Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

[QUOTE=DatAsh]You're missing my point.[/QUOTE]

But you just said it's hardly a perfect measure...yet the entire argument for your side is based on it.

And it goes up in smoke when you start talking about other players besides Durant like Harden and Kevin Martin.

Kevin Durant could be taking 21 shots a game this year and averaging the exact same number of free throws...and your argument would amount to nothing because fga vs ft rate would be right in line with everyone else....assuming we don't have to debate that Durant is better at drawing fouls than Melo and Kobe like everyone has agreed to.

And if those shots were 2 more threes (just like Melo) and 1 more long jumper (just like Melo)....you just wouldn't see a change in free throw attempts.

Well his scoring abilities are becoming increasingly masked by obnoxious touch foul calls that significantly aid in his PPG output. So as of this moment, I don't know how good of a scorer he actually is as a player.

I actually think he's a better shooter than he is a scorer. He used to play better off the ball, and he's got that long range. He's essentially Dirk with better handle, and a better finisher / transition game. But I still don't like it when he puts the ball on the floor.

To me he's too tall and long to be playing as far away from the basket as he does. It's annoying. He's 6'11 with a 7 footer's wing span. He should play much closer to the basket.

Hell, his physique bothers me. He's built like a string bean, looks so fragile with these girly narrow shoulders, and an odd thick neck. As seen in the Miami series, or when Artest used to guard him ... he can't take physicality. You bump him and make him uncomfortable before he touches the ball on the perimeter and you can give him MAJOR problems. Takes him right out of his game.

In a more physical league, I wonder what Durant would actually look like when he's not being promoted by the league's refs in order to manufacture another superstar, one with whom they can label as LeBron's equal.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]Well his scoring abilities are becoming increasingly masked by obnoxious touch foul calls that significantly aid in his PPG output. So as of this moment, I don't know how good of a scorer he actually is as a player.

I actually think he's a better shooter than he is a scorer. He used to play better off the ball, and he's got that long range. He's essentially Dirk with better handle, and a better finisher / transition game. But I still don't like it when he puts the ball on the floor.

To me he's too tall and long to be playing as far away from the basket as he does. It's annoying. He's built like a string bean, with these girly narrow shoulders, and an odd thick neck. As seen in the Miami series, or when Artest used to guard him ... he can't take physicality. You bump him and make him uncomfortable before he touches the ball on the perimeter and you can give him MAJOR problems. Takes him right out of his game.

In a more physical league, I wonder what Durant would actually look like when he's not being promoted by the league's refs in order to manufacture another superstar, one with whom they can label as LeBron's equal.[/QUOTE]


Sounds crazy but I wouldn't be surprised if the difference in reffing between LeBron and Durant is to get them to become rivals. LeBron already cracked because of unfair reffing against him and he has to sit here and watch Durant get BS calls all day and then get compared to him.

Getting to the free throw line is a talent. Only disreputable scum cannot appreciate Durant's overwhelming greatness.

[QUOTE=ThatsGame]Sounds crazy but I wouldn't be surprised if the difference in reffing between LeBron and Durant is to get them to become rivals. LeBron already cracked because of unfair reffing against him and he has to sit here and watch Durant get BS calls all day and then get compared to him.[/QUOTE]
Don't get it twisted, LeBron complaining like that ... specifically after a loss, on fouls that weren't excessive makes him a bitch. Even a Miami fan should be able to admit that ...

You didn't see MJ, Larry, or Magic crying after losses about fouls. Ones that were much more excessive and violent than the ones on LeBron. Mind you the call he complained about on Hinrich ... he INTIATED the contact barreling into him with his shoulder. The 6 inch shorter, and probably like 80 lbs lighter Hinrich had no choice but to pull him down. By doing tat he helps both of them on the fall.

But yes, I wouldn't doubt all this favortism and bull shit calls Durant gets is possibly either conciously being done to help promote the league, and a potential rival for LeBron. The Kobe v.s. LeBron matchup failed to take flight from 2006 - 2012. All they have left is Durant. Pretty sure the league has given up on propping up or promoting Melo. As seen by the complete disrespect and lack of calls he gets. All while taking much more physical punishment than Durant.

[QUOTE=Psycho][B]Getting to the free throw line is a talent.[/B] Only disreputable scum cannot appreciate Durant's overwhelming greatness.[/QUOTE]

Bingo to the bold.

And if Durant were...I don't know...20% better at drawing fouls and getting to the line than guys like Melo and Kobe...then it would all make sense.

Even with using fga as the main factor. Put in minutes played and slightly factor in Melo and Kobe settling for more bad shots...and you have reality.

No conspiracy...no crazy statistical anomaly. You simply have a player that decided to shoot less bad shots and try to get to the line as much as possible all year. And why wouldn't he? He shoots 91% from the line.

And, I'm not basing any of my argument on this, but if Durant has taken just 25 more tech free throws...which honestly seems very likely...that would be an extra .3 fta per game that has nothing to do with the game. Before I get flamed...I'm not claiming that...but if it were true...on minutes and techs alone...Melo would see a .6 increase in free throw attempts per game. Which is actually huge when the difference is 1.8 to begin with.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]How many shots you take is a factor...but it's not the sole factor.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed

[QUOTE]How can you not see that. [/QUOTE]

I can.

[QUOTE]We've already all agreed that Durant is better at drawing fouls.[/QUOTE]

We have? You have. I most certainly have not. In terms of their ability to intentionally draw fouls, where otherwise none would exist, Durant is among the best in the league, though I'd still say guys like Kobe and Wade are better in that regard. The more important measure is how often you actually think they get fouled - intentionally or not. Durant is better at drawing intentional shooting fouls that Harden, but Harden gets fouled more - whistled or not - because his style of play lends itself better to drawing contact. Lebron is the same way in my eyes. Maybe I'm seeing things wrong, but to me Lebron draws more contact than Durant, despite Durant being better at intentionally drawing it, because his style of play lends itself to him being hacked.


A lot of your argument is that of a strawman; it stems from the assumption that I think fta/fga is the sole criteria for this type of analysis, which is a false assumption.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]Agreed



I can.



We have? You have. I most certainly have not. In terms of their ability to intentionally draw fouls, where otherwise none would exist, Durant is among the best in the league, though I'd still say guys like Kobe and Wade are better in that regard. The more important measure is how often you actually think they get fouled - intentionally or not. Durant is better at drawing intentional shooting fouls that Harden, but Harden gets fouled more - whistled or not - because his style of play lends itself better to drawing contact. Lebron is the same way in my eyes. Maybe I'm seeing things wrong, but to me Lebron draws more contact than Durant, despite Durant being better at intentionally drawing it, because his style of play lends itself to him being hacked.


A lot of your argument is that of a strawman, much of your argument stems from the assumption that I think fta/fga is the sole criteria for this type of analysis, which is a false assumption.[/QUOTE]

If you don't think Durant is better at drawing fouls then your argument makes more sense than what other people are saying...because everyone else has pretty much agreed Durant is better at drawing fouls.

I think it's just semantics. I'm not saying Durant gets fouled more...I'm saying he does a better job getting to the line. Which is basically just me saying that Durant plays to get fouled intentionally more than guys like Lebron, Melo, and Kobe this year. Which is exactly what you just said. Harden is the exact same way. Kevin Martin was that way in 2011.

And when you combine a player that is very good at drawing fouls to begin with...then chooses to do it more often. FGA just don't matter all that much...hence it's really not anything more than one of many factors in determining free throws.

Durant and Harden this year are perfect evidence for that. Martin in 11 is more evidence for it.

You guys would have way more of a solid point if the difference was bigger and if we hadn't seen similar stuff before. And again, we have a player this year shooting less shots and taking almost 1 more free throw per game than Durant. LOL

How many hours a day do you suppose Durant works on his ability to draw fouls?

And again to Shaq.

When I first posted...I provided exactly the context needed. That in a similar amount of minutes played per game. Durant is getting to the line slightly less than 1 more time per game (as you get 2 free throws per trip)...

What a player does with the time on the court can be many things. You jumped in and went nuts with your fga vs fta rate...acting like that is all that matters. Which, of course, there is no evidence for that. So you took it in that direction saying that.

I could have just of easily responded that all that matters is how many minutes a player plays and what you do on the court in the time is up in the air.

And once you admitted that Durant is better at drawing fouls...the debate, for all intensive purposes, is over....and then you refused to quantify how much better he is. All you did was say how much better he is according to your hugely flawed fta vs fga rate. Which goes out the window because Kobe's rate is higher than Melo's...yet Kobe takes less shots and Melo shoots more shots at the rim. But you are okay with that....LOL

And you accuse me of being biased? Makes non sense.

And then when I explained that fga alone is not a huge factor...and that you'd have to look at certain types of shots...you just ignore that and focus on the "at rim" stuff. Which, for arguments sake, I conceded. Even though just shooting at the rim does not mean you are better at getting fouled. Durant could draw more fouls at the rim despite shooting less shots...in fact, that scenario is more likely than you think because you don't get credited with a shot when you are fouled. See...see how many flaws there are in your thinking?

But even if we agree to go off your flawed rate...you still get a likely scenario in which Durant takes 3 more shots a game (2 threes and 1 long jumper) to get his total to 21...and he adds no more free throws per game. Because we all know that Melo takes at least 3 shots a game like that...in which he's just simply never getting fouled on...or at least it is so rare it doesn't even matter stats wise. All you are doing is rewarding Melo and Kobe for taking 2 to 3 more bad shots per game that have no impact on free throw shooting overall.

So again. If Durant was take 3 more long shots a game and shooting the same amount of free throws...would you still have an issue? Because if you did, then your fga vs fta rate argument goes up in smoke.

Also, the Thunder take 27.3 free throws a game. The Knicks take 21.5 free throws per game. That is a big enough gap to logically conclude that the Thunder spend more time in the bonus. How much does that impact Durant getting to the line. Does he get fouled once every 3 games in the bonus and go to the line more often than Melo? Think about that. If it happened only one more time every 3 games. That is roughly .7 more free throws per game off the bonus alone.

But lets say it doesn't happen that often. Lets say it's only .5 per game. So;

On minutes you see a .3 difference. Just a fact. So the difference goes from 1.8 to 1.5.

Now, if Durant has shot more techs, even a small amount, and he's fouled more often in the bonus...that 1.5 difference could easily drop to .8....and this is before we've talked about anything actually relevant to the players.

See why I said the margins are small?

So I ask again. Why is this an issue. We have a player that plays more minutes, likely shoots more techs, plays on a team that spends more time in the bonus, takes less bad shots, and the KICKER....is better at drawing fouls.

And it is absurd for him to shoot 1.8 more free throws per game?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Your "rate" is solely based on fga. You are assuming that fga is what determines free throw attempts. It is a factor, but not the sole factor. Harden and Durant destroy that theory....unless you are claiming that both of them get special treatment that no other players in the league get[/QUOTE]

Obviously it's not the only factor, but FTA can't be posted as proof of anything without them. And in 20 years watching the NBA I've never seen a player get the treatment Durant does.

[QUOTE]How do you feel about Harden.[/QUOTE]

Well, Harden pretty much either shoots 3s or goes to the rim. 31.3% of his shots come at the rim, significantly higher than either Durant or Melo. And he also plays on the fastest pace team in the league which helps with easy baskets. However, he is a notorious flopper, so I'd say he gets too much credit with the refs as well.

[QUOTE]And you certainly can't just claim that Kobe is great at drawing fouls on jump shots like it means anything. We've already determined Durant is better at drawing fouls.[/QUOTE]

Again, Kobe is the best in the league at drawing fouls on jumpers. Best I've seen in a long time. He's guarded as tight as anyone, and he has the best pump fake in the game. Only guys like Reggie kicking their legs out come to mind.

[QUOTE]Please answer. Would you have a problem with Durant shooting the exact same amount of free throws if he shots 21 shots a game? Please answer.[/QUOTE]

Depends on what I saw watching the games. Chances are 9.4 FTA would be the upper limit for 21 FGA. If he was primarily going to the rim for those extra shots then it wouldn't be so bad.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Oh, I forgot the shots within 10 feet argument.

So you have

7.3 for Melo
7.0 for Durant

But then...how about shots 16 feet and out

11.6 for Melo
8.0 for Durant

Hmmmmmmmmmm.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol: Who cares? Outside of 10 feet, you're talking jump shots anyway. You're not that much more likely to get fouled than you are on a 3, especially when you consider late close outs. But this doesn't necessarily help your argument either. I see Melo get fouled a decent amount on turnaround jumpers outside of 10 feet, and I just saw him draw a foul on a mid-range shot tonight during his hot streak in the 3rd quarter.

You keep claiming I tried arguing FGA are the ONLY thing that matters and stuck to it. That's simply false. I got more in-depth with shots at the rim(which is easily the place you'll be fouled most frequently) and even expanded it to 10 feet and in.

You're the one whose grasping at straws with 3s and other nonsense. Fact is, Durant attempts almost 2 more FTA while shooting considerably less at the rim and less inside of 10 feet in general.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Obviously it's not the only factor, but FTA can't be posted as proof of anything without them. And in 20 years watching the NBA I've never seen a player get the treatment Durant does.



Well, Harden pretty much either shoots 3s or goes to the rim. 31.3% of his shots come at the rim, significantly higher than either Durant or Melo. And he also plays on the fastest pace team in the league which helps with easy baskets. However, he is a notorious flopper, so I'd say he gets too much credit with the refs as well.



Again, Kobe is the best in the league at drawing fouls on jumpers. Best I've seen in a long time. He's guarded as tight as anyone, and he has the best pump fake in the game. Only guys like Reggie kicking their legs out come to mind.



Depends on what I saw watching the games. Chances are 9.4 FTA would be the upper limit for 21 FGA. If he was primarily going to the rim for those extra shots then it wouldn't be so bad.



:oldlol: Who cares? Outside of 10 feet, you're talking jump shots anyway. You're not that much more likely to get fouled than you are on a 3, especially when you consider late close outs. But this doesn't necessarily help your argument either. I see Melo get fouled a decent amount on turnaround jumpers outside of 10 feet, and I just saw him draw a foul on a mid-range shot tonight during his hot streak in the 3rd quarter.

You keep claiming I tried arguing FGA are the ONLY thing that matters and stuck to it. That's simply false. I got more in-depth with shots at the rim(which is easily the place you'll be fouled most frequently) and even expanded it to 10 feet and in.

You're the one whose grasping at straws with 3s and other nonsense. Fact is, Durant attempts almost 2 more FTA while shooting considerably less at the rim and less inside of 10 feet in general.[/QUOTE]


You keep pretending that the rim is the only way to get to the foul line. You keep pretending that Durant isn't excellent at drawing fouls all over the court.

You are on to something about the fact that Harden is also excellent at drawing contact. But you shoot yourself in the foot using the at rim shots for Harden because, as you said, he gets more easy baskets.

It matters more how good these players are at drawing fouls. Kevin Martin in 2011 shot a much higher rate of free throws than Durant is this year. It is hardly unheard of.

If Melo and Durant played the same amount of mpg this year. The difference in fta would be 1.5 per game. I'm asking you...what should that difference be according to you. Please answer...


You are exactly right about the outside of 10 feet. You just said that they shoot a comparable amount inside of 10 feet. So most of Melo's extra attempts come on shots that aren't likely to draw a foul. You are making my point for me you moron....especially after you conceded Durant is better at getting fouled. So if he's better at getting fouled and he takes less long shots...that does matter. Which, again, is why Melo taking 4 shots more per game from 16 feet and out is important to your fga theory.

I'll ask it to everyone in the thread. Once they are even in mpg. The difference between Melo and Durant is 1.5 free throws per game.

What should the difference be according to you guys?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41][B]You keep pretending that the rim is the only way to get to the foul line.[/B] You keep pretending that Durant isn't excellent at drawing fouls all over the court.[/QUOTE]

Actually, you're implying this yourself by harping on long range shots. You just contradict yourself by bringing up where the shots occur.

[QUOTE]You are on to something about the fact that Harden is also excellent at drawing contact. But you shoot yourself in the foot using the at rim shots for Harden because, as you said, he gets more easy baskets.[/QUOTE]

At the rim. Harden doesn't even have a mid-range game and takes over 6 thees. A higher percentage of his shots are 3s than Melo. So it's you shooting yourself in the foot. The Harden example only suggests that shots at the rim are the best way to go when breaking down FTA.

[QUOTE]It matters more how good these players are at drawing fouls. Kevin Martin in 2011 shot a much higher rate of free throws than Durant is this year. It is hardly unheard of.[/QUOTE]

Martin is another notorious flopper.

[QUOTE]If Melo and Durant played the same amount of mpg this year. The difference in fta would be 1.5 per game. I'm asking you...what should that difference be according to you. Please answer...[/QUOTE]

7-8 FTA per game for Durant would probably be ok.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Actually, you're implying this yourself by harping on long range shots. You just contradict yourself by bringing up where the shots occur.



At the rim. Harden doesn't even have a mid-range game and takes over 6 thees. A higher percentage of his shots are 3s than Melo. So it's you shooting yourself in the foot. The Harden example only suggests that shots at the rim are the best way to go when breaking down FTA.



Martin is another notorious flopper.



7-8 FTA per game for Durant would probably be ok.[/QUOTE]

No. I'm saying that there are certain shots they have very little chance to get fouled on. Melo takes more of them. And I never said fga was nearly as big a factor as you. I'm just pointing out that a certain number of the fga for Melo and Kobe simply have very little chance to get fouled on. Just like Harden with his threes. Martin shot 3.2 shots at the rim in 11 and his free throws were off the charts...LOL

Ok. We'll go with 8 free throws considering that is what Melo would average playing the same amount of minutes. Since you already conceded that Durant should get to the line more than Melo...I find it a little disingenuous to claim only a .1 difference.

Now. How much more often do you think Durant gets to the line simply by his team being in the bonus more often. The thunder shoot 1.5 more free throws per qtr than the Knicks and are likely in the bonus more often.

As I said before, even if Durant only got to the line 1 more time every 3 games off of this...that would be a .7 difference.

So on minutes and that alone...I get Durant down from 9.4 to 8.4. And that isn't even taking into account techs...but we can ignore that.

So you are left with 7.6 for Melo and 8.4 for Durant on things the players don't do. Minutes and Durant having an advantage for being on a team that draws more fouls.

Is 8.4 too high for you still?

Also, I'm confused as to how shots at the rim and fga are the best indicators here when;

Melo shoots more shots at the rim and shoots 5.1 shots more than Harden...yet Harden shoots 2.5 more free throws per game.

Melo shoots more shots at the rim than Kobe and shoots 1.6 more shots...yet Kobe takes more free throws.

And Kevin Martin in 11 just destroys that notion with very few shots at the rim and an inordinate amount of free throws on very few fga.

You might not like it, but Harden and Durant have an actual skill that allows them to get to the line more often....and I don't think it is all that related to shots at the rim or overall fga. I think it's just something they intentionally try to do...and happen to be very good at it.

Okay DMAVS we can all see the light now. Durant's got that "actual skill" to get fouled without contact. I wonder how many hours he spends at the gym, trying to miss a jumper with a guy within 2 feet of him, while flailing his arms and falling to the ground. And then proceeding to stare at the wall until someone plays his favorite noise, a sharp and forceful whistle.

Lebron has averaged more than 10 fta per game 3 times during his career. That doesn't mean he wasn't a good scorer. KD averaged 28 ppg last season on 7.5 fta per game. KD is clearly a great scorer, he's proven it throughout his nba career, as you pointed out. It's only Lebron lovers that say this type of sh*t.

[QUOTE=Element]Okay DMAVS we can all see the light now. Durant's got that "actual skill" to get fouled without contact. I wonder how many hours he spends at the gym, trying to miss a jumper with a guy within 2 feet of him, while flailing his arms and falling to the ground. And then proceeding to stare at the wall until someone plays his favorite noise, a sharp and forceful whistle.[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying he doesn't get BS calls, but every star does...including both Kobe and Melo.

The difference in going to the line less than 1 more time per game is not enough to warrant the outrage expressed in this thread. Especially when half of you have conceded that Durant is better at drawing fouls.

We've determined that fga is certainly a factor, but not the only one. We've determined that shots at the rim are a factor, but hardly a big one. We've determined that Kobe and Melo settle for more bad shots in which drawing a foul is less likely.

In terms of Durant vs Melo...Durant's team shoots 1.5 more free throws per qtr and that leads to more time in the bonus...which could dramatically impact Durant's free throw attempts just off being on that team. You could easily see Durant and Melo switch places see Durant shoot 1 less free throw per game and Melo shoot one more free throw per game.

My point from the very beginning was simple. Durant is very good at drawing fouls...certainly better than Melo and Kobe. And that a difference of less than 1 trip to the line per game is not a big enough difference to warrant the bitching about his free throws.

On the average game, he doesn't even go to the free throw line a full 1 time more than Kobe or Melo.

Even if my side were to concede everything...it still means nothing. Take away 2 ppg from Durant and he's still as good as he is now.

So the notion that he is what he is off of free throws is non sense to begin with. Let alone the fact that his more fta is easily explained using logic....rather than proposing a league wide conspiracy in favor of Harden and Durant and against Melo and Kobe (two stars that play for the two biggest teams in the league)....

The thing is just that yeah, while every star gets BS calls (though not really Melo) or no calls (Lebron on defense hmm), KD gets more of them than ANYONE else we've seen recently, and at a much higher rate, too. A BS call is not quantifiable with numbers. Only when you watch him do his don't-get-hit-stare-at-ref routine you can see it. He gets whistles even young LeBron or 11 Wade wouldn't have gotten. 06 Finals Wade would be very proud of KD today, while everyone else would just shake their heads...it's awful to watch. Again, the key word is WATCHING. Watch him play, you'll see it, no need for any data

[QUOTE=Element]The thing is just that yeah, while every star gets BS calls (though not really Melo) or no calls (Lebron on defense hmm), KD gets more of them than ANYONE else we've seen recently, and at a much higher rate, too. A BS call is not quantifiable with numbers. Only when you watch him do his don't-get-hit-stare-at-ref routine you can see it. He gets whistles even young LeBron or 11 Wade wouldn't have gotten. 06 Finals Wade would be very proud of KD today, while everyone else would just shake their heads...it's awful to watch. Again, the key word is WATCHING. Watch him play, you'll see it, no need for any data[/QUOTE]

But that is just your opinion...and quite frankly just confirmation bias.

Now, if you are taking the stance that Durant is not good at drawing fouls and just receives an inordinate amount of BS calls...then at least you would have something to stand on.

But if you, like the others, concede that he's better at drawing fouls to begin with. Then a comparison with him and Melo (the guy you say gets no star treatment) looks rather similar. There is a 1.8 difference per game. .3 is removed when you have them play the same minutes. It is hard to quantify, but Durant most likely shoots more techs. The Thunder spend more time in the bonus and shoot 1.5 more free throws per qtr. So that 1.8 difference quickly becomes under 1 without even talking about what they do as players...that is just on circumstances alone.

So again. Either the league unfairly gives Durant many more calls than other stars...or he's actually doing something that leads to those calls. I tend to think he's doing something considering it makes no sense to prop up a player or team like the Thunder over the Lakers or Knicks and their stars.

And certainly doesn't make sense to prop up Harden...which you would have to argue as well if you think Durant gets BS star treatment. And you'd have to include Martin when he was taking an insane amount of free throws based on the metrics presented in this thread.

Seems like everyones issue is with the league and not Durant. How can you blame Durant if what he's doing is working?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Also, I'm confused as to how shots at the rim and fga are the best indicators here when;

Melo shoots more shots at the rim and shoots 5.1 shots more than Harden...yet Harden shoots 2.5 more free throws per game.

Melo shoots more shots at the rim than Kobe and shoots 1.6 more shots...yet Kobe takes more free throws.

And Kevin Martin in 11 just destroys that notion with very few shots at the rim and an inordinate amount of free throws on very few fga.

You might not like it, but Harden and Durant have an actual skill that allows them to get to the line more often....and I don't think it is all that related to shots at the rim or overall fga. I think it's just something they intentionally try to do...and happen to be very good at it.[/QUOTE]


That tells you how bad Melo is reffed. He should be taking much more free throws than he is given.

Every superstar gets superstar fouls, but KD's are ridiculous. Anyone can see it. Some of you are in denial clearly.

I used to really enjoy watching KD play but it has gone downhill this season. I don't think it is entertaining to watch someone shoot free throws. All he has to do is flail his arms a bit and it's a foul.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]No. I'm saying that there are certain shots they have very little chance to get fouled on. Melo takes more of them. And I never said fga was nearly as big a factor as you. I'm just pointing out that a certain number of the fga for Melo and Kobe simply have very little chance to get fouled on. Just like Harden with his threes. Martin shot 3.2 shots at the rim in 11 and his free throws were off the charts...LOL[/QUOTE]

I watch Melo and Durant more than I watched Martin so it's difficult to make a completely fair comparison, but I do know that Martin for years has been known as one of the most notorious floppers. On his mid-range shots, he constantly leans his body in trying to draw fouls, is quite thin which helps sell contact as well and has that awkward shot.

I don't think players like that often deserve all of their free throws either, btw.

[QUOTE]Now. How much more often do you think Durant gets to the line simply by his team being in the bonus more often. The thunder shoot 1.5 more free throws per qtr than the Knicks and are likely in the bonus more often.

As I said before, even if Durant only got to the line 1 more time every 3 games off of this...that would be a .7 difference.

So on minutes and that alone...I get Durant down from 9.4 to 8.4. And that isn't even taking into account techs...but we can ignore that.

So you are left with 7.6 for Melo and 8.4 for Durant on things the players don't do. Minutes and Durant having an advantage for being on a team that draws more fouls.

Is 8.4 too high for you still?[/QUOTE]

Except we have no idea how much being in the penalty has added to either of their numbers. Watching the games, I suspect Durant draws more fouls that way, but as I said, Melo with his typical rest is playing at the end of all 4 quarters. Durant gets his rests the last few minutes of the 1st and 3rd, taking out some situations where his opponent would more likely be in the penalty.

8.4 would be on the high side, yes.

You still haven't explained why Durant's OWN FTA have jumped almost 2 per game from 7.6 to 9.4.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Also, I'm confused as to how shots at the rim and fga are the best indicators here when;

Melo shoots more shots at the rim and shoots 5.1 shots more than Harden...yet Harden shoots 2.5 more free throws per game.

Melo shoots more shots at the rim than Kobe and shoots 1.6 more shots...yet Kobe takes more free throws.

And Kevin Martin in 11 just destroys that notion with very few shots at the rim and an inordinate amount of free throws on very few fga.

You might not like it, but Harden and Durant have an actual skill that allows them to get to the line more often....and I don't think it is all that related to shots at the rim or overall fga. I think it's just something they intentionally try to do...and happen to be very good at it.[/QUOTE]

I think Harden does get more credit than he should for his flops. I said that before. So I never said he deserves all the FTA he gets either. And as I said, he plays on the fastest paced team in the league and transition/semi-transition opportunities often result in fouls. Melo doesn't get many of these since the Knicks don't run, and when they are in transition, often look for open 3s.

It's not just the number with Durant either. Again, I see him get calls with little to no contact, pretty much if he twists his body awkwardly and misses a shot, hell, sometimes when he makes it. While I see Melo often go up strong, get contact and no call. Calls that Durant will literally get almost every time.

There's no question in my mind just from watching them play. I don't believe in league conspiracies, I think it may have more to do with Melo's reputation in addition to the refs rewarding Durant too much for his own flopping, combined with his weaker frame and just how unusual he looks with his length, especially when his shot is contested.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I watch Melo and Durant more than I watched Martin so it's difficult to make a completely fair comparison, but I do know that Martin for years has been known as one of the most notorious floppers. On his mid-range shots, he constantly leans his body in trying to draw fouls, is quite thin which helps sell contact as well and has that awkward shot.

I don't think players like that often deserve all of their free throws either, btw.



Except we have no idea how much being in the penalty has added to either of their numbers. Watching the games, I suspect Durant draws more fouls that way, but as I said, Melo with his typical rest is playing at the end of all 4 quarters. Durant gets his rests the last few minutes of the 1st and 3rd, taking out some situations where his opponent would more likely be in the penalty.

8.4 would be on the high side, yes.

You still haven't explained why Durant's OWN FTA have jumped almost 2 per game from 7.6 to 9.4.



I think Harden does get more credit than he should for his flops. I said that before. So I never said he deserves all the FTA he gets either. And as I said, he plays on the fastest paced team in the league and transition/semi-transition opportunities often result in fouls. Melo doesn't get many of these since the Knicks don't run, and when they are in transition, often look for open 3s.

It's not just the number with Durant either. Again, I see him get calls with little to no contact, pretty much if he twists his body awkwardly and misses a shot, hell, sometimes when he makes it. While I see Melo often go up strong, get contact and no call. Calls that Durant will literally get almost every time.

There's no question in my mind just from watching them play. I don't believe in league conspiracies, I think it may have more to do with Melo's reputation in addition to the refs rewarding Durant too much for his own flopping, combined with his weaker frame and just how unusual he looks with his length, especially when his shot is contested.[/QUOTE]


I understand all that and I don't think really any of your post refutes what I'm saying. In fact, I agree with a lot of it. Our difference is essentially that you don't think Durant deserves it...while I think he has a skill/ability that gets him to the line more often. Really, you do to, you just don't like it.

Durant has jumped up his free throws this year because he's trying to get to the line more. It's obvious watching him play. He's cut down on long jumpers and threes....he's taking 1 less three and 1 less long jumper per game. So his fga are really the same in terms of your fga vs fta rate theory. He's just removed two bad shots a game. But the main thing is that he's trying to get to the line more. That is the difference between Harden/Durant and Melo/Kobe...the first pairing plays to get fouled more often. I think we can all agree on that...and it's something that Durant, at least imo, has been trying to do all year to become more efficient...and he has. So I don't think it's crazy to see a player go to the line roughly 1 more time per game when said player is trying to do that.

I didn't say I could prove anything. I said that logic leads you to a few things;

Minutes evened up takes Melo up .3 fta per game
The bonus thing has some impact. We don't know how much, but it definitely matters that the Thunder spend more time in the bonus and shoot 1.5 more free throws per qtr....
Techs matter. Who knows how much, but even if it were just 20 or 25 extra a year...that makes up .3 per game roughly

So, my point, is that it's a marginal difference...which you claimed otherwise solely based on fga. That was my beef. Even if you conservatively take the above into account. You are going from a 1.8 difference to 1.0 difference per game...and that has nothing to do with the players...just situations.

Then you said that Durant was better at drawing fouls. That is why I asked how much better. Because if he's 20 percent better...that could easily lead to an extra free throw or two a game.

So if you put them in similar team situations and you'd see roughly a 1 free throw difference per game...and Durant is better. I don't see the big deal. And that is just Melo. Kobe shoots 2 less shots per game than melo...so the margins are even smaller on that comparison.

If you went solely by fga...then Durant would be shooting at a much higher rate, but that metric is merely one of many factors and you treated it as the only one...or at least the main one. And the evidence just doesn't show that. Just like shots at the rim...they matter, but not nearly as much as you say given the evidence.

How is 8.4 still excessive? That would mean Durant goes to the line .4 more times a game than Melo. If you admit Durant is better at getting to the line...I don't see how a mere .8 difference on free throws is that big of a deal.

But honestly...the whole fga thing skewed the debate.

Here is the simple truth that honestly doesn't need much context. In the same number of minutes played per game. Durant shoots about 1.5 more free throws per game. Which is exactly within the normal range for a player you claim is better at getting to the line and, in my opinion, plays to get to the line more than Melo does.

Factor in things like techs and the bonus...and you shrink the number further.

Now, if you don't think Durant is better at getting to the line...then you would have more of reason to take your position. But it seemed to me that you agreed he was and just thought he got there too often based on a fga vs fta rate that is inherently flawed and missing way too much to solely go by.

And I never said Durant doesn't get the benefit of some calls for his frame and all the things you said. All of those things go into making him better at getting to the line. He uses them to his advantage. That is like saying Lebron dunks so often because of his size and strength...well...yes...he uses what he has to his advantage. Durant is tall, long, and skinny...and doesn't absorb contact the same way Melo does. And he combines all of that with selling calls more often and better.

So I'm stuck still being confused. Said player plays more minutes, shoots more techs, his team is in the bonus more often, tries to get to the line more often, and is better at selling calls...and it is unreasonable for said player to take roughly .9 more trips to the line per game?

I don't see the big deal. You watch any Thunder or Knicks game....and you are going to see Durant on the court 1.5 more minutes per game...and watch him take 1.8 more free throws per game. Which is going to the line .9 more times per game on average. That just isn't a big enough gap to warrant the outrage. Remove the extra free throws and all you would see is Durant taking an extra shot or two a game. His ppg would stay the same and his fg% might drop from like 50.6 to like 50.3. So I just don't see the issue. The only time this really would be a problem would be if you thought Durant should only be shooting like 6 free throws a game. But you think he should be shooting, i'm assuming, around 8 a game.

And that was the point of this thread. Is Durant only a good scorer because of his fta. If Durant and Melo shot the same percentage from the line, Durant would be getting 1.6 more ppg than Melo from the line.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
Minutes evened up takes Melo up .3 fta per game
[/QUOTE]

It also takes him up another fga per game. The ratio remains the same, which is a more indicative stat than just raw fta.

[QUOTE]In the same number of minutes played per game. Durant shoots about 1.5 more free throws per game. [/QUOTE]

Why are you so open to the idea of equalizing minutes, and yet so opposed to the idea of equalizing shot attempts? Equalizing shot attempts is a lot more meaningful.

[QUOTE]Durant is tall, long, and skinny...and doesn't absorb contact the same way Melo does. [/QUOTE]

For me personally, this is the biggest factor I see in guys like Lebron and Anthony not really getting the calls they should. Lebron, and to a lesser extent, Anthony, are very good at powering through contact at the rim and still putting up a decent shot.

[QUOTE]Remove the extra free throws and all you would see is Durant taking an extra shot or two a game. His ppg would stay the same and his fg% might drop from like 50.6 to like 50.3. [/QUOTE]

Durant is averaging 28.3 on 64.4%. At Anthony's foul rate he'd be at 25.4 on 61.9%. If you account for the extra (approximate)1.43 possessions, you're looking at 26.2 on 59.7%.

*On an unrelated note, why are we still using approximated TS% when we seemingly have the play by play data to get a more accurate figure?

[QUOTE]Is Durant only a good scorer because of his fta.[/QUOTE]
Of course not. He's one of the best scorers I've ever seen.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]It also takes him up another fga per game. The ratio remains the same, which is a more indicative stat than just raw fta.



Why are you so open to the idea of equalizing minutes, and yet so opposed to the idea of equalizing shot attempts? Equalizing shot attempts is a lot more meaningful.



For me personally, this is the biggest factor I see in guys like Lebron and Anthony not really getting the calls they should. Lebron, and to a lesser extent, Anthony, are very good at powering through contact at the rim and still putting up a decent shot.



Durant is averaging 28.3 on 64.4%. At Anthony's foul rate he'd be at 25.4 on 61.9%. If you account for the extra (approximate)1.43 possessions, you're looking at 26.2 on 59.7%.

*On an unrelated note, why are we still using approximated TS% when we seemingly have the play by play data to get a more accurate figure?


Of course not. He's one of the best scorers I've ever seen.[/QUOTE]

Simple. Minutes should be equal...what you do with the time on the court is up in the air. FGA do not equal fta. The two leaders in free throw attempts this year take much less fga than Melo. It is a factor, but it doesn't mean enough.

Minutes played should be even. That is just common sense.

My god people. Melo takes 4 more shots per game from 16 feet and beyond. Stop acting like those matter at all. Those are just more bad shots that Durant has chosen not to take. Instead, Durant tries to get fouled on possessions in which Melo is setting for a long jumper. That is why Durant's free throws are higher and his fga are lower. Tries to get fouled more, better at getting fouled, settles for less bad shots.

1.5 more free throws per game on even time on the court is just not nearly enough to warrant the bitching. And that is before we even talk about techs and the extra 1.5 free throws the thunder take per qtr...

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Yes. The notion that free throw attempts are only impacted by field goal attempts is non sense to begin with. But even if that were true...people still can't grasp that Durant takes better shots (doesn't settle) and is just better at drawing fouls.

Oh my god. Melo takes 4 more shots per game. Unfortunately what they don't realize is that Melo is worse at drawing fouls and settles for bad shots way more often

And then nobody can even give their opinion on how much more Durant should be shooting at the line if all things were equal.

So I'll try it that way. Durant, Kobe, and Melo all take 20 shots a game. How many more free throws should Durant shoot per game?[/QUOTE]


D Mavs...I wish i could just keep my mouth closed about sports but i can't help. If people would apply the same logic that they do in everyday life to basketball then everyone would see things much clearer instead of the distorted view i see fans on this board have. Players fans are the worst they are usually the ones that lack objectivity of any kind.

If teams were allowed to be physical with Durant like they are with LeBron he would be hindered greatly.

Durant is just such a scrawny twig that any contact you make with him looks excessive when in reality it's just because he's so frail.

[QUOTE=toooo][B]Every superstar gets superstar fouls, but KD's are ridiculous. Anyone can see it. Some of you are in denial clearly.
[/B]
I used to really enjoy watching KD play but it has gone downhill this season. I don't think it is entertaining to watch someone shoot free throws. All he has to do is flail his arms a bit and it's a foul.[/QUOTE]
Remember the Kobe foul at the end of the Kings game where nobody even touched him? People went freaking crazy about that. That's not unusual at all by KD standards. I constantly see him just dribbling near the top of the key and the whistle blows out of the blue. I'm like "what the hell did I miss?". When they show the replay, there was literally nothing. I'm absolutely lost as to why they randomly blowed their whistle.

My biggest problem with OKC is that the refs make it VERY clear that the opposing team is NOT going to be allowed to play the same defense as hacking-ass OKC.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Remember the Kobe foul at the end of the Kings game where nobody even touched him? People went freaking crazy about that. That's not unusual at all by KD standards. I constantly see him just dribbling near the top of the key and the whistle blows out of the blue. I'm like "what the hell did I miss?". When they show the replay, there was literally nothing. I'm absolutely lost as to why they randomly blowed their whistle.

My biggest problem with OKC is that the refs make it VERY clear that the opposing team is NOT going to be allowed to play the same defense as hacking-ass OKC.[/QUOTE]

The problem with first-hand accounts like this is that it's hard to eliminate confirmation bias. You tend to remember things that confirm your beliefs and you forget those that dispel them. Unless you sit there and document every foul call on Durant over a large enough sample size of games, saying things like "I see him get to the line on BS fouls all the time" means nothing.

I watch Knicks games all the time and I feel like half the calls against Melo are bullshit. But that's because I don't care to remember the ones where he actually gets clobbered.

You need to back it up with something quantitative and substantive. That's what DMavs is saying.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I understand all that and I don't think really any of your post refutes what I'm saying. In fact, I agree with a lot of it. Our difference is essentially that you don't think Durant deserves it...while I think he has a skill/ability that gets him to the line more often. Really, you do to, you just don't like it.

Durant has jumped up his free throws this year because he's trying to get to the line more. It's obvious watching him play. He's cut down on long jumpers and threes....he's taking 1 less three and 1 less long jumper per game. So his fga are really the same in terms of your fga vs fta rate theory. He's just removed two bad shots a game. But the main thing is that he's trying to get to the line more. That is the difference between Harden/Durant and Melo/Kobe...the first pairing plays to get fouled more often. I think we can all agree on that...and it's something that Durant, at least imo, has been trying to do all year to become more efficient...and he has. So I don't think it's crazy to see a player go to the line roughly 1 more time per game when said player is trying to do that.

I didn't say I could prove anything. I said that logic leads you to a few things;

Minutes evened up takes Melo up .3 fta per game
The bonus thing has some impact. We don't know how much, but it definitely matters that the Thunder spend more time in the bonus and shoot 1.5 more free throws per qtr....
Techs matter. Who knows how much, but even if it were just 20 or 25 extra a year...that makes up .3 per game roughly

So, my point, is that it's a marginal difference...which you claimed otherwise solely based on fga. That was my beef. Even if you conservatively take the above into account. You are going from a 1.8 difference to 1.0 difference per game...and that has nothing to do with the players...just situations.

Then you said that Durant was better at drawing fouls. That is why I asked how much better. Because if he's 20 percent better...that could easily lead to an extra free throw or two a game.

So if you put them in similar team situations and you'd see roughly a 1 free throw difference per game...and Durant is better. I don't see the big deal. And that is just Melo. Kobe shoots 2 less shots per game than melo...so the margins are even smaller on that comparison.

If you went solely by fga...then Durant would be shooting at a much higher rate, but that metric is merely one of many factors and you treated it as the only one...or at least the main one. And the evidence just doesn't show that. Just like shots at the rim...they matter, but not nearly as much as you say given the evidence.

How is 8.4 still excessive? That would mean Durant goes to the line .4 more times a game than Melo. If you admit Durant is better at getting to the line...I don't see how a mere .8 difference on free throws is that big of a deal.

But honestly...the whole fga thing skewed the debate.

Here is the simple truth that honestly doesn't need much context. In the same number of minutes played per game. Durant shoots about 1.5 more free throws per game. Which is exactly within the normal range for a player you claim is better at getting to the line and, in my opinion, plays to get to the line more than Melo does.

Factor in things like techs and the bonus...and you shrink the number further.

Now, if you don't think Durant is better at getting to the line...then you would have more of reason to take your position. But it seemed to me that you agreed he was and just thought he got there too often based on a fga vs fta rate that is inherently flawed and missing way too much to solely go by.

And I never said Durant doesn't get the benefit of some calls for his frame and all the things you said. All of those things go into making him better at getting to the line. He uses them to his advantage. That is like saying Lebron dunks so often because of his size and strength...well...yes...he uses what he has to his advantage. Durant is tall, long, and skinny...and doesn't absorb contact the same way Melo does. And he combines all of that with selling calls more often and better.

So I'm stuck still being confused. Said player plays more minutes, shoots more techs, his team is in the bonus more often, tries to get to the line more often, and is better at selling calls...and it is unreasonable for said player to take roughly .9 more trips to the line per game?

I don't see the big deal. You watch any Thunder or Knicks game....and you are going to see Durant on the court 1.5 more minutes per game...and watch him take 1.8 more free throws per game. Which is going to the line .9 more times per game on average. That just isn't a big enough gap to warrant the outrage. Remove the extra free throws and all you would see is Durant taking an extra shot or two a game. His ppg would stay the same and his fg% might drop from like 50.6 to like 50.3. So I just don't see the issue. The only time this really would be a problem would be if you thought Durant should only be shooting like 6 free throws a game. But you think he should be shooting, i'm assuming, around 8 a game.

And that was the point of this thread. Is Durant only a good scorer because of his fta. If Durant and Melo shot the same percentage from the line, Durant would be getting 1.6 more ppg than Melo from the line.[/QUOTE]

Even if we exclude FGA. And to some extent that's valid(not completely though because Durant draws fouls on jumpers too) but we don't need to go in circles about that. It's still almost 2 extra FTA per game. And he's tried to draw fouls for years, and also gotten a significant amount questionable calls for quite some time. I remember Kevin Garnett saying something about this in 2010.

Even if we exclude FGA. And to some extent that's valid(not completely though because Durant draws fouls on jumpers too) but we don't need to go in circles about that. It's still almost 2 extra FTA per game. Which is really big difference when talking about averages. And he's tried to draw fouls for years, and also gotten a significant amount questionable calls for quite some time. I remember Kevin Garnett saying something about this in 2010.

I don't agree with these sorts of adjustments either, especially per minute adjustments which are very flawed. And until we have stats for the technical fouls, it's impossible to make any sort of adjustment there. I doubt that would be much of a difference either.

I will concede certain things such as Durant's length giving him an advantage as far as drawing fouls going to the basket, and that he uses his body better to sell these. Melo doesn't always do this, although Melo is quite good at getting players to go for his pump fake when taking mid-range shots.

You admitted Durant's frame gives him an advantage, but that's not a skill, and being skinny doesn't make the foul any more deserved. I don't think it's a conspiracy, just that the refs are constantly fooled by that, and how it looks at times when he twists his body as his shot is getting contested and misses a shot most expect him to make.

Selling the calls is smart, but it doesn't mean he's actually getting fouled on all of those plays. That's my point. He's not the only one guilty of this. You brought up Harden and Martin as well.

It's not just about the numbers either. When I watch both play I see players allowed to Melo really physically, and I just don't see the same applied to Durant. Don't you think there's a reason so many people talk about Durant getting generous calls?

I never agreed with the opinion that Durant is only a good scorer because of that. In fact, I said that earlier. Nobody worth listening would suggest Durant is just a product of the refs, or that he's anything less than an elite scorer regardless of the calls. All you have to do is look at the facts that he's an elite shooter from everywhere and can catch and shoot, or shoot off the dribble, move without the ball and handle the ball very well for a 6'10" player. I'm not ignorant to these things and wouldn't take those things away from Durant.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Simple. Minutes should be equal...
[/QUOTE]
Why should minutes be equalized but not FGA? At least equalizing FGA gives you a better picture of a player's ability to get to the line. Equalizing minutes does almost nothing, as minutes played have no (obvious)bearing on the frequency with which a player gets to the line; all they do is increase or decrease the raw totals.

[QUOTE]The two leaders in free throw attempts this year take much less fga than Melo.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, that's the point. Those two players are much better at getting to the line than Anthony or Lebron. That's what sparked this debate in the first place.

[QUOTE]Minutes played should be even. That is just common sense.[/QUOTE]
Common sense or not, it's all the same, so I guess I don't really see the point. That's part of what makes the ratio a more worthwhile statistic than just the raw number.

[QUOTE]My god people. Melo takes 4 more shots per game from 16 feet and beyond. Stop acting like those matter at all. [/QUOTE]
Can't the opposite be said of Lebron and Durant? You make a good point here for one comparison, yet you shoot yourself in the foot for another.

Durant is the most kid-gloves reffed player in the NBA. It is what it is. The refs make it VERY clear to the opposing teams defense to "BACK THE FCUK OFF". We all watch the game. We all know it's true.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Even if we exclude FGA. And to some extent that's valid(not completely though because Durant draws fouls on jumpers too) but we don't need to go in circles about that. It's still almost 2 extra FTA per game. And he's tried to draw fouls for years, and also gotten a significant amount questionable calls for quite some time. I remember Kevin Garnett saying something about this in 2010.

Even if we exclude FGA. And to some extent that's valid(not completely though because Durant draws fouls on jumpers too) but we don't need to go in circles about that. It's still almost 2 extra FTA per game. Which is really big difference when talking about averages. And he's tried to draw fouls for years, and also gotten a significant amount questionable calls for quite some time. I remember Kevin Garnett saying something about this in 2010.

I don't agree with these sorts of adjustments either, especially per minute adjustments which are very flawed. And until we have stats for the technical fouls, it's impossible to make any sort of adjustment there. I doubt that would be much of a difference either.

I will concede certain things such as Durant's length giving him an advantage as far as drawing fouls going to the basket, and that he uses his body better to sell these. Melo doesn't always do this, although Melo is quite good at getting players to go for his pump fake when taking mid-range shots.

You admitted Durant's frame gives him an advantage, but that's not a skill, and being skinny doesn't make the foul any more deserved. I don't think it's a conspiracy, just that the refs are constantly fooled by that, and how it looks at times when he twists his body as his shot is getting contested and misses a shot most expect him to make.

Selling the calls is smart, but it doesn't mean he's actually getting fouled on all of those plays. That's my point. He's not the only one guilty of this. You brought up Harden and Martin as well.

It's not just about the numbers either. When I watch both play I see players allowed to Melo really physically, and I just don't see the same applied to Durant. Don't you think there's a reason so many people talk about Durant getting generous calls?

I never agreed with the opinion that Durant is only a good scorer because of that. In fact, I said that earlier. Nobody worth listening would suggest Durant is just a product of the refs, or that he's anything less than an elite scorer regardless of the calls. All you have to do is look at the facts that he's an elite shooter from everywhere and can catch and shoot, or shoot off the dribble, move without the ball and handle the ball very well for a 6'10" player. I'm not ignorant to these things and wouldn't take those things away from Durant.[/QUOTE]


So we agree on everything essentially....except I don't think 1.8 free throws a game difference is a big deal...and you do.

I agree that we need the numbers on everything, but my point was that shooting more techs and spending more time in the bonus matters. Especially when I'd imagine Durant gets more off the ball fouls because he's such a great shooter and players have to stay attached to him.

Of course Melo and Kobe can shoot, but Durant is on another level as a shooter. So when you combine that kind of shooting with his ability to put the ball on the floor...you are going to see a lot of fouls.

And then if you factor in what we agreed upon...that he's better at drawing fouls and he tries to do it more often...then you get what you have.

Being skinny and frail is not a skill. I never said it was....I said Durant uses that to his advantage. No different than Melo using his strength around the rim when he rebounds his own misses. A guy like Durant wouldn't be as good at that because he'd get bumped off his spot more.

I think you enter a very dangerous area when you start to try and breakdown a player acting like what type of body and athleticism they possess isn't part of their game.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]Why should minutes be equalized but not FGA? At least equalizing FGA gives you a better picture of a player's ability to get to the line. Equalizing minutes does almost nothing, as minutes played have no (obvious)bearing on the frequency with which a player gets to the line; all they do is increase or decrease the raw totals.


Exactly, that's the point. Those two players are much better at getting to the line than Anthony or Lebron. That's what sparked this debate in the first place.


Common sense or not, it's all the same, so I guess I don't really see the point. That's part of what makes the ratio a more worthwhile statistic than just the raw number.


Can't the opposite be said of Lebron and Durant? You make a good point here for one comparison, yet you shoot yourself in the foot for another.[/QUOTE]


Easy. Nobody is making you take shots when you are on the court...and fga are not a direct correlation to fta...as I showed. Minutes being equal simply give the players the same chances to be on the court. I'm not saying minutes determine fta...but that it gives the players the same amount of time on the court. It should be obvious why that should be equal.

streak killers

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Easy. Nobody is making you take shots when you are on the court...and fga are not a direct correlation to fta...as I showed. Minutes being equal simply give the players the same chances to be on the court. I'm not saying minutes determine fta...but that it gives the players the same amount of time on the court. It should be obvious why that should be equal.[/QUOTE]

That's not the point. The point is that equalizing minutes does nothing but increase or decrease the raw totals. You addressed none of the points I made.

Can you imagine if LeBron got half as many FTs as Durant?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]and fga are not a direct correlation to fta[/QUOTE]

This statement just shows a lack of understanding.