! He frankly has a a GREAT CHANCE to be the premier alpha dog scoring machine the SF HAS EVER SEEN! And that's saying a lot when u got Bird, Nique, King, Dr. J, Barry, English, Dantley, and Baylor in that realm too.

U can want it bad, be a very skilled player, and be a 20 PPG. That DOESN'T mean u are an alpha dog scorer. A guy like Durant or Melo is in another galaxy on LIGHT SPEED HAN SOLO style than Pippen in that realm. And a point forward kind of guy like Bron has the foot on the gas EVERY SEASON to be a threat for a scoring title putting up 27-30 a night. So even point forwards who would prefer to pass first have more alpha dog gene than Pip EVER HAD! These are FACTS NOT OPINIONS! If Pip was perceived as an alpha dog, then he would rate in the top 15-20 GOAT. He was too revolutionary and accomplished for that not too happen. U give Barkley six rings and he's the GOAT PF and in the top 10 GOAT!!! A guy like Barkley is simply on another level or two than Pippen. Pip came of age when the SF's like Bird, Nique, King, English, Dantley, Aguirre, etc. were out of the league or tailend prime. Pip came of age when the SF spot wasn't the premier position depth wise in the L. When Bird was at his peak, the SF spot was the deepest position in the L in terms of cream of the crop talent![/QUOTE]
Kind of superficial way of looking at it dont you think? Being a great scorer is no more the end all be to winning championships than saying that that woman in your avy would make a great wife cuz she has a huge ass. Its the whole premise of build around your franchise player. And Pippen was a franchise player. The most important facet of being a franchise player is having the ability to dominate games. Then you add players that can cater to that players strengths and weaknesses.

[QUOTE=Whoah10115]Other than Hakeem and MAYBE David Robinson, there wasn't a better player in that two year span. Not Charles, not Karl, not Patrick, not Shaq.[/QUOTE]

You're out of your mind. lol @ "maybe" DRob. Shaq also shits on Pippen, and Malone and Barkley are both EXTREMELY arguable. Ewing > Pippen too, in '94 at least.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Kind of superficial way of looking at it dont you think? Being a great scorer is no more the end all be to winning championships than saying that that woman in your avy would make a great wife cuz she has a huge ass. Its the whole premise of build around your franchise player. And Pippen was a franchise player. The most important facet of being a franchise player is having the ability to dominate games. Then you add players that can cater to that players strengths and weaknesses.[/QUOTE]

For starters I never said Pip wasn't great. Pip's two greatest strengths was defense and versatility. So if u have a hole at PG, SG, or SF, Pip can fit the bill. Both on offense and at 6'7 or 6'8 on defense. Many big guards like Magic, Steve Smith, Reggie Theus, Penny, or Jalen Rose can run PG on offense. But how many can defend three or four positions very good to great too? That's the magic of Pip. A for real swiss army knife.

However, if i had to pick to build around a Nique, Durant, King, or Melo, I would rather build around them instead of Pip. Not saying Pip isn't great. Or in certain situations I wouldn't pick Pip for my team. But I can't LOGICALLY see how peak value wise Pippen is better than Durant. And on top of it Durant hasn't even peaked yet! LOL Once again, I can name SEVERAL 6'5 to 6'9 guys who were great all around players AND had more stage presence willing a team through scoring:

MJ
Kobe
Bron
Big O
Magic
Hondo
Bird
Drexler
Penny
G Hill
Barry
T Mac

The guys I listed are pretty much the PREMIER perimeter players of all time in terms of all around excellence and dominant scoring as a package in that midsized range. They were all epic all around players in addition to having more stage presence than Pip taking over scoring. And a lot of the players I mentioned played alongside legends just like Pip.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]The problem is again your not looking at this objectively. Pippen is penalized because he played in Jordan shadow. Not because he wasnt good enough.[/QUOTE]

Hondo played behind Bill Russell and later on Dave Cowens too, not because he wasn't good enough.

[QUOTE]Most impressive was Karl Malone putting Pippen in his starting five cuz he was a competitor.[/QUOTE]

Nothing impressive about Karl Malone and his garbage analysis in that interview. Could see how biased he was ? Can you tell me why he docks a straight one on one comparison with Tim Duncan ?

Also, almost anybody can be a "competitor".

[QUOTE=97 bulls]The problem is again your not looking at this objectively. Pippen is penalized because he played in Jordan shadow. Not because he wasnt good enough.

Your bias shows in the way you rank players.

Either way you didnt respond to my post about Hondo. I wonder why

I'd also like to reiterate something ive said to you in the past as far as ranking players. Its dumb. Its strictly for fans. Show me a top 25 of an NBA player or coach. They dont do it. Ive seen alltime starting fives of coaches and players. Most are biased if not all. Most impressive was Karl Malone putting Pippen in his starting five cuz he was a competitor.[/QUOTE]

On certain teams I would take Pip over guys who are cream of the crop scorers. And Pip was a beast and revolutionized bball. Anytime u are combining Hondo level all around skills with Dr. J level athletic ability and size u are special. It had NEVER been seen before at SF until Pippen did it. But all in all, I think Nique, Durant, King, or Melo are more DOMINANT players than Pip. So even though they might not be better all around, they are often times just as good or better rebounders that Pippen. And EASILY better scorers. So that has to count for something. Would u rather have Pip's defense and passing advantage over a guy like Durant or Nique's scoring and just as good or better rebounding? Pip WASN'T like MJ, Kobe, or Bron in terms of being a great scorer, passer, rebounder, and defender all in one. So give me a KD or Nique usually over a Pippen. And by the way, KD and Nique are finishing 1st runner up MVP wise to the two GOAT SF's in Bird and Bron.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Hondo played behind Bill Russell and later on Dave Cowens too, not because he wasn't good enough.



Nothing impressive about Karl Malone and his garbage analysis in that interview. Could see how biased he was ? Can you tell me why he docks a straight one on one comparison with Tim Duncan ?

Also, almost anybody can be a "competitor".[/QUOTE]
Hondo should be ranked higher than Pippen. Hes accomplished more than him. I was refering to their scoring. The avg NBA game was much more uptempo in Hondos time as opposed to Pippens. And players played more minutes. Thats what I mean by being objective. You cant just look at Hondos and Pippens stats offensively and compare them at face value. But thats what hes doing. Bizil has an agenda. Notice hiw he wont respond
to my statement about why Hondo scored so many points? Some of the players he states hed choose over Pippen to win championships, NEVER EVEN WON A CHAMPIONSHIP. WTF? Im confident hed rather be the guy that scores thirty ppg and loses as opposed to yhe 20 ppg player who comes away with a win


Whats garbage about his opinion? He feels having Pippen on his team would give him the best chance of winning. He could be sour grapes since Pippen and the Bulls denied him of.winning two championships. And what does his view on Tim Duncan have to do with anything?

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Hondo should be ranked higher than Pippen. Hes accomplished more than him. I was refering to their scoring. The avg NBA game was much more uptempo in Hondos time as opposed to Pippens. And players played more minutes. Thats what I mean by being objective. You cant just look at Hondos and Pippens stats offensively and compare them at face value. But thats what hes doing. Bizil has an agenda. Notice hiw he wont respond
to my statement about why Hondo scored so many points? Some of the players he states hed choose over Pippen to win championships, NEVER EVEN WON A CHAMPIONSHIP. WTF? Im confident hed rather be the guy that scores thirty ppg and loses as opposed to yhe 20 ppg player who comes away with a win


Whats garbage about his opinion? He feels having Pippen on his team would give him the best chance of winning. He could be sour grapes since Pippen and the Bulls denied him of.winning two championships. And what does his view on Tim Duncan have to do with anything?[/QUOTE]

I have no agenda against Pip at all. I give Pip mad props UNTIL i see people saying Pip is a top 20-25 player of all time. Or that Pip peak value wise Pip was a top 3 SF. At that point I gotta state my opinion.

As far as Hondo and how many points he scored, I know one thing. And that's Hondo had more ALPHA DOG gene than Pip had. No agenda, just facts! I just don't see Pip as a top 20-25 player. And I don't like an icon like Nique getting shitted on when Pip got to play with the GOAT. Sure u may prefer Pip's all around game to Nique's. But for me, I think Nique's scoring acumen and rebounding trumps Pip's passing and defense advantage in many cases.

[QUOTE=bizil]On certain teams I would take Pip over guys who are cream of the crop scorers. And Pip was a beast and revolutionized bball. Anytime u are combining Hondo level all around skills with Dr. J level athletic ability and size u are special. It had NEVER been seen before at SF until Pippen did it. But all in all, I think Nique, Durant, King, or Melo are more DOMINANT players than Pip. So even though they might not be better all around, they are often times just as good or better rebounders that Pippen. And EASILY better scorers. So that has to count for something. Would u rather have Pip's defense and passing advantage over a guy like Durant or Nique's scoring and just as good or better rebounding? Pip WASN'T like MJ, Kobe, or Bron in terms of being a great scorer, passer, rebounder, and defender all in one. So give me a KD or Nique usually over a Pippen. And by the way, KD and Nique are finishing 1st runner up MVP wise to the two GOAT SF's in Bird and Bron.[/QUOTE]
Theres probably hundreds of wing player that I feel are better defensively than Bryant (whose overrated). Hes a very good defender, just like Pippen was a very good scorer. You seem to try to make it seem as if Pippens offense was a weakness. Again failing to be objective. If Pippens prime fell in tne 80s, theres no doubt he avg 24-25 ppg. With a high of 27-28. BECAUSE HE WOULDVE HAD MORE FGAs. For some reason that just cant sink in for you.