[QUOTE=Marlo_Stanfield][B]Wilt Chamberlain is the GOAT[/B]. cant believe some people have MJ over him:facepalm :facepalm[/QUOTE]
:biggums:
Printable View
[QUOTE=Marlo_Stanfield][B]Wilt Chamberlain is the GOAT[/B]. cant believe some people have MJ over him:facepalm :facepalm[/QUOTE]
:biggums:
[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW][url]http://youtu.be/FJYRtWCutRA[/url]
Example of how I can present a Wilt offense scouting video. Passing, post moves, offensive rebounding, playmaking everything. From every part of his career so there are as few holes in the coverage/presentation of his offensive abilities as possible. My initial estimate is about a 30 minute video if I DON'T use high school and NCAA footage. Will extend any 'clip' (sequences not from the few broadcasts that exist) to as far in front of the play developing as possible, ideally before Wilt sets up and demands the entry pass (though not all clips will show the entire play, some simply begin after the ball is in his hands) That is what you are looking for no? I can try and loosely organize or cluster the clips too to group similar plays.
Will take a while but if you think it's necessary I'll put it on my to do list.[/QUOTE]
[B]That right there was great to watch, looking forward to it.[/B]
[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]That right there was great to watch, looking forward to it.[/B][/QUOTE]
I just watched it as well, it's quite good. I like the original mix a lot (plenty of action) but this is really useful because it lets us see how the play develops.
Thanks again CavsFTW for everything. :applause:
[QUOTE=dankok8]A lot of animosity in this thread for Fatal9 who is dubbed "a Wilt hater". Truth you may not agree with what the man said but he backed up his opinions with facts and sound logic. I mean are Regul8r, ShaqAttack, PTB Fan etc. all bad posters because they don't think Wilt is the greatest scorer and player? Before you call out others for being biased consider your own personal biases.
As for the OP's video, it's very well done. I've seen most of the footage before since it comes from games that are available but it's well put together. Watching all the available games I've always praised Wilt's coordination, excellent hands, and athleticism. This video definitely sells those points.
I do think Chamberlain lags significantly behind Hakeem and Kareem as far as footwork, fluidity, and variety of moves/counter-moves. Then again it's isn't really a diss. Skills are only the means to an end! Wilt did pretty damn well scoring the ball. The results matter.[/QUOTE]
Hakeem did what he did because he was 6-9 - 6-10, 235-255. Wilt does what he does because he's the 2nd biggest and perhaps the absolute strongest player in NBA history.
A fact Fatal9, and other people who try to jump on Wilt for 'not having Hakeem's ____" ignore entirely and do not wish to acknowledge. Remember, Fatal9 is a guy who thought Wilt had a 24 inch vertical, was Tyson Chandlers height, only 225-275lbs, and with a 7-2 wingspan. He basically thought Wilt was some average joe, physically. Joakim Noah sized who wouldn't impress a single soul in today's scouting world. Therefore his expectations of what Wilt should be doing skill wise are ...urealistic shall we say.
Nobody had Hakeem's footwork or moves, save for Hakeem, who NEEDED them to have the impact he had because he was just your average joe in size as far as centers go, he needed something to set him apart. David Robinson scored 73 points in the modern era not doing any of the shit Hakeem did, do you remember all his 'post moves?' ... are they 'Hakeem-like?'. No, he's 7 foot, 260, bigger longer and can get away with doing more with less. Wilt was bigger yet than Robinson. In Wilt's time the short offensively skilled center was Willis Reed. Willis is much quicker and more fluid and all around much more aesthetically pleasing on film with his shots than say, Wilt was. Does that make Willis a better scorer than Wilt? No. Small centers NEED moves that rely on quickness and deception, big ones like Wilt do not.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqyEb-MgPAs[/url]
Ask yourself, why would Wilt waste time attempting to duplicate or execute compound moves of 'quickness', deception and incorporate all sorts of moves and counter moves when he's so big and strong all he needs to do is one simple turn in or drop step to get to the rim? If you understand how big and strong Wilt is, what you expect of him to move around like on the offensive end shouldn't be the same as what you demand to see from undersized 6-9 or 6-10 guys. Wasted energy for a guy of Wilt's size and strength to try and duplicate what small, quick centers needed to do. The great ones best know how to use what [I]they've[/I] got to work with, not what others with different tools have needed. If Wilt's footwork or shooting was ever a problem for him he wouldn't have scored 100 points or shattered every scoring record imaginable on the same centers that beautiful fluid looking guys like Kareem or Willis Reed put up less impressive numbers on.
[QUOTE=fpliii]I just watched it as well, it's quite good. I like the original mix a lot (plenty of action) but this is really useful because it lets us see how the play develops.
Thanks again CavsFTW for everything. :applause:[/QUOTE]
[B]YEs, I liked this (test-version) one better.[/B]
[QUOTE=Psileas]Although I understand the "complete picture" motive, I still don't think that a mix which includes missed shots will lead them into making objective comparisons with other greats, since remembering greats bricking shots is unlikely. There are not "FGA" highlights of greats and it's not easy to compare a comprehensive shot compilation to whole games viewed over the years, the bad/"indifferent" moments of which may have been erased from most fans' minds.[/QUOTE]
I agree, totally pointless to show misses, Wilt takes the same shots regardless of whether he misses or makes them. Showing misses is pointless, you're not even going to get an accurate idea of how often he makes/misses, because there aren't that many clips of him missing in the non-game broadcast clips. You want to know how often he missed shooting the basketball look at his damn stats and study as many full game broadcasts as you can. He doesn't attempt stuff he can't make, it's not like we're gonna see him heaving up 30 foot shots if I suddenly show his 'misses'. I'm not wasting my time with it for this potential project that will take long enough as it is. And anybody ever seen or demanded highlights of other players 'misses' to assess them? :biggums:
BRB gonna go tell Balthus23Air to make a 4 hour mix of Jordan missing so I can better see/understand how he played? 4 hours of him making it is too ...erhm, misleading?. Am I doing it right? :lol :facepalm
[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]I agree, totally pointless to show misses, Wilt takes the same shots regardless of whether he misses or makes them. Showing misses is pointless, you're not even going to get an accurate idea of how often he makes/misses, because there aren't that many clips of him missing in the non-game broadcast clips. You want to know how often he missed shooting the basketball look at his damn stats and study as many full game broadcasts as you can. He doesn't attempt stuff he can't make, it's not like we're gonna see him heaving up 30 foot shots if I suddenly show his 'misses'. I'm not wasting my time with it for this potential project that will take long enough as it is. And anybody ever seen or demanded highlights of other players 'misses' to assess them? :biggums:
BRB gonna go tell Balthus23Air to make a 4 hour mix of Jordan missing so I can better see/understand how he played? 4 hours of him making it is too ...erhm, misleading?. Am I doing it right? :lol :facepalm[/QUOTE]
Ah okay, up to you. Thanks again for your work. :cheers:
[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Hakeem did what he did because he was 6-9 - 6-10, 235-255. Wilt does what he does because he's the 2nd biggest and perhaps the absolute strongest player in NBA history.
A fact Fatal9, and other people who try to jump on Wilt for 'not having Hakeem's ____" ignore entirely and do not wish to acknowledge. Remember, Fatal9 is a guy who thought Wilt had a 24 inch vertical, was Tyson Chandlers height, only 225-275lbs, and with a 7-2 wingspan. He basically thought Wilt was some average joe, physically. Joakim Noah sized who wouldn't impress a single soul in today's scouting world. Therefore his expectations of what Wilt should be doing skill wise are ...urealistic shall we say.
Nobody had Hakeem's footwork or moves, save for Hakeem, who NEEDED them to have the impact he had because he was just your average joe in size as far as centers go, he needed something to set him apart. David Robinson scored 73 points in the modern era not doing any of the shit Hakeem did, do you remember all his 'post moves?' ... are they 'Hakeem-like?'. No, he's 7 foot, 260, bigger longer and can get away with doing more with less. Wilt was bigger yet than Robinson. In Wilt's time the short offensively skilled center was Willis Reed. Willis is much quicker and more fluid and all around much more aesthetically pleasing on film with his shots than say, Wilt was. Does that make Willis a better scorer than Wilt? No. Small centers NEED moves that rely on quickness and deception, big ones like Wilt do not.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqyEb-MgPAs[/url]
Ask yourself, why would Wilt waste time attempting to duplicate or execute compound moves of 'quickness', deception and incorporate all sorts of moves and counter moves when he's so big and strong all he needs to do is one simple turn in or drop step to get to the rim? If you understand how big and strong Wilt is, what you expect of him to move around like on the offensive end shouldn't be the same as what you demand to see from undersized 6-9 or 6-10 guys. Wasted energy for a guy of Wilt's size and strength to try and duplicate what small, quick centers needed to do. The great ones best know how to use what [I]they've[/I] got to work with, not what others with different tools have needed. If Wilt's footwork or shooting was ever a problem for him he wouldn't have scored 100 points or shattered every scoring record imaginable on the same centers that beautiful fluid looking guys like Kareem or Willis Reed put up less impressive numbers on.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree. The end result matters. If a guy puts up 73 points it doesn't really matter how he did it... whether it's flashy or not. He's a helluva scorer!
I like the comparison of young scoring Wilt to Robinson actually. Both have post games that are about equally skilled (or raw depending on how you look at it). Robinson never had a go to move with his back to the basket and when he couldn't blow by his guy he was screwed. Wilt had a bit more range and was even more physically imposing so he could power his way in more often. Definitely an even stronger upper body and could elevate higher than D Rob.
Wilt didn't need to be flashy like Hakeem. His game got the job done in his time and I think Robinson proves that it would get the job done in the modern era as well. Prime Wilt could average 30+/15+ today in his prime. I have little doubt.
Coincidentally I think Wilt's greatest weakness which is lack of killer instinct is also similar to that in Robinson.
[QUOTE=Originally Posted by Marlo_Stanfield]
Wilt Chamberlain is the GOAT. cant believe some people have MJ over him[/quote]
[QUOTE=aj1987]:biggums:[/QUOTE]
There is a case to be made for Wilt as the GOAT. Same with Russell, Kareem and Magic. Most people won't be making it, but anyone in most people's top 5, which Wilt is, has a case.
Barry:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSTt_TxoFVo[/url]
Kareem:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTzv-6z7ihk[/url]
what idiots :roll: ... right?. I mean, how dare anyone think Wilt deserves to be the GOAT or in the discussions for it he was a bum I heard who preyed on weak 6-6 white guys. Couldnt' even tie his shoes in the modern era. :lol
[QUOTE=Marchesk]There is a case to be made for Wilt as the GOAT. Same with Russell, Kareem and Magic. Most people won't be making it, but anyone in most people's top 5, which Wilt is, has a case.[/QUOTE]
I'd agree with you on Russell, but the rest? Nope.
Magic? Seriously? A lot of people actually have Bird over Magic. Magic has literally NO case for being the GOAT.
[QUOTE=aj1987]I'd agree with you on Russell, but the rest? Nope.
Magic? Seriously? A lot of people actually have Bird over Magic. Magic has literally NO case for being the GOAT.[/QUOTE]
Yes, a case can be made for Magic. It's quite similar to the case for Russell. Which is who helped their team win the most over their entire career. And if you say that Magic's team was stacked, then well same goes for Bird and Russell.
Kareem absolutely has a case. I don't know how you can say Russell and not Kareem.
As for Wilt, well, he's overall better than Russell taking into account all that Wilt could do. But he didn't have the same situation as Russell. So we can say that Russell was the GOAT winner. Okay, and then the next five are all Celtics too. The same team that had one of the GOAT coaches and nine HOFers. Wilt didn't get drafted by the Celtics. You think Russell would have won with those Warriors teams?
GOAT, doesn't that mean the best player ever. Not who won the most championships because he had more teams with better players. Not necessarily the best player on his own.
I was thinking of grouping his baskets in two ways for sure, left side and right side. Show his passing and scoring moves from both sides. This should kill any 'no left hand' arguments, because the whole point of being ambidextrous is so that (and this mostly applies to a backcourt or forward anyways) players can't force you into being on your weak side, Wilt could score or make plays on both sides of the floor equally, and effectively, he really had no weak side of the floor despite only using his right hand. If I break it up to both sides what are people going to be able to say about using one hand when he's tearing up the other teams defense regardless of which side of the floor he's on you know?
But Wilt also scored right down the middle in transitions, alley-oops, offensive rebounds, pick and rolls, etc and even shot jumpers from the middle - so what should I call this 3rd category to sum up his middle of the lane plays? Just call it "in the middle" or "in the lane" is there a better term for it?
Also... should I include setting screens (where he doesn't necessarily score or pass) and fast break outlet passing (which technically starts from a defensive rebound)?
[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]I was thinking of grouping his baskets in two ways for sure, left side and right side. Show his passing and scoring moves from both sides. This should kill any 'no left hand' arguments too, because the whole point of being ambidextrous is so that (and this mostly applies to a backcourt or forward anyways) players can't force you into being on your weak side, Wilt could score or make plays on both sides of the floor equally, and effectively, he really had no weak side of the floor despite only using his right hand. If I break it up to both sides what are people going to be able to say about using one hand when he's tearing up the other teams defense regardless of which side of the floor he's on you know?
But Wilt also scored right down the middle in transitions, alley-oops, offensive rebounds, pick and rolls, etc and even shot jumpers from the middle - so what should I call this 3rd category to sum up his middle of the lane plays? Just call it "in the middle" or is there a better term for it?[/QUOTE]
Hm, well I'd break it down to left block, right block, high post, and then whatever else. You actually could do those sections, and maybe put an extra watermark (like the channel logo) in another corner saying which portion it is (maybe list the times when they start in the description, perhaps with a transition between segments)? :confusedshrug:
I guess you could do (just an idea):
• left block
• right block
• high post
• misc. half-court (off. rebounds, alley oops, PnRs)
• transition
BTW is there any good footage of him passing out to shooters (I know he wasn't blessed with many with the Warriors, but maybe there's some good stuff in the Sixers/Lakers footage), or is it mostly finding cutters?
EDIT: Just saw this:
[QUOTE]Also... should I include setting screens (where he doesn't necessarily score or pass) and fast break outlet passing (which technically starts from a defensive rebound)?[/QUOTE]
Screens - Maybe, but I'm not sure where you could include them. The outlet passing would be great if you put it in the transition portion of the video.
[QUOTE=Marchesk]Yes, a case can be made for Magic. It's quite similar to the case for Russell. Which is who helped their team win the most over their entire career. And if you say that Magic's team was stacked, then well same goes for Bird and Russell.[/quote]
Magic won 5 rings in 9 trips to the Finals. Russell won 11 rings. Sure, the Celtic's were stacked as f (I don't think anyone will dispute that), but according to most accounts, Russell was THE man for 8-9 rings.
[QUOTE=Marchesk]Kareem absolutely has a case. I don't know how you can say Russell and not Kareem.[/quote]
Simple. Russell won more.
[QUOTE=Marchesk]As for Wilt, well, he's overall better than Russell taking into account all that Wilt could do. But he didn't have the same situation as Russell. So we can say that Russell was the GOAT winner. Okay, and then the next five are all Celtics too. The same team that had one of the GOAT coaches and nine HOFers. Wilt didn't get drafted by the Celtics. You think Russell would have won with those Warriors teams?[/QUOTE]
Hypotheticals. Wilt , considering the amount of hype he get nowadays, should've more than 2 rings. His postseason choking brings him down a couple of places.
MJ is usually regarded as the GOAT because he was flat out dominant on all stages. I don't think I've ever seen MJ choke away a series. He went all out whenever he was on the court. The guy won an MPV at 35 and led his team to the championship. How many others have done that.
Dude is considered to be the GOAT perimeter scorer and one of the GOAT perimeter defenders as well.
[QUOTE=mehyaM24]lmao!!... not gonna happen…..im a bball genius….im a stat genius….im a math genius…nuff said.[/QUOTE]
Yep, that looks like shaqpopcorn :applause:
Dude is HILARIOUS, Yt community... (Not too long ago, maybe still, I was known as the biggest Kobe hater on yt :lol )
[QUOTE=senelcoolidge]GOAT, doesn't that mean the best player ever. Not who won the most championships because he had more teams with better players. Not necessarily the best player on his own.[/QUOTE]
Some people think Bill Russell's ability to win all those championships MAKES him the best player ever, despite not being able to do some of the things others could who played while he played or after. Bob Pettit and many other people such as Gary Payton think Bill Russell is the greatest of all time for this reason. And I don't blame them, Russell really was the reason behind all those Celtics championships, his teammates and peers all agree on this regardless of how many points he scored (btw, most don't give him enough credit there, only scored 6 less PPG than Kareem). I even have an interview where Wilt at that particular interview feels Russell was the greatest of all time (he then clarifies that's just how he feels that day, and he feels picking a GOAT is like picking you're favorite dessert... how can you decide? It could change depending on your mood.)
On the other hand some people think winning doesn't mean much at all and all around abilities and skills are the highest value. This is actually why in the 1980's before MJ even won any titles people were thinking of him as a GOAT caliber player. This is also why people think Oscar Robertson is a GOAT caliber player, as well as Lebron regardless of how many titles he would have ended up with. Oscar himself thinks Elgin Baylor is the GOAT, and if I'm not mistaken, Chick Hearn also said Elgin was the best player he ever saw (actually not sure if Chick believed that made him the 'greatest' though).
Then there are the people who think individual dominance makes you the greatest. Wilt leads everyone by a mile in that category, as guys like Kareem and Barry have explained.
Then finally there's the people that want an all around resume of MVP's, championships, etc and sometimes they want it at 'every level' in which case according to Dr. J, Kareem fits there best.
At the end of the day there are many GOAT candidates depending on your criteria. Any of the major front runners in that class of player has an 'edge' depending on how you favor what goes into making a player so great. I would agree with how Wilt put it, it's like picking you're favorite dessert.
[QUOTE=fpliii]Hm, well I'd break it down to left block, right block, high post, and then whatever else. You actually could do those sections, and maybe put an extra watermark (like the channel logo) in another corner saying which portion it is (maybe list the times when they start in the description, perhaps with a transition between segments)? :confusedshrug:
I guess you could do (just an idea):
• left block
• right block
• high post
• misc. half-court (off. rebounds, alley oops, PnRs)
• transition
[B]BTW is there any good footage of him passing out to shooters[/B] (I know he wasn't blessed with many with the Warriors, but maybe there's some good stuff in the Sixers/Lakers footage), or is it mostly finding cutters?
EDIT: Just saw this:
Screens - Maybe, but I'm not sure where you could include them. The outlet passing would be great if you put it in the transition portion of the video.[/QUOTE]
of course
Also should I separate high post to left and right?
Should outlet passing be lumped with his transition baskets of himself trailing/running the floor since technically an outlet/fastbreak pass is a transition offensive play?
[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]of course
Also should I separate high post to left and right?
Should outlet passing be lumped with his transition baskets of himself trailing/running the floor since technically an outlet/fastbreak pass is a transition offensive play?[/QUOTE]
Nice.
Hm I'm not sure. I'd lump the high post plays together but it's up to you.
I'm not sure. I think you could group the outlet passing in, but keep it separate from transition baskets (so maybe consecutive portions).
Here again, CavFan is going to post the most indepth video footage ever of Chamberlain's offensive skills...
but, the fact remains, that we only have a tiny particle of his 1200 NBA games, and a crumb of his 50 college games.
The real question has to be...
just what did Chamberlain's BEST performances look like? His 271 40+ point games? Or his 132 30-30 games? Or his 122 50+ point games? Or his 32 60+ point games? His 73 40-30 games? His 32 50-30 games? How about his 15-15 game from the field, or 16-16 game from the field, or his 18-19 game, or his 18-18 game? Maybe his 29-35 game from the field? How about a few of his 81 triple-doubles (and perhaps as many as 40 quad doubles?) And wouldn't it be nice to have footage of his 22-25-21 game? Or his 53-32-14 triple double game? Maybe his game with a RECORDED 23 blocked shots? Or perhaps a couple of his estimates 30+ block games? Perhaps the six H2H games in which he held KAJ to under .399 shooting? Maybe the game in which he held Russell to 0-14 shooting from the field? Maybe his just one of his several 60+ games against Bellamy, including one with 73 points and 36 rebounds? Or his 38-15 beatdown of Thurmond, or an even more incredible 45 point crushing of Thurmond (outscoring Nate by a 45-13 margin?) Or one of his 12 H2H games against Reed in their 64-65 H2H's, in which Chamberlain was shelling him by margins of 41-9, 52-23, and 58-28? Perhaps his 62 point game against Russell (on 27-45 shooting.) Or maybe his four other 50+ point games he shellacked Russell with. How about his 55-19 rebounding margin over Russell in one H2H?
The point is, there is simply no known footage available, of a truly GREAT Chamberlain. An unequaled Chamberlain. The unfathomable Chamberlain.
THAT is the footage that we really need...
[QUOTE=dankok8]A lot of animosity in this thread for Fatal9 who is dubbed "a Wilt hater". Truth you may not agree with what the man said but he backed up his opinions with facts and sound logic. I mean are Regul8r, ShaqAttack, PTB Fan etc. all bad posters because they don't think Wilt is the greatest scorer and player? Before you call out others for being biased consider your own personal biases.
As for the OP's video, it's very well done. I've seen most of the footage before since it comes from games that are available but it's well put together. Watching all the available games I've always praised Wilt's coordination, excellent hands, and athleticism. This video definitely sells those points.
[B]I do think Chamberlain lags significantly behind Hakeem and Kareem as far as footwork, fluidity, and variety of moves/counter-moves[/B]. Then again it's isn't really a diss. Skills are only the means to an end! Wilt did pretty damn well scoring the ball. The results matter.[/QUOTE]
Read my post directly above this one...
Fpliii how about for structuring the video:
Left block
Right block
Lobs and Offensive rebounds
Transition
High Post
2 man game (Give and go's and Pick and Rolls)
[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Fpliii how about for structuring the video:
Left block
Right block
Lobs and Offensive rebounds
Transition
High Post
2 man game (Give and go's and Pick and Rolls)[/QUOTE]
Sounds good. Great way to mix it up. :cheers:
For the final video, can you include start times in the description for each section?
Thanks again for your hard work!
[QUOTE=fpliii]Sounds good. Great way to mix it up. :cheers:
For the final video, can you include start times in the description for each section?
Thanks again for your hard work![/QUOTE]
Yeah I can do that. Going to separate lobs and offensive rebounds I've decided after watching some lumped together, they don't look right together. Some great post moves that he initially missed but rebounded immediately himself I'm probably going to put into their appropriate block position section if move was more highlight worthy than the rebound.
Still not sure how I should tie in passing actually. Trying to wrap my head around how I would include passes if I separated give and go and pick and roll footage of him scoring... would that then mean I should put his give and go footage in that 2 man section if he's the assist man even if he's set up in the block or high post which has it's own sections? Just figuring out how to structure this video to present his offensive abilities takes a bit more critical thinking than I anticipated. I'm essentially trying to group and organize plays in a game that is very dynamic into a small number of categories but there always seems to be some grey area.
[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Yeah I can do that. Going to separate lobs and offensive rebounds I've decided after watching some lumped together, they don't look right together. Some great post moves that he initially missed but rebounded immediately himself I'm probably going to put into their appropriate block position section if move was more highlight worthy than the rebound.
Still not sure how I should tie in passing actually. Trying to wrap my head around how I would include passes if I separated give and go and pick and roll footage of him scoring... would that then mean I should put his give and go footage in that 2 man section if he's the assist man even if he's set up in the block or high post which has it's own sections? Just figuring out how to structure this video to present his offensive abilities takes a bit more critical thinking than I anticipated. I'm essentially trying to group and organize plays in a game that is very dynamic into a small number of categories but there always seems to be some grey area.[/QUOTE]
Good question, I'm not sure. Maybe you could just structure by where Wilt is when the play begins? So if there's a five and go from the left block, include it in that section I think. You have a better creative mind than I do though, so I think you'll figure something out.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Here again, CavFan is going to post the most indepth video footage ever of Chamberlain's offensive skills...
but, the fact remains, that we only have a tiny particle of his 1200 NBA games, and a crumb of his 50 college games.
The real question has to be...
just what did Chamberlain's BEST performances look like? His 271 40+ point games? Or his 132 30-30 games? Or his 122 50+ point games? Or his 32 60+ point games? His 73 40-30 games? His 32 50-30 games? How about his 15-15 game from the field, or 16-16 game from the field, or his 18-19 game, or his 18-18 game? Maybe his 29-35 game from the field? How about a few of his 81 triple-doubles (and perhaps as many as 40 quad doubles?) And wouldn't it be nice to have footage of his 22-25-21 game? Or his 53-32-14 triple double game? Maybe his game with a RECORDED 23 blocked shots? Or perhaps a couple of his estimates 30+ block games? Perhaps the six H2H games in which he held KAJ to under .399 shooting? Maybe the game in which he held Russell to 0-14 shooting from the field? Maybe his just one of his several 60+ games against Bellamy, including one with 73 points and 36 rebounds? Or his 38-15 beatdown of Thurmond, or an even more incredible 45 point crushing of Thurmond (outscoring Nate by a 45-13 margin?) Or one of his 12 H2H games against Reed in their 64-65 H2H's, in which Chamberlain was shelling him by margins of 41-9, 52-23, and 58-28? Perhaps his 62 point game against Russell (on 27-45 shooting.) Or maybe his four other 50+ point games he shellacked Russell with. How about his 55-19 rebounding margin over Russell in one H2H?
The point is, there is simply no known footage available, of a truly GREAT Chamberlain. An unequaled Chamberlain. The unfathomable Chamberlain.
THAT is the footage that we really need...[/QUOTE]
I guess we don't have anything from his best games, but aren't clips from that game against Detroit, and the highlights of him with his facemask from pretty good games? I think they're at least from his absolutely prime, right?
[QUOTE=fpliii]Good question, I'm not sure. Maybe you could just structure by where Wilt is when the play begins? So if there's a five and go from the left block, include it in that section I think. You have a better creative mind than I do though, so I think you'll figure something out.
I guess we don't have anything from his best games, but aren't clips from that game against Detroit, and the highlights of him with his facemask from pretty good games? I think they're at least from his absolutely prime, right?[/QUOTE]
No. Highlights of Chamberlain don't begin to do justice to him. Video clips of blocked shots or slam dunks or even these great studies that Cavs is doing just don't show what made 13 the greatest.
It was his ability to completely overshadow the game for several minutes at a time. As a 3rd quarter would go along, he would get more and more remorseless, until it was just brutal. Not just blocking shots, but stopping [I]every[/I] shot inside of 15 feet. The snap passes that usually throw a defense into disarray would fail against the Sixers because he and Chet Walker could switch back and forth so quickly that there was just no shot to be had. After 3 or 4 minutes of that TOTAL denial of shots you could see the complete intimidation on the faces of the other team.
On the other end........ you know, people make a big deal about somebody like Mattie Guokas saying something like "Chamberlain always insisted they wait for him to get down the court on offense so he would get an assist."
Lemme tell you, if that [I]was[/I] Wilt & not Hannum maiking that decision, well, Chamberlain was absolutely correct in doing that because Guokas was a true scrub, on the court purely to give somebody 2 minutes of deep breathing on the bench. NOBODY wanted Guokas running anything, least of all Alex Hannum. Whenever Coach put that guy in the game he'd start pacing and looking at the clock, wishing the time would go faster so he could get a real player back in the game. Chamberlain threw a lot of deep passes and ran a lot of transition off his rebounds... just not to somebody like Mattie Guokas.
In '68 Wilt had mastered the all round game to the point where his triple double threat was so dangerous that despair set in for other NBA teams. Mailing it in became a major pastime for teams that went to Philly.
Highlights don't begin to show those kinds of things.
[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]No. Highlights of Chamberlain don't begin to do justice to him. Video clips of blocked shots or slam dunks or even these great studies that Cavs is doing just don't show what made 13 the greatest.
It was his ability to completely overshadow the game for several minutes at a time. As a 3rd quarter would go along, he would get more and more remorseless, until it was just brutal. Not just blocking shots, but stopping [I]every[/I] shot inside of 15 feet. The snap passes that usually throw a defense into disarray would fail against the Sixers because he and Chet Walker could switch back and forth so quickly that there was just no shot to be had. After 3 or 4 minutes of that TOTAL denial of shots you could see the complete intimidation on the faces of the other team.
On the other end........ you know, people make a big deal about somebody like Mattie Guokas saying something like "Chamberlain always insisted they wait for him to get down the court on offense so he would get an assist."
Lemme tell you, if that [I]was[/I] Wilt & not Hannum maiking that decision, well, Chamberlain was absolutely correct in doing that because Guokas was a true scrub, on the court purely to give somebody 2 minutes of deep breathing on the bench. NOBODY wanted Guokas running anything, least of all Alex Hannum. Whenever Coach put that guy in the game he'd start pacing and looking at the clock, wishing the time would go faster so he could get a real player back in the game. Chamberlain threw a lot of deep passes and ran a lot of transition off his rebounds... just not to somebody like Mattie Guokas.
In '68 Wilt had mastered the all round game to the point where his triple double threat was so dangerous that despair set in for other NBA teams. Mailing it in became a major pastime for teams that went to Philly.
Highlights don't begin to show those kinds of things.[/QUOTE]
Cool, thanks for the response. :cheers:
Guys, what is it called if the center/big never quite sets up in the post offensively and your guard runs up the floor with the ball and your center starts rolling to the hoop as the guard draws the defense running across the court then he kicks it out to the rolling big man for an easy dunk... it's not a pick and roll because no pick was set it's just like, the guard drew the defense and kicked it - what is that play called? Not sure whether to group that type of play into "transition" or "2 man (Pick & Rolls and Give and Go's)" sections. Wilt clearly rolled to the hoop while he and his guard played a 2 man game... but the guard seemed to be rolling up the court in transition (as the last man though, the entire rest of the team was already down the floor including Wilt) so... I don't know?
*EDIT* I'm gonna upload the clip... easier to show than to describe :lol
[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Guys, what is it called if the center/big never quite sets up in the post offensively and your guard runs up the floor with the ball and your center starts rolling to the hoop as the guard draws the defense running across the court then he kicks it out to the rolling big man for an easy dunk... it's not a pick and roll because no pick was set it's just like, the guard drew the defense and kicked it - what is that play called? Not sure whether to group that type of play into "transition" or "2 man (Pick & Rolls and Give and Go's)" sections. Wilt clearly rolled to the hoop while he and his guard played a 2 man game... but the guard seemed to be rolling up the court in transition (as the last man though, the entire rest of the team was already down the floor including Wilt) so... I don't know?[/QUOTE]
How far out was he? Is it like a drive and kick?
[QUOTE=fpliii]How far out was he? [B]Is it like a drive and kick?[/B][/QUOTE]
It might be the best term for it, looks like a pick and roll the way Wilt rolls except the guard does all the dirty work because no screen set or anything. I'm rendering the clip right now and gonna post the link - you tell me what you think because there are several clips similar and I'm kind of on the fence which category to put them in
[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]It might be the best term for it, the guard does all the dirty work Wilt just rolls in, no screen set or anything. I'm rendering the clip right now and gonna post the link - you tell me what you think because there are several clips similar and I'm kind of on the fence which category to put them in[/QUOTE]
Okay, sounds good. If they're anything like this:
[url]http://www.nba.com/video/games/pelicans/2013/11/05/0021300055-phx-nop-play4.nba/[/url]
I'd go with drive and dish instead.
[QUOTE=fpliii]Okay, sounds good. If they're anything like this:
[url]http://www.nba.com/video/games/pelicans/2013/11/05/0021300055-phx-nop-play4.nba/[/url]
I'd go with drive and dish instead.[/QUOTE]
Drive and dish is what it is, best suited for the 2 man game section then?
[url]http://youtu.be/-Cy2fcBcIyU[/url]
[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Drive and dish is what it is, best suited for the 2 man game section then?
[url]http://youtu.be/-Cy2fcBcIyU[/url][/QUOTE]
I'd say so yeah. Cool play.
BTW Cavs, and maybe you are doing it, but I would include footage from his college days. The reason being that in the (limited) footage we have of Chamberlain in his college days, he had range of 15+ ft, including jump shots. I am certain that Wilt carried that skill-set into the NBA in his early seasons.
And, just as your college (and HS) footage of Kareem proved, these guys were ultra-skilled centers coming into the NBA. And, incidently, Carl Braun made the same comment in Wilt's early years, as well.
But here again, we are only going to have the "tip of the iceberg" in what Chamberlain actually displayed. There are just too many eye-witness accounts of all of the many amazing feats that he accomplished on a basketball court, to assume that the footage you have (which has proven to be a godsend) is truly indicative of just how dominant Wilt was.
As Fresco mentioned, I suspect that he was blocking shots with his fingertips at the top of the backboard, or grabbing rebounds from well above the basket, or taking lob passes at near top-of -the backboard levels and slamming them. And considering how many baskets he made in his NBA career, and using Braun's analogy, I suspect that he was routinely hitting 15+ foot shots early on, as well as hitting 12+ ft sweeping hooks.
But, you can only showcase what you have, and I guess we should all be thankful for that.
:cheers:
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]BTW Cavs, and maybe you are doing it, but I would include footage from his college days. The reason being that in the (limited) footage we have of Chamberlain in his college days, he had range of 15+ ft, including jump shots. I am certain that Wilt carried that skill-set into the NBA in his early seasons.
And, just as your college (and HS) footage of Kareem proved, these guys were ultra-skilled centers coming into the NBA. And, incidently, Carl Braun made the same comment in Wilt's early years, as well.
But here again, we are only going to have the "tip of the iceberg" in what Chamberlain actually displayed. There are just too many eye-witness accounts of all of the many amazing feats that he accomplished on a basketball court, to assume that the footage you have (which has proven to be a godsend) is truly indicative of just how dominant Wilt was.
As Fresco mentioned, I suspect that he was blocking shots with his fingertips at the top of the backboard, or grabbing rebounds from well above the basket, or taking lob passes at near top-of -the backboard levels and slamming them. And considering how many baskets he made in his NBA career, and using Braun's analogy, I suspect that he was routinely hitting 15+ foot shots early on, as well as hitting 12+ ft sweeping hooks.
But, you can only showcase what you have, and I guess we should all be thankful for that.
:cheers:[/QUOTE]
It's up to CavsFTW obviously but I think it's probably better if he keeps the college footage separate (since the purpose of the video is to give an idea of how he played offensively in the NBA). He was dominant in college (and in the NBA obviously) but it's not the same.
[QUOTE=fpliii]It's up to CavsFTW obviously but I think it's probably better if he keeps the college footage separate (since the purpose of the video is to give an idea of how he played offensively in the NBA). He was dominant in college (and in the NBA obviously) but it's not the same.[/QUOTE]
Normally I would agree. However, there is practically zero footage of an early NBA Wilt. But, there are several near-full games of Wilt in college (and only in his soph season I believe.) And in those games, Chamberlain demonstrates a very developed range of 15+ feet. Hell, his FT form was significantly better than what he would have from the mid-60's on.
Again, I already knew what KAJ looked like in College (I saw a ton of his games on TV), but I was actually as impressed with Cavs HS footage of him. And I think it would be appropriate to showcase Wilt's college skillset as at least some kind of indication of what an early NBA Chamberlain must have been playing like.
And, yes, I am aware that the Wilt-bashers will scoff at Wilt's college competition, but that would not be the point. Virtually everyone knows that Chamberlain destroyed his NBA competition, so who cares if his skill set is displayed against inferior college competition? If a world class sprinter sets a world record running against a bunch of scrubs, does it negate the world record?
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Normally I would agree. However, there is practically zero footage of an early NBA Wilt. But, there are several near-full games of Wilt in college (and only in his soph season I believe.) And in those games, Chamberlain demonstrates a very developed range of 15+ feet. Hell, his FT form was significantly better than what he would have from the mid-60's on.
Again, I already knew what KAJ looked like in College (I saw a ton of his games on TV), but I was actually as impressed with Cavs HS footage of him. And I think it would be appropriate to showcase Wilt's college skillset as at least some kind of indication of what an early NBA Chamberlain must have been playing like.
And, yes, I am aware that the Wilt-bashers will scoff at Wilt's college competition, but that would not be the point. Virtually everyone knows that Chamberlain destroyed his NBA competition, so who cares if his skill set is displayed against inferior college competition? If a world class sprinter sets a world record running against a bunch of scrubs, does it negate the world record?[/QUOTE]
Hm, I'm not sure. I see where you're coming from, but I think it's dicey. Maybe he can make it an addendum at the end or a separate video? If it's mostly the jumper and FT shooting, Cavs wouldn't need to interweave the footage.
[QUOTE=fpliii]Hm, I'm not sure. I see where you're coming from, but I think it's dicey. Maybe he can make it an addendum at the end or a separate video? If it's mostly the jumper and FT shooting, Cavs wouldn't need to interweave the footage.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html[/url]
Carl Braun said "He [Wilt] disorganizes you under the basket the same way [as Bill Russell, on defense]. With Wilt, of course, there's that offense on top of it, which is better than Russell's. He hit on all those jumpers."
"Yes, Wilt hit on those jumpers...Wilt did come into the league with a good touch from the outside, which made his early scoring that much more significant. He wasn't just dunking the ball then."
--Red Holzman. A View from the Bench. P.70
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS][url]http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html[/url]
Carl Braun said "He [Wilt] disorganizes you under the basket the same way [as Bill Russell, on defense]. With Wilt, of course, there's that offense on top of it, which is better than Russell's. He hit on all those jumpers."
"Yes, Wilt hit on those jumpers...Wilt did come into the league with a good touch from the outside, which made his early scoring that much more significant. He wasn't just dunking the ball then."
--Red Holzman. A View from the Bench. P.70[/QUOTE]
Was it extra range on his fadeaway from the post, or was it a designed jumpshot?