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[QUOTE=mehyaM24]- defended magic the best of anyone in that series (20/9/7 with DPOY defense is a bill russell-like series)
- was the best defensive player and playmaker in the 97 finals (20/8/3 with DPOY defense, once again, is russell-like)
i know that jordan fans only think offense = basketball, but there's also another side. its called defense :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Jordan has no defense? :lol :oldlol: :roll:
[QUOTE=Soundwave]Barkley was traded for Hornacek as the best player going to Philly and at that time he one really good season under his belt and 2 other solid ones.
So it's not like they sold the farm to get him.
Get Jordan to the Lakers and they eventually would surround him with very good talent IMO. Jerry Buss wanted Jordan badly especially after the LA Kings landed Wayne Gretzky and became the talk of the town.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but it was not Barkley for Hornacek straight up. The Suns also had to give up 2 other starters in addition to Hornacek. That would be like trading MJ to New York and NY giving up Ewing, Starks and Smith in exchange.
Yeah I do agree MJ going to a competent organization would likely eventually win (and I believe Krause did a great job assembling and then re-tooling the 80's and 90's Bulls). The question is when? When would MJ have enough? Let's say he demanded a trade at 27 or 28. Then it would take them a few years to build around him, so maybe by 29 or 30 they were contenders. Even that is not a given. The Lakers could not do it with KAJ until they got lucky with drafting Magic but if he want to a team with a good FO like the Lakers they would build fast. MJ could have wound up like KAJ in LA spending several years before they built a championship team. KAJ was 32 by the time he got Magic.
[QUOTE=mehyaM24]- defended magic the best of anyone in that series (20/9/7 with DPOY defense is a bill russell-like series)
- was the best defensive player and playmaker in the 97 finals (20/8/3 with DPOY defense, once again, is russell-like)
i know that jordan fans only think offense = basketball, but there's also another side. its called defense :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Pippen guarded Magic for 1 half of basketball idiot.:facepalm
Mj was the primary defender even after game 2. Mj was wayyyyyy better in 91 your a complete retard.
97 Mj made all the clutch plays.
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Yeah but it was not Barkley for Hornacek straight up. The Suns also had to give up 2 other starters in addition to Hornacek. That would be like trading MJ to New York and NY giving up Ewing, Starks and Smith in exchange.
Yeah I do agree MJ going to a competent organization would likely eventually win (and I believe Krause did a great job assembling and then re-tooling the 80's and 90's Bulls). The question is when? When would MJ have enough? Let's say he demanded a trade at 27 or 28. Then it would take them a few years to build around him, so maybe by 29 or 30 they were contenders. Even that is not a given. The Lakers could not do it with KAJ until they got lucky with drafting Magic but if he want to a team with a good FO like the Lakers they would build fast. MJ could have wound up like KAJ in LA spending several years before they built a championship team. KAJ was 32 by the time he got Magic.[/QUOTE]
Tim Perry and Andrew Lang were no where near as good as John Starks alone. So I don't buy that. That package was OK, but nothing that special either.
Hornacek is no where close to a Patrick Ewing either, lol.
I think MJ would've come under pressure from his agent David Falk and the marketing people at Nike to get out of Chicago by 1989 or so if the team wasn't showing tangible signs of being competitive by then. I think a trade around the summer of 1990 if the Bulls were still putrid probably would've occurred.
[QUOTE=Soundwave]Good thing Jordan is one of the best defensive players to ever have played the game :oldlol:
He is pretty much the apex of an NBA player mastering both offence and defence and team dominance simultaneously.
What argument are you even trying to push?[/QUOTE]
jordan was a great defender, just like pippen was a GREAT offensive player.
thing is, pippen's defense carried impact like a big. some of the all time bigs actually. his defensive rating (adjusted impact) is right there with hakeem and drob (according to drtg, 2 of the most dominant players defensively).
of course this only proves the point i am trying to illustrate. jordan fans only care about offense, but ignore that pippen was by FAR the best defensive player (and playmaker) on the team.
[QUOTE=Asukal]Jordan has no defense? :lol :oldlol: :roll:[/QUOTE]
^crazy jordan fans seeing things :oldlol:
where did i say jordan "has no defense"?
[QUOTE=mehyaM24]jordan was a great defender, just like pippen was a GREAT offensive player.
thing is, pippen's defense carried impact like a big. some of the all time bigs actually. his defensive rating (adjusted impact) is right there with hakeem and drob.
of course this only proves the point i am trying to illustrate. jordan fans only care about offense, but ignore that pippen was by FAR the best defensive player (and playmaker) on the team.[/QUOTE]
Not really equivalent, Jordan is probably the best defensive SG ever and one of the top 10 defenders in NBA history ... Scottie Pippen is nowhere near the best offensive SF ever.
Tex Winters (I believe) said Jordan was the better defender too, but hey I guess he doesn't know what he's talking about.
Jordan was arguably the most complete player ever to play the game at the highest levels, so this is just a stupid argument to press on with, but be my guest, lol.
Pippen was a good offensive player, *great*, lol I'd probably reserve that for players like Bird, David Robinson, Hakeem, etc. those are great offensive players.
[QUOTE=juju151111]Pippen guarded Magic for 1 half of basketball idiot.:facepalm
Mj was the primary defender even after game 2. Mj was wayyyyyy better in 91 your a complete retard.
97 Mj made all the clutch plays.[/QUOTE]
per phil jackson, pippen was the best defender in that series (or "set the tone", he says). :confusedshrug:
97 jordan got out rebounded, assisted and was horrible on defense. his scoring was great, but again, thats only one part of the game.
[QUOTE=mehyaM24]per phil jackson, pippen was the best defender in that series (or "set the tone", he says). :confusedshrug:
97 jordan got out rebounded, assisted and [B]was horrible on defense[/B] in 97. his scoring was great, but again, only one part of the game.[/QUOTE]
:biggums:
:facepalm
:lol :oldlol: :roll:
[QUOTE=mehyaM24]^crazy jordan fans seeing things :oldlol:
where did i say jordan "has no defense"?[/QUOTE]
Because that is exactly what you are implying moron. :oldlol:
Just accept it, Jordan is the GOAT and Pip was his sidekick. Deal with it. :pimp:
[QUOTE=Asukal]Because that is exactly what you are implying moron. :oldlol:
Just accept it, Jordan is the GOAT and Pip was his sidekick. Deal with it. :pimp:[/QUOTE]
jordan won a dpoy in the 80s. was on multiple all-nba teams for his defensive expertise. why would i "imply" that he played no defense? :facepalm
[QUOTE=Soundwave]Not really equivalent, Jordan is probably the best defensive SG ever and one of the top 10 defenders in NBA history ... Scottie Pippen is nowhere near the best offensive SF ever.
Tex Winters (I believe) said Jordan was the better defender too, but hey I guess he doesn't know what he's talking about.
Jordan was arguably the most complete player ever to play the game at the highest levels, so this is just a stupid argument to press on with, but be my guest, lol.
Pippen was a good offensive player, *great*, lol I'd probably reserve that for players like Bird, David Robinson, Hakeem, etc. those are great offensive players.[/QUOTE]
phil jackson and the bulls players said pippen was the best playmaker, defender, and their captain. but alright. :confusedshrug:
pippen's defense can be measured, and it was damn near on the level of hakeems. jordans defense NEVER had that kind of impact.
[QUOTE=mehyaM24]per phil jackson, pippen was the best defender in that series (or "set the tone", he says). :confusedshrug:
97 jordan got out rebounded, assisted and was horrible on defense. his scoring was great, but again, thats only one part of the game.[/QUOTE]
You still not explaining to me how Pippen deserve MVP over Mj in 91. Mj had better numbers across the board including gamewinne r and Mj played great defense too. So you make no Damn sense.
Horrible on defense my ass and stay off the Pipe. Mj has 6 finals MVP and Pippen has none. Mj has 5 MVPs and Pippen has none.
[QUOTE=mehyaM24]phil jackson and the bulls players said pippen was the best playmaker, defender, and their captain. but alright. :confusedshrug:
pippen's defense can be measured, and it was damn near on the level of hakeems. jordans defense NEVER had that kind of impact.[/QUOTE]
Yeah and? Jordan is the greatest player ever, and probably the most complete period. Great offensive player, great defender, great competitor/winner/prime time player.
Pippen is not in that class of player. And that's no disrespect to him. Jordan's luminaries are Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Magic, Bird, etc. not Pippen. End of discussion.
There's no one on the planet that would give Pippen the Finals MVP in '91 either.
[QUOTE=Soundwave]Yeah and? Jordan is the greatest player ever, and probably the most complete period.
Pippen is not in that class of player. And that's no disrespect to him. End of discussion.[/QUOTE]
i think my point was obvious.
pippen was more complete than jordan. better playmaker, defender, rebounder, and had more winning intangibles (11 wins without jordan in the playoffs- jordan 1-9 without pippen).
here are some awesome videos highlighting pippen's versatility:
[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KkJoMq_Z7A"]Scottie Pippen: Complete Player[/URL]
[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB2NmpVEnjs"]Scottie Pippen: Complete Player 2[/URL]
[QUOTE=mehyaM24]i think my point was obvious.
pippen was more complete than jordan. better playmaker, defender, rebounder, and had more winning intangibles (11 wins without jordan in the playoffs- jordan 1-9 without pippen).
here are some awesome videos highlighting pippen's versatility:
[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KkJoMq_Z7A"]Scottie Pippen: Complete Player[/URL]
[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB2NmpVEnjs"]Scottie Pippen: Complete Player 2[/URL][/QUOTE]
Jordan is the most complete player in NBA history. Dominant offensive player, dominant defender, dominant winner/intangiable performer. He's basically the intersection of Wilt (individual dominance) and Russell (team winner, competitive dominance).
Stop arguin with these fakkits. They might possibly be one of the biggest MJ nut-huggers in here, undercover that is. This fakkit is giving me some blitz vibe
[QUOTE=Soundwave]Jordan is the most complete player in NBA history. Dominant offensive player, dominant defender, dominant winner/intangiable performer. He's basically the intersection of Wilt (individual dominance) and Russell (team winner, competitive dominance).[/QUOTE]
jordan was NOT as complete as pippen, who was better in 3/4 major categories (defense, rebounding, playmaking) not including intangibles (pippen gets the nod here, as well). the only thing jordan did better than pippen was score.
jordan is probably the GOAT scorer (wilt in the regular-season- jordan in the playoffs).
[QUOTE=mehyaM24]jordan was NOT as complete as pippen, who was better in 3/4 major categories (defense, rebounding, playmaking) not including intangibles (pippen gets the nod here, as well). the only thing jordan did better than pippen was score.
jordan is probably the GOAT scorer (wilt in the regular-season- jordan in the playoffs).[/QUOTE]
Jordan is the GOAT period. Even on this board everytime there's a realistic discussion about top 10s there's not even much debate about it. Get over it.
[QUOTE=Soundwave]Jordan is the GOAT period. Even on this board everytime there's a realistic discussion about top 10s there's not even much debate about it. Get over it.[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:
jordan is not the GOAT "period". he definitely has a case, but you cannot factually prove him as GOAT.
- wilt has more scoring records
- russell has more championships
- kareem has GOAT longevity
difference with what i am saying, is i can factually back up my statements (statistically, pippen was a better playmaker, rebounder and defender per advanced metrics). you cannot, and that upsets you- hence the red-herring and strawman attacks.
[QUOTE=mehyaM24]jordan is not the GOAT period. he has a case for GOAT, but you cannot factually prove him as GOAT.
- wilt has more scoring records
- russell has more championships
- kareem has GOAT longevity
difference with what i am saying, is i can factually back up my statements (statistically, pippen was a better playmaker, rebounder and defender per advanced metrics).[/QUOTE]
Not in the playoffs and you still didn't tell me how Pippen was better in 91. I'm still waiting on this hilarious logic.
[QUOTE=mehyaM24]:rolleyes:
jordan is not the GOAT "period". he definitely has a case, but you cannot factually prove him as GOAT.
- wilt has more scoring records
- russell has more championships
- kareem has GOAT longevity
difference with what i am saying, is i can factually back up my statements (statistically, pippen was a better playmaker, rebounder and defender per advanced metrics). you cannot, and that upsets you- hence the red-herring and strawman attacks.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Jennifer-Lawrence-ok-thumbs-up.gif[/IMG]
These Lecramp stans are the worst stans of all time, even more so than them kobe stans. These guys are just so desperate its extremely pathetic. :facepalm
Let's stop arguing with these morons already. Let's not disrespect Pip by arguing against these trolls. :cheers:
[QUOTE=Asukal]These Lecramp stans are the worst stans of all time, even more so than them kobe stans. These guys are just so desperate its extremely pathetic. :facepalm
Let's stop arguing with these morons already. Let's not disrespect Pip by arguing against these trolls. :cheers:[/QUOTE]
:oldlol: at this jocker throwing a temper tantrum. guess thats what happens when reality crashes down on your head.
[QUOTE=mehyaM24]:oldlol: at this jocker throwing a temper tantrum. guess thats what happens when reality crashes down on your head.[/QUOTE]
Yeah what an awful reality it is to be a Jordan fan, what a terrible career :oldlol:
[QUOTE=mehyaM24]:oldlol: at this jocker throwing a temper tantrum. guess thats what happens when reality crashes down on your head.[/QUOTE]
Temper tantrum? :oldlol:
I pity you fools forever wishing your boy is the GOAT which he will never be. Just deal with it. :banana:
[QUOTE=andgar923]
Pippen wasn't an anomaly or super special you know.
You could transplant him with Ariza and he may have similar results. [/QUOTE]
This is why you will always be the #1 MJ stan. :bowdown:
Was reading the "Bag it, Michael" issue of Sports Illustrated this morning. There was an Inside the NBA portion on the Bulls struggling of late, having lost 8 of 11 after a 34-13 start during the 1993-94 season (sans Michael).
In hopes of turning around their fortunes, Phil Jackson experimented with starting Pippen at shooting guard and Toni Kukoc at small forward. Kukoc went 0-9 and they lost by eight to the Cavs. Jackson said the experiment "failed miserably." Then this:
[quote]Part of the Chicago Stadium crowd apparently agreed, because they booed the Bulls on occassion. The reaction didn't seem particularly directed at Pippen, but he took it personally. [b]"I have been here seven years, and I have never seen a white guy get booed in the Stadium," he said after the game, apparently forgetting the harsh treatment white teammate Will Perdue has received from time to time.[/b] "It seems to be that when things go bad, and the ball is in your hands and you don't score, then the fans take over. But Toni was 0 for whatever tonight, and I never heard one fan get on him." After cooling off for a day, Pippen didn't exactly back away from his comments. [b]"I pretty much apologize for it, to some extent," he said.[/b][/quote]
The NBA's likely made some solid strides in player-media public relations over the past 20 years, no? I mean, yikes.
[QUOTE=Rake2204]Was reading the "Bag it, Michael" issue of Sports Illustrated this morning. There was an Inside the NBA portion on the Bulls struggling of late, having lost 8 of 11 after a 34-13 start during the 1993-94 season (sans Michael).
In hopes of turning around their fortunes, Phil Jackson experimented with starting Pippen at shooting guard and Toni Kukoc at small forward. Kukoc went 0-9 and they lost by eight to the Cavs. Jackson said the experiment "failed miserably." Then this:
The NBA's likely made some solid strides in player-media public relations over the past 20 years, no? I mean, yikes.[/QUOTE]
Wow. Just wow.
And then refusing to take the court in a pivotal playoff game because a play wasn't run for him. Like Jackson said to Jon my Bach "f him".
That is just ridiculous.
[QUOTE=mehyaM24]having a great series doesn't make you a "leader". why do jordan fans (and only jordan fans) fail to grasp this concept? you've seen the articles and newspaper clippings RR pulled up. [B]pippen was quite clearly "the guy" in chicago. the conductor of the offense/defense. the head of the snake.[/B][/QUOTE]
This line has me convinced that you're either Jeff just jerking our chains for the lulz, or you're just trying to generate ISH traffic because you're just that bored.
:oldlol:
Let's see how the 90's Bulls "Go to Guy" fared in each NBA Finals series when compared to "role player" MJ:
[B][COLOR="Red"]Pip 1991:
20.8 ppg 45% fg/9.4 rebounds/6.6 assists /2.4 steals/1.0 blocks/20% 3p[/COLOR]
MJ 1991:
31.2 ppg 56% fg/6.6 rebounds/11.4 assists/2.8 steals/1.4 blocks/50% 3p
[COLOR="Red"]Pip 1992:
20.8 ppg 48% fg/8.3 rebounds/7.7 assists/1.5 steals /0.7 blocks/22% 3p[/COLOR]
MJ 1992:
35.8 ppg 53% fg/4.8 rebounds /6.5 assists /1.7 steals/0.3 blocks/43% 3p
[COLOR="Red"]Pip 1993:
21.2 ppg 44% fg/9.2 rebounds/7.7 assists/ 2.0 steals/1.0 blocks/0% 3p[/COLOR]
MJ 1993:
41.0 ppg 51% fg/8.5 rebounds/6.3 assists/1.7 steals/0.7 blocks/40% 3p
[COLOR="Red"]Pip 1996:
15.7 ppg 34% fg/8.2 rebounds/5.3 assists/2.3 steals/1.3 blocks/24% 3p[/COLOR]
MJ 1996:
27.3 ppg 42% fg/5.3 rebounds/4.2 assists/1.7 steals/0.2 blocks/32% 3p
[COLOR="Red"]Pip 1997:
20.0 ppg 42% fg/8.3 rebounds/3.5 assists/1.7 steals/1.8 blocks/38% 3p[/COLOR]
MJ 1997:
32.3 ppg 46% fg/7.0 rebounds/6.0 assists/1.2 steals/0.8 blocks/32% 3p
[COLOR="Red"]Pip 1998:
15.7 ppg 41% fg/6.8 rebounds/4.8 assists/1.7 steals/0.8 blocks/23% 3p[/COLOR]
MJ 1998:
33.5 ppg 43% fg/4.0 rebounds/2.3 assists/ 1.8 steals/0.7 blocks/31% 3p[/B]
[URL="http://www.basketball-reference.com/"]http://www.basketball-reference.com/[/URL]
It's one thing to be a trash poster and, at the very least, be entertaining. It's a whole nother ball of wax to be trash and not know what the f@ck you're talking about.
[QUOTE]. There was an Inside the NBA portion on the Bulls struggling of late, having lost 8 of 11 after a 34-13 start during the 1993-94 season (sans Michael)[/QUOTE]
They turned it around (nearly won the #1 seed), partly due to a huge game Pippen had against the East-leading Hawks. That slump coincided with Horace Grant being out with the "blue flue" I believe.
[QUOTE=Nevaeh]This line has me convinced that you're either Jeff just jerking our chains for the lulz, or you're just trying to generate ISH traffic because you're just that bored.
:oldlol:
Let's see how the 90's Bulls "Go to Guy" fared in each NBA Finals series when compared to "role player" MJ:
[B][COLOR="Red"]Pip 1991:
20.8 ppg 45% fg/9.4 rebounds/6.6 assists /2.4 steals/1.0 blocks/20% 3p[/COLOR]
MJ 1991:
31.2 ppg 56% fg/6.6 rebounds/11.4 assists/2.8 steals/1.4 blocks/50% 3p
[COLOR="Red"]Pip 1992:
20.8 ppg 48% fg/8.3 rebounds/7.7 assists/1.5 steals /0.7 blocks/22% 3p[/COLOR]
MJ 1992:
35.8 ppg 53% fg/4.8 rebounds /6.5 assists /1.7 steals/0.3 blocks/43% 3p
[COLOR="Red"]Pip 1993:
21.2 ppg 44% fg/9.2 rebounds/7.7 assists/ 2.0 steals/1.0 blocks/0% 3p[/COLOR]
MJ 1993:
41.0 ppg 51% fg/8.5 rebounds/6.3 assists/1.7 steals/0.7 blocks/40% 3p
[COLOR="Red"]Pip 1996:
15.7 ppg 34% fg/8.2 rebounds/5.3 assists/2.3 steals/1.3 blocks/24% 3p[/COLOR]
MJ 1996:
27.3 ppg 42% fg/5.3 rebounds/4.2 assists/1.7 steals/0.2 blocks/32% 3p
[COLOR="Red"]Pip 1997:
20.0 ppg 42% fg/8.3 rebounds/3.5 assists/1.7 steals/1.8 blocks/38% 3p[/COLOR]
MJ 1997:
32.3 ppg 46% fg/7.0 rebounds/6.0 assists/1.2 steals/0.8 blocks/32% 3p
[COLOR="Red"]Pip 1998:
15.7 ppg 41% fg/6.8 rebounds/4.8 assists/1.7 steals/0.8 blocks/23% 3p[/COLOR]
MJ 1998:
33.5 ppg 43% fg/4.0 rebounds/2.3 assists/ 1.8 steals/0.7 blocks/31% 3p[/B]
[URL="http://www.basketball-reference.com/"]http://www.basketball-reference.com/[/URL]
It's one thing to be a trash poster and, at the very least, be entertaining. It's a whole nother ball of wax to be trash and not know what the f@ck you're talking about.[/QUOTE]He doesn't understand the first thing about basketball tbf. All of us can see it. Why you're concerning yourself with someone like that is beyond me.
[QUOTE=Dragic4Life]Didn't know Lebron retired already...[/QUOTE]
Don't worry, he doesn't even have close to 4 more in him.
Jesus Christ,
On one end you have retards saying how Pippen was the leader of the Bulls, on the other end you have Jordan stans saying how you can replace Pippen with Ariza and generate similar results.
:facepalm :facepalm
[QUOTE=mehyaM24]:rolleyes:
jordan is not the GOAT "period". he definitely has a case, but you cannot factually prove him as GOAT.
- wilt has more scoring records
- russell has more championships
- kareem has GOAT longevity
difference with what i am saying, is i can factually back up my statements (statistically, pippen was a better playmaker, rebounder and defender per advanced metrics). you cannot, and that upsets you- hence the red-herring and strawman attacks.[/QUOTE]
LOL at scoring records and longetivity like its even close to rings as value. But as expected, bran stans have beta standards.
[QUOTE=knicksman]LOL at scoring records and longetivity like its even close to rings as value. But as expected, bran stans have beta standards.[/QUOTE]
Shame MJ never won any ring during or before his peak... he only won them in the weak 90s era when he got help. Almost as if championships are a team achievement:lol
[QUOTE=Quickening]Shame MJ never won any ring during or before his peak... he only won them in the weak 90s era when he got help. Almost as if championships are a team achievement:lol[/QUOTE]
More like he won when he realized that bran style(statpadding) isnt the way to win rings. In fact mj made magic quit once he dominated him in the playoffs.:lol
[QUOTE=mehyaM24]jordan was a great defender, just like pippen was a GREAT offensive player.
thing is, pippen's defense carried impact like a big. some of the all time bigs actually. his defensive rating (adjusted impact) is right there with hakeem and drob (according to drtg, 2 of the most dominant players defensively).
of course this only proves the point i am trying to illustrate. jordan fans only care about offense, but ignore that pippen was by FAR the best defensive player (and playmaker) on the team.[/QUOTE]
even undrafted players like ben wallace can be defensive players. LOL thats how easy it is to play. Its like the gap of a CEO and a janitor. Defense=dirty work. And only scrubs like pippen plays that because he would be out of the league if he wont do it. Meanwhile jordan could chose to not play defense and teams would still be scrambling to build around him. But of course bran stans with their beta standards. They think being janitor or flipping burgers is equivalent to being a CEO thats why they are losers in real life. :oldlol:
Wow. people really overrate pippen when hes just a borderline all star caliber player. Pippen would just be iguodala if not for jordan. In short nothing.
Bran stans clinging on the fact that mj couod only have 3 rings. Such losers
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