Religion aside, abortion is wrong. All babies deserve a chance to live

[QUOTE=Godzuki]tldr :facepalm[/QUOTE]

Game.Set.Match

[IMG]http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121228051736/glee/images/3/30/You_are_a_loser.gif[/IMG]

Abortions and Crime: Freakonomics Movie
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk6gOeggViw[/url]
Discuss

Levitt's Crime Research: Freakonomics Movie
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rDdMlKV2Mg[/url]
Discuss

[QUOTE=MavsSuperFan]Abortions and Crime: Freakonomics Movie
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk6gOeggViw[/url]
Discuss

Levitt's Crime Research: Freakonomics Movie
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rDdMlKV2Mg[/url]
Discuss[/QUOTE]

Its a cheap road to take. Crime can be fixed by improving peoples quality of life, not by denying them life so they have no potential to be criminals. Thats just ignoring the real issue.

[QUOTE=sweggeh]Its a cheap road to take. [B][B]Crime can be fixed by improving peoples quality of life[/B][/B], not by denying them life so they have no potential to be criminals. Thats just ignoring the real issue.[/QUOTE]
Lets be honest, that would take money that this country isnt willing to spend.

Abortion when used as a form of contraception I completely disagree with.

However if a woman had gotten pregnant from being raped I'd have a hard time telling her she's in the wrong by getting an abortion. I'm still very much on the fence regarding this issue.

[QUOTE=step_back]Abortion when used as a form of contraception I completely disagree with.

However if a woman had gotten pregnant from being raped I'd have a hard time telling her she's in the wrong by getting an abortion. I'm still very much on the fence regarding this issue.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I agree with the rape thing, it gets really dicey at that point.

[QUOTE=step_back]Abortion when used as a form of contraception I completely disagree with.

[B]However if a woman had gotten pregnant from being raped I'd have a hard time telling her she's in the wrong by getting an abortion. I'm still very much on the fence regarding this issue.[/B][/QUOTE]
Abortions to prevent the birth of a baby conceived by rape are about 1% of all abortions.

Also medically necessary abortions are less than 1% of abortions.

If you believe that abortions should only be legal for rape and to save the mothers life, you believe that 98%+ of abortions should be illegal.

[QUOTE]Even though, according to Planned Parenthood’s own statistics, less than 1% of all abortions are performed on women who were raped or were victims of incest, pro-choice activists insist that abortion must be legal for these women, even if it leads to thousands of women a year having abortions for other reasons.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=MavsSuperFan]Abortions to prevent the birth of a baby conceived by rape are about 1% of all abortions.

Also medically necessary abortions are less than 1% of abortions.

If you believe that abortions should only be legal for rape and to save the mothers life, you believe that 98%+ of abortions should be illegal.[/QUOTE]

Yes, exactly that.

[QUOTE=MavsSuperFan]Lets be honest, [B]that would take money that this country isnt willing to spend.[/B][/QUOTE]
Greed, the source of these problems.











Next.

[QUOTE=BlkMambaGOAT]Greed, the source of these problems.

Next.[/QUOTE]
I wouldnt support the level of redistribution, I believe is needed to solve the poverty problem in America.

I want tax rates at the clinton levels, a full repeal of the bush tax cuts. That wouldnt be enough to eliminate poverty.

i dont think societies that tax at 50% of income or higher are fair societies. (nominal tax rates are meaningless, I am talking about actual effective tax rates)
Also that would hurt the economy in the long run

[QUOTE=sweggeh]Yes, exactly that.[/QUOTE]
Good luck repealing roe v. wade

[QUOTE=MavsSuperFan]Good luck repealing roe v. wade[/QUOTE]

I told you that there are other ways of cleaning up crime than killing kids. The two are mutually exclusive.

[QUOTE=MavsSuperFan]I wouldnt support the level of redistribution, I believe is needed to solve the poverty problem in America.

I want tax rates at the clinton levels, a full repeal of the bush tax cuts. That wouldnt be enough to eliminate poverty.

i dont think societies that tax at 50% of income or higher are fair societies. (nominal tax rates are meaningless, I am talking about actual effective tax rates)
Also that would hurt the economy in the long run[/QUOTE]
Ideally, they should cap the networth of every person to about $20 million then any money they have above $20 million is distributed to the poorest people in the country.

But that ain't happening since people want to make it rain 24/7. Any person that can't live a happy life with 20 million has a fvcking problem:facepalm

*Taxes will taken into consideration later.

[QUOTE=MavsSuperFan]Abortions to prevent the birth of a baby conceived by rape are about 1% of all abortions.

Also medically necessary abortions are less than 1% of abortions.

If you believe that abortions should only be legal for rape and to save the mothers life, you believe that 98%+ of abortions should be illegal.[/QUOTE]

Then I disagree with 98% of abortions. Making it illegal to have an abortion if it's not from rape or medically necessary changes my attitude. I don't think abortions should be illegal. I like the idea of people being able to make decisions for themselves without the government stepping in.

I think we need to have a better approach to sex education out of wed lock. Contraception is still a taboo among many families.

[QUOTE=BlkMambaGOAT]Ideally, they should cap the networth of every person to about $20 million then any money they have above $10 million is distributed to the poorest people in the country.

But that ain't happening since people want to make it rain 24/7. Any person that can't live a happy life with 20 million has a fvcking problem:facepalm[/QUOTE]

Nah I dont agree with that, that would be terrible. You could always run into some crazy debt and need that money that you worked hard for. Plus 20m isnt enough for some lifestyles.

[QUOTE=step_back]Abortion when used as a form of contraception I completely disagree with.
[/QUOTE]
Literally nobody does this. Nobody.

[QUOTE=Quizno]if aborting a fetus/embryo is morally wrong based on the logic of denying life to a potential human being, then how is *********ion not morally wrong as well? if you *********e then those sperm cells are killed, and the sperm is one half of the constitution of an embryo. those are potential lives that you are killing by *********ing. how can you defend the morality of *********ion while attacking abortion?

hell, let's take it a step further. a woman should also have a moral obligation to get pregnant before ovulating because every egg that doesn't get fertilized is a waste of potential life. ladies should be making more of an effort to get pregnant, if anything, because it's morally wrong to deny life to a potential human being[/QUOTE]
Because masturb[COLOR="Black"]a[/COLOR]ting isn't the joining of a woman and man's DNA (conception). This is how I feel about it personally. I'm fine with people trying to prevent conception, whether through condoms, or birth control, or mastur[COLOR="Black"]b[/COLOR]ation, but I pretty much disagree with people trying to erase conception after it's happened.

[QUOTE=Droid101]Literally nobody does this. Nobody.[/QUOTE]
Some would argue the morning after pill does this. You get pregnant or you're body is in the process of it, and you take the bill to abort the cycle of you getting pregnant.

[QUOTE=step_back]I don't believe it should be used as a form of contraception or as a way of dealing with negligence. Even though the child is unborn it's still a living growing person, in my eyes at least.

That being said a lot of abortions could be avoided all together if we had a 21st century approach to sex education and taught kids how to go about having sex safely and responsibly using condoms. We're still on this attitude of preventing it by advising people to wait until they're married. That didn't work for my generation, it didn't work for my parents generation and it certainly won't work for any future generations. You'll never stop people from having sex but you can make sure they don't have to deal with going through an abortion by preventing it in the first place.

I don't think abortions should be illegal because even though 98% of abortions I don't agree with or like, I still think it should be someones right to choose and not that of the government.[/QUOTE]


you can't really believe what you're saying, right? Has sex education ever prevented people from having sex without condoms? like people don't know they can get a girl pregnant without a rubber? Its like extremely naive parent stuff, cmon you HAVE to be more practical than that....they do it because it feels a lot better without one or its spur of the moment heat.

and the thing is you'd have to create a near 100% non accidental pregnancy deterrence, otherwise its a issue that will have to be addressed.

i always laffed during sex ed classes in middle school, nobody took them seriously, in fact everyone would just laff throughout half the class at stuff the teacher was pointing out. its really where adults can be extremely naive and wasteful with money expenditures. if there are stats that support it worked, i would say it came from something else....

[QUOTE=Droid101]Literally nobody does this. Nobody.[/QUOTE]

People most certainly do have unprotected sex and get an abortion if they fall pregnant as a way of treating an unwanted pregnancy.

I'm guessing this is more about the semantics of what I said.

[QUOTE=Godzuki]you can't really believe what you're saying, right? Has sex education ever prevented people from having sex without condoms? like people don't know they can get a girl pregnant without a rubber? Its like extremely naive parent stuff, cmon you HAVE to be more practical than that....they do it because it feels a lot better without one or its spur of the moment heat.

and the thing is you'd have to create a near 100% non accidental pregnancy deterrence, otherwise its a issue that will have to be addressed.

i always laffed during sex ed classes in middle school, nobody took them seriously, in fact everyone would just laff throughout half the class at stuff the teacher was pointing out. its really where adults can be extremely naive and wasteful with money expenditures. if there are stats that support it worked, i would say it came from something else....[/QUOTE]

Why would I not believe what I said?

I just said sex education needs to enter the 21st century because right now it's not working. :facepalm

[QUOTE=step_back]Why would I not believe what I said?

I just said sex education needs to enter the 21st century because right now it's not working. :facepalm[/QUOTE]


so you really believe more education that 'putting a dikk in a vj can make babies' classes in school will stop unwanted pregnancies?

this is where i have major issues with wasted tax money expenditures. I just feel those people who push that are very out of touch older generational people.

I do think giving out free condoms helps but won't solve the issue. nothing will. most people act and think later, especially in the heat of passion.

[QUOTE=step_back]People most certainly do have unprotected sex and get an abortion if they fall pregnant as a way of treating an unwanted pregnancy.

I'm guessing this is more about the semantics of what I said.[/QUOTE]
Technically abortion isn't contraception. The definition of contraception is to deliberately prevent pregnancy. If you abort while pregnant you were already pregnant, therefore you're not preventing pregnancy since it's already occurred.

But I still get what you're saying. People use abortion casually as a anti-birth method.

I hate when people attach the word selfish to those who support abortion.

The way I see it, way too many people have kids for selfish reasons. Whether it's cause they are lonely or feel like they are losing purpose in life, or just depressed. Having a kid and being a parent is an interesting idea. A life that looks up to you and loves you unconditionally. People ignore the reality because they like the idea of having kids.

Why do you think poor people have so many kids? It gives them purpose...something to look forward to in their otherwise shitty lives.

That, to me, is selfish. Making a decision that you are not ready to care for another life is not selfish.

So, If a woman gets raped and gets pregnant, she should deliver the baby because all babies deserve a chance to live?

Its funny that people are so concerned about unborn babies yet they dont give a shit about that baby once it is actually born. For example, the amount of young children that die to preventable waterborne illnesses in third world countries every year absolutely dwarfs the amount of abortions worldwide, yet I have never seen a single post around here talking about how important it is to increase access to clean drinking water in third world countries.

[QUOTE=Meticode]Technically abortion isn't contraception. The definition of contraception is to deliberately prevent pregnancy. If you abort while pregnant you were already pregnant, therefore you're not preventing pregnancy since it's already occurred.

But I still get what you're saying. People use abortion casually as a anti-birth method.[/QUOTE]

That's why I said the semantics of what I said. Yes technically it's not contraception and I didn't use the term correctly, but I was trying to make a point that abortion does have a nonchalant attitude and is used as somewhat of an extension of the morning after pill.

Godzuki I made it perfectly clear in my post that sex education needs to enter the 21st century. Why contraception is used and how it should be implemented. Kids are going to have sex, they should know and feel confident in asking and dealing with it than the current "Wait until you're married" which generally is the convenient answer.

[QUOTE=Nanners]Its funny that people are so concerned about unborn babies yet they dont give a shit about that baby once it is actually born. For example, the amount of young children that die to preventable waterborne illnesses in third world countries every year absolutely dwarfs the amount of abortions worldwide, yet I have never seen a single post around here talking about how important it is to increase access to clean drinking water in third world countries.[/QUOTE]

What's even more funny are the ones who champion adoption as an alternative to abortion but have never at least considered adopting a child as an alternative to having their own.

[QUOTE=Meticode]Some would argue the morning after pill does this. You get pregnant or you're body is in the process of it, and you take the bill to abort the cycle of you getting pregnant.[/QUOTE]
Some would be incorrect. The Morning after pill prevents the egg from implanting on the uterine wall. There is no embryo to abort yet.

[QUOTE=Meticode]Some would argue the morning after pill does this. You get pregnant or you're body is in the process of it, and you take the bill to abort the cycle of you getting pregnant.[/QUOTE]
Mind giving me a link to this.

[QUOTE=navy]Mind giving me a link to this.[/QUOTE]
Here is how Plan-B works:

[url]http://www.webmd.com/women/guide/plan-b[/url]

I generally can't take most anti abortion people seriously because they typically refuse to address the following issues:

A. You can say that people shouldn't have sex unless they're willing to take care of a child all you want to but the urge to procreate is THE strongest urge in all lifeforms. As such, human beings will always do it, whether you like it or not. However, being that human beings have a unique societal structure when compared to other high life forms, they don't always want/ or are able to handle the results.

Many children are born into abusive environments where they are resented because the mother didn't really want the child, didn't have the ability to take care of it, etc. This leads to all sorts of societal problems.

Because you don't LIKE that people will have sex, and unwanted pregnancies will spawn from it doesn't change the fact that they will happen. You're basically trying to stop nature. While I don't AGREE with people recklessly having sex, I have to accept that it will always be the case as long as there are human beings, and we have to deal with those results. And sometimes, that is the unpleasant issue of abortion.

B. Making abortion illegal will only lead to back alley abortions, and you can also bet that those with the means will go to other places where abortion is legal so that their 15 year olds' life isn't ruined. So basically, it will become a situation where those who can afford it will be able to, and the poor will not. Basically you will have women killed from botched procedures, or even worse trying to perform them themselves, while those with the financial ability will get them anyway.

C. If you're so concerned about these unborn, unwanted babies, why don't YOU adopt some of them? So many hypocrites are soooo concerned about the baby being born but then want to cut things like food stamps, welfare programs, etc. that help to take care of the children born to parents that can't afford them. If you really feel all kids should be born, then you should really support a society that pays for the complete upkeep of the child until adulthood. And given all of the unfit mothers that will have kids, should support adopting some yourself as they will end up in the foster system, orphanges, etc.

D. There is a separation of church and state. That means if you feel your religion feels it's "murder" or whatever, that's fine. Just don't impose your beliefs on the rest of us who don't as your religious beliefs should have nothing to do with how laws are crafted.

E. The earth already has 7 billion people! Many scientists believe that if we continue to overpopulate the earth, it will have dire consequences in the future as resources become more and more scarce. Income inequality worldwide is already a major issue. Now you want to bring millions more children into it?

[QUOTE=Knoe Itawl]I generally can't take most anti abortion people seriously because they typically refuse to address the following issues:

A. You can say that people shouldn't have sex unless they're willing to take care of a child all you want to but the urge to procreate is THE strongest urge in all lifeforms. As such, human beings will always do it, whether you like it or not. However, being that human beings have a unique societal structure when compared to other high life forms, they don't always want/ or are able to handle the results.

Many children are born into abusive environments where they are resented because the mother didn't really want the child, didn't have the ability to take care of it, etc. This leads to all sorts of societal problems.

Because you don't LIKE that people will have sex, and unwanted pregnancies will spawn from it doesn't change the fact that they will happen. You're basically trying to stop nature. While I don't AGREE with people recklessly having sex, I have to accept that it will always be the case as long as there are human beings, and we have to deal with those results. And sometimes, that is the unpleasant issue of abortion.

B. Making abortion illegal will only lead to back alley abortions, and you can also bet that those with the means will go to other places where abortion is legal so that their 15 year olds' life isn't ruined. So basically, it will become a situation where those who can afford it will be able to, and the poor will not. Basically you will have women killed from botched procedures, or even worse trying to perform them themselves, while those with the financial ability will get them anyway.

C. If you're so concerned about these unborn, unwanted babies, why don't YOU adopt some of them? So many hypocrites are soooo concerned about the baby being born but then want to cut things like food stamps, welfare programs, etc. that help to take care of the children born to parents that can't afford them. If you really feel all kids should be born, then you should really support a society that pays for the complete upkeep of the child until adulthood. And given all of the unfit mothers that will have kids, should support adopting some yourself as they will end up in the foster system, orphanges, etc.

D. There is a separation of church and state. That means if you feel your religion feels it's "murder" or whatever, that's fine. Just don't impose your beliefs on the rest of us who don't as your religious beliefs should have nothing to do with how laws are crafted.

E. The earth already has 7 billion people! Many scientists believe that if we continue to overpopulate the earth, it will have dire consequences in the future as resources become more and more scarce. Income inequality worldwide is already a major issue. Now you want to bring millions more children into it?[/QUOTE]

Do any of these points refute that abortion is ****ed up? Absolutely not.

Justify it any bullshit way you want (not really alive, no mind, overpopulation etc.) but abortion is the killing of life. It's absolutely ****ed up. I agree with Meticode, sweggeh and step back. I understand that more money from the government will be used to support these children. Does this mean I want my taxes to be increased to take care of it? No. It just means I want the money that is being wasted and spent on expensive wars by the current and past administrations to be used in a more constructive manner.

[QUOTE=Balla_Status]Do any of these points refute that abortion is ****ed up? Absolutely not.

Justify it any bullshit way you want (not really alive, no mind, overpopulation etc.) but abortion is the killing of life. It's absolutely ****ed up. I agree with Meticode, sweggeh and step back. I understand that more money from the government will be used to support these children. Does this mean I want my taxes to be increased to take care of it? No. It just means I want the money that is being wasted and spent on expensive wars by the current and past administrations to be used in a more constructive manner.[/QUOTE]


so you think that paying the government to raise children without any parent over sighting is the solution to the cure?

[QUOTE=Balla_Status]Do any of these points refute that abortion is ****ed up? Absolutely not.

Justify it any bullshit way you want (not really alive, no mind, overpopulation etc.) but abortion is the killing of life. It's absolutely ****ed up. I agree with Meticode, sweggeh and step back. I understand that more money from the government will be used to support these children. Does this mean I want my taxes to be increased to take care of it? No. It just means I want the money that is being wasted and spent on expensive wars by the current and past administrations to be used in a more constructive manner.[/QUOTE]

And like most anti-abortion crusaders you don't bother to address the very relevant points I brought up and fall back on the "I think it's wrong!" mantra like a child. That's why I said I can't take you seriously. You dont want to get into the nitty gritty of the issue and prefer instead to fall back on tired emotional protestations.

Also, nowhere did I ever say abortion wasn't "f*cked up". You types also have a habit of suggesting that because someone is pro choice that they don't understand that it is very unfortunate situation that no one should have to find themselves in. We just realize it's more complex than yelling that you think it's wrong and murder over and over again.

Finally, you said I had "bullshyt justifications" but took no time to explain WHY they are bullshyt which makes your claim meaningless.

[QUOTE=Knoe Itawl]And like most anti-abortion crusaders you don't bother to address the very relevant points I brought up and fall back on the "I think it's wrong!" mantra like a child. That's why I said I can't take you seriously. You dont want to get into the nitty gritty of the issue and prefer instead to fall back on tired emotional protestations.

Also, nowhere did I ever say abortion wasn't "f*cked up". You types also have a habit of suggesting that because someone is pro choice that they don't understand that it is very unfortunate situation that no one should have to find themselves in. We just realize it's more complex than yelling that you think it's wrong and murder over and over again.

Finally, you said I had "bullshyt justifications" but took no time to explain WHY they are bullshyt which makes your claim meaningless.[/QUOTE]



I think they should prohibit people from getting pregnant just so they can practice abortion.

but I'm probably in the rare

only times abortion should be allowed is when the sex was not by choice, and the birth of the baby could cause either the mother or the baby to die. All other instances should be banned.

[QUOTE=riseagainst]only times abortion should be allowed is when the sex was not by choice, and the birth of the baby could cause either the mother or the baby to die. All other instances should be banned.[/QUOTE]

Yep. I agree 100%. Hoes out here taking weekly trips to the abortion clinic like its the salon and fools in this thread are defending it.

I wonder how many times they mention abortion in the Bible.

[QUOTE=Droid101]I wonder how many times they mention abortion in the Bible.[/QUOTE]

This is nothing to do with religion, read the thread title.