Larry Bird vs. Magic Johnson - Complete Career Head-to-Head Stats

dis rite here is chukbe vs lehype at its origins.

add a young gun on da rise to make it bird/magic/mj kobe/lebron/durant

Same arguments wit peak/longevity/teamates/swag/stats/not yet ready/ first or last years don't count/injuries and the occasional would drop 50 each game/20000 hoes/the mountain lion :lol


End of the day nigs in the middle is best tbh. Play 5 positions => versatility, many times not used properly by [B][U]COACH[/U][/B], which all here seem to forget to discuss.

And tbh Cap beats em all. Elite in 3 decades(69 to 89, almost got the 90s), skyhook, stats, peak,defense, mental strength, etc.

Also civilized while not being a media queer, no bastard children/man booty/gambling/rape/decision/f4ggot and any other nigdom afflictions.

If rite now you know how each player plays out and you have a draft wit all of em you go Cap first and that's the definition of the GOAT.

I'm not arguing that Magic > Bird for their careers having a 3-year longer prime and all. Bird after his back injuries in '88 was a shell and Magic was way better from that period onwards. Still the gap is small between them. Like I said all neutral fans from the era would either refuse to rank them or put them side by side on their list.

But from '80 to '86 I still haven't heard any legit argument for Magic > Bird except "Magic could have scored more if he were so inclined...". How do you know Bird couldn't as well? I mean didn't McHale in particular hold him back?

[B]PLEASE LAZERUSS POST SOME SI LINKS THAT PROVE BIRD > MAGIC BEFORE 86-87![/B] I'm willing to take a softer stance in the face of proof but everything I know about the era points in the other direction.

Career 40-point games:

Magic: 6 in RS, 4 in PS
Bird: 42 in RS, 5 in PS

Career 50-point games:

Magic: 0
Bird: 3 (all in RS)

I still can't believe I'm defending Bird against Magic... that's a first but man people are really ripping on Larry here. He was easily a better scorer than Magic and honestly it's laughable to claim otherwise. :lol

And let's debunk this abomination of a myth that Bird was a choker. Larry is the foremost clutch player in the history of the game along with Jordan and West. But I won't really talk about his game-winning shots and huge plays in dying seconds ("That's a steal by Bird!") but we'll look at some larger sample sizes.

[U]Bird in decisive Game 7's and Game 5's:[/U]

[B]27.9 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 6.6 apg on 50.3 %FG/59.5 %TS and ~2.5 topg[/B]

If we exclude his lone game in the '92 playoffs when he was a complete shell we get a staggering [B]29.7 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 6.9 apg on on 49.5 %FG/59.3 %TS[/B].

Larry's teams also went 7-3 in those games.

For comparison Magic averaged [B]20.5 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 14.0 apg on 60.4 %FG/63.2 %TS and 4.5 topg[/B] in his Game 7's.


[U]Now in all elimination games:[/U]

[B]Bird: 23.2 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 6.0 apg on 43.9 %FG/51.6 %TS and ~2.6 topg
Magic: 21.0 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 12.1 apg on 46.7 %FG/56.1 %TS and ~4.9 topg[/B]

Bird's Celtics were 14-9 facing elimination and Magic's Lakers 4-7.

Again no clear edge for Magic. Even his raw numbers were not any more impressive than Bird's in all honesty.

[QUOTE=dankok8]And let's debunk this abomination of a myth that Bird was a choker. Larry is the foremost clutch player in the history of the game along with Jordan and West. But I won't really talk about his game-winning shots and huge plays in dying seconds ("That's a steal by Bird!") but we'll look at some larger sample sizes.

[U]Bird in decisive Game 7's and Game 5's:[/U]

[B]27.9 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 6.6 apg on 50.3 %FG/59.5 %TS and ~2.5 topg[/B]

If we exclude his lone game in the '92 playoffs when he was a complete shell we get a staggering [B]29.7 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 6.9 apg on on 49.5 %FG/59.3 %TS[/B].

Larry's teams also went 7-3 in those games.

For comparison Magic averaged [B]20.5 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 14.0 apg on 60.4 %FG/63.2 %TS and 4.5 topg[/B] in his Game 7's.


[U]Now in all elimination games:[/U]

[B]Bird: 23.2 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 6.0 apg on 43.9 %FG/51.6 %TS and ~2.6 topg
Magic: 21.0 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 12.1 apg on 46.7 %FG/56.1 %TS and ~4.9 topg[/B]

Bird's Celtics were 14-9 facing elimination and Magic's Lakers 4-7.

Again no clear edge for Magic. Even his raw numbers were not any more impressive than Bird's in all honesty.[/QUOTE]

There is not much difference there. I think Bird was clutch for the record.

If Magic featured himself, and wasn't so giving... I doubt this would be close. Its much harder squeezing his points in, because when Magic was hot he still kept giving the ball to Kareem, Worthy, Scott and Cooper. Whereas Bird was the feature. Magic had more control than any player ever and his effect is harder to measure.

Some interesting numbers that I posted in another topic, but they certainly apply here:

[QUOTE]Maybe there is something with my math, but here are the numbers I come up with for their regular seasons:

[B]Bird: 660-237 [COLOR="DarkRed"].736[/COLOR][/B]
[B]Magic: 670-236 [COLOR="DarkRed"].740[/COLOR][/B]

I'll let the smarter guys here either confirm, or reject...
[/QUOTE]

Marchesk:

[QUOTE]Might want to qualify that with regular season. Post season is a different story. [B]Magic sits at[COLOR="DarkRed"] 74%[/COLOR] compared to [COLOR="DarkRed"]Bird's 60.4%[/COLOR][/B].[/QUOTE]

And how about this for the KAJ backers:

[QUOTE]During their 10 regular seasons in the league together, ...

[B]Kareem went 61-40 without Magic, or a [B][COLOR="DarkRed"].604[/COLOR][/B] winning percentage[/B].
[B]Magic went 24-8 without Kareem, or a [COLOR="DarkRed"].750[/COLOR] winning perentage.[/B]

Of course, the Lakers went 1-0 without KAJ in those post-seasons (a title-clinching win BTW), while KAJ went 0-2 without Magic (in a sweeping loss.) And actually you could make the argument that it was 0-3 in that series (since Magic went down with an injury in a tie game.)

So, their TOTAL records, without the other stands at :

[B]KAJ with a 61-43 record ([COLOR="DarkRed"].587[/COLOR])[/B]
[B]Magic with a 25-8 record ([COLOR="DarkRed"].758[/COLOR][/B])

And how about these numbers?

When you combine Magic's 24-8 record without KAJ in those 10 regular seasons, with his three other seasons withOUT Kareem, 62-17, 57-22, and 22-10 (in 95-96 mind you) you get a combined W-L record of 165-57, or a .743 winning percentage. Which, BTW, was better than his overall career winning percentage of .740.

And the reality was, his Lakers would have CLEARLY won a title in '87-88 withOUT Kareem. Kareem was simply putrid in that post-season, was even more awful in the Finals, and was an absolute embarrassment in game seven of those Finals.

Furthermore, I contend that LA was so much better than the rest of the NBA in 86-87, that had they simply replaced Kareem with more minutes for Mychael Thompson and AC Green, that they would STILL have won a title in that season. They just shelled Boston in the Finals, and overall, went 15-3 in the post-season, and outscored their opponents by a +11.4 ppg differential. Kareem was nothing more than a role player in that post-season.

In closing...

Magic took over a STACKED roster in his rookie season, but it was a roster that badly had under-achieved, and had absolutely no leadership (least of all by Kareem, the loner.) He immediately led them to a 60-22 record, and a world title, and deserved his FMVP. He would go on to LEAD the Lakers to a total of NINE Finals, and FIVE rings.

And again, after KAJ retired, they IMPROVED from a 57-25 team, to a 63-19 team. And the next season (Magic's LAST full-time season), he took a injury-riddled, and rapidly declining roster to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals.

How did the Lakers do after Magic retired? They went 43-39, and then 39-43.

Hell, he came back FIVE years later, at age 36, overweight, rusty, and AIDs-ridden, and again led LA to a better record with him, 22-10 (.688), than without him, 31-19 (.620.)

A case could be made that Magic was the greatest "winner" in the history of the NBA.[/QUOTE]

Continued...

And how about Larry's teammates in the post-season?

[QUOTE]Now, how about this (and I am only posting Boston's total eFG% in those post-seasons, instead of taking the time to break down Bird's eFG% and his teammates, but clearly, the difference would have been even more dramatic had I done so)

Playoff eFG%'s...

79-80:
Bird: .480
Boston: .487
League: .476

80-81:
Bird: .474
Boston: .484
League: .473

81-82:
Bird: .430
Boston: .465
League: .476

82-83:
Bird: .427
Boston: .442
League: .484

83-84:
Bird: .532
Boston: .478
League: .487

84-85:
Bird: .469
Boston: .491
League: .497

85-86:
Bird: .551
Boston: .521
League: .497

86-87:
Bird: .491
Boston: .517
League: .495

87-88:
Bird: .467
Boston: .491
League: .488

89-90:
Bird: .470
Boston: .558
League: .490

90-91:
Bird: .418
Boston: .501
League: .492

91-92:
Bird: .500
Boston: .502
League: .492
[/QUOTE]

And just to quiet the Wilt-bashers here:

[QUOTE]Now the next set of numbers are Wilt's playoff eFG%'s, his teammates (collectively and without Wilt), and the post-season league averages.

59-60:
Wilt: .496
Team: .380
League: .402

60-61:
Wilt: .469
Team: .332
League: .403

61-62:
Wilt: .467
Team: .354
League: .411

63-64:
Wilt: .543
Team: .383
League: .420

64-65:
Wilt: .530
Team: .413
League: .429

65-66:
Wilt: .509
Team: .352
League: .440

66-67:
Wilt: .579
Team: .428
League: .424

67-68:
Wilt: .534
Team: .416
League: .446

68-69:
Wilt: .545
Team: .421
League: .431

69-70:
Wilt: .549
Team: .469
League: .455

70-71:
Wilt: .455
Team: .446
League: .445

71-72:
Wilt: .563
Team: .414
League: .439

72-73:
Wilt: .552
Team: .446
League: .451

[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]And let's debunk this abomination of a myth that Bird was a choker. Larry is the foremost clutch player in the history of the game along with Jordan and West. But I won't really talk about his game-winning shots and huge plays in dying seconds ("That's a steal by Bird!") but we'll look at some larger sample sizes.

Bird in decisive Game 7's and Game 5's:

27.9 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 6.6 apg on 50.3 %FG/59.5 %TS and ~2.5 topg

If we exclude his lone game in the '92 playoffs when he was a complete shell we get a staggering 29.7 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 6.9 apg on on 49.5 %FG/59.3 %TS.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm...Wilt in his 11 "at-the-limit" games:

29.9 ppg, 27.3 rpg, 3.9 apg, .581 eFG%, and a .550 TS% (actually, it is probably closer to .560, since I used a TRUE TS%, which is 2pts for every FGA, and 1 pt for every FTA, instead of the goofy .44 crap that TS% actually uses.) Oh, and Chamberlain probably was blocking 8 shots per game, AND, he just crushed his opposing centers in those 11 games, by a staggering margins in EVERY category listed.

And keep in mind that in Bird's 12 playoff seasons, the NBA averaged an eFG% of about .490. In Wilt's 13 post-seasons, the NBA averaged an eFG% of about .435.

So, even with his relatively poor FT shooting, Chamberlain's post-season TS%, compared to the league average, was probably higher than Bird's against league average.

So, NO, Bird was NOT the most clutch playoff performer of all-time.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Some interesting numbers that I posted in another topic, but they certainly apply here:

During their 10 regular seasons in the league together, ...

Kareem went 61-40 without Magic, or a .604 winning percentage.
Magic went 24-8 without Kareem, or a .750 winning perentage.

Of course, the Lakers went 1-0 without KAJ in those post-seasons (a title-clinching win BTW), while KAJ went 0-2 without Magic (in a sweeping loss.) And actually you could make the argument that it was 0-3 in that series (since Magic went down with an injury in a tie game.)

And how about these numbers?

When you combine Magic's 24-8 record without KAJ in those 10 regular seasons, with his three other seasons withOUT Kareem, 62-17, 57-22, and 22-10 (in 95-96 mind you) you get a combined W-L record of 165-57, or a .743 winning percentage. Which, BTW, was better than his overall career winning percentage of .740.

And the reality was, his Lakers would have CLEARLY won a title in '87-88 withOUT Kareem. Kareem was simply putrid in that post-season, was even more awful in the Finals, and was an absolute embarrassment in game seven of those Finals.

Furthermore, I contend that LA was so much better than the rest of the NBA in 86-87, that had they simply replaced Kareem with more minutes for Mychael Thompson and AC Green, that they would STILL have won a title in that season. They just shelled Boston in the Finals, and overall, went 15-3 in the post-season, and outscored their opponents by a +11.4 ppg differential. Kareem was nothing more than a role player in that post-season.

In closing...

Magic took over a STACKED roster in his rookie season, but it was a roster that badly had under-achieved, and had absolutely no leadership (least of all by Kareem, the loner.) He immediately led them to a 60-22 record, and a world title, and deserved his FMVP. He would go on to LEAD the Lakers to a total of NINE Finals, and FIVE rings.

And again, after KAJ retired, they IMPROVED from a 57-25 team, to a 63-19 team. And the next season (Magic's LAST full-time season), he took a injury-riddled, and rapidly declining roster to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals.

How did the Lakers do after Magic retired? They went 43-39, and then 39-43.

Hell, he came back FIVE years later, at age 36, overweight, rusty, and AIDs-ridden, and again led LA to a better record with him, 22-10 (.688), than without him, 31-19 (.620.)

A case could be made that Magic was the greatest "winner" in the history of the NBA.

Continued...[/QUOTE]
Wow, good stuff. Curious as to what the naysayers will say.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Wow, good stuff. Curious as to what the naysayers will say.[/QUOTE]

Probably the same old argument... "well, I watched Bird play, and he was better." Or, "well Bird was injury-riddled in his last three seasons." But, of course, they will ignore the fact that Bird was 23 when he came into the NBA, while Magic was only 20.

Nothing concrete, of course.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]'81...Bird, even with a horrid Finals [/QUOTE]

Bird's 81 finals were not horrid. His points, rebounds and assists averages are unequaled in the Finals to this day.

Bird was fantastic in the ECF finals against Dr. J's Sixers.

There's one person who can claim to have a better playoffs run in 1981 than Larry Bird. His name is Moses Malone.

[QUOTE=KevinNYC]Bird's 81 finals were not horrid. His points, rebounds and assists averages are unequaled in the Finals to this day.

Bird was fantastic in the ECF finals against Dr. J's Sixers.

There's one person who can claim to have a better playoffs run in 1981 than Larry Bird. His name is Moses Malone.[/QUOTE]

Ok, then let's clear up this RIDICULOUS "Tragic" Johnson series nonsense while we are at it.

His '84 Finals...

18.1 ppg, LED the Lakers in rebounding at 7.7 rpg, handed out 13.6 apg, and shot .560 from the field (Bird was at .484 and KAJ was at .481 BTW.)

"Tragic"...:roll: :roll: :roll:

[QUOTE=Pointguard]There is not much difference there. I think Bird was clutch for the record.

If Magic featured himself, and wasn't so giving... I doubt this would be close. Its much harder squeezing his points in, because when Magic was hot he still kept giving the ball to Kareem, Worthy, Scott and Cooper. Whereas Bird was the feature. Magic had more control than any player ever and his effect is harder to measure.[/QUOTE]

Come on man it's not like Bird was often going all out trying to score either. Heck he was playing the 85-86 season shooting jumpers left-handed and stuff just because he wanted a challenge. Magic could have averaged 22-24 ppg consistently but Bird could have eclipsed 30+ ppg quite easily.

[QUOTE]

During their 10 regular seasons in the league together, ...

Kareem went 61-40 without Magic, or a .604 winning percentage.
Magic went 24-8 without Kareem, or a .750 winning perentage.

Of course, the Lakers went 1-0 without KAJ in those post-seasons (a title-clinching win BTW), while KAJ went 0-2 without Magic (in a sweeping loss.) And actually you could make the argument that it was 0-3 in that series (since Magic went down with an injury in a tie game.)

So, their TOTAL records, without the other stands at :

KAJ with a 61-43 record (.587)
Magic with a 25-8 record (.758)

And how about these numbers?

When you combine Magic's 24-8 record without KAJ in those 10 regular seasons, with his three other seasons withOUT Kareem, 62-17, 57-22, and 22-10 (in 95-96 mind you) you get a combined W-L record of 165-57, or a .743 winning percentage. Which, BTW, was better than his overall career winning percentage of .740.

And the reality was, his Lakers would have CLEARLY won a title in '87-88 withOUT Kareem. Kareem was simply putrid in that post-season, was even more awful in the Finals, and was an absolute embarrassment in game seven of those Finals.

Furthermore, I contend that LA was so much better than the rest of the NBA in 86-87, that had they simply replaced Kareem with more minutes for Mychael Thompson and AC Green, that they would STILL have won a title in that season. They just shelled Boston in the Finals, and overall, went 15-3 in the post-season, and outscored their opponents by a +11.4 ppg differential. Kareem was nothing more than a role player in that post-season.

In closing...

Magic took over a STACKED roster in his rookie season, but it was a roster that badly had under-achieved, and had absolutely no leadership (least of all by Kareem, the loner.) He immediately led them to a 60-22 record, and a world title, and deserved his FMVP. He would go on to LEAD the Lakers to a total of NINE Finals, and FIVE rings.

And again, after KAJ retired, they IMPROVED from a 57-25 team, to a 63-19 team. And the next season (Magic's LAST full-time season), he took a injury-riddled, and rapidly declining roster to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals.

How did the Lakers do after Magic retired? They went 43-39, and then 39-43.

Hell, he came back FIVE years later, at age 36, overweight, rusty, and AIDs-ridden, and again led LA to a better record with him, 22-10 (.688), than without him, 31-19 (.620.)

A case could be made that Magic was the greatest "winner" in the history of the NBA.
[/QUOTE]

How terribly useless is this post. You mean to tell me the Lakers didn't get any worse when a 42 year old Kareem retired? Yea man peak Magic was way better than 40+ year old Kareem. Fascinating... tell me more! :hammerhead:

Again Game 6 in 1980... WAS ONE GAME!! You won't find anyone who knows a god damn thing about the NBA in that season saying rookie Magic was as good as Kareem.


[QUOTE=KevinNYC]Bird's 81 finals were not horrid. His points, rebounds and assists averages are unequaled in the Finals to this day.

Bird was fantastic in the ECF finals against Dr. J's Sixers.

There's one person who can claim to have a better playoffs run in 1981 than Larry Bird. His name is Moses Malone.[/QUOTE]

Finally a voice of reason!

Dude I'm a big-time Magic fan and I have to defend Bird (and Kareem) in this thread. This is how ridiculous this is. He is calling Bird a choker! Larry freaking Bird... And he's trying to discredit Kareem by saying that at 41 and 42 years old in his last 2 seasons he wasn't that good. SMH

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Ok, then let's clear up this RIDICULOUS "Tragic" Johnson series nonsense while we are at it.

His '84 Finals...

18.1 ppg, LED the Lakers in rebounding at 7.7 rpg, handed out 13.6 apg, and shot .560 from the field (Bird was at .484 and KAJ was at .481 BTW.)

"Tragic"...:roll: :roll: :roll:[/QUOTE]

John Stockton averaged around 18/14 on 50% shooting over 5 years in the postseason while playing very good defense. Was Stockton ever as good as prime Magic?

Stats without context are meaningless.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Ok, then let's clear up this RIDICULOUS "Tragic" Johnson series nonsense while we are at it.[/QUOTE]

Fine by me. You'll notice I don't make that argument. In fact, I don't even I don't even offer an opinion in these threads. There's a lot of mythology passing for argument build up 80's basketball, like the Celtics weren't a running team, the Celtics were blue collar, etc, etc.

[QUOTE=dankok8]In 88-89, Bird's back gives out and he's never the same player again.[/QUOTE]

It was not a back injury that caused Bird to miss this season

[QUOTE=KevinNYC]Bird's 81 finals were not horrid. His points, rebounds and assists averages are unequaled in the Finals to this day.
[/quote]
15/15/7 huh??? Its late but I know that's wrong? Wilt 18/28/8? Jordan 41/8/6 Duncan 24/17/5 Shaq 33/16/5 Magic 26/8/13 Lebron 28/10/7 and I know they all had much better shooting percentages. Are you saying with a bare minimum of 7 assist?

It was definitely a major let down in the finals to have Cedric Maxwell be the man. I just don't see Cedric Maxwell winning it that in any other year. He sucked.

[QUOTE=dankok8]Come on man it's not like Bird was often going all out trying to score either. Heck he was playing the 85-86 season shooting jumpers left-handed and stuff just because he wanted a challenge. Magic could have averaged 22-24 ppg consistently but Bird could have eclipsed 30+ ppg quite easily.



How terribly useless is this post. You mean to tell me the Lakers didn't get any worse when a 42 year old Kareem retired? Yea man peak Magic was way better than 40+ year old Kareem. Fascinating... tell me more! :hammerhead:

Again Game 6 in 1980... WAS ONE GAME!! You won't find anyone who knows a god damn thing about the NBA in that season saying rookie Magic was as good as Kareem.




Finally a voice of reason!

Dude I'm a big-time Magic fan and I have to defend Bird (and Kareem) in this thread. This is how ridiculous this is. He is calling Bird a choker! Larry freaking Bird... And he's trying to discredit Kareem by saying that at 41 and 42 years old in his last 2 seasons he wasn't that good. SMH[/QUOTE]

WE already KNOW that Magic was capable of scoring FAR more. 22-24 is absolutely pure S**t. He was handing out 12-13 apg and scoring 24 ppg for cryingoutloud (and had a Finals of 26 ppg on .541 FG% and .960 FT% while handing out 13 assists per game.) 30 ppg would have been a reasonable estimation had Magic shot-jacked as much as Bird did in his career.

And, by 1982, MAGIC was EASILY considered better than Kareem. In fact, in a span of six games, went 6-0 without Kareem, and when he returned to the starting lineup, they lost by 20 points. There was a question, THEN, about just how needed KAJ was.

[url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1125158/index.htm[/url]

And Magic was FAR better in that post-season (and much better than your boy Bird, BTW, too), and easily won FMVP #2. And let's get real here about '82. The ONLY reason that Magic didn't get much pub in the MVP race, was because HE was blamed for the firing of Westhead. He was an eyelash away from a TRIPLE-DOUBLE season AND post-season...all while SHARING the PG position.

After KAJ's 80-81 season, it was ALL Magic. And again, anyone that actually followed basketball back then, would tell you that KAJ was NEVER a leader. He was a loner who offended his own teammates. His ONE title before Magic came at his absolute peak, and with OSCAR running the show. After Oscar retired, he was putting up useless and often under-achieving stats. He was CAPABLE of so much more, but he lacked motivation and drive. He couldn't carry LOADED rosters past far inferior rosters (and yet Rick Barry could.)


And please, get off of this "I am a Magic fan" crap. As well as defending KAJ. I have ripped your completely exaggerated takes on KAJ and Wilt to SHREDS here. A PEAK KAJ was never remotely as dominant as a prime Chamberlain. And please, give me the FACTS that prove that KAJ was at his PEAK in '76-77. Not one poster has come up with the reasons why a 70-72 KAJ could score more, shoot better against league average, rebound better (and before you use 76-77, give me the list of rebounders in the league...they were awful.) A young KAJ played much better defense, was far more UNSTOPPABLE, anchored the best defensive team in the league, was a better passer, more efficient, and was a much bigger WINNER. The rest of his career was slow decline.


BTW, here were the "clutch" Bird's averages in his five Finals:

23.1 ppg, 11.6 rpg, 6.0 apg, .457 FG%, .431 3pt%, .887 FT%, .473 eFG%, and a .534 TS%.

And keep in mind that the post-season league eFG% average was .490 in that span.

In his 31 Finals games, he had as many games in which he shot under .399 (including two in which he shot under .299...and a game seven of .333), ELEVEN, as he did in which he shot over .500.

And again, his teammates were collectively shooting better than he was.

Larry the Legend.

[QUOTE]How terribly useless is this post. You mean to tell me the Lakers didn't get any worse when a 42 year old Kareem retired? Yea man peak Magic was way better than 40+ year old Kareem. Fascinating... tell me more[/QUOTE]

Magic's W-L record, withOUT Kareem, and during their 10 years in the league together, was 25-8 (.758), while KAJ's was 61-43 (.587) without Magic in that span. And again, that 25-8 record came in varying stages of their 10 seasons together, including a 6-0 mark in '82.

THEN, after KAJ retired, did Magic's Lakers suddenly collapse. Hell no, they IMPROVED. His two teams immediately after Kareem retired, went 63-19 and 58-24.

So, collectively, Magic went 25-8, 63-19, and 58-24 withOUT Kareem...or a 146-51 W-L record (.741.)

As the above clearly shows, Magic certainly didn't need Kareem nearly as much as KAJ needed Magic. No question about it, Magic had a far greater impact on the 80's Lakers than KAJ did.

[B]And this dude goes on with ludicrous posts. Ban pls.[/B]

[QUOTE=dankok8]

Dude I'm a big-time Magic fan and I have to defend Bird (and Kareem) in this thread. This is how ridiculous this is. He is calling Bird a choker! Larry freaking Bird... And he's trying to discredit Kareem by saying that at 41 and 42 years old in his last 2 seasons he wasn't that good. SMH[/QUOTE]

Totally agree, it's laughable really. Classic case of insecurity. He's convinced if he screams long and loud enough, and at the same time talks smack about the opposition, that people will find his opinion more credible. But they won't of course. Bird was the best of the two until 86-87, and no revisionist history can ever change that. I still have Magic slightly ahead of Bird alltime, but it's close.

[QUOTE=dankok8]Come on man it's not like Bird was often going all out trying to score either. Heck he was playing the 85-86 season shooting jumpers left-handed and stuff just because he wanted a challenge. Magic could have averaged 22-24 ppg consistently but Bird could have eclipsed 30+ ppg [/QUOTE]
Huh, Bird was the feature while Magic featured others. Magic from year one was capable of playing all positions, fill in for Kareem and get 42/15/7 to close out the championship against a great defensive team. He featured Kareem in the half court and Coop/Worthy/Green/Scott on the break which were easy baskets that would have put even more distance on his his stellar FG%. They ran at least 15 times a game on (Magics steals and rebounds were close to double digits alone). Magic was a mismatch for any defender in the half court.

Bird shot on average six or seven shots more per game than Magic post seasn and RS. Yet Bird in your clutch shooting examples is only one made basket above Magic. And when Magic is hot he's still a distributor and would have definitely scored more if he wasn't trying to keep everybody happy. Gives Magic six more shots per game and there is no discussion here.

The stats prove that bird is better

[QUOTE=dankok8]

[B]PLEASE LAZERUSS POST SOME SI LINKS THAT PROVE BIRD > MAGIC BEFORE 86-87![/B] I'm willing to take a softer stance in the face of proof but everything I know about the era points in the other direction.
[/QUOTE]

@ dankok8
I think you meant, links that prove Magic> Bird before '87?

Anyways...

I have no personal agenda here as a lifelong Magic fan who feels that his overall ranking is higher than Bird's, but I would like to see a response to your request in bold. Not particularly from Laz, but anyone. In my [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241244"]80's Bird GOAT conversation thread,[/URL], there were several declarations between '84 and '88 that Bird may have been the GOAT. Admittedly I haven't look as diligently, but I haven't found the same reports for Magic prior to 1987.

[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]And this dude goes on with ludicrous posts. Ban pls.[/B][/QUOTE]
I remember when jlauber used to post cool and interesting facts from the past, sadly this is what he has become.

[QUOTE=havoc33]Bird was the best of the two until 86-87, and no revisionist history can ever change that. I still have Magic slightly ahead of Bird alltime, but it's close.[/QUOTE]
Best example I can give you.

Say Derrick Rose comes into the league and in his first year has the best finals game since MJ to close out the Lakers. Durant wins the next year chip but Ibaka not Westbrook, wins finals MVP. The next year Rose wins his second Fmvp. Durant would be in the same boat he is in as he is now with Lebron. This scenario covers the first four years with Bird/Magic.

The next year Rose makes it to the finals - got swept tho but not by the team that swept Durants team in the first round. More props to Ros

[QUOTE=CelticBaller]The stats prove that bird is better[/QUOTE]
They most certainly do not.

Oh and, 1979-1983 Magic > 1989-1983 Bird especially when you factor postseason play

[QUOTE=ThePhantomCreep]They most certainly do not.

Oh and, 1979-1983 Magic > 1989-1982 Bird especially when you factor postseason play[/QUOTE]

[B]2 posts, basically registered to say this :lol clear alt :roll:

Gonna make me another account to say Bird > Magic :rolleyes: [/B]

[QUOTE=jlip]@ dankok8
I think you meant, links that prove Magic> Bird before '87?

Anyways...

I have no personal agenda here as a lifelong Magic fan who feels that his overall ranking is higher than Bird's, but I would like to see a response to your request in bold. Not particularly from Laz, but anyone. In my [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241244"]80's Bird GOAT conversation thread,[/URL], there were several declarations between '84 and '88 that Bird may have been the GOAT. Admittedly I haven't look as diligently, but I haven't found the same reports for Magic prior to 1987.[/QUOTE]

[B]They/he's hiding now, making alt's too :oldlol: [/B]

[QUOTE=Pointguard]15/15/7 huh??? Its late but I know that's wrong? Wilt 18/28/8? Jordan 41/8/6 Duncan 24/17/5 Shaq 33/16/5 Magic 26/8/13 Lebron 28/10/7 and I know they all had much better shooting percentages. Are you saying with a bare minimum of 7 assist?

It was definitely a major let down in the finals to have Cedric Maxwell be the man. I just don't see Cedric Maxwell winning it that in any other year. He sucked.[/QUOTE]

I was imprecise. The following is Unequaled since 1981.
In an NBA Finals, averaging
15 or more points,
15 or more rebounds
7 or more assists

I've posted elsewhere on this board about this, but his coach was surprised Maxwell won it, he expected it to be Bird especially as he was clearly the best player in the closeout game. Maxwell didn't have 6 good games either. He also had a couple of off nights. So he ended up average about 17 ppg for the series not a giant advance over Bird's 15ppg. Field goal percentage was the only place Maxwell was clearly better than Bird that series. In my mind that's just not enough difference to be ahead of Bird's other stats. Bird also had 2.3 steals a game that series. He shot poorly, but his all around play was pretty darn high.

Here are the players who averaged more than 15 rebounds in the NBA finals series since 1981.

Moses Malone 16.3 1981
Larry Bird 15.3 1981
Moses Malone 18.3 1983
Shaq 16.3 2000
Shaq 15.8 2001
Duncan 17.0 2003

It's only happened 5 times in 32 years. It's a rare thing. Of course, of those guys Bird is the only lead both teams in assists.

Where do you get this idea that Maxwell sucked? Between 79 and 81 in both field goal percentage and offensive rating he was

1
1
3

In win shares those years, he was
5
3
7

He was a very good offensive rebounder, great around the basket and had some clutch moments. Definitely the kind of guy any team could use.

[quote]
Where do you get this idea that Maxwell sucked? Between 79 and 81 in both field goal percentage and offensive rating he was

1
1
3

In win shares those years, he was
5
3
7

He was a very good offensive rebounder, great around the basket and had some clutch moments. Definitely the kind of guy any team could use.[/QUOTE]


That's something else Magic didn't get credit for in his first 4 years, Magic was a superior offensive rebounder to Bird (or Maxwell) RS or postseason. That's something that escaped these talks as well.

Maxwell was a 14 and 5 guy most of his career that only took very safe shots. He wasn't a skilled player. I"ll give you useful but finals MVP is a bit crazy.

Kind of agree with KevinNYC that Bird should have gotten the '81 Finals MVP. He was fighting peak Moses virtually even on the boards (15.3 vs 16.3) and led both teams in assists (7.0) and steals (2.3) by a large margin.

[U]Series Stats[/U]

Bird: 15.3 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 7.0 apg, 2.3 spg, 0.5 bpg on 41.9 %FG/46.0 %TS
Maxwell: 17.7 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 2.8 apg, 0.2 spg, 1.0 bpg on 56.8 %FG/61.1 %TS

[U]Stats in Wins[/U]

Bird: 16.0 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 8.0 apg, 2.0 spg, 0.8 bpg on 43.8 %FG/46.5 %TS
Maxwell: 19.0 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 3.5 apg, 0.3 spg, 1.3 bpg on 57.7 %FG/62.5 %TS

But let's break it down game-by-game shall we?

Game 1 [B] Bird: 18/21/9 on 52.9%[/B] Maxwell: 10/9/5 on 33.3%

Game 2 [B]Bird: 19/21/3 on 44.4%[/B] Maxwell: 6/4/2 on 37.5%

Game 3 Bird: 8/13/10 on 27.3% [B]Maxwell: 19/10/0 on 56.3%[/B]

Game 4 Bird: 8/12/7 on 27.3% [B]Maxwell: 24/14/1 on 64.3%[/B]

Game 5 Bird: 12/12/8 on 31.3% [B]Maxwell: 28/15/3 on 76.9%[/B]

Game 6 [B]Bird: 26/13/5 on 55.0%[/B] Maxwell: 19/5/6 on 63.6%

Looking at the overall statline Bird easily bests Maxwell in Game 1, 2, and 6. Even in Game 3 the gap isn't big considering Larry's all-around play with 10 assists and 5 steals. And he only took 11 shots after all. The only Boston win where Maxwell was clearly better is in Game 5 and it was a pivotal game.

Ultimately it's not a travesty or anything. Cedric deserved it but Bird could have easily gotten it and deserved it as well. Bird probably slightly more if you ask me...

[QUOTE=KevinNYC]I was imprecise. The following is Unequaled since 1981.
In an NBA Finals, averaging
15 or more points,
15 or more rebounds
7 or more assists

I've posted elsewhere on this board about this, but his coach was surprised Maxwell won it, he expected it to be Bird especially as he was clearly the best player in the closeout game. Maxwell didn't have 6 good games either. He also had a couple of off nights. So he ended up average about 17 ppg for the series not a giant advance over Bird's 15ppg. Field goal percentage was the only place Maxwell was clearly better than Bird that series. In my mind that's just not enough difference to be ahead of Bird's other stats. Bird also had 2.3 steals a game that series. He shot poorly, but his all around play was pretty darn high.

Here are the players who averaged more than 15 rebounds in the NBA finals series since 1981.

Moses Malone 16.3 1981
Larry Bird 15.3 1981
Moses Malone 18.3 1983
Shaq 16.3 2000
Shaq 15.8 2001
Duncan 17.0 2003

It's only happened 5 times in 32 years. It's a rare thing. Of course, of those guys Bird is the only lead both teams in assists.

Where do you get this idea that Maxwell sucked? Between 79 and 81 in both field goal percentage and offensive rating he was

1
1
3

In win shares those years, he was
5
3
7

He was a very good offensive rebounder, great around the basket and had some clutch moments. Definitely the kind of guy any team could use.[/QUOTE]

:applause:

[B]Not just since 1981, I believe, but rather ever, which is even crazier.[/B]

[QUOTE=dankok8]Kind of agree with KevinNYC that Bird should have gotten the '81 Finals MVP. He was fighting peak Moses virtually even on the boards (15.3 vs 16.3) and led both teams in assists (7.0) and steals (2.3) by a large margin.

[U]Series Stats[/U]

Bird: 15.3 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 7.0 apg, 2.3 spg, 0.5 bpg on 41.9 %FG/46.0 %TS
Maxwell: 17.7 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 2.8 apg, 0.2 spg, 1.0 bpg on 56.8 %FG/61.1 %TS

[U]Stats in Wins[/U]

Bird: 16.0 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 8.0 apg, 2.0 spg, 0.8 bpg on 43.8 %FG/46.5 %TS
Maxwell: 19.0 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 3.5 apg, 0.3 spg, 1.3 bpg on 57.7 %FG/62.5 %TS

But let's break it down game-by-game shall we?

Game 1 [B] Bird: 18/21/9 on 52.9%[/B] Maxwell: 10/9/5 on 33.3%

Game 2 [B]Bird: 19/21/3 on 44.4%[/B] Maxwell: 6/4/2 on 37.5%

Game 3 Bird: 8/13/10 on 27.3% [B]Maxwell: 19/10/0 on 56.3%[/B]

Game 4 Bird: 8/12/7 on 27.3% [B]Maxwell: 24/14/1 on 64.3%[/B]

Game 5 Bird: 12/12/8 on 31.3% [B]Maxwell: 28/15/3 on 76.9%[/B]

Game 6 [B]Bird: 26/13/5 on 55.0%[/B] Maxwell: 19/5/6 on 63.6%

Looking at the overall statline Bird easily bests Maxwell in Game 1, 2, and 6. Even in Game 3 the gap isn't big considering Larry's all-around play with 10 assists and 5 steals. And he only took 11 shots after all. The only Boston win where Maxwell was clearly better is in Game 5 and it was a pivotal game.

Ultimately it's not a travesty or anything. Cedric deserved it but Bird could have easily gotten it and deserved it as well. Bird probably slightly more if you ask me...[/QUOTE]

:applause:

[B]Max was pretty good, consistent with his scoring and also clutch but seriously that FMVP belongs to Larry. Difference of 3 ppg is not really big, Cornbread with much higher FG% even though Bird was above in FT%, still everything else just goes to Bird by a clear margin, plus he killed the reigning MVP in the ECF so most attention on him (that's why the big assists also even with Tiny handling the ball), and he came through in the final game6, very clutch.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7jCwThefw4[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoXOAs4Gz5A[/url][/B]

Doesn't really matter if Maxwell won Finals MVP, Bird was the leader of the team and should get credit for it.

Having said that, Magic was clearly the better Finals performer.

[QUOTE=dankok8]

But let's break it down game-by-game shall we?

Game 1 [B] Bird: 18/21/9 on 52.9%[/B] Maxwell: 10/9/5 on 33.3%
[B]Celtics win by 3[/B]

Game 2 [B]Bird: 19/21/3 on 44.4%[/B] Maxwell: 6/4/2 on 37.5%
[B]Celtic lose by 2[/B]

Game 3 Bird: 8/13/10 on 27.3% [B]Maxwell: 19/10/0 on 56.3%[/B]
[B]Boston wins by 23[/B]

Game 4 Bird: 8/12/7 on 27.3% [B]Maxwell: 24/14/1 on 64.3%[/B]
[B]Boston loses by 5[/B]

Game 5 Bird: 12/12/8 on 31.3% [B]Maxwell: 28/15/3 on 76.9%[/B]
[B]Boston wins by 29[/B]

Game 6 [B]Bird: 26/13/5 on 55.0%[/B] Maxwell: 19/5/6 on 63.6%
[B]Boston wins by 11.[/B]

Looking at the overall statline Bird easily bests Maxwell in Game 1, 2, and 6. Even in Game 3 the gap isn't big considering Larry's all-around play with 10 assists and 5 steals. And he only took 11 shots after all. The only Boston win where Maxwell was clearly better is in Game 5 and it was a pivotal game.
[/QUOTE]

If Maxwell had 6 solid games, I would have no problem saying they picked the right guy, but he didn't. My argument is the only way you can pick Maxwell is if you go solely by points/shooting and ignore the other aspects of the game. You could argue that if in game 2 Maxwell had his average game the Celtics go up 2-0

So Bird basically had three really poor shooting games. However, two of these are near triple doubles and the Celtics went 2-1 in them. Also these wins were blowouts where the Celtics won by their defense. These two wins were also Maxwell's big games. He scored a lot because the Celtics fast break was working.

Remember this was before "triple-double" was a common phrase and the standard for measuring a great all around game. Tweak Bird's stats a bit and he has 3 triple doubles in 6 games.

One extra assist in game 1.
[B]Another made basket in game 3.
Two extra assists in game 5.

These[/B] are his bad games too.

I think the reason Maxwell won it, was

A. The voters valued scoring/shooting way more that other parts of the game
B. Maxwell performing this well as unusual as Bird shooting this badly. It was like they missed game 6 which was a big game for Bird and a close game until Bird put it away with a really nice run in the fourth.

Bird had a poor shooting series is true. Bird had a bad series is simply not true.

[url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1124491/3/index.htm[/url]

Article from 1981 on the Series.

[QUOTE=ThePhantomCreep]They most certainly do not.

Oh and, 1979-1983 Magic > 1989-1983 Bird especially when you factor postseason play[/QUOTE]
Yes they do, you don't have to be smart to know this, though you do need to wash off magics aids infested semen of your glasses

[QUOTE=CelticBaller]Yes they do, you don't have to be smart to know this, though you do need to wash off magics aids infested semen of your glasses[/QUOTE]

The OP's stats favor Magic by a clear margin. Crawl out of Bird's short shorts and take a look.

Here's a good post by Fatal9 that covers Kareem's career in the 70's:

[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4986678&postcount=110"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4986678&postcount=110[/URL]

[QUOTE=jlip]@ dankok8
I think you meant, links that prove Magic> Bird before '87?

Anyways...

I have no personal agenda here as a lifelong Magic fan who feels that his overall ranking is higher than Bird's, but I would like to see a response to your request in bold. Not particularly from Laz, but anyone. In my [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241244"]80's Bird GOAT conversation thread,[/URL], there were several declarations between '84 and '88 that Bird may have been the GOAT. Admittedly I haven't look as diligently, but I haven't found the same reports for Magic prior to 1987.[/QUOTE]

In their first four years in the league together, almost every media outlet had the two rated about even...except in the MVP balloting. And again, the reason for that? Magic's reputation for supposedly getting Westhead fired (and I debunked that myth here a while back), and two, KAJ taking votes from Magic. And, you could add Magic's injury in 80-81, which set him back, as well.

In any case, I just spent about five minutes googling Magic, and came up with these three. Take them anyway you want, but at that time, the two were considered near equals...

[url]http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2013/04/wayback-machine-part-viii-1982-complete.html[/url]

[QUOTE]5) Bird's CHPB profile began with these words: "Belongs in a higher league...Absolutely the best all-around player in the universe. Could carry the Celtics on a dynasty trip." [B]Despite that lofty praise, a good case could be made that--contrary to the way things were reported by many media outlets at the time--Bird never equaled or surpassed Magic Johnson[/B]: Johnson beat Bird head to head in the 1979 NCAA Championship Game, Johnson won Finals MVP honors as a rookie--guiding the Lakers to victory over a Philadelphia team that routed Bird's Celtics 4-1 in the Eastern Conference Finals--and Johnson ultimately topped Bird five to three in NBA championships, including the league's first back to back titles since Bill Russell retired. Ironically, by the time that Johnson finally received his due vis a vis Bird a new star eclipsed both of them: Michael Jordan won the much heralded MJ versus MJ showdown in the 1991 Finals, bested Johnson's repeat accomplishment by leading the Bulls to a three-peat and then came out of retirement to win a second three-peat.[/QUOTE]


[url]http://www.nytimes.com/1982/05/09/sports/magic-johnson-learns-lesson.html[/url]

[QUOTE]In his third pro season, the 22-year-old Johnson has been thinking and playing as well as anyone else. He became only the third player to attain 700 rebounds and 700 assists in a season. For the third consecutive year, he led the league in steals, averaging 2.67. Now 6-9, he was the league's best forward in rebounding, grabbing 9.63 a game, good for 11th place over all. Magical Statistics

And in the playoffs, he has been, well, magical. In the Lakers' four-game semifinal sweep of Phoenix, he had three ''triple doubles'' - that is, he attained double figures in scoring, rebounds and assists in three games. He failed to make a sweep, getting nine assists in the other game.

The Lakers open the four-of-seven-game Western Conference final against the San Antonio Spurs here Sunday.[B] If Johnson is not universally considered the best all-round player in the game, he is at least No. 1-A, behind Larry Bird. But the kind of swift fall from the heights that he had once experienced in his backyard happened to him earlier this season[/B]. On Nov. 18, he made the mistake of thinking, for an ill-timed public moment, that he and Paul Westhead, then the coach, could not work together.[/QUOTE]


[url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1004649/1/index.htm[/url]

[QUOTE][B]They would never be even again. Magic's talents were peaking, and he was assuming more and more of the offensive burden for the Lakers. In 1984-85 he scored 37 points to outdo Bird's 33 as the Lakers won the second L.A.-Boston meeting of the season 117-111. That was a prelude to the Finals rematch in the spring[/B].

The Celtics won the first game of that series 148-114, but the humbled Lakers rallied around their captain, Abdul-Jabbar, to win Game 2, in Boston. After the teams split Games 3 and 4, Kareem had 36 points and Magic contributed 26 points and 17 assists as L.A. took control of the playoffs with a 120-111 victory at the Forum. The Lakers regained the championship in Boston, beating the Celtics 111-100 with series MVP Abdul-Jabbar scoring 29 and Magic turning in a triple double of 14 points, 10 rebounds and 14 assists.

The next season was a triumph for Bird and a frustration for Magic. Boston had 67 regular-season victories and then won the championship by defeating Houston in six games. Bird was now even with Magic where it counted most: Each had won three championships in his seven years in the league. The Lakers had been upset by the Rockets in the Western Conference finals, and Riley speculated aloud that perhaps Los Angeles fans should start lowering their sights.

That judgment turned out to be premature, for the 1986-87 Lakers turned out to be one of the best teams of all time. Magic, unquestionably the league's best player, won the first of his three MVP awards. "For overall contributions, nobody else was close," said Bird. He would know; he had three regular-season MVP titles of his own.

Among Magic's sweet triumphs in the 1986-87 season was the victory that snapped a 38-game Celtic winning streak at Boston Garden. Even more spectacular was a February meeting between the two teams in Los Angeles. Entering the game, the Celtics and the Lakers had identical records (37-12). L.A. rallied from a 17-point third-quarter deficit behind Magic's heroics (39 points, seven rebounds and 10 assists) to sweep the season series. "I don't remember many regular-season games," Riley says, "but I remember that one. I can still see Magic coming out of a spin for a key three-point play and then running by our bench with a big grin."

The Lakers were prohibitive favorites in the 1987 Finals, both because they were so good and because the Celtics were plagued by injuries and lacked depth. And, indeed, it turned out to be a Magic show from start to finish. He began with 29 points and 13 assists in L.A.'s opening-game victory and followed that with 22 points and 20 assists as the Lakers went up 2-0. He added 32 points in Game 3, even though the Celtics pulled out a victory. Then came that epic fourth game.

The hook shot that won the game was Magic's newest trick. He had been working on it with Abdul-Jabbar and called it his "junior, junior skyhook." One of the hallmarks of the Magic-Bird rivalry was the way each expanded his game over the years. Magic added a hook and lengthened the range on his set shot