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Jeez, its hilarious how many pansies are on this board. Oh my god, during an 82 game season in a physical sport a punch was thrown in practice :eek: THROW THAT HOOLIGAN IN JAIL CAUSE STUFF LIKE THAT NEVER HAPPENS!!!! WE NEED MORE VAGIN*S IN THE NBA :oldlol:
[QUOTE=Soundwave]Jordan was 40 years old in Washington on a crap team playing because he wanted to play while he still had something left in his legs. You're going to tell me with a straight face that Pippen would've led that team anywhere in the same situation? Or any NBA player? I'm sorry even with a 40-year-old Bill Russell that team wasn't doing sh*t.
Swap Pippen with a 33 year old Jordan with those Rockets and he probably leads them to a title. Put a 34 year old Jordan on that Blazers team and they also probably win the championship.
Why don't I use Google to put together a MJ thread? Because I don't need to. I don't have an agenda that needs to be pushed so desperately that I'd spend an hour on Google to make a thread with cherry picked quotes in it as if its a school project or something.[/QUOTE]
Again. This isnt a Jordan vs Pippen thing. No one has ever implied that Pippen was as good as Jordan.
[QUOTE=Soundwave]Jordan was 40 years old in Washington on a crap team playing because he wanted to play while he still had something left in his legs. You're going to tell me with a straight face that Pippen would've led that team anywhere in the same situation? Or any NBA player? I'm sorry even with a 40-year-old Bill Russell that team wasn't doing sh*t. [/QUOTE]
This post illustrates how you don't understand what is being discussed. We are talking about leadership skills, not basketball skills. He had a chance to be a locker room and team leader--and his tactics led to teammates tuning him out.
[QUOTE]He has practically ruined [reserve forward] Rodney McCray for us.' When the two players are on opposite teams in scrimmages, the source says, "[ Jordan] is in Rodney's face, screaming, 'You're a loser! You've always been a loser!' Rodney can hardly put up a jumper now.’[/QUOTE]
That isn't a good thing. A good leader would have recognized his strengths and weaknesses and worked to promote the former and minimize the latter--not destroy the guy's confidence. McCray was a 9 year starter before coming to Chicago. He was barely even used in the playoffs (0.3 ppg and 5.6 mpg)--and was out of the NBA after 93'--thanks in part to being destroyed. How does that help the team? He did the same thing with Kwame Brown and others.
[QUOTE]But Jordan absolutely needed Pippen to temper his edge with the right amount of coaxing and personable style. Jordan's harsh leadership style generally isn't very effective, tbh.
[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Right on both counts.
[QUOTE]Roundball_Rock has been working overtime flooding ISH with anti-MJ threads lately.[/QUOTE]
Jordan mythologists will continue to get called out. :pimp:
[QUOTE=97 bulls]You want to name instances in which a player actually took himself out of a game? Lebron James just did it with 8 minutes to go in the NBA Finals. The Pistons left with the court early in 91.[/QUOTE]
Stop it :oldlol:
Pulling yourself out due to injury (or even heat exhaustion) and not shaking hands after a game is over is nowhere remotely the same as a guy sitting out the final seconds of a pivotal, close basketball game solely because his feelings were hurt because the coach (rightfully) wanted this guy to take the final shot:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOMzdxynChs[/url]
[url]http://youtu.be/MjS-aKBlBXU?t=4m41s[/url]
Phil probably figured Scottie would have another migraine if the play was drawn up for him, instead he had the worst case of PMS in recorded History.
Dat Leadership.
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]This post illustrates how you don't understand what is being discussed. We are talking about leadership skills, not basketball skills. He had a chance to be a locker room and team leader--and his tactics led to teammates tuning him out.
That isn't a good thing. A good leader would have recognized his strengths and weaknesses and worked to promote the former and minimize the latter--not destroy the guy's confidence. McCray was a starter before coming to Chicago. He was barely even used in the playoffs (0.3 ppg and 5.6 mpg) thanks to being destroyed. How does that help the team? He did the same thing with Kwame Brown and others.
Exactly. Right on both counts.
Jordan mythologists will continue to get called out. :pimp:[/QUOTE]
No one gives a sh*t about what a 40-year-old says. You really think the Bulls in 04 were really giving two poops about what a washed up Pippen was telling them? He might as well been the team mascot.
Leadership doesn't mean anything if you can't back up your words with impact on the floor, no one respects a leader that just talks.
Maybe Kwame Brown was just a bust? Is that ever a possibility? We're talking about the same guy who told Kobe Bryant to NOT pass him the ball in a time out.
If you can't handle being called a p*ssy on a basketball court, odds are you are not going to last long in the NBA. Other players will call you far worse.
And stop with the Jordan "mythologists" bullsh*t. His career doesn't need to be mythologized, he was simply that good. Get over it.
[QUOTE]It's absolutely true and psychological in nature. (Received 'some' aspects of MJ's personality anyway). Emotions are infectious-- ESPECIALLY from charismatic people. Jordan's intensity and focus definitely affected and rubbed off his entire team.[/QUOTE]
It's true that leaders work ethics and confidence tend to rub off on the ones he leading, but not his personality.
Jordan got respect because he set a high bar and then exceeded that bar himself.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]It's true that leaders work ethics and confidence tend to rub off on the ones he leading, but not his personality.
Jordan got respect because he set a high bar and then exceeded that bar himself.[/QUOTE]
Thank you. Finally some sanity at least from one of you two.
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
That isn't a good thing. A good leader would have recognized his strengths and weaknesses and worked to promote the former and minimize the latter--not destroy the guy's confidence. He did the same thing with Kwame Brown and others.
[/QUOTE]
That's partly my point. He wasn't a 'good' leader in the sense that he wasn't able to adapt his leadership to accommodate everyone's unique personality and ego. (Scottie helped with that).
But his leadership is particularly effective and good when he's leading people with certain traits. Give him good people and he'll make them great.
But ideally, the 'perfect' leaders would be Magic/Bird.
[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Stop it :oldlol:
Pulling yourself out due to injury (or even heat exhaustion) and not shaking hands after a game is over is nowhere remotely the same as a guy sitting out the final seconds of a pivotal, close basketball game solely because his feelings were hurt because the coach (rightfully) wanted this guy to take the final shot:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOMzdxynChs[/url]
[url]http://youtu.be/MjS-aKBlBXU?t=4m41s[/url]
Phil probably figured Scottie would have another migraine if the play was drawn up for him, instead he had the worst case of PMS in recorded History.
Dat Leadership.[/QUOTE]
Lol its all bad sportsmanship. James wasnt injured when he took himself out in game five. He quit on his team. Isnt that what youre berating Pippen for?
Who knows what could've happened? Tracy Mcgrady scored 11 pts in just over a minute. The same with Reggie Miller.
round ball lecock using team mates and off the court personality as arguments against jordan. :oldlol: :lol :roll:
stop trolling son! :facepalm
[QUOTE=mehyaM24]jordan was like vegeta-raw talent, skill, ruthlessness
pippen was goku-innate leadership, no weaknesses
phil had more trust in pippen because he was the steady player of the two. while jordan scored a lot of points and made his defender pay, scottie took the bulls offense by the horns and made opposing TEAM DEFENSES (and offenses) pay.[/QUOTE]
MJ has more career triple doubles than Pippen, averaged far more points, and shot better from the field and the line. He also averaged more steals than Pippen, and more assists. Pip and Jordan shot the same from 3 and averaged the same blocks. The only thing he (Pippen) did better was rebound. Sorry, but Jordan was demonstrably better, and easily so. Pippen was great, but don't get carried away, Jordan is a GOAT-caliber player.
[QUOTE]Leadership doesn't mean anything if you can't back up your words with impact on the floor, no one respects a leader that just talks. [/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m19vmac8vq1qcmnsoo1_400.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE][B][U]Derek Fisher is a natural-born leader[/U][/B]
Published: June 10, 2014 7:32 PM[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Fisher has zero coaching experience. What he does have, say those who know him like his new boss Knicks president Phil Jackson, is [B]the ability to figure out what needs to be done and then persuade others to do it.
"Derek was one of those players who's unique in his ability to speak to the players both in their spirit and hearts and resonate with them as to what the purpose was and what we were attempting to do," said Jackson, who had Fisher on all five of his championship teams with the Lakers.[/B]
In Los Angeles, it was often said that [B]Jackson leaned heavily on Fisher to be the bridge between Kobe Bryant and the rest of the planet.[/B] In New York, Jackson will lean on Fisher to be the bridge between his not-so-easy-to-learn triangle offense and a veteran roster that might balk at making major changes and sacrifices to their game.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Essentially, [B]he was the voice of that team’s inner spirit, and as Jackson put it yesterday, he “always (filled) the vacuum of leadership.[/B] It was the ability of Derek to speak the truth about (the) sense of the group.[B] The coach can’t always do that. He relies on his leaders to do that.[/B] And he (subjugated) his own role to help the team form.”[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/dalessandro_in_derek_fisher_the_knicks_have_a_natural_leader_but_they_still_lack_players.html[/url]
[QUOTE]Derek Fisher's absence leaves leadership void
March 21, 2012|By Mark Medina[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Derek Fisher wouldn't have solved the Lakers' on-court execution in their 107-104 loss Tuesday to the Houston Rockets. But he would've been there in the locker room to calm everyone down.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Fisher contributed to those problems with his inconsistent shooting and slow reaction on defense. [B]But his frequent meetings emphasizing the need to get over the frustration with the roster uncertainty and the coaching staff prevented a big problem from getting worse.[/B]
"That's one of the many things he did for his team," Brown said of Fisher's leadership. "[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
[B]Bryant still assumes his co-captain position and leads through his talent and work ethic. But he doesn't have the personality and patience to assuage his teammates' frustration level. [/B]Pau [B]Gasol has assumed the co-captain role, but he always defers to Bryant[/B] and doesn't have the same willingness to challenge Bryant as Fisher did. [/QUOTE]
[url]http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/21/sports/la-sp-ln-la-derek-fisher-leadership-20120320[/url]
[QUOTE]“They had come together as rookies and trusted each other implicitly. Derek is more patient than Kobe and more balanced in his approach.[B] While Kobe informed the team with his drive to win, Fish had a gift for inspiring players with his words keeping them grounded and focused.”[/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]In the book Jackson quoted Lakers’ forward [B]Luke Walton on Fisher: “Every time Derek gave a speech, I felt there should be music playing in the background like one of those epic sports movies.’’[/B][/QUOTE]
[url]http://nypost.com/2014/05/29/phil-is-a-fan-of-fishers-leadership-style/[/url]
Fisher is a career role player who barely played later in his career but was a great leader. The Kobe-Fisher dynamic resembles Jordan-Pippen in many ways.
[QUOTE=LeBird]I like these stories too, they really further your appreciation for the kind of man he was as a teammate. Dude laid it all out there for his team and teammates. He basically transformed himself into the player his team needed him to be. Who knows if we ever saw the true Scottie Pippen.[/QUOTE]
Jordan stans are too far up MJ's ass to appreciate the level of excellence that MJ was blessed to have on his team. Pippen being great shouldn't diminish MJ at all. These losers don't love basketball though. Them hoes love players instead.
What is this bullshit about MJ not being a leader and using the Wizards stint as an example.
THE biggest objective in a sport is to WIN.
It is a leader's job to lead a team to victory aka WINS.
Who cares if the player is liked. What matters is results. Anybody that says otherwise has never been in a leadership role.
MJ as a Wiz showed his leadership by earning them wins. He pushed them in practice, and was their leader during the games.
MJ led them to 19 more wins than the previous season. The Wiz had a legit shot at making the playoffs if MJ didn't get injured.
Rip credited MJ in his development as a player as well. He improved his off the ball game, which is what he became known for. So he made Kwame cry... big deal. So he wasn't liked... big deal, they won more than their previous season.
Shit... wanna talk about a leader?
How about making a chump like Pippen into a hall of fame player.
If that's not leadership I don't know what is.
[QUOTE=Mr Exlax]Jordan stans are too far up MJ's ass to appreciate the level of excellence that MJ was blessed to have on his team. Pippen being great shouldn't diminish MJ at all. These losers don't love basketball though. Them hoes love players instead.[/QUOTE]
It is hilarious how MJ stans repeatedly opine (negatively) on Pippen's leadership yet when someone puts forward hard evidence in favor of Pippen in this regard--after years of attacks from MJ stans--they throw a collective temper tantrum and call it unjust, trolling. They want to police people's thoughts and shut down any views that don't align with the mythology they promote.
Note that no one disputed what Jackson said in the OP. The closest you had was one guy arguing MJ had superior impact as a leader. No one is disputing that Pippen was indeed a team leader--even if they are irate at that fact. :oldlol:
I'll be honest Pippen while a very good all-around player I don't think is like one of the greatest leaders in pro sports of some sh*t like this thread makes it out be.
Jordan was always by a large margin the best player on the Bulls and the Bulls certainly fed off his confidence.
In 94 Pip's refusal to go into game 3 and force the Bulls to waste an extra time out so he could yell at Phil Jackson and then not even be on the floor to be a decoy with the season one the line is one of the most profoundly selfish moments in a basketball game that I can remember.
That image of Bill Cartwright on the bench yelling at the top of his lungs at Pippen to get off the bench who's staring off into space game isn't an easy one to forget.
In Houston he bickered with Barkley and he wasn't able to get tailor his game to Hakeem Olajuwon, let alone lead them anywhere (aside from a first round exit). For a guy who could "do anything and fit into any situation", that sure wasn't evident this season.
He did OK in Blazer land, but you never really got the sense that was a great "team", just a bunch of talented players with no sure go-to guy. Sure enough they melted down in game 7 2000 and had no real "go to" leader to stand up and stem the tide.
Scottie was a great no.2 option and an OK no.1 guy. He brought a lot of intangibles to the table and was a nice guy to teammates, playing the role of good cop, to Jordan's bad cop. Tremendous defender. It was a very effective combination.
Once you're getting into "he was better than Bird/Magic" territory and one of the greatest leaders to play etc. etc. etc., then you've gone full retard.
Are we really still talking about this D-bag?
In addition to quitting on his team and not regretting it, here's another beaut where he ripped into one ex-teammate (Barkley) and threw another under the bus (Jordan) in one fell swoop. Yeah, some leader.
[url]http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=8-ugxfIYANA[/url]
.
[QUOTE=Soundwave]I'll be honest Pippen while a very good all-around player I don't think is like one of the greatest leaders in pro sports of some sh*t like this thread makes it out be.
Second Scottie never really exhibited incredible leadership in away from Jordan.
[/QUOTE]
That is refuted by his coaches, numerous teammates, both in Chicago and Portland and journalists close to the situation, i.e. Charley Rosen and Sam Smith. Yet we have Jordan stans saying he sucked as a leader--just because that is what they want to believe.
Hey DatAsh, Pippen continues to get ripped by MJ stans. Where are you to lecture them?
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]It is hilarious how MJ stans repeatedly opine (negatively) on Pippen's leadership yet when someone puts forward hard evidence in favor of Pippen in this regard--after years of attacks from MJ stans--they throw a collective temper tantrum and call it unjust, trolling. They want to police people's thoughts and shut down any views that don't align with the mythology they promote.
Note that no one disputed what Jackson said in the OP. The closest you had was one guy arguing MJ had superior impact as a leader. No one is disputing that Pippen was indeed a team leader--even if they are irate at that fact. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Nobody is saying that Pip wasn't 'a' leader.
But you make it appear as tho he was THE leader.
If you didn't try to so hard to shove your agenda into people's mouths, maybe it would appear as just that: Pip was 'a' leader.
You post so much shit that any legit message gets lost and you end up looking like a a delusional Pip stan/Mj hater. As tho you resented MJ and are mad that Pip is remembered as a 'sidekick' (which is exactly what he was).
YOU cause Pip to get overrated.
YOU cause people to troll.
We all accept and respect Pip for what he did. Everybody agrees that he's a great player and one of the best sidekicks/all around players ever. But you go the full retard route repeatedly.
Yeah he's been praised at being 'a' leader.
But so has MJ.
point being? :confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]That is refuted by his coaches, numerous teammates, both in Chicago and Portland and journalists close to the situation, i.e. Charley Rosen and Sam Smith. Yet we have Jordan stans saying he sucked as a leader--just because that is what they want to believe.
Hey DatAsh, Pippen continues to get ripped by MJ stans. Where are you to lecture them?[/QUOTE]
Based on what I saw with my own two eyes, I was not that impressed with his ability to lead in Houston or Portland.
I mean the Blazers were a good team, but they always came off like a five headed hydra monster to me, no real leader, just a bunch of good players kinda all doing their own thing. It's actually kind of predictable they would melt down the way they did. You need to have a singular guy in a situation like that who will stand up and rally his team, not just with words, but with a key basket to stem the tide.
Scottie couldn't do that for the Blazers.
Don't get it twisted either, I give Pip full marks for being a great no.2 option on the Bulls and having a very good season in 94 (minus that egregious moment of selfishness).
But one of the greatest leaders to ever play? Nah man. I don't see it. If he was, the Blazers would be champs in 2000 and the Rockets should've at least tasted the WCF.
Refusing to go into a game because the play isn't drawn up for you is about the lowest thing you can do as a basketball "star" too. It doesn't get much lower than that.
It's not easy being the number 1 guy, in less than a year of it, Pippen cracked under the pressure of it, it's not really the role he was cut out to be put in.
[QUOTE=Soundwave]Based on what I saw with my own two eyes, I was not that impressed with his ability to lead in Houston or Portland.
I mean the Blazers were a good team, but they always came off like a five headed hydra monster to me, no real leader, just a bunch of good players kinda all doing their own thing. It's actually kind of predictable they would melt down the way they did. You need to have a singular guy in a situation like that who will stand up and rally his team, not just with words, but with a key basket to stem the tide.
Scottie couldn't do that for the Blazers.
Don't get it twisted either, I give Pip full marks for being a great no.2 option on the Bulls and having a very good season in 94 (minus that egregious moment of selfishness).
But one of the greatest leaders to ever play? Nah man. I don't see it. If he was, the Blazers would be champs in 2000 and the Rockets should've at least tasted the WCF.[/QUOTE]
Part of a leadership role is to keep shit together and from keeping a bad situation from happening. Anybody can be a leader when things are all right. A TRUE leader steps in when shit goes south. A TRUE leader prevents shit from getting to that point.
The Blazers had great talent.
But lacked leadership to corral them.
The Rockets didn't have an identity. That's due to poor leadership.
What happened with the Bulls in the mythical 94 season is, MJ had set the table. All Pip had to do was follow it and keep things steady. But we all know what happened when shit got real.
[QUOTE]Based on what I saw with my own two eyes, I was not that impressed with his ability to lead in Houston or Portland. [/QUOTE]
Yeah, but you weren't in the huddle. You weren't in the locker room. You weren't at the practices. You simply don't want to believe he was and are reaching a conclusion based on faith. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. To me there simply is too much evidence in the other direction to reach any conclusion but that Pippen was a great team leader.
What happens internally is often not known. Mitt Romney, for example, was completely different privately than he was perceived publicly. That didn't come out until after the election, though.
The purpose of this thread, though, was to directly refute the NUMEROUS statements made attacking Pippen's leadership by MJ stans over the years. What this thread does--and what the teammates thread also will do--is present evidence from people who would know what really happened on those teams. It is then up to people to reach their conclusions based on the evidence. They are perfectly free to reject it. What is pathetic, though, is MJ stans' attempts to chill debate by throwing a collective temper tantrum everyone time they hear something that does not fit with the dictates of the Church of Jordan. The usual MJ stans were in this thread and you even had hypocritical temper tantrums from 2 others who strangely view anything in favor of Pippen as an attack on Jordan--and an attack on Jordan is a heinous deed indeed. Meanwhile Pippen gets ripped for 10 pages by 6-7 posters and those individuals don't say a word. :oldlol:
Jordan mythology does not have the same chokehold it did a few years ago. I am glad to see that and hope the nuanced reality that was the 90's Bulls continues to break free from the cloak of mythology.
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Yeah, but you weren't in the huddle. You weren't in the locker room. You weren't at the practices. You simply don't want to believe he was and are reaching a conclusion based on faith. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. To me there simply is too much evidence in the other direction to reach any conclusion but that Pippen was a great team leader.
What happens internally is often not known. Mitt Romney, for example, was completely different privately than he was perceived publicly. That didn't come out until after the election, though.
The purpose of this thread, though, was to directly refute the NUMEROUS statements made attacking Pippen's leadership by MJ stans over the years. What this thread does--and what the teammates thread also will do--is present evidence from people who would know what really happened on those teams. It is then up to people to reach their conclusions based on the evidence. They are perfectly free to reject it. What is pathetic, though, is MJ stans' attempts to chill debate by throwing a collective temper tantrum everyone time they hear something that does not fit with the dictates of the Church of Jordan. The usual MJ stans were in this thread and you even had hypocritical temper tantrums from 2 others who strangely view anything in favor of Pippen as an attack on Jordan--and an attack on Jordan is a heinous deed indeed. Meanwhile Pippen gets ripped for 10 pages by 6-7 posters and those individuals don't say a word. :oldlol:
Jordan mythology does not have the same chokehold it did a few years ago. I am glad to see that and hope the nuanced reality that was the 90's Bulls continues to break free from the cloak of mythology.[/QUOTE]
I'm just going on Pippen's own record ...
He wasn't a great leader in Houston or Portland. He bickered with teammates in Houston, unable to find a proper role (despite being hailed as a player that would sacrifice anything for the team ... so which is it? You can't have it both ways) and couldn't lead Portland when they needed leadership the most.
Someone needed to step up in that game 7 when season was collapsing around them, and no one did.
Refusing to go into a game with the season on the line because the play isn't called for you is a huge black mark. I can't even think of too many players who cracked so visibly under stress than that.
He's a great player, but even removing Jordan entirely from the equation, I don't think he's a "great leader" per se. Good leader who was most comfortable being an auxiliary to Jordan, sure. But guys like Magic and Russell are great leaders. You're not going to choose a Scottie Pippen led team over a Jordan or Magic or Bird led team if your life depended on it.
I don't think he was THE leader of the Bulls (that was Jordan). Nor do I think he's one of the all-time great leaders in basketball history (too many examples of when he wasn't). He was a terrific player though.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/dhJyzYb.gif[/IMG]
TLDR Jordan GOAT
Hey roundball lecock why don't you stop using Pippen and start making arguments against Jordan's actual game and failures. :oldlol:
Round ball think s he proved something.:roll: Mj is still the Goat no matter how much you try to downplay make up stats.
Look you are entitled to your view. Even though I rarely agree with you on anything relating to the 90's Bulls you always put forward legitimate, thoughtful points. You are a serious poster, unlike some.
I am interested to see your reaction when I post the quotes from his teammates and some others and see if that changes your view on this. I limited it to Jackson because he had so many quotes and because Jackson is the leading authority on this matter for his Chicago days.
The one thing I will say is you are conflating being the best player and some other things that are not the type of leadership we are talking about. We are talking about leadership in the sense of getting others in the group to do things, improving their performance and morale, etc. You are thinking a lot about leadership in the sense of productivity. Game 7 is a perfect example. For all we know he could have given the basketball equivalent of the Gettysburg address in the huddle--and it didn't work. What you are looking at is his productivity (or lack thereof in that case).
What is overlooked, and probably because it is the kind of little detail that is not remembered, is he dislocated his finger in the middle of Game 5. It was a fluke thing like going for a rebound and hitting Sabonis. He was shooting 47% in the series up to that point; he shot in the low 30's in Games 6, 7 and the rest of Game 5. What you seem to be requiring of him is actually what he did in Game 5. He came out guns blazing and had 22/6/3/6/4 to stave off elimination. He lacked the ability, due to his injury, to perform that way in the remaining games. He did show the instinct, though, previous to that injury. Read any press account of Game 5 of the WCF. He did the same thing as a player at various other points in the playoffs, i.e. the Jazz series and the Minnesota series. It was Pippen who hit the game winner to eliminate Utah.
My last paragraph is about the basketball productivity question. As far as being a team leader, he was widely acknowledged as Portland's leader during those years. This was acknowledged by players, coaches and the press. The Portland newspaper referred to him as the leader when he got in the HOF.
[QUOTE=Los Angeles Times]Mike Dunleavy may officially be the Portland Trail Blazers' coach but [B]their coach on the floor is do-it-all veteran Scottie Pippen.[/B][/QUOTE]
[url]http://articles.latimes.com/2000/may/23/sports/sp-33158[/url]
[QUOTE=The Oregonian]In his first season in Portland, [B]Pippen led the Blazers to a 59-23 record and into the Western Conference Finals[/B], where they had a 15-point fourth quarter lead in Game 7 but lost to the Lakers, who went on to win the first of their three consecutive titles. The Blazers haven't made it past the first round since then.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://blog.oregonlive.com/nba/2010/08/nba_high-5_45.html[/url]
[QUOTE=The Oregonian (in an article naming Pippen the #18 all-time Blazer)]
[B]
Worth went beyond box score[/B]
Although his statistics in Portland were modest, [B]there wasn't a player or coach on his Blazers teams that questioned the value of Scottie Pippen.[/B]
Playing in the twilight of his career, [B]Pippen was the most valuable piece of his Blazers teams because of his well-rounded play and the tone he set in the locker room and on the practice court.[/B]
"As a coach, you loved him," said[B] Mike Dunleavy, Portland's coach at the time. "He was the glue. The pro. And he was the guy who made the pass that led to the assist, the guy that made the deflection that led to the steal, and the guy who made the rebound that led to the fast break."[/B]
Playing both small forward and point guard, [B]Pippen could direct the offense and would always spearhead the defense.[/B]
"The thing about Pippen is, everybody knew he was good, but you didn't know how good until you were around him every day," said Maurice Cheeks, who coached Pippen in his final two seasons in Portland.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindblazersbeat/2010/02/blazers_top_40_no_18_scottie_p.html[/url]
So these are from the Portland newspaper from people who covered the team. That is what I am saying. The same things are said by coach after coach, player after player, reporter after reporter about him. It is either one big conspiracy or it is the truth.
[QUOTE]Round ball think s he proved something. Mj is still the Goat no matter how much you try to downplay make up stats.[/QUOTE]
I proved that Pippen was a leader--refuting years of attacks from people like you and other MJ stans on Pip in that regard. :cheers:
Yeah, I agree, MJ is my co-GOAT along with KAJ.
[QUOTE=juju151111]Round ball think s he proved something.:roll: Mj is still the Goat no matter how much you try to downplay make up stats.[/QUOTE]
I doni't even think he's saying MJ isn't the GOAT.
I think that he's bitter (just like Pip) that MJ is seen as having the bigger role and main catalyst for the Bulls' success. So he tries and tries and tries to make it appear as tho Pip was THE reason for the Bulls' success. Even if that's not what he's trying to purposely do, that's how it's coming across to basically everybody.
I have no doubt Pippen was a net positive in terms of the locker room. No doubt about that at all.
If I'm building a team, I want Scottie Pippen on it, no doubt.
But if you're asking me do I want Scottie Pippen to be THE leader on my team?
That's a trickier question as I don't know if I'd feel comfortable with him as the defacto leader.
He showed at times an ability to get rattled under pressure or to go MIA in certain moments.
I'd rather have a player with the mentality of a Jordan or Bird or Magic in that role of the defacto leader of my team over a Pippen.
We see even players like LeBron sometimes shrink in those tough situations, so it happens.
But Pippen is still a great player.
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Look you are entitled to your view. Even though I rarely agree with you on anything relating to the 90's Bulls you always put forward legitimate, thoughtful points. You are a serious poster, unlike some.
I am interested to see your reaction when I post the quotes from his teammates and some others and see if that changes your view on this. I limited it to Jackson because he had so many quotes and because Jackson is the leading authority on this matter for his Chicago days.
The one thing I will say is you are conflating being the best player and some other things that are not the type of leadership we are talking about. We are talking about leadership in the sense of getting others in the group to do things, improving their performance and morale, etc. You are thinking a lot about leadership in the sense of productivity. Game 7 is a perfect example. For all we know he could have given the basketball equivalent of the Gettysburg address in the huddle--and it didn't work. What you are looking at is his productivity (or lack thereof in that case).
What is overlooked, and probably because it is the kind of little detail that is not remembered, is he dislocated his finger in the middle of Game 5. It was a fluke thing like going for a rebound and hitting Sabonis. He was shooting 47% in the series up to that point; he shot in the low 30's in Games 6, 7 and the rest of Game 5. What you seem to be requiring of him is actually what he did in Game 5. He came out guns blazing and had 22/6/3/6/4 to stave off elimination. He lacked the ability, due to his injury, to perform that way in the remaining games. He did show the instinct, though, previous to that injury. Read any press account of Game 5 of the WCF. He did the same thing as a player at various other points in the playoffs, i.e. the Jazz series and the Minnesota series. It was Pippen who hit the game winner to eliminate Utah.
My last paragraph is about the basketball productivity question. As far as being a team leader, he was widely acknowledged as Portland's leader during those years. This was acknowledged by players, coaches and the press. The Portland newspaper referred to him as the leader when he got in the HOF.
[url]http://articles.latimes.com/2000/may/23/sports/sp-33158[/url]
[url]http://blog.oregonlive.com/nba/2010/08/nba_high-5_45.html[/url]
[url]http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindblazersbeat/2010/02/blazers_top_40_no_18_scottie_p.html[/url]
So these are from the Portland newspaper from people who covered the team. That is what I am saying. The same things are said by coach after coach, player after player, reporter after reporter about him. It is either one big conspiracy or it is the truth.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Soundwave]I have no doubt Pippen was a net positive in terms of the locker room. No doubt about that at all.
If I'm building a team, I want Scottie Pippen on it, no doubt.
But if you're asking me do I want Scottie Pippen to be THE leader on my team?
That's a trickier question as I don't know if I'd feel comfortable with him as the defacto leader.
He showed at times an ability to get rattled under pressure or to go MIA in certain moments. And that happens and its nothing to be that ashamed of, not many players period are cut out to handle that type of situation with regularity.
We see if players like LeBron sometimes shrink in those situations.
I'd rather have a player with the mentality of a Jordan or Bird or Magic in that role of the defacto leader of my team.
But Pippen is still a great player.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://24.media.tumblr.com/156dbd7dabdbe19764d7cdb705df9cd0/tumblr_ml7vt1MH6x1qiz3j8o1_r1_500.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Soundwave]I'm just going on Pippen's own record ...
He wasn't a great leader in Houston or Portland. He bickered with teammates in Houston, unable to find a proper role (despite being hailed as a player that would sacrifice anything for the team ... so which is it? You can't have it both ways) and couldn't lead Portland when they needed leadership the most.
[/QUOTE]
He was an old man even by the time he went to Houston. And whats more. Is just because his team lost doesn't mean hes not a great leader. Only one team can win. And even then they werent favored to win. Imagine that? A team loses a series to a team with a better record than theirs. Why are you putting this standard on Pippen when no other player has been able to meet it?
[QUOTE]Someone needed to step up in that game 7 when season was collapsing around them, and no one did. [/QUOTE]
Get off the tit already. You act like their the only team to give up a 15 pt lead. How does this prove anything? Especially when he was the catalyst when the Bulls did the exact same thing in 92.
[QUOTE]Refusing to go into a game with the season on the line because the play isn't called for you is a huge black mark. I can't even think of too many players who cracked so visibly under stress than that.[/QUOTE]
Dont be ridiculous bro. You act like he did this every year. How many times has this been mentioned in this thread? Can you come with some new material?
[QUOTE]He's a great player, but even removing Jordan entirely from the equation, I don't think he's a "great leader" per se. Good leader who was most comfortable being an auxiliary to Jordan, sure. But guys like Magic and Russell are great leaders. You're not going to choose a Scottie Pippen led team over a Jordan or Magic or Bird led team if your life depended on it. [/QUOTE]
Im going with the best team. Even more, how many times did a Magic led team lose to a team they should've beat? You sure you would bet your life on Magics ability to lead a team?
[QUOTE]I don't think he was THE leader of the Bulls (that was Jordan). Nor do I think he's one of the all-time great leaders in basketball history (too many examples of when he wasn't). He was a terrific player though.[/QUOTE]
How arrogant do you have to be? Phil Jackson. The coach of the Bulls, said he was. Wow.
[QUOTE]That's a trickier question as I don't know if I'd feel comfortable with him as the defacto leader.
He showed at times an ability to get rattled under pressure or to go MIA in certain moments. And that happens and its nothing to be that ashamed of, not many players period are cut out to handle that type of situation with regularity. [/QUOTE]
That is a different, more nuanced argument. What MJ stans repeatedly said for years is he was a poor leader.
He was the clear primary leader of a team that had the second best record in the league and came within minutes of the Finals, where they would have been heavy favorites (the WCF was the real Finals back then). Remember, the team they lost to was a 67-15 team with a peak Shaq--Shaq's very best year--and Kobe. If Pippen went to Portland in 99' instead of 00' there likely would have been a different result for the 99' team. The 00' Lakers were simply too strong. He continued in that leadership role for another three seasons, although after 00' he was diminished as a player. What people never mention about the 15 point collapse is the role Sabonis getting a 5th ticky tack foul had in that game. That is what triggered the slide.
He did not like the press spotlight. I agree with that but that is more of an external issue, i.e. being the face of a franchise, and not relevant to what happens on the court. Other than 1.8 second-gate, nothing like that happened before or after.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]He was an old man even by the time he went to Houston. And whats more. Is just because his team lost doesn't mean hes not a great leader. Only one team can win. And even then they werent favored to win. Imagine that? A team loses a series to a team with a better record than theirs. Why are you putting this standard on Pippen when no other player has been able to meet it?
Get off the tit already. You act like their the only team to give up a 15 pt lead. How does this prove anything? Especially when he was the catalyst when the Bulls did the exact same thing in 92.
Dont be ridiculous bro. You act like he did this every year. How many times has this been mentioned in this thread? Can you come with some new material?
Im going with the best team. Even more, how many times did a Magic led team lose to a team they should've beat? You sure you would bet your life on Magics ability to lead a team?
How arrogant do you have to be? Phil Jackson. The coach of the Bulls, said he was. Wow.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i.minus.com/iEroc81WejHX6.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Look you are entitled to your view. Even though I rarely agree with you on anything relating to the 90's Bulls you always put forward legitimate, thoughtful points. You are a serious poster, unlike some.
I am interested to see your reaction when I post the quotes from his teammates and some others and see if that changes your view on this. I limited it to Jackson because he had so many quotes and because Jackson is the leading authority on this matter for his Chicago days.
The one thing I will say is you are conflating being the best player and some other things that are not the type of leadership we are talking about. We are talking about leadership in the sense of getting others in the group to do things, improving their performance and morale, etc. You are thinking a lot about leadership in the sense of productivity. Game 7 is a perfect example. For all we know he could have given the basketball equivalent of the Gettysburg address in the huddle--and it didn't work. What you are looking at is his productivity (or lack thereof in that case).
What is overlooked, and probably because it is the kind of little detail that is not remembered, is he dislocated his finger in the middle of Game 5. It was a fluke thing like going for a rebound and hitting Sabonis. He was shooting 47% in the series up to that point; he shot in the low 30's in Games 6, 7 and the rest of Game 5. What you seem to be requiring of him is actually what he did in Game 5. He came out guns blazing and had 22/6/3/6/4 to stave off elimination. He lacked the ability, due to his injury, to perform that way in the remaining games. He did show the instinct, though, previous to that injury. Read any press account of Game 5 of the WCF. He did the same thing as a player at various other points in the playoffs, i.e. the Jazz series and the Minnesota series. It was Pippen who hit the game winner to eliminate Utah.
My last paragraph is about the basketball productivity question. As far as being a team leader, he was widely acknowledged as Portland's leader during those years. This was acknowledged by players, coaches and the press. The Portland newspaper referred to him as the leader when he got in the HOF.
[url]http://articles.latimes.com/2000/may/23/sports/sp-33158[/url]
[url]http://blog.oregonlive.com/nba/2010/08/nba_high-5_45.html[/url]
[url]http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindblazersbeat/2010/02/blazers_top_40_no_18_scottie_p.html[/url]
So these are from the Portland newspaper from people who covered the team. That is what I am saying. The same things are said by coach after coach, player after player, reporter after reporter about him. It is either one big conspiracy or it is the truth.
I proved that Pippen was a leader--refuting years of attacks from people like you and other MJ stans on Pip in that regard. :cheers:
Yeah, I agree, MJ is my co-GOAT along with KAJ.[/QUOTE]
When did I say Pippen wasn't a leader on the Bulls?:wtf: Like I said before your delusional. They were Co captains and that's all needs to be said. Mj was the best player and Pippen his second fiddle. What's to discuss?
[QUOTE=97 bulls]He was an old man even by the time he went to Houston. And whats more. Is just because his team lost doesn't mean hes not a great leader. Only one team can win. And even then they werent favored to win. Imagine that? A team loses a series to a team with a better record than theirs. Why are you putting this standard on Pippen when no other player has been able to meet it?
Get off the tit already. You act like their the only team to give up a 15 pt lead. How does this prove anything? Especially when he was the catalyst when the Bulls did the exact same thing in 92.
Dont be ridiculous bro. You act like he did this every year. How many times has this been mentioned in this thread? Can you come with some new material?
Im going with the best team. Even more, how many times did a Magic led team lose to a team they should've beat? You sure you would bet your life on Magics ability to lead a team?
How arrogant do you have to be? Phil Jackson. The coach of the Bulls, said he was. Wow.[/QUOTE]
I'm stating three clear examples, one being incredibly egregious.
And 33 is not an "old man". A 33-year-old Jordan would win the title with that Rockets team with not much fuss. So would a 33-year-old Bryant most likely.
So I disagree. He played every game for the Rockets and led them in minutes too.
Pippen himself has many times Michael was their leader and the greatest to ever play, etc. etc. etc. so why even try to manufacture a debate here? There really isn't one.
"Michael's our leader, so we feed off that, and he showed why tonight by taking his game to another level. That's what he does." is pretty much like the standard sound bite you'd get from Scottie on any given night after the game.
[QUOTE=Soundwave]I'm stating three clear examples, one being incredibly egregious.
And 33 is not an "old man". A 33-year-old Jordan would win the title with that Rockets team with not much fuss. So would a 33-year-old Bryant most likely.
So I disagree. He played every game for the Rockets and led them in minutes too.
Pippen himself has many times Michael was their leader and the greatest to ever play, etc. etc. etc. so if there why even try to manufacture a debate here? There really isn't one.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://31.media.tumblr.com/a8238c1159ed2c428c0b9610e668895d/tumblr_my2lplvDF71qeuiqyo6_500.gif[/IMG]
Jordan also would say Pippen was the best player on the team. It is funny how MJ fans invoke Pippen quotes on MJ but ignore the opposite. Magic? MJ is the one who compared Pippen to Magic and Bird--and it was done in a private interview if I recall correctly, not a public statement to pump up Pippen.
juju, maybe I confused you with another MJ stan.
[QUOTE]And 33 is not an "old man". [/QUOTE]
He was a shell of himself after the 98' back injury-which came on top of various other injuries in the preceding year, i.e. foot, neck. He was 33 with the mileage of a 35-36 year old when you count his deep playoff runs and his 2 Olympics.
Why do MJ fans dwell on one year in Houston and ignore four years in Portland? He did not fit in Houston's offense where they made him a spot up shooter a la Bosh in Miami. That did not suit his game. He did in fact lead a team to Game 7 of the WCF--and that team probably came within minutes of a ring.
MJ fans say the Wizards years should not even be spoken of. So why dwell on Houston?
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Jordan also would say Pippen was the best player on the team. It is funny how MJ fans invoke Pippen quotes on MJ but ignore the opposite. Magic? MJ is the one who compared Pippen to Magic and Bird--and it was done in a private interview if I recall correctly, not a public statement to pump up Pippen.
juju, maybe I confused you with another MJ stan.[/QUOTE]
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