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[QUOTE=Dionysus]I'm guessing LeBron.
Greatest game 7 player of All Time. Has better Elimination game stats than Jordan and Kobe.
Also has that game 5 vs Pistons, his game 6 vs Celtics, his headband game, and his clutch closer game 7 that has gained him the same amount of titles Jordan had at age 28.[/QUOTE]
I'll take the player who simply doesn't allow a series to go 7 games.
[QUOTE=daily]The amount of history and context you had to ignore to to make this post is mind boggling.[/QUOTE]
Finals Numbers
95-96'. 27ppg 5reb 4ast 41%fg
97-98' 33ppg 4reb 2ast 42%fg (ball hog shotjacking chucker to the maximum:oldlol: )
Kobe-esqu numbers.:roll:
[QUOTE=Leviathon1121]I'll take the player who simply doesn't allow a series to go 7 games.[/QUOTE]
You talking about the loser Jordan who never got to a Finals in his first 6years? Or are you talking about the Jordan who had GOAT coach Phil Jackson and GOAT sidekick Scottie Pippen to help him win?
[QUOTE=Papaya Petee]LeBron Cavaliers? 2010-2011 Wade was the best player on the Heat and LeBron's chokejob cost them a ring.
In 2011-2012 Wade averaged 22\5\5 in the regular season on great efficiency, averaged 23\6\5 in the playoffs and 23\6\5 in the NBA Finals. That's LeBron being a one man team?
[B]in 2012-2013 when Wade was at his healthiest in the regular season he was the best player on the Heat for almost a 2 month stretch.[/B] 21\5\5 in the regular season on great efficiency.
Wade gets injured in the playoffs and all of a sudden he's a liability??[/QUOTE]
Watch the game and then come posting please.
I wish that a 26-29 year old MJ was in the league right now to absolutely shit down Bron's throat and send these little kiddies screaming to their moms. :oldlol:
It's not even a comparison between the two of them.
[QUOTE=Dionysus]You talking about the loser Jordan who never got to a Finals in his first 6years? Or are you talking about the Jordan who had GOAT coach Phil Jackson and [B]GOAT sidekick[/B] Scottie Pippen to help him win?[/QUOTE]
You mean the sidekick who was a Finals MVP himself?
[QUOTE=Papaya Petee]
in 2012-2013 when Wade was at his healthiest in the regular season he was the best player on the Heat for almost a 2 month stretch.
Wade gets injured in the playoffs and all of a sudden he's a liability??[/QUOTE]
Thats absurd. I like Wade. A LOT. But LeBron shot .641 from the field in February and I can't imagine what two month stretch you are coming up with that brings him even close to LeBron.
And yes, when you are -54 in the series for the NBA Finals you are a liability. He shouldn't have been playing.
[QUOTE=Eric Cartman]You mean the sidekick who was a Finals MVP himself?[/QUOTE]
So you're saying Wade is a better sidekick than Pippen?
Don't let an argument blow up in your face
[QUOTE=Dionysus]You talking about the loser Jordan who never got to a Finals in his first 6years? Or are you talking about the Jordan who had GOAT coach Phil Jackson and GOAT sidekick Scottie Pippen to help him win?[/QUOTE]
So much ignorance of context in this one post:facepalm: Really man, you need to stick to soccer, your basketball IQ is in negative territory.
When LeBron took the Cavs to the Finals in 07 as a youngster, it was something to applaud and give him credit for on it's face. But if you dig deeper, the EC was hot garbage that year, the defending champs Wade Heat were racked with injuries and were knocked out in tge first round by the baby Bulls. The Pacers, Nets and Pistons were done by this point and this is one year before the original big 3 hooked up in Boston. The East was so bad that the Cavs faced only one team with a winning record in the EC playoffs:oldlol: This is the reason the Cavs got merked in the Finals 4-0, they really shouldn't have been there in the first place.
Back in 86-89 when MJ was beasting and had no All Star teammates, he was facing a stacked EC, the Cavs and more importantly, the 86 Celtics and late 80s Detroit Pistons, two of the greatest teams in NBA history. Believe me, LeBron ain't leading his 07 Cavs past any of those teams:oldlol:
It's all about context you stat nerd, actually watching games helps. Stick to footy, mate.
[QUOTE=TheMan]Great point. I know you are anti Jordan but me as a Jordan fan, I always point out the fact that MJ was going up against absolute GOAT candidates like Bird/Magic for MVP in his early years...meanwhile LeBron's comp is DRose, DHoward, KD, CP3 or Melo.
Even in MVP competition, MJ is superior to LeBron:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
I'm actually impressed you didn't diminish the post but actually took it into consideration. I may be wrong about all Jordan stans, good to see some level headed fans.
I would necessarily diminish Lebron's MVP's. Early in his years he had to compete with an equally impressive group in Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe. Nash was an anomaly but you still can't diminish those accomplishments. You got to look at the bulk of Jordan's MVPs where he had to compete with the Malones, Barkleys, Hakeems, and Robinsons.
Although D12, Durant, CP3 don't look as impressive now, they haven't quite finish their careers to stamp their legacies.
Besides, MVP is a useless hardware voted based on opinion, otherwise you can't support the MVP argument then at the same time chastise it because guys like Nash and Rose won it because it's voted by the same criteria. If anything you can say even though Rose won it, Lebron was still a better player.
[QUOTE=Bandito]Is Lebron's jizz blinding your eyes? I don't see any ethering here except everyone gangbanging Montana.[/QUOTE]
He's using stats and facts. The only reason you deem it a troll thread is because the stats don't go your way.
@ The man, Jordan would never make the finals if he had Lebrons Cavalier squad. That is what puts Lebron > MJ in terms of player. MJ > Lebron in terms of accolades.
[QUOTE=funnystuff][B]He's using stats and facts. The only reason you deem it a troll thread is because the stats don't go your way. [/B]
@ The man, Jordan would never make the finals if he had Lebrons Cavalier squad. That is what puts Lebron > MJ in terms of player. MJ > Lebron in terms of accolades.[/QUOTE]
this right there is the problem with the Jordaneers.
Jordaneers treat facts like they were at the Jordan buffet. They overload their plates with the things they like and pass on the things that don't fit on their plate
[QUOTE=funnystuff]The man, Jordan would never make the finals if he had Lebrons Cavalier squad.[/QUOTE]
By which logic did you come to this conclusion?
[QUOTE=Eric Cartman]By which logic did you come to this conclusion?[/QUOTE]
Although it seems hypothetical, it's pretty much reasonable to say this would be a likely scenario. Not just saying Jordan, but for any basketball player with the exception of maybe Shaq, Wilt, Hakeem, or Kareem.
To say Jordan could have carried that squad to a finals is highly unlikely and a very validated statement.
[QUOTE=Eric Cartman]By which logic did you come to this conclusion?[/QUOTE]
:lol @ the idea of Jordan carrying a team like the Cavs to the Finals.
[QUOTE=DaHeezy]Although it seems hypothetical, it's pretty much reasonable to say this would be a likely scenario. Not just saying Jordan, but for any basketball player with the exception of maybe Shaq, Wilt, Hakeem, or Kareem.
To say Jordan could have carried that squad to a finals is highly unlikely and a very validated statement.[/QUOTE]
Eh...given how weak the East was at the time, I think there's some validity to it. But that's assuming Jordan would face the same or similar competition in the playoffs.
Not saying it'd be a guarantee, but I think there's some versions of Jordan that could get that Cavs team through that weak of an EC, and to the Finals.
[QUOTE=KG215]Eh...given how weak the East was at the time, I think there's some validity to it. But that's assuming Jordan would face the same or similar competition in the playoffs.
Not saying it'd be a guarantee, but I think there's some versions of Jordan that could get that Cavs team through that weak of an EC, and to the Finals.[/QUOTE]
That Cavs team is a mess minus Lebron. I find Jordan is in that similar mold as AI (not saying they're the same player) in which the team needs to have elite role players for him to thrive. Is he capable of carrying this team? Absolutely. But I don't think the team would strive had Jordan have to fill out roles as a facilitator, the primary and only defender, and have to work within the post, not to mention the coaching style.
carry the team? Likely, finals? Longshot.
[QUOTE=DaHeezy]Although it seems hypothetical, it's pretty much reasonable to say this would be a likely scenario. Not just saying Jordan, but for any basketball player with the exception of maybe Shaq, Wilt, Hakeem, or Kareem.
To say Jordan could have carried that squad to a finals is highly unlikely and a very validated statement.[/QUOTE]
07 Lebron wasn't that good relative to his other years
[QUOTE=Bandito]True but in my hypothetical situation I was only talking about game 6 of the 2011 finals, and not really about the results, but more of how they play. If MJ played in that game and lost, do you honestly believe the main reason behind it would be because he gave up ? Or because he got owned by a better team?[/QUOTE]
Ok, I'll give you that. I understand where you're coming from. I honestly don't think any alpha perimeter player would have been able to mesh with Wade quick enough or at all to win the title that year though. Him and Lebron maybe only made it that far the 1st year due to a pre existing friendship. I don't think Wade would have been as willing to share/hand over the reigns to any other star. Would have been an epic implosion I'd guess. Just a shot in the dark though.
[QUOTE=DaHeezy]That Cavs team is a mess minus Lebron. I find Jordan is in that similar mold as AI (not saying they're the same player) in which the team needs to have elite role players for him to thrive. Is he capable of carrying this team? Absolutely. But I don't think the team would strive had Jordan have to fill out roles as a facilitator, the primary and only defender, and have to work within the post, not to mention the coaching style.
carry the team? Likely, finals? Longshot.[/QUOTE]
It'd ultimately depend on what version of Jordan you pick, but there are versions (even pre-championship versions) of Jordan that were a better all-around/two-way player than 2007 LeBron.
how stupid and delusional are kids these days.:roll:
[QUOTE=Dionysus]:lol @ the idea of Jordan carrying a team like the Cavs to the Finals.[/QUOTE]
Prime Dominique Wilkins could carry the Cavs to the 2007 finals in the weak ass Eastern Conference.
[QUOTE=andgar923]
And then there's the most obvious reason as to why MJ didn't grab more rebounds, a reason so obvious a 10 year old will see it as such:
DIFFERENT POSITION
MJ's role is to guard the other wing players so defensively he's already further from the rim. He also has to chase down perimeter players and get position, they're also the first to get down the court and as a perimeter player he's supposed to protect until the bigs get down court.
Bron plays the point FORWARD position. And even tho his game is versatile he eventually has to guard players closer to the basket.
Yet, there's another reason why Bron has more rebounds
[QUOTE=Dionysus]I'm guessing LeBron.
Greatest game 7 player of All Time. Has better Elimination game stats than Jordan and Kobe.
Also has that game 5 vs Pistons, his game 6 vs Celtics, his headband game, and his clutch closer game 7 that has gained him the same amount of titles Jordan had at age 28.[/QUOTE]
Yeah LeBron might be the best player in NBA History when overcoming adversity.
Lets be real what real challenge did the Bulls have in the 90s when they won their titles?
[QUOTE=funnystuff]He's using stats and facts. The only reason you deem it a troll thread is because the stats don't go your way.
@ The man, Jordan would never make the finals if he had Lebrons Cavalier squad. That is what puts Lebron > MJ in terms of player. MJ > Lebron in terms of accolades.[/QUOTE]
1. Speculation, you say he can't, I say he can. Especially considering the EC in 07 was absolute dog shit.
2. From 86-89, the young Jordan led Bulls lost 3 out of those 4 times to the eventual NBA champions, the 86 Celtics and the repeat Pistons. They were losing to great teams, not also rans.
3. Considering that the East was really weak in 07, a Jordan led Cavs get to the Finals and IMO don't get swept...
basketball is a sport that naturally privileges players who plays closer to the rim and occupies the frontcourt because of its idosyncracies and structure. Naturally a shooting guard should have lesser impact on the game than a small forward or power forward. The fact that MJ was able to approximate Lebron's stats from the SG position while still allowing another SF to contribute to the team is significant in and of itself.
All stats needed to be weighted by positions when analyzing value added accounting for team composition.
[QUOTE=TonyMontana]
This is because your looking at those players in hindsight and you get to see how their entire career panned out. Guys like Durant, Rose are still in their early 20s. Their teams could win a string of titles and suddenly just because of that their going to be regarded extremely high.
The truth is Durant is already playing at an extremely level. If there wasn't a LeBron in the league he would get more credit.
Nearly 30 PPG on 50/40/90 splits along with 6'11 height and something like a 7'5 wingspan on defense? He is amazing, and you realize just how few guys have done something like that. He is on par with any individual player from the 90s that Jordan had to play against. AND he actually has a superstar teammate in his prime. Something very few of Jordans opponents had.
[/QUOTE]
It has nothing to do with hindsight. I know Durant will be an all time great and will start winning MVPs and take them away from Lebron going forward. But 21, 23, and 24 year old Durant was too young to start winning them. If you look through the history of the award, they don't usually start giving them to players until they are around 25+. There are a few exceptions like Jordan, Wilt, Lebron, Russell, and Rose, but most of them are top 10 all time material. Rose winning was just an anomaly, and never should have happened. It makes the award a complete joke imo.
Lebron's 2013 season was an all time great season as well, and would have won the award in just about any decade, but of the other 3, I think he would only win 1 of them if he were playing in the 1980s. Most of those seasons would be enough to beat out prime Bird's or Magic's years. Lebron's Cavs would not be winning 60+ games in the 1980s East, so that would take him out of the running much of the time. He's benefited quite a bit from playing in the East while it's been at it's lowest point ever compared to the West.
[QUOTE=TonyMontana]Here is the difference between LeBron and Jordan.
When Jordans Bulls lack interior defenders and rebounders, they become pretenders(As evidenced by Shaq/Horace shitting on them in 1995 when they had no great interior defenders/rebounders).
When LeBrons Heat lack interior defenders and rebounders, LeBron gets his ass in the post and starts getting 10+ boards and guarding David Wests. Because of LeBrons superior physical abilities he is more versatile and able to effect the game in more ways.
As it stands now LeBron is the only perimeter superstar in NBA History to win with a frontcourt that gets abused on a nightyly basis.
Don't even get me started on who is more valuable to their teams. :oldlol:
1993 Bulls with Jordan: [B]57-25[/B]
1994 Bulls w/o Jordan: [B]55-27[/B]
2010 Cavs with LeBron: [B]61-21[/B]
2011 Cavs w/o LeBron: [B]19- 63[/B]
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
Jordan only had to be his teams go to scorer....LeBron has to be his teams go to scorer ON TOP of main playmaker/ball handler, top rebounder, top perimeter defender, top post defender. You name it and LeBron is the best on the Heat at it. And hes still racking up rings. :oldlol:
[/QUOTE]
Well the Heat didn't face anything remotely close to Shaq/Horace so that point is not comparable.
Also the winning difference...in that case Ray Allen was more valuable than Jordan since Seattle lost many more games after he left?
[QUOTE=TonyMontana]Yeah LeBron might be the best player in NBA History when overcoming adversity.
Lets be real what real challenge did the Bulls have in the 90s when they won their titles?[/QUOTE]
Wht challlenge did the Heat had? A team with an average age of 24 and another team with an average age of 38?:roll: :roll: :roll:
Mj played against vets like the Lakers led Magic, Sonics, Jazz and the Blazers, all led by legends like Magic, the glove, the maillman and Stockton,and Drexler. All future and/or current HOF.
Because the 2010 CAVS and the 2011 Cavs were the exact same team minus Lebron :facepalm
The 2010 Cavs starting 5 minus Lebron played a combined 0 minutes together in 2011
In 2011 there was no Shaq, no Big Z, no Delonte, no JJ Hickson, no Danny Green, Andy V got hurt for the season 30 games in, Mo was hurt and traded 30 games in, no mike brown
So they lost their starting Center, their 6th man, their back up Center, their back up power forward, lost Andy V 30 games in on top of losing their big man depth they lost their head coach who had turned them into a defensive juggernaut.
Alot of other things happened other than losing Lebron
[QUOTE=STATUTORY]basketball is a sport that naturally privileges players who plays closer to the rim and occupies the frontcourt because of its idosyncracies and structure. Naturally a shooting guard should have lesser impact on the game than a small forward or power forward. The fact that MJ was able to approximate Lebron's stats from the SG position while still allowing another SF to contribute to the team is significant in and of itself.
All stats needed to be weighted by positions when analyzing value added accounting for team composition.[/QUOTE]
This, plus Jordan played much better off the ball, allowing his teammates to play better.
If Jordan's front court competition in 1995, aka Shaq & Horace, played in today's NBA, they'd be dominating even more than they did in the '90s, so mentioning that LBJ has done more with a lesser front court doesn't mean shit.
As a matter of fact, put Jordan's Bulls in the same playoff match-ups as LBJ's Heat. You think Roy Hibbert, a 7'2" C who can't even average 10 boards, would do as well against them in the ECF?
[QUOTE=DaHeezy]That Cavs team is a mess minus Lebron. I find Jordan is in that similar mold as AI (not saying they're the same player) in which the team needs to have elite role players for him to thrive. Is he capable of carrying this team? Absolutely. But I don't think the team would strive had Jordan have to fill out roles as a facilitator, the primary and only defender, and have to work within the post, not to mention the coaching style.
carry the team? Likely, finals? Longshot.[/QUOTE]
Ummm Lebron was an average defender and barely even played in the post at the time.
the only real difference and this is a fact that jordan never lost the finals
its stupid thing to say that a player loses a playoff round who cares about losing the playoffs?
some of the greatest players never even reach the finals for crying out loud..
that stupid argument is for kids that losing a playoff round is equal to losing a ring.
let lebron be one of the greatest in his era... but so far no one has passed MJ ...
[QUOTE=Bandito]
Mj played against vets like the Lakers led Magic, Sonics, Jazz and the Blazers, all led by legends like Magic, the glove, the maillman and Stockton,and Drexler. All future and/or current HOF.[/QUOTE]
-Kareem was retired and the Lakers were old/aged.
-If your going to talk shit about the Spurs team LeBron just beat, the Jazzs two stars (Stockton and Malone) were both 35 years old. :roll: This Jazz team was far from the best. They were much better in the 80s, but never made the Finals because the league was better then.
-Every other team had only one star(Glove, Drexler, Ewing) compared to the Bulls who had two MVP caliber players in MJ/Scottie along with Phil Jackson the greatest coach ever, and Rodman, the GOAT rebounder.
Sorry, but I'm more impressed with LeBron winning the 2012 Finals as the underdog against three future hall of famers in their prime(Durant,Westbrook,Harden)and the 2013 Finals where LeBron beat Duncan(still the best big in basketball), Prime Parker, Greg Popovich coached team despite poor performances from Wade/Bosh for most of the series.
[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]Because the 2010 CAVS and the 2011 Cavs were the exact same team minus Lebron :facepalm
The 2010 Cavs starting 5 minus Lebron played a combined 0 minutes together in 2011
In 2011 there was no Shaq, no Big Z, no Delonte, no JJ Hickson, no Danny Green, Andy V got hurt for the season 30 games in, Mo was hurt and traded 30 games in, no mike brown
So they lost their starting Center, their 6th man, their back up Center, their back up power forward, lost Andy V 30 games in on top of losing their big man depth they lost their head coach who had turned them into a defensive juggernaut.
Alot of other things happened other than losing Lebron[/QUOTE]
If LeBron stays Cleveland is still the premier contender in the East and winning 50+ games despite all of that. Noone wants to play on a Cleveland team that doesn't have LeBron. Thats the impact this guy has.
I think Jordan is the GOAT but i also have to say that tonymontana is making some good points unlike most people who are just trolling in this thread because they don't agree with him.
[QUOTE=Rose'sACL]I think Jordan is the GOAT but i also have to say that tonymontana is making some good points unlike most people who are just trolling in this thread because they don't agree with him.[/QUOTE]
What has the pro Jordan side stated that you consider trolling?
The difference is Jordan is 24-0 in series with HCA and 14-0 vs 50+ win teams while Lebron is 2-3 in series with HCA vs 50+ win teams. Not to mention one guy brought a franchise a dynasty that had never won anything prior to him arriving while the other joined forces with a guy in his city who won a title as the man already and gave that franchise it's first title and is playing with a guy who performs better than him in the finals as well in Wade. Not to mention one guy was never down 3-2 with HCA while the other guy lost 3 years in a row with it and was down in back to back years 3-2 with HCA.
And using the Cleveland and Chicago is inaccurate. The better example is the 1998 Bulls to the 1999 Bulls and the 2010 Cavs to the 2011 Cavs since neither team was in there prime and also each team lost its top players with Cleveland losing a 3x finals MVP winner as well.
The difference is that Jordan can only be somewhat slowed down by absolute GOAT level defenses because his skill-set is perfect. Meanwhile, LeBron can be severely contained or shut down by merely good defenses like the 2011 Mavs or 2013 Spurs, because of his mediocre and extremely inconsistent mid-range/shot and post-game. Also, Jordan was much less ball-dominant and a far better off-ball player, which game him greater portability and ways to attack defenses that LBJ simply doesn't have.
[QUOTE]Kareem was retired and the Lakers were old/aged.[/QUOTE]
How old were Magic, Worthy, Scott, Green, Divac, and Perkins?
[QUOTE]Sorry, but I'm more impressed with LeBron winning the 2012 Finals as the underdog against three future hall of famers in their prime(Durant,Westbrook,Harden)and the 2013 Finals where LeBron beat Duncan(still the best big in basketball), Prime Parker, Greg Popovich coached team despite poor performances from Wade/Bosh for most of the series.[/QUOTE]
What was so impressive about the Heats run? In 2012, they beat an old Boston Celtic team, then an inexperienced and green OKC Thunder squad. Then in 2013, they beat an the Bulls without their best player in Derrick Rose, needed seven games to dispatch the Pacers who didnt have their best player in Danny Granger, then needed seven games to beat an old Spurs squad.
Its posts like the one I just responded to that has you marked as a troll and threatening being banned.