The GOAT List: 2014 Edition

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Rondo is not top 100 yet. He's not up to par with the Billups or Parkers yet. His last 2 seas9ns have been absent basically.

Can't see him in top 100 over guards like even a Terry Porter yet. Yet.[/QUOTE]
Ill take Rondo over billups any day, possibly parker too. Neither have done anything near what Rondo has done in the playoffs year after year. Of course Im sure no one will agree withme, as Ive always held rondo Iin much higher regard than most people but Iits hard to argue whith what hes done. Billups and parkers only case is longevity in my mind.

[QUOTE=magnax1]Ill take Rondo over billups any day, possibly parker too. Neither have done anything near what Rondo has done in the playoffs year after year. Of course Im sure no one will agree withme, as Ive always held rondo Iin much higher regard than most people but Iits hard to argue whith what hes done. Billups and parkers only case is longevity in my mind.[/QUOTE]
No one will agree with you because you are wrong. I understand having certain guys way higher than other people do but rondo isn't anywhere close to billups or Parker historically.

[QUOTE=magnax1]Ill take Rondo over billups any day, possibly parker too. Neither have done anything near what Rondo has done in the playoffs year after year. Of course Im sure no one will agree withme, as Ive always held rondo Iin much higher regard than most people but Iits hard to argue whith what hes done. Billups and parkers only case is longevity in my mind.[/QUOTE]
Yet. They've been around longer and done much more. He'll get there.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]
Also Magnax and anyone else....what do you think of the ranking of the three current players in this recent group...Harden, Noah, Blake?
G?[/QUOTE]
It's nearly impossible to correctly rank guys playing today along with the past greats, because you're caught between ranking them according to their career accomplishments, which puts them too low, making your list awfully dated, or ranking them according to future potential and doing a disservice to everyone else who actually did retire.
:durantunimpressed:

[QUOTE=raiderfan19]How exactly is griffin already ahead of Marion? He has one season of being able to create for himself, something Marion admittedly didn't do, but Marion was a much better defender, shooter at least an equivalent rebounder and he did it for a lot longer.[/QUOTE]

Griffin has 3 all-NBA second teams selections and a 3rd place in the MVP voting. He's a different level of player than Marion. We saw that for sure when Paul went out with injury last year and Blake stepped up big time. He may not have quite enough of a track record to be above a guy like Marion on second look, but it could certainly go either way depending on your value of peak vs. longevity.

[QUOTE=Gotterdammerung]It's nearly impossible to correctly rank guys playing today along with the past greats, because you're caught between ranking them according to their career accomplishments, which puts them too low, making your list awfully dated, or ranking them according to future potential and doing a disservice to everyone else who actually did retire.
:durantunimpressed:[/QUOTE]

I could be wrong, but I feel like I am getting better at ranking active players.

For me it starts with looking at them as if their career was over today. I try very hard to project good or bad momentum in their career into the rankings, but that can be hard.

So you are ranking griffin higher based on 20 games?

And btw I agree that griffin this year was probablu better than Marion ever was. The thing I find interesting is what in your mind separates Marion from say Kevin Garnett other than passing. Garnett was absolutely a better player and while he was certainly much better at creating his own offense(and offense for others) he was also never a guy who you could just give the ball to and say go to work.

This is a massive undertaking and I appreciate the work that goes into it. I'm not trying to be a dick because it's a lot easier to point out the flaws in someone else's list than it is to make your own but I just don't see how you justify some of the guys I know are coming being ahead of Marion and I know that you are going to rank kg ahead of some guys who were much better at being "the man" because of his all around game and I'm just curious to hear your rationale.

[QUOTE=magnax1]Ill take Rondo over billups any day, possibly parker too. Neither have done anything near what Rondo has done in the playoffs year after year. Of course Im sure no one will agree withme, as Ive always held rondo Iin much higher regard than most people but Iits hard to argue whith what hes done. Billups and parkers only case is longevity in my mind.[/QUOTE]
What exactly do you think rondo has done in the playoffs???

[QUOTE=raiderfan19]So you are ranking griffin higher based on 20 games?

And btw I agree that griffin this year was probablu better than Marion ever was. The thing I find interesting is what in your mind separates Marion from say Kevin Garnett other than passing. Garnett was absolutely a better player and while he was certainly much better at creating his own offense(and offense for others) he was also never a guy who you could just give the ball to and say go to work.

This is a massive undertaking and I appreciate the work that goes into it. I'm not trying to be a dick because it's a lot easier to point out the flaws in someone else's list than it is to make your own but I just don't see how you justify some of the guys I know are coming being ahead of Marion and I know that you are going to rank kg ahead of some guys who were much better at being "the man" because of his all around game and I'm just curious to hear your rationale.[/QUOTE]
You could give the rock to KG down on the block. Not Marion. Nash was taking it or handing off to Amare.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]You could give the rock to KG down on the block. Not Marion. Nash was taking it or handing off to Amare.[/QUOTE]
No argument. Kg is in a different class of player than Marion though it might surprise you to learn that Marion's career % of 2pt fgs that are assisted is 68.6 and kgs is 67.2. Not exactly a huge difference.

[QUOTE=raiderfan19]So you are ranking griffin higher based on 20 games?[/quote]

Not exactly, but that was the most important stretch of his career. It suggests he may be a franchise player, something Marion never even hinted at being. That's the basis for my ranking. Sort of like Bill Walton being above Robert Parish. One was good for a lot longer, but the other was great, even if just for a short while.

[QUOTE=raiderfan19]And btw I agree that griffin this year was probablu better than Marion ever was. The thing I find interesting is what in your mind separates Marion from say Kevin Garnett other than passing. Garnett was absolutely a better player and while he was certainly much better at creating his own offense(and offense for others) he was also never a guy who you could just give the ball to and say go to work. [/quote]

I try very hard to rate players by a composite evaluation of their skills in individual areas of the game. I mean a guy like Billy Owens was a lot better overall player than say Mitch Richmond. Owens was a better passer, ball handler, on ball defender, help defender, rebounder, set better screens, all Richmond did better was shoot and score. Still I have no doubt which player had more impact. That's the KG versus Marion difference. Impact. Just look at KG's T-Wolves teams without another star player vs. Marions pre-Nash Suns with PG's like Kidd and Marbury as his sidekick and deeper rosters overall.

[QUOTE=raiderfan19]This is a massive undertaking and I appreciate the work that goes into it. I'm not trying to be a dick because it's a lot easier to point out the flaws in someone else's list than it is to make your own but I just don't see how you justify some of the guys I know are coming being ahead of Marion and I know that you are going to rank kg ahead of some guys who were much better at being "the man" because of his all around game and I'm just curious to hear your rationale.[/QUOTE]

I hope it will become more clear as the project goes on. Let me assure you I don't mind the criticisms and critiques. My list changes a lot every year, so obviously even I think I am wrong about a lot of my rankings. Once I get another 25-30 players listed, if you're up for it, make a list of the guys you'd have Marion above that I do not. That should allow us to better understand the things I value more or less than you do.

Thanks for all your contributions to all these threads. I do appreciate it greatly.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#153 Ralph Lee Sampson Jr.
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Momentary Elite
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 9 (3)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] 1A/1B on contender
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 21-11-3-1-2
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]Y[/SIZE]our typical 7’4” power forward, Sampson could run and jump like a man a foot shorter, and maybe had he been 6’8” or 6’10” instead, his career would have lasted longer. Still for three plus seasons, two alongside Hakeem Olajuwon, the NBA got a glimpse of it’s future. Athletic big men with the mentalities of forwards and the skills of a guard. Imagine KG as Ralph Sampson 2.0. After the first attempt failed, the creators a perfect basketball machine said okay, we have to be more realistic, how about a guy 7’ with guard skills & athleticism instead of 7’4”. That was Ralph, his favorite habit was to grab a rebound and start the fast break. His body, coordinated as he was, seemed not to run but rather lunge down the court, a flailing mass of limbs that was harder to slow down than Ralph realized. Sampson was a legend before he ever played an NBA game, at Virginia he spent four years literally and figuratively towering over the competition, winning three National Player of the Year Awards. He was ready for the NBA by the time the freshman year was over. From the time he finished high school, NBA teams were knocking down his door, especially the Lakers and Celtics. When Red Auerbach, sure he had finally convinced Sampson to enter the draft in 1980 (where the Celtics had the top pick) found out Sampson was returning to school he was dumbfounded; 'It defies common sense. It's ridiculous. If he were an intellectual genius and was planning on being a surgeon then I'd buy it.''

When Sampson did finally come out of College, to say he was considered a sure thing would be an understatement. The Rockets who had traded Moses Malone the previous off-season won the coin flip for the top pick. It was such a foregone conclusion that they take Sampson that even commissioner Larry O'Brien had a joke when he announced sarcastically here's a “surprise”. SI ran a piece titled “It’s Just a Matter of Time” after Sampson had a lackluster preseason in 1983, declaring he would be the NBA’s next great Big Man not if, but when. However, and quickly, as is the trend with every superstar giant who comes along, the same people who built him up, began to tear him down for not reaching their expectations. The inevitable labels, of selfish, soft, not a winner. What seems clear now, separated from the moment is that Sampsons obvious talent was in need of refining, that is all. If anything his problem early on was wanting to do too much too soon. Though he had always preferred the jump shot or the dribble drive to a traditional post game, his refusal to develop a go-to-move in the post frustrated coaches and critics alike. As he said though; "(coach Bill) Fitch says he wants me to have one shot I can depend on nine times out of 10. Well, I want to do them all. I don't want just one shot. I want to shoot outside. I want to dribble the ball up and down the floor. Some of my teammates don't think I can do it. I know Fitch hollers to them to run and get it from me. But I can do it."

The real downfall for Sampson was as obvious as his talent. His body just couldn't keep doing what no other body that size could do. Injuries wrecked havoc on his career; there was a fall in Boston Garden, March 1986. His back absorbed the blow and his right leg went numb. Sampson shook it off, but seemingly continued to feel the effects. In February of 1987 playing against Denver he slipped on a wet spot and tore ligaments in his knee. He rushed back from surgery and hurt it again in 1988 and that same year he was traded to Golden State. From there it was a quick road downhill, he was never near the same player, oft injured and by 1991 his career was over.The fall in Garden may have accelerated the process, but if anyone had bothered to look closer, there were signs that Sampson’s body and athletic ability were already trending downward before he even left Virginia. Sampson blocked 157 shots in his Freshman year of College, and never approached that total again in his collegiate days and in the NBA (in terms of per game), his 197 blocks in 82 games (2.4/gm) of his rookie season was his highest pro career total as well and lower than any collegiate per game average. You could see the joints tightening up, the stress wearing him down.

During his rookie year Sampson played to mixed reviews, the talent was obvious but the results were not there for the team yet. Winning the rookie of the year seemed more like a relief than an accomplishment and even though he averaged 21 points, 11 rebounds and 2.4 blocks per game, people wanted more. The Rockets won the coin toss for the second straight year in 1984 and this time got the rights to Akeem Olajuwon out of Houston, another center. Some wondered if Olajuwon and Sampson could play together, but Bill Fitch was confident they could, Sampson was excited to move to power forward. A move coach Fitch praised him for; from SI... "Ralph knows all five spots completely," says Fitch. The coach is well aware that it is Sampson who has adjusted his game to fit Olajuwon's, not vice versa. Olajuwon was outstanding as was Sampson who lead the team with 22 points a night and added 10 rebounds and 2 blocks. The Rockets surprised many and won 48 games third best in the West. In the playoffs the Rockets were upset by the Jazz in round one. Sampson and Olajuwon figured to be too much even for the Jazz equipped with 7’4” shot blocking king Mark Eaton. But the Rockets blew a late lead in game five, despite Eaton being injured, they were done in by poor foul shooting and a rash of turnovers. Sampson was 3-8 from the line and committed six of their 21 turnovers, 16 in the second half. Even with the game ending in defeat, and the season ending prematurely the Towers had established that though they could be beaten for now, they could be dominant and soon. The next season would see that potential fulfilled.

The Rockets made a statement right out of the gate in 1985-86. They won 9 of their first 11 games and cruised to 51 wins. They seemed to be the most likely candidate to challenge the Lakers who had a streak of four consecutive Western Conference Championships and had won the World Championship in 1985. Though the Rockets were playing great basketball, they had lost their first three battles with the Lakers, Hakeem Olajuwon had struggled guard Kareem Abdul-Jabbar who had averaged over 40 points in those contests. The Rockets made an adjustment for the fourth game, putting Sampson on Jabbar and allowing Olajuwon to roam in the lane as a shot blocker, it worked. Jabbar had just 18 points, Sampson had 19, 17 rebounds and 9 assists and the Rockets finally beat LA. That win did wonders for their confidence, after steamrolling the Kings (with Sampson posting 20/11/3/2/2) and knocking off the Nuggets, last seasons Western Conference Runner-up 4-2, it was time for Showtime. The Lakers, veterans, experienced, hammered the Rockets in game with Kareem and Magic turning in dynamic performances. In the next contest Sampson played a game for the ages. 24 points, 16 rebounds, 9 assists, 5 blocks and the Rockets stole home court advantage. Games three and four in Houston were the Olajuwon showed, the second year center scored 75 points and the Rockets exhausted the Lakers taking a three games to one lead. In the fifth game, back in Los Angeles, the Lakers seemed like they were going to hang on a make it a series again. The Lakers led by 12 after one, seven at the half. They still led through three quarters despite Akeem Olajuwon’s 17 point barrage, now just by two. But after Olajuwon was ejected for punching Mitch Kupchak with four minutes to go, the Lakers felt sure they were headed back to Houston. With the game tied at 112 and time winding down Byron Scott missed a potential game winning jump and the Rockets secured possession with a timeout and just one second on the clock. On the ensuing inbounds, Rodney McCray threw a perfect pass to Sampson at the high post and in one motion Sampson, jumped, caught the ball, twisted and released it towards the rim. It hit the front, back and side of the rim and fell in, the Rockets were in the NBA Finals...Michael Cooper did not enjoy the moment.

In the Finals the Rockets ran into a buzzsaw. The ‘86 Celtics, often considered the greatest team ever, jumped on Houston in game one at the Garden. Sampson the hero in Los Angeles with 29 points and the most important shot of his career, was held to 2 points in Boston on 1-13 shooting. Game two was another Boston rout, but Houston and Sampson showed well in game three, a Rocket win behind 24 points and 22 rebounds from Ralph. The Celtics took game four and for all intents and purposes the series with it, Sampson again played valiantly. But in game five, despite the Houston win, Sampson was again cast as the villain, and this time rightfully so after he lost his cool and exploded upon 6’1” Jerry Sichting. To make matters worse, he was mocked afterwards; Sichting said of Sampson's attack that he didn't know whether "it was a punch or a mosquito bite. My three-year-old son hits harder." The Rockets bowed out in game six at the Boston Garden. The fans were relentless against Sampson and jubilant at having won their sixteenth NBA title. Sampson, seemingly defeated scored eight points. It was the beginning of the end.
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[I](edited for space)[/I]

Being fron Houston old school cats talk about Ralph Sampson more than they do Olajuwon.

Here's a question. If Sampson and the Rockets beat the Celtics in 86 does Sampson go down as a Bill Walton type instead of a Maurice Stokes type?

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#152 Sam James Cassell
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Momentary Elite
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 15 (7)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2/#3 on borderline contenders/#5 on Title team
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 18-4-7-1 on 46/34/86
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]S[/SIZE]ome players just have a knack for making things happen when it matters most. Unquestionably Sam Cassell is that type of guy. The ultra confident point guard bookended a 15 year career with Championships while playing for eight teams and making memorable impact on six on them. Combining fierce leadership with outstanding speed and quickness, a rock solid mid-range shot, a clever post post, the ability to get hot from three and steady play-making, Cassell thrived in the biggest moment with regularity. In his own words, "I just don't get nervous, I can't explain it." Starting his career in the right place at the right time he and Kenny Smith shared point guard duties for the back-to-back World Champion Rockets in 1994 and 1995. After being traded to Phoenix in 1996 (along with Robert Horry, Chucky Brown and mark Bryant) for Charles Barkley. An Unhappy Cassell played for Phoenix, Dallas and New Jersey in 1996-97. Ending up with the Nets, Cassell got his first opportunity to be a franchise point guard and averaged 19 points and 8 assists in 1998. The Nets were a surprise team and made the playoffs but Cassell was injured and made little impact in a three game postseason sweep. After spending the lockout shortened 1999 season recovering from injuries and being dealt to Milwaukee, Cassel helped the Bucks turn their fortunes around in 2000 and 2001 culminating in the team

I still got my Cassell Rockets championship jersey.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]I still got my Cassell Rockets championship jersey.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Being fron Houston old school cats talk about Ralph Sampson more than they do Olajuwon.

Here's a question. If Sampson and the Rockets beat the Celtics in 86 does Sampson go down as a Bill Walton type instead of a Maurice Stokes type?[/QUOTE]

Glad I could send some love to Clutch City.

I don't think Sampson would have reached a Waltonesque Standard, but it certainly would have elevated him.

Beating the '86 Celtics would have had a greater impact on Hakeem. Add that to his resume and you're talking about a top six all-time guy.

The footage of those two together is some of my favorite in NBA history. Their combined size and athleticism with the energy only a man in his early twenties can possess...WOW. It was like nothing I've ever seen and nothing even approaches it today. I imagine Duncan and Garnett playing together in 1998 or Wilt and Russell in 1961. My brother mentioned the idea of pairing Kareem and McAdoo from 1974-1976, saying that, that would have secured Kareem's place as an all-time great (as in Greatest ever) put McAdoo into the NBA@50.

As it was, Houston was lucky to get two games, Boston was unbeatable that season.

I want to see where Walter Davis,Bobby Danridge, Chet Walker, end up

[QUOTE=houston]I want to see where Walter Davis,Bobby Danridge, Chet Walker, end up[/QUOTE]
Chet probably around the 110-120 mark. Dandridge and Davis around 120-135 range. My guess.

Because of your Sam Cassell story i looked up his assist numbers (total and per game) and stumbled over the name [B]Kevin Porter [/B]who won 4 assist titles in the 70s. i couldnt find him in your top 100. i know nothing about him. is he in your top 200?

[QUOTE=L.A. Jazz]Because of your Sam Cassell story i looked up his assist numbers (total and per game) and stumbled over the name [B]Kevin Porter [/B]who won 4 assist titles in the 70s. i couldnt find him in your top 100. i know nothing about him. is he in your top 200?[/QUOTE]
Porter is like Marcus Camby of PGs but not on his level. Maybe Andre Miller. Slam 500 has him at 112. Like you I don't know much about him either. He made no all star games in his career in the late 70s when the guard spot was weak. Guys like Randy Smith and World B Free were all stars.

Maybe I'm wrong about him.

[QUOTE=L.A. Jazz]Because of your Sam Cassell story i looked up his assist numbers (total and per game) and stumbled over the name [B]Kevin Porter [/B]who won 4 assist titles in the 70s. i couldnt find him in your top 100. i know nothing about him. is he in your top 200?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Porter is like Marcus Camby of PGs but not on his level. Maybe Andre Miller. Slam 500 has him at 112. Like you I don't know much about him either. He made no all star games in his career in the late 70s when the guard spot was weak. Guys like Randy Smith and World B Free were all stars.

Maybe I'm wrong about him.[/QUOTE]


I have Kevin Porter in a group between 290-320 with guys like Jumpin' Johnny Green, Don Ohl, Archie Clark, Johnny Moore, Terrell Brandon and Fast Eddie Johnson.

Porter was an old school playground point guard. The kind who truly was pass first, pass second, pass third.

He was the starting PG for the Bullets in a back court with Phil Chenier when they went to the 1975 Finals, after being swept he was traded to Detroit for Dave Bing.

He led the league in assists all four years he was healthy and played 30 mpg. He was traded to the Pistons twice and didn't workout either time, even though he did have his best statistical season playing under Dick Vitale. Once, like the Mark Jackson Indiana/Denver trades, traded at the started of the season and reacquired the next season. Jerry Green, a Detroit Sports Legend, called him a "water bug with a great sense of sharing."


He joins Norm Van Lier, Archie Clark, Mickey Johnson and Dan Roundfield on my all-Black guys I bet you thought were white guys team.

Was Jumpin Johnny Green the most athletic player of his day? I read be could touch the top of the glass.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#150 Willie M. Wise
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Momentary Elite
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 9 (5)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2 on Championship Teams and contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 20-10-3 on 48/73
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]T[/SIZE]hese next two players I have to be careful with as I

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Was Jumpin Johnny Green the most athletic player of his day? I read be could touch the top of the glass.[/QUOTE]


I think guys like Wilt and Russell, Baylor, Gus Johnson etc. were all on the same level. They called him Long John, Kid Pogo, Rubber Legs, so obviously he could leap.

How good of a leaper was he:

"I'd put him up there with Jackie Jackson, the old Globetrotter, and maybe three other guys as a rebounder. He jumped out of sight, I know Julius Erving, and Julius wasn't in his league. I remember an alumni game when Robin Roberts, the great baseball player went up for a rebound and got eye level with John's belt, that's when Robin decided to stop playing basketball."

-Julius McCoy

Also from the book Magic Moments, a history of MSU hoops...

"Green routinley touched the top of the backboard at 12'6" and once dunked a ball ten times in 15 seconds."

How different would history be had Connie Hawkins and Roger Brown entered the NBA in the early 60s?

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]How different would history be had Connie Hawkins and Roger Brown entered the NBA in the early 60s?[/QUOTE]
Excellent question, rife with possibilities and hypotheticals only a Borgesian literary genius could reasonably speculate without stacking the deck.

First, which team would they be drafted in, and how would their presence affect their hypothetical nba teams in the next 5-10 seasons?

Second, how would their presence affect other teams as a chain reaction, how they draft and shape their teams in adjustment?

:confusedshrug:

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#148 Zachary Randolph
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Borderline Alphas
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 13 (10)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] 1A/1B on playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 19-10-2-1 on 47/76
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]F[/SIZE] or a long time Z-Bo carried a bad rap. A lot of people believed he was the best player in the league that you couldn

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#146 Richard V. Guerin
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Borderline Alphas
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 13 (6)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] Best player on bad teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 22-7-6 on 42/79
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]S[/SIZE]ix time all-star, three times all-NBA, perennially among the top ten in assists and three times a top 10 scorer, including averaging just under 30 ppg in 1961-62, it took a long time but Richie Guerin was finally inducted in the Hall of Fame in 2013. A strong physical guard, ahead of his time with great hesitation and change of direction moves of the dribble, Guerin languished on the lowly Knicks for seven seasons, making the playoffs only once. Finally in 1963 he was sent to the Hawks, a contender for most of the last decade, they needed a second guard to play alongside Lenny Wilkins, replacing John Barnhill a rookie the year before who had not met expectations. In a reduced role from that of a star in his twenties, Guerin became a valuable piece for the Hawks in his thirties and finally got a regular crack at the playoffs. So impressed with Guerin

Glen Rice was one of my favorite players early in my basketball watching days. I even got NBA in The Zone because he was on the cover. I think my team would look like:

Starters
PG Anfernee Hardaway
SG Clyde Drexler
SF Grant Hill
PF Shawn Kemp
C Hakeem Olajuwon

Reserves
G Kevin Johnson
G Reggie Miller
G Latrell Sprewell
F Glen Rice
F Charles Barkley
F Larry Johnson
C Alonzo Mourning

Guerin, Yardley or Hagan. Who was better?

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Guerin, Yardley or Hagan. Who was better?[/QUOTE]

I'll take Hagan because he was so good in the playoffs so often. I'll go into more depth when he comes up on the list, but basically he's a Mark Aguirre crossed with a prime James Worthy. He could do it all offensively.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#144 Deron Williams
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Borderline Alphas
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 9 (7)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #1/#2 on solid playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 19-3-10-1 on 46/83
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]T[/SIZE]iming is everything in life. For Deron Williams he had the misfortune timing of coming out of the University of Illinois as a top prospect at the same time as Chris Paul, the highly celebrated guard from Wake Forest. Though Williams had more team success, reaching the National Championship game as a junior, the dynamic Paul was considered by most the top guard prospect. Most observers believed that Atlanta, with the second pick would take Paul, perhaps this is why Utah, with the third pick seemed locked in on taking Williams, which they did even after Atlanta surprised many by selecting Marvin Williams second. Paul slide to four and many questioned or laughed at both Atlanta and Utah, who needed point guards for passing on the sure thing. From that moment on Paul and Williams were constantly being compared and Deron would always be judged by two standards. How well he played and how well he played compared to Paul. When Williams averaged a respectable 10-5 as a rookie, the critics continued to shake their heads when Paul won rookie of the year averaging 16-9. The next season the Jazz won 51 games, ten more than the previous year and 25 more than they year before D-Will arrived. They advanced to the Western Conference Finals with Williams averaging 19-9 for the playoffs (16-9 in the regular season). Paul and the Hornets missed the playoffs again and the debate was heating up.

Williams had another excellent season in 2007-08 setting career highs for points (18.8), assists (10.5), FG% (.507) and FT% (.803). Even with Williams doing everything within reason, Paul still gained the upper-hand having his best season and being considered by many the leagues MVP. The next two seasons Williams averaged 19-11 again and the debate raged on. Though most seemed to think Paul is the better player, it was becoming very clear that Williams was in his right, a star. In 2010 he made his second all-NBA team and the Jazz went to the playoffs for a fourth straight year. For a while it almost didn

[QUOTE=Gotterdammerung]Excellent question, rife with possibilities and hypotheticals only a Borgesian literary genius could reasonably speculate without stacking the deck.

First, which team would they be drafted in, and how would their presence affect their hypothetical nba teams in the next 5-10 seasons?

Second, how would their presence affect other teams as a chain reaction, how they draft and shape their teams in adjustment?

:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

Nobody's biting?

:whatever:

ETA: this thread is thoroughly enjoyable, largely because it is quite informative about players prior to my time (1991) and each bio is detailed enough to get a feel for the player. Again, wonderful job, GOAT. :cheers:

Would u ever try and post a "scouting report" for certain players you've compiled enough data on?

I think that's the biggest thing missing anywhere: books, zines, internet, etc.

[QUOTE=Gotterdammerung]Nobody's biting?

:whatever:

ETA: this thread is thoroughly enjoyable, largely because it is quite informative about players prior to my time (1991) and each bio is detailed enough to get a feel for the player. Again, wonderful job, GOAT. :cheers:

Would u ever try and post a "scouting report" for certain players you've compiled enough data on?

I think that's the biggest thing missing anywhere: books, zines, internet, etc.[/QUOTE]
Both would have been drafted in 1964. Both being from Brooklyn would have been territorial picks. I'm not sure if a team could take more than one pick a season. Willis Reed was also drafted that season.

Brown or Hawkins. Not sure who was better in their high school days.

But it wouldn't matter as the Knicks had the first pick that season too. They didnt take R43d 1st but 8th or 1st 2nd round pick. Jim Barnes was the first pick for NYC.


C Willis Reed
PF Connie Hawkins
SF Johnny Green
SG Roger Brown
PG Whoever (Tom Gola)


With this they don't get Walt Frazier a few years later.

I followed the Paul vs Williams debate from the start. I always felt i would pick Williams because he was bigger and stronger. And he played very well in head to head against Paul. But his play the last few years was pretty bad. with all the young PGs the NBA now he is an afterthought and i think he will not bounce back.

That's a lot of work, man.


Will you edit it as the seasons come and go, and people win/lose/break some record?

[QUOTE=played0ut]That's a lot of work, man.

Will you edit it as the seasons come and go, and people win/lose/break some record?[/QUOTE]

No, but if I am still alive in three years and so is ISH I'll do a new list. My rankings change every week. As much as I know now, there is still way more I have to learn.



[QUOTE=Gotterdammerung]Would u ever try and post a "scouting report" for certain players you've compiled enough data on?

I think that's the biggest thing missing anywhere: books, zines, internet, etc.[/QUOTE]

That would be a dream project for me. I've always enjoyed scouting/tendency evaluation. However I don't believe

The problem is I don't have an adequate understanding of most players pre-1984 because of the lack of film available. I try to compile as much of a scouting report as I can into the bios of the older players, but it's most anecdotal praise, not critical evaluation. I have, as have many others here, been able to pick up on some tendencies and strengths/weaknesses of many of the highest regarded older players, but at best were looking at 3% of their body of work. I just watched a video of every shot block Anthony Davis had this year. I've now seen him block more individual shots than Russell and Chamberlain combined. To say putting together a legitimate scouting report would be a tall task is an understatement.

[QUOTE=L.A. Jazz]I followed the Paul vs Williams debate from the start. I always felt i would pick Williams because he was bigger and stronger. And he played very well in head to head against Paul. But his play the last few years was pretty bad. with all the young PGs the NBA now he is an afterthought and i think he will not bounce back.[/QUOTE]

Do you have any knowledge of the Sloan/Williams feud and how does that aspect of his career change your view, if at all?

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Do you have any knowledge of the Sloan/Williams feud and how does that aspect of his career change your view, if at all?[/QUOTE]
No, i dont. i only read this article last year:

[URL="https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/utah-owner-goes-record-night-deron-williams-drove-144019005.html"]https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/utah-owner-goes-record-night-deron-williams-drove-144019005.html[/URL]

What do you imply?
That Sloans desicion was wrong because Deron from this point on felt he could win any battle against any coach?

Great thread

Btw I thought about the Marion thing and one of the more interesting comparisons IMO is Reggie miller. I'm assuming miller will be on here at some point(though it wouldnt hurt my feelings if he wasn't) but offensively their games are more similar than you'd think. Both were 20 ppg scorers who couldn't create their own look but could get open if someone else could get them the ball. Obviously they got to those 20 ppg differently and millers shooting had a gravitational effect that Marion never had. But Marion's dive cuts had their own gravity and he was better at everything but shooting.

[QUOTE=raiderfan19]Btw I thought about the Marion thing and one of the more interesting comparisons IMO is Reggie miller. I'm assuming miller will be on here at some point(though it wouldnt hurt my feelings if he wasn't) but offensively their games are more similar than you'd think. Both were 20 ppg scorers who couldn't create their own look but could get open if someone else could get them the ball. Obviously they got to those 20 ppg differently and millers shooting had a gravitational effect that Marion never had. But Marion's dive cuts had their own gravity and he was better at everything but shooting.[/QUOTE]
You can't build a team around Marion. You Could With Miller.

on Bob Love: There was a documentary on hin similar to the Mike Ray Richardson one. Its sad that after his player career he became a dishwasher for a restaurant.