Explain to me why Rose didn't deserve the 2011 MVP

[QUOTE=NumberSix]
There's no possible argument that "Rose outplayed LeBron". It's a ridiculous statement with no basis in fact.[/QUOTE]

Sure there is.


Before Lebron came to Miami, they were the 6th best defensive team in the league, under spo, and had a defensive rating, of 104.

After they added James they only improved to the 5th best defense in the league and went from 104... to 103.5.

A .5 difference in defensive rating and one spot up in rank. And thats with Bosh coming over too, who was a huge upgrade from their previous big men.


Offensively, James is more efficient, yes.. but he wasnt asked to carry as much offensive burden as Rose was. He had the best perimeter slasher/playmaker in the league and a perrenial allstar 20/10 big man on his side. Rose had no one to relieve offensive pressure but took it opun himself to carry the load offensively in the regular season.

The points/assists part of it are almost identical. Lebron scores a bit more while Rose dishes more dimes(and to vastly inferior teammates).


The biggest knock on Lebrons offense is this...

He went 2-12 on game winning shots and passed up a whole bunch more for fear of taking them. The pressure got to him in that first year dealing with all the criticism from the decision and he was scared shitless, missing everything in the clutch.

Hard games he posted ridiculous statlines throughout, were thrown away in the waning minutes of the game with his erratic, nervous play. That resulted directly in a whole handful of losses. What do the stats matter when youre throwing games away after accumulating them?


Meanwhile, per 82games.com, Rose was the clutchest player in the league in 2011 and was what 4-4 on GWs? He was single handedly winning the Bulls games where there defense was keeping the game 65-65 but the team offense was at a halt.

Chris Paul sets teammates up and goes on an occasional scoring binge.. but he doesnt get the bulls by miami. There was no one for him to pass to.:oldlol:


Interesting statistic.. the sortable clutch stats show how many of your 4th quarter buckets are assisted or not. Here are a few superstars.,

Durant 57%
Dirk 39%
Kobe 27%
Lebron 23%



Rose 11%:roll:


He was literally carrying the team in fourth quarters completely by himself. Thats hard to replace. And CERTAINLY not something 2011 Lebron could do lol.. we have first hand evidence of the opposite.

Easier to replace Lebrons 4 extra rebounds most of which result from miamis gang defensive rebounding which another player could snatch up, or his efficiency which means nothing if hes going to throw the game away in the end anyways.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]
So when Isiah gets credit for leading title teams as the 7th best defender on a defensive team its fine. A defensive team with the DPOY, 2 guys who led the league in rebounding, 2 all stars who are neither of those first 2 and a guy called the Microwave.
[/QUOTE]

A big part of this is that these data sets and the understanding we have on the effectiveness players have on the game are exploding. We didn't used to have this level of information at our finger tips. So to say "so it was ok 20+ years ago it should be fine now" is disingenuous. And Dumars won as many FMVP as Isiah did.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]
Or we hating on Isiah too?
[/QUOTE]

How old do you think I am?

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]
When Rose wins with less help....he shouldnt get that credit.
[/QUOTE]

You keep saying this but the data is complete disagreement with you.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]
Player perhaps. One who took his otherwordly talent and had the worst season he had in years on a team with more help than hed ever had. Oscar robertson isnt Wilt or Russell. Bob Mcadoo isnt Kareem. They have down years or somehow fail to shine as bright as usual they dont get the MVP off their names.
[/QUOTE]

With Miller out essentially the entire year and with UD out as well the team had three players that weren't league min guys on the team. AND they had to completely change their games. And statistically it wasn't a bad year at all. He led the league in PER while Rose was 9th.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]
People really have to get off the media. Rose, Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Nash, Dirk, Paul, KG, and everyone else great is a media darling. More so when they win 60+ games in spectacular fashion.
[/QUOTE]

If you are suggesting that in 10-11 LeBron was a media darling you are delusional beyong all measure.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]
When Nash won there were head scratchers all around.

Nash gets it for a turnaround while shaq turns another team around. Dirk doesnt win...when he takes less talent than Nash had to what...59 wins? Improving his team...which Nash just left.

06?

Less.

2011 it was clear Rose would win. It isnt media love either. People act like the media screws someone and awards an MVP out of love yearly. Idiots claim it about Lebron.

Lebron won when he won because he won a hell of a lot of games and wasnt a letdown. Not media love.

Rose won because he won a hell of a lot of games and nobody saw it coming. Not media love.

Players, coaches, or fans would have voted Lebron as the winner of all 4 of his and Rose in 2011 too.

It was just...a usual MVP decision. And not a very hard one. 113 out of 121?

I dont think history will be that mad.

No 69 win Jordan getting snubbed here.

Lebron or Dwight wins it its one of the weakest MVPs in history anyway.[/QUOTE]

Nash was a far better ofensive player in both of his MVP seasons than DRose was last year.

And history already IS that mad.

[QUOTE=tpols]Before Lebron came to Miami, they were the 6th best defensive team in the league, under spo, and had a defensive rating, of 104.

After they added James they only improved to the 5th best defense in the league and went from 104... to 103.5.

A .5 difference in defensive rating and one spot up in rank. And thats with Bosh coming over too, who was a huge upgrade from their previous big men.

[/QUOTE]

So I stopped here.

How many players from 09-10 wer econtributors on the 10-11 team? The answer is 1. One player from the 09-10 team went on to play 1600 min (less than 19/gm). AND you are using raw def, rather than pace adjusted. And... well I'm just not going to argue with people whose arguments are this weak.

[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]So I stopped here.

How many players from 09-10 wer econtributors on the 10-11 team? The answer is 1. One player from the 09-10 team went on to play 1600 min (less than 19/gm). AND you are using raw def, rather than pace adjusted. And... well I'm just not going to argue with people whose arguments are this weak.[/QUOTE]
lol no one cares where you stopped or what you say. Youre an obvious stat nerd who gets caught up in solely using advanced measures to pass judgement as if basketball was a science experiment

I couldnt give less of a fvck

[QUOTE=tpols]Sure there is.


Before Lebron came to Miami, they were the 6th best defensive team in the league, under spo, and had a defensive rating, of 104.

After they added James they only improved to the 5th best defense in the league and went from 104... to 103.5.

A .5 difference in defensive rating and one spot up in rank. And thats with Bosh coming over too, who was a huge upgrade from their previous big men.


Offensively, James is more efficient, yes.. but he wasnt asked to carry as much offensive burden as Rose was. He had the best perimeter slasher/playmaker in the league and a perrenial allstar 20/10 big man on his side. Rose had no one to relieve offensive pressure but took it opun himself to carry the load offensively in the regular season.

The points/assists part of it are almost identical. Lebron scores a bit more while Rose dishes more dimes(and to vastly inferior teammates).


The biggest knock on Lebrons offense is this...

He went 2-12 on game winning shots and passed up a whole bunch more for fear of taking them. The pressure got to him in that first year dealing with all the criticism from the decision and he was scared shitless, missing everything in the clutch.

Hard games he posted ridiculous statlines throughout, were thrown away in the waning minutes of the game with his erratic, nervous play. That resulted directly in a whole handful of losses. What do the stats matter when youre throwing games away after accumulating them?


Meanwhile, per 82games.com, Rose was the clutchest player in the league in 2011 and was what 4-4 on GWs? He was single handedly winning the Bulls games where there defense was keeping the game 65-65 but the team offense was at a halt.

Chris Paul sets teammates up and goes on an occasional scoring binge.. but he doesnt get the bulls by miami. There was no one for him to pass to.:oldlol:


Interesting statistic.. the sortable clutch stats show how many of your 4th quarter buckets are assisted or not. Here are a few superstars.,

Durant 57%
Dirk 39%
Kobe 27%
Lebron 23%



Rose 11%:roll:


He was literally carrying the team in fourth quarters completely by himself. Thats hard to replace. And CERTAINLY not something 2011 Lebron could do lol.. we have first hand evidence of the opposite.

Easier to replace Lebrons 4 extra rebounds most of which result from miamis gang defensive rebounding which another player could snatch up, or his efficiency which means nothing if hes going to throw the game away in the end anyways.[/QUOTE]

The gamewinning and clutch argument made here is perfectly valid.

[QUOTE=Human Error]1. Lebron
If you think it was unclear who Miami's best player was, you are an idiot.

2. Dwight
The best defensive player in the game who also happened to be the most efficient scorer in the paint.

Rose was given wat too much credit, the real reason that the Bulls overachieved at that season was the team defense designed and installed by a new coach.[/QUOTE]

If you think Wade and LeBron in 2011 wasn't a toss-up, you're an idiot. I'd actually lean towards Wade because of his Finals performance.

Rose was 2011 MVP, it was obvious. LeBron himself said it. Derrick had it wrapped up by like March. All this revisionist history from insecure LeBron stans. Shame on you.

[QUOTE]This. Replace Rose with Brandon Jennings and the Bulls are just as good.[/QUOTE]

I wonder if people read shit like that and are ashamed to have idiots like you on their side.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]I wonder if people read shit like that and are ashamed to have idiots like you on their side.[/QUOTE]

The answer is yes.

[QUOTE=tpols]lol no one cares where you stopped or what you say. Youre an obvious stat nerd who gets caught up in solely using advanced measures to pass judgement as if basketball was a science experiment

I couldnt give less of a fvck[/QUOTE]

I am analytically inclined but I have played, coached, and officiated at higher levels than most people around here have seen.

And welcome to my ignore list. No shame in it. Its a long list around here.

[IMG]http://oi41.tinypic.com/24evyux.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=tpols]Sure there is.


Before Lebron came to Miami, they were the 6th best defensive team in the league, under spo, and had a defensive rating, of 104.

After they added James they only improved to the 5th best defense in the league and went from 104... to 103.5.

A .5 difference in defensive rating and one spot up in rank. And thats with Bosh coming over too, who was a huge upgrade from their previous big men.
[/QUOTE]

Stopped reading here.

We found a guy that started watching the NBA during the 2011 season.

Jermaine O'Neal was absolutely fantastic for Miami in the 2010 regular season(where your getting the defensive rating from), especially in regards to protecting the rim. To say Chris Bosh was "a huge upgrade" is hilarious. The Heat had 4 guys on the team from the year before (Wade,Chalmers,Haslem(who missed nearly the entire year), and James Jones). Completely different personnel for the centers and forwards(the most important positions when it comes to defense).

Study up little boy, then you can return to the big leagues.

[QUOTE=TonyMontana][IMG]http://oi41.tinypic.com/24evyux.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Who cares about the playoffs when discussing this award? ... Dirk got royally owned in the first round of his MVP year, by lesser talent than the Heat, yet still deserved his award.

[QUOTE=TonyMontana]Stopped reading here.

We found a guy that started watching the NBA during the 2011 season.

Jermaine O'Neal was absolutely fantastic for Miami in the 2010 regular season(where your getting the defensive rating from), especially in regards to protecting the rim. To say Chris Bosh was "a huge upgrade" is hilarious. The Heat had 4 guys on the team from the year before (Wade,Chalmers,Haslem(who missed nearly the entire year), and James Jones). Completely different personnel for the centers and forwards(the most important positions when it comes to defense).

Study up little boy, then you can return to the big leagues.[/QUOTE]

tpols getting raped again in another debate :oldlol:

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]The gamewinning and clutch argument made here is perfectly valid.[/QUOTE]

Here is DRose's "Clutch" stats for the 10-11 season:

.402 FG%
.200 3%
47.8 pts (very nice but Kobe, LeBron, Dirk, Westbrook, and KD were all >40 and <50)
10.4 Reb (wow!)
9.8 Ast
[B]6.9 TO[/B]

The counting stats are high but the efficiency is terrible (esp with the TOs).

LeBron's "Horrible" clutch year was

.436/.238/45.1/11.2/4.9 w 3.8TO. He also led the league in FTA/clutch48 and shot 84% on them (which is really good, esp for him).

They are down but in large part because his usage was also way down as Wade was taking a LOT of the clutch shots that first year. And its probably still a comparable line to DRose's.

[QUOTE=Heavincent]Put up 25/8/4 and led his team to the best record in the East. How is that not MVP worthy? If not him, then who? It was debatable as to who the best player on the 2011 Heat even was, and they had an inferior record, so you can't give it to Lebron or Wade. Out west, you had Durant or Dirk maybe? I guess those guys had cases, but neither were quite as good in the regular season as Rose was imo.

I just see a lot of revisionist history from people (mainly Lebron homers). They act like it was a controversial MVP award or something, even though Rose was pretty much the consensus MVP by about March or so.[/QUOTE]

lebron cant win them every year.

[QUOTE=Mr Exlax]Take Rose off the Bulls and they look like the could make the playoffs. Take LeBron off Miami and they looked like they could make the playoffs. Take Dwight off Orlando and they make the lottery bro. That's MVP shit. Because his teammates weren't that good so that makes him less valuable? I've never understood why the team record counts so much. If that's the only reason somebody can come up with though that's crazy to me.[/QUOTE]


Unfortunately for you, your brain hasn't worked out that MVP's aren't judged on that criteria.

Rose will prove all the haters wrong. Can't wait.

[QUOTE=eurobum]Rose will prove all the haters wrong. Can't wait.[/QUOTE]
Deron Williams will be more relevant than Derrick Rose this upcoming season.

[QUOTE=Unbiased_one]PER is a crap stat because people use it as an efficiency stat (when it isn't), and parts of its construction make no sense.

OWS is actually a reasonably logical box-score generated measure of total offensive contribution (the negative being that it's from a box-score), but DWS is BS as far as I'm concerned.

RAPM is an adjusted plus minus stat which is for me the best single measure of a player's contribution to his team (there is also something called XRAPM which also factors in box-score contributions but I don't think it's as good for that precise reason).[/QUOTE]

Help me out. Rose's team usually had a blow out with the starting unit on many a night and his plus minus really was really affected by this. If you think there were five players that had a better year than Rose in '11 regular season then you are bordline dementia. Chris Paul??? Really?

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Deron Williams will be more relevant than Derrick Rose this upcoming season.[/QUOTE]


Troll harder, you're slippin'

[QUOTE=NumberSix]This. Replace Rose with Brandon Jennings and the Bulls are just as good.

When you look at guys like Deng, Noah, Asik, Korver, Gibson, Boozer and so on, its almost unbelievable how stacked that roster was with nothing but quality players. Replace Rose and put a CP3 on that roster, that's a chip.


I'm yet to hear a single argument other than team success for rose to deserve MVP.[/QUOTE]
Boozer didn't know the plays in the playoffs and missed a lot of games. Noah played well below his potential in the few games he did play. Korver's shot was garbage after the allstar break. Gibson wasn't bad but he wasn't a starter. Deng was consistent. But unbelievably stacked is a joke... Nobody in the top ten of anything. Nobody had a chance at a second team. Nobody made third team. Asik left and didn't do anything. Gibson is ok.

CP3??? I love his play and he's above good in seemingly every category. But did you look at that Clipper's team? No way does Rose play on that team and they do not have the best record in the league. Same with Westbrook's team last year as well. Their talent, skill and athletism was much much better than the Bulls and their responsibility was waay less than Rose's. The Bulls had little skill and remember Korver's shot went kaput after the allstar break. There wasn't one other creative player on the team. Deng was athletic but that was it. They were not a team of grey hounds. Had severe trouble executing out of a trap which is something they all should have learned ten years prior. Their offensive execution was incredibly basic.

The only fans that don't think Rose didn't deserve the MVP are butthurt Miami fans/Lebron stans. Since when is 25 and 8 and the best record in the league not MVP worthy? Please get Lebron's dick outta your mouths.

[QUOTE=longtime lurker]The only fans that don't think Rose didn't deserve the MVP are butthurt Miami fans/Lebron stans. Since when is 25 and 8 and the best record in the league not MVP worthy? Please get Lebron's dick outta your mouths.[/QUOTE]

Really its crazy. If Lebron had won it that year and then had that massive melt down it would have been the most catastrophic let down in sports.

[QUOTE=longtime lurker]The only fans that don't think Rose didn't deserve the MVP are butthurt Miami fans/Lebron stans. Since when is 25 and 8 and the best record in the league not MVP worthy? Please get Lebron's dick outta your mouths.[/QUOTE]
There are plenty who thought D12 should have won. And he probably should have IMO.

[QUOTE=RRR3]There are plenty who thought D12 should have won. And he probably should have IMO.[/QUOTE]
Rose had no case whatsoever. Melo winning in 2013 would have been less of a fcuk up.

I would've went with Wade (admittedly a huge fan), Dirk, or Dwight instead, but I don't have a problem with Rose winning. I don't think he was a great pick, but he wasn't a bad one either.

TBH I'm going with Wade on the basis of his playoffs too, it's probably Dirk, Dwight, or Rose. LeBron was almost as good as Wade that season (again, playoffs as tiebreaker, so it's not applicable here) so I guess neither could've won.

Both Lebron and Derrick Rose had lets humiliate Dwight Howard days and I think that really affected his getting votes.

I though DH had a case but Lebron killed it. Lebron had some issue with the GM or President, and went into Orlando and gave it to them hard - I forgot the stat line but it was a monster game. It had to be humiliating and the team was busted up as a result. Mid-season the insulted GM said wow, these wimps just let Lebron come into town talk about their boss and not even whisper back at him.

Then with playoff position taking shape Rose comes into town and takes more shots in the paint against Orlando than Dwight takes against them. To boot, DH gets suspended for the next game so Chicago gained two full games on Orlando in one game and took them out of the race for top seed. After March 1st DH lost ground everyday til the end of the season to every other contender - mostly due to his inability to corral his new teammates. His lack of leadership hyped Derrick Rose's most impressive leadership. While I was hyping it back then, its certainly standout among the superstars now and since then.

You can't be MVP when contenders humiliate you, get your team busted up and then you are a non-factor when it matters most. And then show no leadership when other players dis your executives and no leadership when crunch time came either. DH was an impressive player but by no means could he be taken as a key player in the league. Even with his own team he meant very little.

[QUOTE=RRR3]There are plenty who thought D12 should have won. And he probably should have IMO.[/QUOTE]

Yes and most of those people just happen to be Lebron stans or Miami fans. And apparently D12 wasn't in the running that seriously considering he only received 3 first place votes. And his team finished with a 10th place record in the league over all. I don't see how he was more deserving than Rose.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Both Lebron and Derrick Rose had lets humiliate Dwight Howard days and I think that really affected his getting votes.

I though DH had a case but Lebron killed it. Lebron had some issue with the GM or President, and went into Orlando and gave it to them hard - I forgot the stat line but it was a monster game. It had to be humiliating and the team was busted up as a result. Mid-season the insulted GM said wow, these wimps just let Lebron come into town talk about their boss and not even whisper back at him.

Then with playoff position taking shape Rose comes into town and takes more shots in the paint against Orlando than Dwight takes against them. To boot, DH gets suspended for the next game so Chicago gained two full games on Orlando in one game and took them out of the race for top seed. After March 1st DH lost ground everyday til the end of the season to every other contender - mostly due to his inability to corral his new teammates. His lack of leadership hyped Derrick Rose's most impressive leadership. While I was hyping it back then, its certainly standout among the superstars now and since then.

You can't be MVP when contenders humiliate you, get your team busted up and then you are a non-factor when it matters most. And then show no leadership when other players dis your executives and no leadership when crunch time came either. DH was an impressive player but by no means could he be taken as a key player in the league. Even with his own team he meant very little.[/QUOTE]

This is longest bullshit post I've ever seen

Another thing about Dwight and his leadership factor: When playing Sacramento the coach takes him off of DMC, a rookie, in a key game. DMC torches Orlando and the game is very close throughout. Dwight doesn't say let me guard him. Here he is the defensive player of the year, with maybe two tough guards at his position in the league, and a rookie is decimating the team and getting 26 or 28 points on Orlando.

Unless Rose got into very early foul trouble which might not have happened, he guarded every PG himself and would have told Thibes let me guard him without question. Westbrook didn't guard Rose, but Rose guarded Westbrook. There was not one PG the entire season that could say that got off on Rose. And the PG position was loaded. He outplayed them all and held them to impressive shooting percentages across the line (Nash, Rondo, Derron Williams were hit hardest).

[QUOTE=KyrieTheFuture]This is longest bullshit post I've ever seen[/QUOTE]

I concur. And the fact that he seems to hold D12 responsible for guarding All-NBA PGs I can see why he doesn't believe he should have won.

[QUOTE=KyrieTheFuture]This is longest bullshit post I've ever seen[/QUOTE]
I gather you just learned how to read anyway. One day when you grow up you will know how to present your thoughts. Please refute something or the BS that fills you will pile up.

[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]I concur. And the fact that he seems to hold D12 responsible for guarding All-NBA PGs I can see why he doesn't believe he should have won.[/QUOTE]

D12 was suppose to hold a rookie center - that was made very [B]very[/B] [SIZE="4"]very [/SIZE]clear. Rose guarded a much more talented group of offensive minded guards than DH guarded centers - where not one center was polished offensively. And when he does get one, a rookie at that, he doesn't have the leadership to say I got this. Rose fully respected Thibes but it wasn't going to go down like that.

Aren't you the guy that said Rose was the 8th best defensive player on the team??? Rose was the best backcourt defender on the team. The team was top three in perimeter defense. No elite opposing PG came off on Chicago the whole year. It doesn't get anymore thorough than that. I know I can't think of any SG much less a PG that held a healthy Wade like Rose did. So to say Rose wasn't a key part of their defense is major crap. Third leading PG in rebounds too. Which is higher than Noah and Boozer at their positions. Rose was definitely first or second among PG in blocks as well. Nobody else on the team was ranked among the top in their position. Name me somebody else at their position that held down the elite like Rose did at PG that year? DH didn't even take the assignment.

Please refute what I am saying.

I think Rose really deserved that MVP. Then again, I also think Nash deserved those 2 MVPs he has, so I guess I don't follow popular opinion.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Another thing about Dwight and his leadership factor: When playing Sacramento the coach takes him off of DMC, a rookie, in a key game. DMC torches Orlando and the game is very close throughout. Dwight doesn't say let me guard him. Here he is the defensive player of the year, with maybe two tough guards at his position in the league, and a rookie is decimating the team and getting 26 or 28 points on Orlando.

Unless Rose got into very early foul trouble which might not have happened, he guarded every PG himself and would have told Thibes let me guard him without question. Westbrook didn't guard Rose, but Rose guarded Westbrook. There was not one PG the entire season that could say that got off on Rose. And the PG position was loaded. He outplayed them all and held them to impressive shooting percentages across the line (Nash, Rondo, Derron Williams were hit hardest).[/QUOTE]
More of dat ETHER

[QUOTE=Pointguard]D12 was suppose to hold a rookie center - that was made very [B]very[/B] [SIZE="4"]very [/SIZE]clear. Rose guarded a much more talented group of offensive minded guards than DH guarded centers - where not one center was polished offensively. And when he does get one, a rookie at that, he doesn't have the leadership to say I got this. Rose fully respected Thibes but it wasn't going to go down like that.

Please refute what I am saying.[/QUOTE]

You talking about one regular season game? You giving D12 crap because of one game bro? Damn lol.

Ah hell just read your Username. NM lol.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Both Lebron and Derrick Rose had lets humiliate Dwight Howard days and I think that really affected his getting votes.[/QUOTE]

LeBron with that 51 point game sure, but Rose didn't humiliate Dwight.

[QUOTE=Mr Exlax]You talking about one regular season game? You giving D12 crap because of one game bro? Damn lol.

Ah hell just read your Username. NM lol.[/QUOTE]
Leadership in the middle of March is critical at every game especially when you are MVP when MVP candidate Rose and co. just finished beating Orlando team twice in practically one game. And increased their lead by six games in three weeks. Name me the one game all season long where Rose wasn't up to that task. Dwight Howard gets maybe two hard assignments ALL MONTH.

I'm giveing DH crap over letting Lebron come into his house talking about his boss. Then the DMC game and then the Bulls game where Rose scored and took more shots in the paint than him and then his lack of urgency in March and April and his dumb play of getting suspended for two games in the stretch. So about 12 games in critical March/April and the one that got his GM or President upset in January.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]LeBron with that 51 point game sure, but Rose didn't humiliate Dwight.[/quote]
Maybe not. But Rose took more shots in the paint than DH did. DH was frustrated, got suspended for the next game and Orlando was no longer anything that Chicago had to worry about. Maybe not humiliation, but if you are confused as to who was stepping up and who was exiting stage left, its on you. One was holding center stage and it wasn't DH.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]1. Cherrypicking is not what you call counting every single game.

2. When I got to specific years it was because of you.

3. In the year you just mentioned....



They were on a 68 win pace with him.....

33 wins.

7 losses.

.825.

67.65 wins in 82.

You can pretend that playing at a pace equivalent of the 3rd best record of all time isnt much different from playing at a 3rd to 5th seed(depending on the year) pace.

Thats on you.

I find it rather different. Different like....being last years Heat record wise....or a little worse than Memphis?

Quite a bit larger than the difference between wins with and without a lot of MVPs. Id estimate...10-12 wins is a usual dropoff. Wilts 76ers....won 57. Jordans Bulls 55. Kareems bucks swapped him for a good 4 and won the same number of games. Oscars team I think was about the same. Rick Barry left and his team won I think 50-55 when he went to the ABA. Birds Celtics maybe from 55 to 42 is close? Great players dont tend to make as much of an impact on wins as one might assume.

Not on really good teams.[/QUOTE]
10-12 wins difference from an MVP player? Really?

Just take the rookie arrival of Chamberlain, Baylor, Robertson, Robinson, Jabbar, Bird, Duncan (slight cheat here with Robinson returning from injury).

Look at the drop off after the retirement of Magic, Robertson, Jordan ('98).

Look at what every metric estimates. The "strong" MVPs (i.e. those who actually are the best player, not best player on good/surprising team or "we're tiding of giving it to X so why not give it to ...") e.g. LeBron 2010 (his weakest MVP year stats wise) Hollinger EWA gives him 30.5 on the loose end, Win Shares gives him 18.5 on the mean end of the spectrum, Pelton WARP gave him 25.4 wins above that which a replacement level player would give).

The dropoffs cited are after trades in which whilst certainly not recieving equal value teams got multiple pieces, some quality ones. In Robertson's case they lost 3 more games but had Norm Van Lier and Tiny Archibald instead at the pg spot.

The non trade ones are Barry (not an MVP), and Jordan which is an odd one. A combination of the arrival of Kukoc, growth of Pippen (and Pippen being fresh after a significant down year following the Olympics), Horace Grant playing for a contract, an amazing coach doing a great job and the Bulls not really being as good as their record (their MoV accounting for their schedule should have won them 50 games).

Anyhow if you don't mind MVP being a good player on a good team/surprising team, or player who has high contextual value (rubbish backup, nobody else provides their specific skill or whatever) then Rose, like Unseld, Iverson, Cowens et al, is fine.

Personally I don't like it when it doesn't go to the best player, especially when the idea that they'd trade players (straight up, not looking long term or at injuries) before, during and after the season are all laughable.

Rose was a very good player that year. He just wasn't at the level I associate with MVP or playing as well James, Wade, Howard our Paul.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]This. Replace Rose with Brandon Jennings and the Bulls are just as good.

When you look at guys like Deng, Noah, Asik, Korver, Gibson, Boozer and so on, its almost unbelievable how stacked that roster was with nothing but quality players. Replace Rose and put a CP3 on that roster, that's a chip.


I'm yet to hear a single argument other than team success for rose to deserve MVP.[/QUOTE]
I'd agree with what DMavs posted. But come on. Not Jennings. Paul and they'd be better, Westbrook maybe just as good shot creating pgs and they'd get most of the value they got from Rose. But they wouldn't lose nothing by putting in a middling pg like Jennings was (and to a degree still is).