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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=Go Getter]:rolleyes:
Cupcake penalties? People get suspended for games that results in the loss of thousands of dollars.
Hockey players are the only athletes that get a slap on the wrist for fighting.[/QUOTE]
You are not automatically penalized for leaving the dugout in a baseball brawl like you are for leaving the bench in the NBA. Major League Baseball continues to allow dugout clearing brawls to be apart of the game for some reason.
And for the thousandth time, fighting is apart of the sport historically/traditionally and within the rules of Hockey, and people still look at it negatively. As for perception, all you have to do is play hockey while not even being an enforcer or brawler, and people have stereotypes about you being some rugged toothless goon. Quit acting like hockey is looked at in some fashionable light.
Lastly I find it interesting that basketball is the only team sport I can think of off the top of my head where a team can commit a penalty and benefit from it. You can commit fouls in hope the other team misses the free throws in all sorts of different situations such as hack a Shaq, players going hard in the paint, and end of the game scenarios. How is committing penalties aka breaking the rules supposed to help you win? BECAUSE IT IS PART OF THE GAME.
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=Norcaliblunt]You are not automatically penalized for leaving the dugout in a baseball brawl like you are for leaving the bench in the NBA. Major League Baseball continues to allow dugout clearing brawls to be apart of the game for some reason.
And for the thousandth time, fighting is apart of the sport historically/traditionally and within the rules of Hockey, and people still look at it negatively. As for perception, all you have to do is play hockey while not even being an enforcer or brawler, and people have stereotypes about you being some rugged toothless goon. Quit acting like hockey is looked at in some fashionable light.
Lastly I find it interesting that basketball is the only team sport I can think of off the top of my head where a team can commit a penalty and benefit from it. You can commit fouls in hope the other team misses the free throws in all sorts of different situations such as hack a Shaq, players going hard in the paint, and end of the game scenarios. How is committing penalties aka breaking the rules supposed to help you win? BECAUSE IT IS PART OF THE GAME.[/QUOTE]
Don't bother. He's blindly talking about something he has no idea about and actually thinks he's making sense.
Doesn't matter what reasons you give. I think a big thing with perception is country for sure. Hockey is Canada's game much like the NBA/NFL is American. Alot of Americans don't grow up with hockey as much therefore the concept of fighting seems crazy where as everywhere in Canada are comfortable with it. Therefore the people in and around hockey perceive the players differently when they fight where in the NBA people are NOT comfortable with fighting therefore when it happens those fans attack it.
[QUOTE]Here's bottom line: Whether u like or hate CGY-VAN line brawl - plenty of views both way - it's "accepted" in NHL with prescribed penalties.
[/QUOTE]
- Bob McKezie. Basically our guy at the ESPN of hockey, since you know ESPN could give a shit about it. Big analyst at TSN.
What Go Getter can't grasp is people will call some guys out for it. They will get called goons. Coaches will get heat. Players will be perceived differently. Even with fighting being apart of the game it still happens. You just have no idea about hockey.
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
Maybe if NBA players didn't have a rep for throwing bitch ass sucker punches in fights they wouldn't get hated on so much.
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/jsm33187/Basketball/melo_punch.gif[/IMG]
Or maybe, just maybe, its as simple as 6'8 dudes pack such a heavier punch than the average 5'10 to 6'1 sized guys in other sports that its wise to not allow them to potentially KO a fool and wreck his career.
Its not like you can punch a guy as hard on skates like you can on an NBA court. Even baseball fights tend to end in a tackle in the dirt more than anything.
Hell, I once saw Shaq take a swing at Brad Miller after he had turned his head and started walking the other way. Had Shaq connected it probably would have killed Miller.
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=NuggetsFan]Don't bother. He's blindly talking about something he has no idea about and actually thinks he's making sense.
Doesn't matter what reasons you give. I think a big thing with perception is country for sure. Hockey is Canada's game much like the NBA/NFL is American. Alot of Americans don't grow up with hockey as much therefore the concept of fighting seems crazy where as everywhere in Canada are comfortable with it. Therefore the people in and around hockey perceive the players differently when they fight where in the NBA people are NOT comfortable with fighting therefore when it happens those fans attack it.
- Bob McKezie. Basically our guy at the ESPN of hockey, since you know ESPN could give a shit about it. Big analyst at TSN.
What Go Getter can't grasp is people will call some guys out for it. They will get called goons. Coaches will get heat. Players will be perceived differently. Even with fighting being apart of the game it still happens. You just have no idea about hockey.[/QUOTE]
I get it. And I ACCEPT it. Hell, I even LIKE it. But I still think that it's hypocritical that we view ball players as thugs for their image and speech yet hockey players are seen as tough for fighting and knocking each other's teeth out.
I agree that I do not know about hockey which is why I am asking...I appreciate you guys explaining your POV to me the best you can and being respectful and patient with me.
:cheers:
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=kentatm]Maybe if NBA players didn't have a rep for throwing bitch ass sucker punches in fights they wouldn't get hated on so much.
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/jsm33187/Basketball/melo_punch.gif[/IMG]
Or maybe, just maybe, its as simple as 6'8 dudes pack such a heavier punch than the average 5'10 to 6'1 sized guys in other sports that its wise to not allow them to potentially KO a fool and wreck his career.
Its not like you can punch a guy as hard on skates like you can on an NBA court. Even baseball fights tend to end in a tackle in the dirt more than anything.
Hell, I once saw Shaq take a swing at Brad Miller after he had turned his head and started walking the other way. Had Shaq connected it probably would have killed Miller.[/QUOTE]
C'mon man hockey players cheap shot each other in the nuts and break sticks over each other's bodies....
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
I think pure Hockey fans appreciate the fighting as a "part of the game" and don't differentiate the way other fans who go between Hockey and other sports do..
some people love hockey fighting, but act like a fight in basketball is a sign of societal decay..
[I]"I wont be taking my kids to any more NBA games... Too much thuggish behavior"[/I]
But the same mofo will rave about an "epic" hockey fight and not view it as a moral problem...
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=Rasheed1]I think pure Hockey fans appreciate the fighting as a "part of the game" and don't differentiate the way other fans who go between Hockey and other sports do..
some people love hockey fighting, but act like a fight in basketball is a sign of societal decay..
[I]"I wont be taking my kids to any more NBA games... Too much thuggish behavior"[/I]
But the same mofo will rave about an "epic" hockey fight and not view it as a moral problem...[/QUOTE]
Exactly my point.
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=Rasheed1]I think pure Hockey fans appreciate the fighting as a "part of the game" and don't differentiate the way other fans who go between Hockey and other sports do..
some people love hockey fighting, but act like a fight in basketball is a sign of societal decay..
[I]"I wont be taking my kids to any more NBA games... Too much thuggish behavior"[/I]
But the same mofo will rave about an "epic" hockey fight and not view it as a moral problem...[/QUOTE]
And the mofo would be kinda correct. A fight on the basketball court is assault, it doesn't exist within the game of basketball. It does within hockey, right or wrong whatever your opinion is it still doesn't change the fact that fighting is included in the sport of hockey.
As a fan of both that's the difference. Melo suckering somebody is like uhhh what's happening this is basketball. Two guys dropping the gloves and both willingly accepting to fight is hockey. You grew up with it, you've seen it and it's as common as anything. Not the case with basketball.
Look at basketball scrums. It's like 4 vs 1 .. sucker punches .. complete and utter confusion .. guys trying to fight players who don't want to fight back. Now that happens in hockey at times too and when it does it's treated EXACTLY the same as it is in basketball.
Look at the brawl he's talking about. Everybody squares off 1 vs 1, everybody is willing, after the fight nobody needs to be calmed down or dragged off the floor like with basketball players. A hockey fight is controlled chaos and when it isn't it's dealt with, fighting in basketball is just pure chaos that would need to be dealt with every single time.
People defend and include the "good" hockey fights. I remember seeing a junior game with Patrick Roy's son. He's a goalie and got in a fight with an unwilling participant. He was charged with assault I'm pretty sure, can't count how many times I've seen NBA players to runs at guys who want no part in it.
NHL players like and want to fight, NFL/NBA probably don't :lol
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
Maybe because hockey it seems they actually respect eachother (after fights they tap heads) in basketball everyone is p*ssies and they act like a bunch of pre madonnas
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
Jeez this thread is so pointless now. Multiple people explained fighting in the fabric of hockey and why it isn't a pointless display of goonary (although there have been multiple acts of downright assault in hockey, not cool) but thick skulls wanna cry about double standards.
This thread really just comes down to racial sensitivity. OP and other people have gotten it explained in many ways in various forms but still can't just accept that dudes swinging on a basketball court simply isn't the same thing as it is in a sport where physical contact and intimidation plays a role in every game. It's like they want Rev Al Sharpton to come out and condemn the white Canadian/Euro sport for unjust racial perceptions.
It's mainly black dudes in here still sensitive that black dudes get seen as feral and impulsive or angry when they throw punches in sports where it's not accepted. It's often an unfair stereotype but what else needs to be said about fighting in hockey vs. basketball? OP's objection to fighting in hockey as having a palpable cause and effect is his plea for whites and blacks to be seen in the same light, despite how the dynamics of the sports differ.
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=ROCSteady]Jeez this thread is so pointless now. Multiple people explained fighting in the fabric of hockey and why it isn't a pointless display of goonary (although there have been multiple acts of downright assault in hockey, not cool) but thick skulls wanna cry about double standards.
This thread really just comes down to racial sensitivity. OP and other people have gotten it explained in many ways in various forms but still can't just accept that dudes swinging on a basketball court simply isn't the same thing as it is in a sport where physical contact and intimidation plays a role in every game. It's like they want Rev Al Sharpton to come out and condemn the white Canadian/Euro sport for unjust racial perceptions.
It's mainly black dudes in here still sensitive that black dudes get seen as feral and impulsive or angry when they throw punches in sports where it's not accepted. It's often an unfair stereotype but what else needs to be said about fighting in hockey vs. basketball? OP's objection to fighting in hockey as having a palpable cause and effect is his plea for whites and blacks to be seen in the same light, despite how the dynamics of the sports differ.[/QUOTE]
1. I have stated thatI like hockey, went to a hockey school, and watched the Blackhawks beat the Bruins in a thrilling shootout a few days ago. I don't want the sport to change.
2. Don't project your bullshit on me. There is nothing about hockey that requires fighting. The aim is to score more goals. Fighting in sports is thuggery no matter if it be NBA/MLB/NHL/Soccer.
3. The only sports where fighting should be permissible is MMA, martial arts, wrestling, and boxing.
4. America unfairly labels black and latino men "thugs" for their appearance but the ACTIONS of hockey players [such as fighting at the beginning of the game and not playing] are not seen as thug-like -- people are making excuses for this poor behavior.
That is a well-thought out rebuttal to fighting in hockey. It is not based in racial hatred it is based in logic. Please refer to brother Rasheed1's post as well.
I do not hate anyone and I plan on going to a hockey game next week. My son wants to play hockey so I'm learning more about the rules and culture.
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
1.) Claiming not wanting to change the sport contradicts with your #3 statement.
2.)It doesn't require fighting but it does serve a definite purpose to the guys on the ice, at higher levels. It rallies a group and hockey, above all sports, hockey teams have a greater camraderie (outside goaltender) than all team sports, due in part to the protection and sense of duty guys have for each other. I'm not even a dude who gets off on the fights when I watch NHL games but I did play the game.
3.) You are not an authority on what should be accepted and not accepted in a rough, physical and emotional sport where checking/hitting guys to get them tired is strategy. Dudes looking to punch each other out to intensify their team is also strategy. Why is that so hard to understand?
4.)Hockey fans do not give a pass to guys who aim to do nothing but fight. Goons are looked at with disdain by the majority of hockey purists. They are looked at the same way a dirty player like Suh is seen by the opposition. Even lower becuz fans know these guys don't offer much in terms of playmaking. Big white Canadien farm boys who only get on ice to fight ARE seen as thugs and goons as it pertains to the sport by people who actually know hockey enough to know their role. The White America you are referring to are oblivious to the nuances of the sport, they can't call these guys thugs because they don't know their purpose or even who the hell they are.
Good look to your son in his pursuit of playing the game and good luck with understanding and enjoying the intensity that hockey parents are subjected to. Ice hockey was by far the most fun sport to play for me but I never tried football.
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=NuggetsFan]And the mofo would be kinda correct. A fight on the basketball court is assault, it doesn't exist within the game of basketball. It does within hockey, right or wrong whatever your opinion is it still doesn't change the fact that fighting is included in the sport of hockey.
As a fan of both that's the difference. Melo suckering somebody is like uhhh what's happening this is basketball. Two guys dropping the gloves and both willingly accepting to fight is hockey. You grew up with it, you've seen it and it's as common as anything. Not the case with basketball.
Look at basketball scrums. It's like 4 vs 1 .. sucker punches .. complete and utter confusion .. guys trying to fight players who don't want to fight back. Now that happens in hockey at times too and when it does it's treated EXACTLY the same as it is in basketball.
Look at the brawl he's talking about. Everybody squares off 1 vs 1, everybody is willing, after the fight nobody needs to be calmed down or dragged off the floor like with basketball players. A hockey fight is controlled chaos and when it isn't it's dealt with, fighting in basketball is just pure chaos that would need to be dealt with every single time.
People defend and include the "good" hockey fights. I remember seeing a junior game with Patrick Roy's son. He's a goalie and got in a fight with an unwilling participant. He was charged with assault I'm pretty sure, can't count how many times I've seen NBA players to runs at guys who want no part in it.
NHL players like and want to fight, NFL/NBA probably don't :lol[/QUOTE]
Oh please.. :rolleyes:
BBall fights are not all sucker punches and some kind of shady sh*t...
guys do much worse in hockey games tham anything Carmelo has ever done.. Give me a break..
It is simply a double standard (that you obviously endorse)..
In Hockey its[I] "tough guys"[/I].. But when guys in other sports fight, its a Moral and societal problem that your kids need to be sheltered from :oldlol:
Stop the bullsh*t please
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=Rasheed1]Oh please.. :rolleyes:
BBall fights are not all sucker punches and some kind of shady sh*t...
guys do much worse in hockey games tham anything Carmelo has ever done.. Give me a break..
It is simply a double standard (that you obviously endorse)..
In Hockey its[I] "tough guys"[/I].. But when guys in other sports fight, its a Moral and societal problem that your kids need to be sheltered from :oldlol:
Stop the bullsh*t please[/QUOTE]
Holy fck. Am I getting trolled?
There's toooooons of people who think fighting in hockey is stupid and should be removed. That's a fair opinion. Not understanding the difference between being allowed to fight in hockey and not in basketball is LAUGHABLEEEE :oldlol:
Show me basketball fights where two people square off and everybody else around them calms down and watches? Show me where NBA players don't throw hissy fits and need other grown men to calm them down? Every scrum turns into chaos. Your right people do worse things in hockey games and when they do TSN or the fans completely go all in on them, probably worse than basketball. Look up Don Cherry, dude says way worse shit than anybody on TNT.
Point is there's clearly composed fights where all hell doesn't break loose. Even with a bench brawl things are more controlled than NBA scrums. Look at the Malice @ the Palice. The brawl he's talking about? They finished the game :oldlol:
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
Fck it. Too many words wasted. I agree, why the hell is Kobe Bryant throwing down with LeBron James any different than Joe Thornton and Jamie Benn fighting. Same exact thing :lol
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=NuggetsFan]Holy fck. Am I getting trolled?
There's toooooons of people who think fighting in hockey is stupid and should be removed. That's a fair opinion. Not understanding the difference between being allowed to fight in hockey and not in basketball is LAUGHABLEEEE :oldlol:
Show me basketball fights where two people square off and everybody else around them calms down and watches? Show me where NBA players don't throw hissy fits and need other grown men to calm them down? Every scrum turns into chaos. Your right people do worse things in hockey games and when they do TSN or the fans completely go all in on them, probably worse than basketball. Look up Don Cherry, dude says way worse shit than anybody on TNT.
Point is there's clearly composed fights where all hell doesn't break loose. Even with a bench brawl things are more controlled than NBA scrums. Look at the Malice @ the Palice. The brawl he's talking about? They finished the game :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
WHO F*CKING CARES EXACTLY HOW THEY SQUARE OFF??? None of it is a sign of moral decay and a symptom of social decline like a lot of so called Hockey fans insinuate when fight break out in BBALL games..
That's the point... People act like NBA fights (or NFL fights) are ruining the fabric of society..
F*cking Sherman cant even yell into a TV screen without everyone calling him a "thug" and a "N*gger"..
But if a hockey fight breaks out? it is an epic occurance... one for the record books.. Tough guys doing what tough guys do...
that is the difference
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
No man, a hockey fight is not epic at all. Happens more often than an injury. No big deal. Standard operating procedure.
Sounds like you just hate that people stereotype black athletes when they get pissed and lose control.
Saying that long term,well balanced, knowledgable sports fans think a scrap that goes down in an NFL game or NBA game is a sign of moral decay is an extreme assessment. That's major hyperbole.
Hockey players are seen as tough guys because they generally stay in games for nasty inflictions, not just fighting. I'm talking a 8- 10 inch major laceration on the mid section from a skate blade- like a katana sliced a dude. I'm talking gettin hit in the mouth incidentally and losing half your teeth and shrugging it off to come back in the game like it's nothing. I'm talking sustaining ligament damage, fractured bones and still being worried about missing a shift....in one reg season game of 82.
Meanwhile, D-Wade hurts his shoulder one time and gets taken off on a wheelchair.
If you can't see the difference in environments and see why fighting would be more natural in one setting versus the other, then...
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=Rasheed1] "N*gger"..
[/QUOTE]
Ohhhhhhhhhhh. I get it. Kinda figured that's what this was about, won't touch on that. Kinda did a few posts ago but yeaaaah.
People call hockey players goons, punks, dirty etc. all the time when they do something stupid or take fighting to another level. However they do not get called N*ggers. Probably cause there white for the most part, I'm sure guys like E.Kane, J.Ward, PK Subban do tho, sometimes anyways :confusedshrug:
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=NuggetsFan]Ohhhhhhhhhhh. I get it. Kinda figured that's what this was about, won't touch on that. Kinda did a few posts ago but yeaaaah.
People call hockey players goons, punks, dirty etc. all the time when they do something stupid or take fighting to another level. However they do not get called N*ggers. Probably cause there white for the most part, I'm sure guys like E.Kane, J.Ward, PK Subban do tho, sometimes anyways :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
Its not soo much about the racial aspect as it is about the phony moral and societal aspect of the double standard..
Im sure the black guys in the NHL are used to being called N*ggers and monkeys by the fans... :confusedshrug: its a part of the job at times..
but im talking about the way the fights are viewed...
I understand that hockey has controls for a fight where the NBA, MLB, and NFL do not..
But that doesn't make fights in those leagues a "moral" problem..
some fans (many of them are hockey fans) have a so called "moral" problem with fighting in other leagues, but not the NHL..
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
Lol at this idea that EVERYBODY automatically calls basketball players thugs for fighting. Doc Rivers and Kevin Johnson started one of worst brawls ever, and are both looked up to as respectable figures within the sport and outside of it.
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=ROCSteady]No man, a hockey fight is not epic at all. Happens more often than an injury. No big deal. Standard operating procedure.
Sounds like you just hate that people stereotype black athletes when they get pissed and lose control.
Saying that long term,well balanced, knowledgable sports fans think a scrap that goes down in an NFL game or NBA game is a sign of moral decay is an extreme assessment. That's major hyperbole.
Hockey players are seen as tough guys because they generally stay in games for nasty inflictions, not just fighting. I'm talking a 8- 10 inch major laceration on the mid section from a skate blade- like a katana sliced a dude. I'm talking gettin hit in the mouth incidentally and losing half your teeth and shrugging it off to come back in the game like it's nothing. I'm talking sustaining ligament damage, fractured bones and still being worried about missing a shift....in one reg season game of 82.
Meanwhile, D-Wade hurts his shoulder one time and gets taken off on a wheelchair.
If you can't see the difference in environments and see why fighting would be more natural in one setting versus the other, then...[/QUOTE]
seeing the double standard is not a "major hyperbole" .. I know hocke fans who are also NBA fans.. They have told me how the NBA has a "thug" problem and that is why people have gone away from the NBA.. They tell me about protecting their kids from the bad influences of the "thugs" in the NBA..
I laugh at them, but they think they make make sense :oldlol:
Like I said (in case you missed that part).. I understand that hockey has a place, and controls for fighting... But that doesn't mean that there is a moral, societal difference between fighting in hockey and fighting in other sports..
it is simply a double standard
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=Norcaliblunt]Lol at this idea that [B]EVERYBODY[/B] automatically calls basketball players thugs for fighting. Doc Rivers and Kevin Johnson started one of worst brawls ever, and are both looked up to as respectable figures within the sport and outside of it.[/QUOTE]
BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT... nobody said EVERYBODY calls NBA players thugs...
I said there is a double standard between hockey fighting and fighting in the other major sports
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=Rasheed1]BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT... nobody said EVERYBODY calls NBA players thugs...
I said there is a double standard between hockey fighting and fighting in the other major sports[/QUOTE]
Then who calls them thugs then? What your honky friends? I've heard people stereotype hockey players as knucklehead goons. It goes both ways.
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
Ya the motivation for this whole thread of b!tching is racial sensitivity. The idea that black athletes throwing a punch or two in the NFL/NBA are chastised as ignorant uncontrollable, primitive beings versus white guys doing it in a controlled, monitored and strategic and not being perceived as athletes with a criminal mindset. Mainly it's just an adopted slight of injustice from dudes who see race before everything. They believe the 'White mass public' turns a cheek to similar acts from other white people.
Its not about the sport. It's about the skin color that dominates the sport. Meanwhile, Richard Sherman yells at viewers all over America in a post game and people are dumbfounded why the status quo, unspectacular everyday unenlightened viewer took offense to his behavior. All the sudden, it's just another instance of race being attacked and not just ignorant thoughts and feelings towards that particular guy.
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=Norcaliblunt]Then who calls them thugs then? What your honky friends? I've heard people stereotype hockey players as knucklehead goons. It goes both ways.[/QUOTE]
it doesnt go both ways ....:oldlol:
you cannot be blind enough to post on a basketball board and not be aware that a portion of society label NBA players as "thugs" for their on court behavior (mostly because of the fighting and the clothes they wear)
Hockey fans call some hockey players goons.. But they don't have the vitriol that they have for an NBA player (or nfl player) who would fight during a game...
Again, look at Sherman.. He is a "thug" and a "scumbag" (and other things) simply because of his rant on sunday.. God forbid if he had actually gotten into a fight.. :oldlol:
People would be looking for charges to be brought against him...
you cant act like the idea of fighting in hockey and the idea of fighting of in the NBA are the same... They are obviously 2 totally different entities...
I know there is a move within the NHL to get rid of fighting.... but most "goons" in hockey don't even have any talent :roll:
There are no players in other sports who occupy so much space simply for their "goonery"
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=Rasheed1]seeing the double standard is not a "major hyperbole" .. I know hocke fans who are also NBA fans.. They have told me how the NBA has a "thug" problem and that is why people have gone away from the NBA.. They tell me about protecting their kids from the bad influences of the "thugs" in the NBA..
I laugh at them, but they think they make make sense :oldlol:
Like I said (in case you missed that part).. I understand that hockey has a place, and controls for fighting... But that doesn't mean that there is a moral, societal difference between fighting in hockey and fighting in other sports..
it is simply a double standard[/QUOTE]
A double standard implies that both situations are of uniform circumstances. Hockey = physical contact sport Basketball = Skilled Athletic Sport
Hockey has tons of skill just as basketball can be physical but the discretion is pretty wide between the two. In basketball, the peak is to maybe commit a hard foul, a flagrant. That's the pinnacle of sending a message. In hockey, it's throwing an illegal hit to set the tone or squaring up and beating the shit out of the other guy's face. They are not on equal ground.
As for the 'NBA fans' who cry thug, there prolly is a degree of unwanted judgment and racism on their part or just plain dismissal of what's more 'mainstream' to viewership on ESPN and stuff. I'll say this: Hardcore NHL fans have a complex because they feel very passionate about the game and feel it doesn't get the coverage it deserves on major networks. Hockey fans are smaller in numbers but are typically way more knowledgable and loyal than the average NBA or NFL fan who cheer but with varying degrees of prior support and team knowledge.
Hockey fans can be quick to be monolithic and dismiss the major 3 sports becuz they resent that it takes away from NHL coverage. I've seen hockey psychos look for any reason to downplay the awesomeness of basketball or baseball or whatever just because they are biased and want to trump up THEIR main passion. That could have a lot to do with that kind of talk. Those people aren't who I was referring to as well balanced, open minded, knowledgable long term sports fans.
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=ROCSteady]Ya the motivation for this whole thread of b!tching is racial sensitivity. The idea that black athletes throwing a punch or two in the NFL/NBA are chastised as ignorant uncontrollable, primitive beings versus white guys doing it in a controlled, monitored and strategic and not being perceived as athletes with a criminal mindset. Mainly it's just an adopted slight of injustice from dudes who see race before everything. They believe the 'White mass public' turns a cheek to similar acts from other white people.
Its not about the sport. It's about the skin color that dominates the sport. Meanwhile, Richard Sherman yells at viewers all over America in a post game and people are dumbfounded why the status quo, unspectacular everyday unenlightened viewer took offense to his behavior. All the sudden, it's just another instance of race being attacked and not just ignorant thoughts and feelings towards that particular guy.[/QUOTE]
we all live here in America and we all know (in our hearts) what is actually going on..
you are right to a large degree... [I]"It's about the skin color that dominates the sport"
[/I]
in one sport? fights are epic and the stuff of legend...
In another? when fights break out, it is a sign of thuggery and the decline of society itself
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=ROCSteady]A double standard implies that both situations are of uniform circumstances. Hockey = physical contact sport Basketball = Skilled Athletic Sport
Hockey has tons of skill just as basketball can be physical but the discretion is pretty wide between the two. In basketball, the peak is to maybe commit a hard foul, a flagrant. That's the pinnacle of sending a message. In hockey, it's throwing an illegal hit to set the tone or squaring up and beating the shit out of the other guy's face. They are not on equal ground.
As for the 'NBA fans' who cry thug, there prolly is a degree of unwanted judgment and racism on their part or just plain dismissal of what's more 'mainstream' to viewership on ESPN and stuff. I'll say this: Hardcore NHL fans have a complex because they feel very passionate about the game and feel it doesn't get the coverage it deserves on major networks. Hockey fans are smaller in numbers but are typically way more knowledgable and loyal than the average NBA or NFL fan who cheer but with varying degrees of prior support and team knowledge.
Hockey fans can be quick to be monolithic and dismiss the major 3 sports becuz they resent that it takes away from NHL coverage. I've seen hockey psychos look for any reason to downplay the awesomeness of basketball or baseball or whatever just because they are bias and want to trump up THEIR main passion. That could have a lot to do with that kind of talk. Those people aren't who I was referring to as well balanced, open minded, knowledgable long term sports fans.[/QUOTE]
I m not talking about fans who only follow hockey... I will accept that a lot of them like the fighting in the sport and they wouldn't understand the difference I am talking about.. I can understand why they believe fighting should exist in their sport and I wouldn't respect their opinion enough about the other sports to give it any thought..
Im talking about the multi sport fan who lives in Philly.. Who lives in NY, Detroit, Boston and other major cities..
I think you know what is being talked about, but whatever.....
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
I feel you are being dramatic in that assertion. The fights on ice are whatever to people who are used to them and only sensationalized dramatic dumbasses will make a huge deal over a punch being thrown by a WR or CB. Even a NBA team 'fight' (more often one or two swings and some shoving) isn't seen anymore deplorable than a bench clearing brawl in the MLB, which is majorly Hispanic with both blacks, whites, couple Asians mixed in.
I rarely see any competent sports fans think society is crumbling if two lineman get into it or a dude takes exception to a hard foul. Some get pumped by it, some just say whatever. Only shitheads think it's ruining America.
Sounds like you are just very sensitive to how blacks are viewed in sports. Sherman deserved much of the scorn he got, short of being known as a N--ger. People don't enjoy having irritating voices screaming at their television after seeing a dude's team make it to the Super Bowl.
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=Rasheed1]I m not talking about fans who only follow hockey... I will accept that a lot of them like the fighting in the sport and they wouldn't understand the difference I am talking about.. I can understand why they believe fighting should exist in their sport and I wouldn't respect their opinion enough about the other sports to give it any thought..
Im talking about the multi sport fan who lives in Philly.. Who lives in NY, Detroit, Boston and other major cities..
[B]I think you know what is being talked about, but whatever....[/B].[/QUOTE]
Yea, you take exception to judgment of viewers who don't respect a black athlete's background or hip hop imagery and wait to degrade them when they lose their cool. I get that. It sucks and pisses me off too that so many don't follow a great thing like NBA basketball because of petty aesthetics.
However, some dudes that are pro black athletes just project body language that people think isn't professional at the pro level. Some guys also have bad attitudes and just project something that isn't accessible to the blue collar everyman.
I do not like the dismissal of great athletes based on hair, tats, scowls, etc. but some guys earn a poor reputation for very legit reasons that aren't rooted in learned racism or bigotry.
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=ROCSteady]I feel you are being dramatic in that assertion. The fights on ice are whatever to people who are used to them and only sensationalized dramatic dumbasses will make a huge deal over a punch being thrown by a WR or CB. Even a NBA team 'fight' (more often one or two swings and some shoving) isn't seen anymore deplorable than a bench clearing brawl in the MLB, which is majorly Hispanic with both blacks, whites, couple Asians mixed in.
I rarely see any competent sports fans think society is crumbling if two lineman get into it or a dude takes exception to a hard foul. Some get pumped by it, some just say whatever. Only shitheads think it's ruining America.
Sounds like you are just very sensitive to how blacks are viewed in sports. Sherman deserved much of the scorn he got, short of being known as a N--ger. People don't enjoy having irritating voices screaming at their television after seeing a dude's team make it to the Super Bowl.[/QUOTE]
I think Sherman's "rants" are ugly myself...
But I don't think they merit the attention it has gotten.. NFL is an intense league and I would expect at least that much intensity to be inside any player..
Im actually glad that there are players like Sherman to show me that it does indeed exist...
The double standard when it comes to fighting in Hockey is obvious and it doesn't take much sensitivity to see it...
like I said a few times..I can understand people who only love hockey.. I can that some of them love fighting and they don't want it taken away..
the other stuff is just a double standard when it comes to how players and the sport itself are viewed..
hell David Stern felt it was necessary to institute a dress code in the NBA to stop the "thug" talk...
Im saying the line between "thug" and normal human being is a lot different depending on which sport you watch..
you said it yourself [I] "It's about the skin color that dominates the sport"[/I] a lot of times
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=Rasheed1]it doesnt go both ways ....:oldlol:
you cannot be blind enough to post on a basketball board and not be aware that a portion of society label NBA players as "thugs" for their on court behavior (mostly because of the fighting and the clothes they wear)
Hockey fans call some hockey players goons.. But they don't have the vitriol that they have for an NBA player (or nfl player) who would fight during a game...
Again, look at Sherman.. He is a "thug" and a "scumbag" (and other things) simply because of his rant on sunday.. God forbid if he had actually gotten into a fight.. :oldlol:
People would be looking for charges to be brought against him...
you cant act like the idea of fighting in hockey and the idea of fighting of in the NBA are the same... They are obviously 2 totally different entities...
I know there is a move within the NHL to get rid of fighting.... but most "goons" in hockey don't even have any talent :roll:
There are no players in other sports who occupy so much space simply for their "goonery"[/QUOTE]
If I based my world perspective off what gets said on this board or by sports writers then that would be stupid. Lol.
Are Doc Rivers and KJ looked at as thugs to the general public? What about Barkley and Shaq? Not every player who fights in the nba is considered a thug. Bottom line. In fact when was the last time fights broke out in the NBA and people started playing the thug card?
If we are basing our perspectives off of message board trolls, and dipshit sports writers paid to ruffle feathers, then you can find ignorant comments on about almost anything.
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=Norcaliblunt]If I based my world perspective off what gets said on this board or by sports writers then that would be stupid. Lol.
Are Doc Rivers and KJ looked at as thugs to the general public? What about Barkley and Shaq? Not every player who fights in the nba is considered a thug. Bottom line. In fact when was the last time fights broke out in the NBA and people started playing the thug card?
[B]If we are basing our perspectives off of message board trolls, and dipshit sports writers paid to ruffle feathers, then you can find ignorant comments on almost about anything[/B].[/QUOTE]
no.. its more of an amalgamation of people I know and media and websites like this one right here
another thing I have learned (especially regarding the NBA) is that perceptions change with time...
I can remember when Scottie Pippen was hated because he refused to go into a play that was designed for toni Kuoc.. People swore he would never live it down, but he did..
Kobe? rape charges? he lived those down.. So Im saying that opinions change and I am mostly speaking of visceral reactions than long lasting opinions of players
people love shaq and Barkley now.. they are hall of famers... But barkley was pariah at times in his career (he deserved some of it, but he lived it down)
Im just saying that society is pretty quick to make a mountain out of a molehill when it comes to fighting in some sports, but not others
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE]it doesnt go both ways ....:oldlol: [/QUOTE]
It does. No matter the sport, the race, the player etc. there are insults used towards them. Just because you get your panties in a bunch over "thug" more so than a word like goon or meathead that also attacks somebody's morals and intelligence doesn't mean it only goes one way..
[QUOTE]you cannot be blind enough to post on a basketball board and not be aware that a portion of society label NBA players as "thugs" for their on court behavior (mostly because of the fighting and the clothes they wear)[/QUOTE]
What's this have to do with fighting in sports? Alot of the shit your talking about has nothing to do with it. NBA players are called thugs because there covered in tattoo's, have off court trouble, clothes as you said, who they hang out with. Such as somebody like Carmelo showing up in Stop Snitching Stop Lying or Steven Jackson throwing up gang signs. A few idiots like J.R Smith get the entire NBA labeled thugs. It's wrong and I agree, but that has nothing to do with fighting. NHL players make less money, aren't in the media as much, haven't had the same off court problems as a Kobe, Big Ben, O.J etc.
Even than it still exists in hockey. Tyler Sequin got a really bad rap for being a punk who partied too much and was traded, he was targeted in the media too. People like you and Go Getter just don't know enough about the sport so your blind about it. He wasn't called a "thug" all tho I'm pretty sure he's actually covered in stupid tattoo's so that probably is a race thing :oldlol:
[QUOTE]Hockey fans call some hockey players goons.. But they don't have the vitriol that they have for an NBA player (or nfl player) who would fight during a game...[/QUOTE]
I've actually never seen many fights in the NFL/NBA but I'm only 22. I can think of a few. Something like the Andre Johnson one, I personally don't care about. Look at that compared to an average hockey fight. Did Finnegan even throw a legit punch back? I love emotion in sports and I didn't care but alot of people really don't like seeing unwilling fights. Cortland was playing chippy, pushing and ripping the helmet but dude didn't actually fight back did he?
Same with the NBA. Look at that Nick Young situation recently. That's not a fight. He was surrounded by the entire team, threw a half punch and retreated. His own teammate Kendall Marshall was like ten feet back and didn't want any part of it.
I think that's a big thing. NHL players want to fight, NBA/NFL don't. I think there content with just pushing and shoving usually. When they get eachothers face they don't want to full out "drop the mitts".
Even than I don't know many people who get upset at offensive linemen pushing eachother or really anything surrounding the NFL. I've heard people say NBA players look stupid and sometimes they do during scrums. KG playing tough guy, getting on his knees and barking and never actually fighting? Most people won't like that..
[QUOTE]Again, look at Sherman.. He is a "thug" and a "scumbag" (and other things) simply because of his rant on sunday.. God forbid if he had actually gotten into a fight.. :oldlol: [/QUOTE]
I found it entertaining, he looked completely crazy tho. White, black, yellow, NBA, NHL and I think that's obvious to anyone.
[QUOTE]People would be looking for charges to be brought against him...[/QUOTE]
Kinda like Patrick Roy's son when he got involved with another goalie who didn't want to fight back? What about Todd Bertuzzi for that huge sucker punch on Steve Moore? Dude's still in court I believe. Still gets boo'd and hate to this day. I've actually seen people use "thug" with him before. Nasty play and got what he deserved...
[QUOTE]you cant act like the idea of fighting in hockey and the idea of fighting of in the NBA are the same... They are obviously 2 totally different entities...[/QUOTE]
Doesn't even need to be said, only on ISH.
[QUOTE]I know there is a move within the NHL to get rid of fighting.... but most "goons" in hockey don't even have any talent :roll: [/QUOTE]
There is. They'll probably succeed eventually, like years and years down the road because of how intertwined it is within the NHL. Ehhh yeah there are some left. Nowhere near where it use to be. You still have your enforces but it's a dying breed. True enforcers get scratched and sit in the press box when not needed. Bottom 6 guy's like Chris Neil and Jordan Tootoo can do other things besides fights.
[QUOTE]There are no players in other sports who occupy so much space simply for their "goonery"[/QUOTE]
Not really these days. Most guys are useful and fill a 4th line checking roll. NBA players get called thugs because teams like NY sign Chris Smith for no reason other than J.R wanting them too. Fighting is apart of the game thus fighters are needed but like I said these days there's hardly a shit load of true enforcers that do nothing but fight..
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
Human beings are quick to judge, very reactionary. In short, we aren't the most sophisticated creatures when we watch our sports. I agree that we beat these 'deviant' behaviors to death. The media are vultures that often enjoy the sensationalism or character assassination of an intriguing or colorful figure.
The surprising thing about today and yesterday is that very few talking heads on the networks were laying into Sherman. They treated him very decent compared to how the general public now see him. I give them kudos for that despite the oversaturation.
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=Rasheed1]no.. its more of an amalgamation of people I know and media and websites like this one right here
another thing I have learned (especially regarding the NBA) is that perceptions change with time...
I can remember when Scottie Pippen was hated because he refused to go into a play that was designed for toni Kuoc.. People swore he would never live it down, but he did..
Kobe? rape charges? he lived those down.. So Im saying that opinions change and I am mostly speaking of visceral reactions than long lasting opinions of players
people love shaq and Barkley now.. they are hall of famers... But barkley was pariah at times in his career (he deserved some of it, but he lived it down)
Im just saying that society is pretty quick to make a mountain out of a molehill when it comes to fighting in some sports, but not others[/QUOTE]
Hockey is essentially less popular, with less media coverage than basketball, football, and baseball. Hockey has a long history of fights which are legal within the rules of the sport so people are desensitized, and even then there are people who still disapprove of it. Baseball allows dugout clearing brawls to keep taking place for some reason, so Hockey isn't the only sport with their own weird code when it comes to fighting. People can be ignorant, yes. Also double standards can exist especially when comparing apples to oranges, so suck it up put on your big boy pants and get used to it.
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=Rasheed1]
hell David Stern felt it was necessary to institute a dress code in the NBA to stop the "thug" talk...
Im saying the line between "thug" and normal human being is a lot different depending on which sport you watch..
you said it yourself [I] "It's about the skin color that dominates the sport"[/I] a lot of times[/QUOTE]
I don't see why the dress code was so oppressive to the players. These dudes work in a multimillion dollar industry. Image is ALWAYS stressed in big business where commerce is large. Sure it's a basketball game but they are still employees of multi million dollar corporations. What's wrong with being required to dress business-casual when you are on the clock representing your organization? Don't see it as persecution to individual identity.
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[quote]People can be ignorant, yes. Also double standards can exist especially when comparing apples to oranges, so suck it up put on your big boy pants and get used to it.[/quote]
you are right.. people need to put their "big boy pants" on.. it shouldn't bug people for me to point out the double standard..
it is obvious..we should be able to admit it and move on
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=Go Getter] Fighting in sports is thuggery no matter if it be NBA/MLB/NHL/Soccer. [/QUOTE]
Nah.. as has been explained a million times, there is an ettiquette to hockey fighting based on mutual agreement. Basketball is often one guy lashing out at another and then everything goes to shit and its a gang fight essentially. Now that is thuggery.. uncontrolled violence that serves no purpose.
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Re: The hypocrisy of hockey
[QUOTE=Rasheed1]you are right.. people need to put their "big boy pants" on.. it shouldn't bug people for me to point out the double standard..
it is obvious..we should be able to admit it and move on[/QUOTE]
:cheers:
I just don't think it is some big racial/social issue that some of you are trying to make it out to be. It's simply a different sport so a different animal. Ignorant assertions can be made about anything, and they can go either way. It just so happens that in this example basketball, and football are more heavily covered by the media so negative comments are more likely to be voiced and heard.
I wanna know why in golf, fans have to be quiet when players are putting and driving, but in basketball people can scream, blow horns, and wave hands when players are shooting a free throw? I smell double standard.