What does LeBron need to do to be accepted as the GOAT?

[QUOTE=Soundwave]You wish that was true.

Heat were just paper tigers, punch them in the nose, get some blood of them, and they run away. No fight, no heart.

They won on talent (and some Ray Allen flukiness) and nothing else and that only gets you there half the time.

The Spurs aren't unbeatable, they're an old ass team that exploited the fact that the Heat don't play well together as a team. LeBron forced Wade and Bosh into being glorified versions of his Cavs squad and eventually those chickens were going to come home to roost and they did.

The Spurs almost lost to a geriatric Dirk Nowitzki in round and needed an Ibaka injury to clear the Thunder. 2001 Lakers or 96 Bulls they weren't.[/QUOTE]

Right, because the Thunder came so close to winning at San Antonio with Ibaka.. Oh wait, 30 point blowout.

Let's be realistc here, MJ on the Heat would be exactly the same.

Title in 2013 and Loss in 2014...

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]
Title in 2013 and Loss in 2014...[/QUOTE]
Titles in 2011, 2012, 2013, and more competitive 2007 / 2014.

7 titles total.


Even then there would be debate.

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]Right, because the Thunder came so close to winning at San Antonio with Ibaka.. Oh wait, 30 point blowout.

Let's be realistc here, MJ on the Heat would be exactly the same.

[B]Title in 2013[/B] and Loss in 2014...[/QUOTE]

MJ wouldnt win in 2013 either

no way MJ plays 1-5 defense to lock up the Pacers in the ECF

[QUOTE=Cousin Oliver]7 titles total.


Even then there would be debate.[/QUOTE]
10 more titles. He really phucked up his legacy.

[QUOTE=Cousin Oliver]7 titles total.


Even then there would be debate.[/QUOTE]

Still won't erase 2011 and 2014.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]Titles in 2011, 2012, 2013, and more competitive 2007 / 2014.[/QUOTE]
Jordan wouldn't have played in 2014. He would have quit with a chance to 4-peat like he did 2 other times in his career.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]Jordan wouldn't have played in 2014. He would have quit with a chance to 4-peat like he did 2 other times in his career.[/QUOTE]

ouch

:oldlol:

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]Titles in 2011, 2012, 2013, and more competitive 2007 / 2014.[/QUOTE]

Agreed

Definitely title in 2011 and 2013.. 2012 is only if its 1990-1992 MJ.

2007 they win a home game, and yeah, 2014 more competitive because he probably won't catch a cramp, hence win game 1...

Although you can't book on a 35/11 on 60% with huge shots in game 2... And after that the Spurs basically erupted and Heat role players gave in.

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]Agreed

Definitely title in 2011 and 2013.. 2012 is only if its 1990-1992 MJ.[/quote]
You could include 1993, 1996, and 1997. Don't be shy.

[quote=ArbitrayWater]2007 they win a home game, and yeah, 2014 more competitive because he probably won't catch a cramp, hence win game 1...[/quote]
Or go unaggressive for entire halves at a time.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH][B]You could include 1993, 1996, and 1997. Don't be shy. [/B]


Or go unaggressive for entire halves at a time.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

Hell no, post retirement MJ isn't winning shit in 2012.

2012 LeBron did everything better than 1996-1998 MJ and barely won, getting by with a top 5 game of all time.

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]:oldlol:

Hell no, post retirement MJ isn't winning shit in 2012.

2012 LeBron did everything better than 1996-1998 MJ and barely won, getting by with a top 5 game of all time.[/QUOTE]

No. Not even close.


96-98 MJ became a cerebral assassin (triple h) with his offensive repertoire. He didn't rely on athleticism and perfected the fade away. That was his move. LeBron doesn't even have a move.

Like posters above have said, MJ won't disappear for halves at a time. Or become passive aggressive. He's a killer. LeBron's a survivor, a great one at that though.


Not to mention it was the Thunder. A team that is not better than the five the Bulls beat in the 90s.

[QUOTE=ballinhun8]No. Not even close.


96-98 MJ became a cerebral assassin (triple h) with his offensive repertoire. He didn't rely on athleticism and perfected the fade away. That was his move. LeBron doesn't even have a move.

Like posters above have said, MJ won't disappear for halves at a time. Or become passive aggressive. He's a killer. LeBron's a survivor, a great one at that though.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I mean the major categories.. 2012 LeBron was a better scorer, playmaker, rebounder, defender...

That ship has sailed long ago.
You're not gonna be GOAT while losing multiple times in the finals, sorry.

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]Oh, I mean the major categories.. 2012 LeBron was a better [B]scorer[/B], playmaker, rebounder, [B]defender[/B]...[/QUOTE]
not even close

Invent a time machine.

[QUOTE=SexSymbol]not even close[/QUOTE]

2012 LeBron was not a better scorer and defender than 1996-1998 MJ?

:oldlol: :facepalm :roll: :banghead: :oldlol: :hammerhead:

[QUOTE=stalkerforlife]Invent a time machine.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol:

Sad but true.

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]2012 LeBron was not a better scorer and defender than 1996-1998 MJ?

:oldlol: :facepalm :roll: :banghead: :oldlol: :hammerhead:[/QUOTE]
Not a chance.
Scoring is obviously leagues beyond, let's expand on defense a little bit.
As MJ was still incredibly athletics and had a top 3 stamina ever, he was still a very good defender. I don't think he was that good in 98, age catched up to him, but LeBron doesn't engage in defense for more than 3-4 minutes a game, and that is very weak for such a physical specimen. Aside from 2011 ECF and 2012 he never really played defense.

[IMG]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8drckgKS41qko769o1_500.gif[/IMG]

Will neg, troll

Sooo delusional

[QUOTE=SexSymbol]Not a chance.
Scoring is obviously leagues beyond, let's expand on defense a little bit.
As MJ was still incredibly athletics and had a top 3 stamina ever, he was still a very good defender. I don't think he was that good in 98, age catched up to him, but LeBron [B]doesn't engage in defense for more than 3-4 minutes a game[/B], and that is very weak for such a physical specimen. [B]Aside from 2011 ECF and 2012 he never really played defense.[/B][/QUOTE]

Dude... MJ over LBJ now and forever, without a second thought. But you are just flat out wrong. It's not even a debate dude, you're just wrong.

Yup de doo

[QUOTE=Prometheus]Dude... MJ over LBJ now and forever, without a second thought. But you are just flat out wrong. It's not even a debate dude, you're just wrong.[/QUOTE]
I'm not, he seems disengaged on defense the last couple of years. Maybe the age is now catching up to him, maybe he doesn't have the ability, because his stance is usually awful, as defense is not just effort, it's also skill, but he is not a threat defensively for more than half a quarter

Ship sailed a few years ago, but there's still a good chance for top 3-5 all time status. No shame in that whatsoever. No need to compare him to MJ all the time when all that does is unfortunately blur his greatness. Let's just appreciate it.

[QUOTE=SexSymbol]I'm not, he seems disengaged on defense the last couple of years. Maybe the age is now catching up to him, maybe he doesn't have the ability, because his stance is usually awful, as defense is not just effort, it's also skill, but he is not a threat defensively for more than half a quarter[/QUOTE]

It's like you're talking about Kobe.. Dude stopped playing defense after '04 and even before that Phil openly critizised his D, calling it overrated :lol

[QUOTE=Meticode]He had a shell of former Shaq.[/QUOTE]
Old shell of himself but his old ass still got the job done with the stacked '06 Heat team. '10 Cavs were stacked too but he and LeBron couldn't win it all.

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]It's like you're talking about Kobe.. Dude stopped playing defense after '04 and even before that Phil openly critizised his D, calling it overrated :lol[/QUOTE]
Kobe was superb defensively in 08, good to great in 09, superb again in 2010 finals, but was a little underwhelming on that side throughout the year, probably mostly because of the knee issues.
Stepped it up again in 2012, but age catched up to him, from 2010 he really just gives his best on defense in spurts or against people he respects, it's understandable, with that mileage it's surprising he still has those spurts in him. Really, a magnificent example of the hardest working athlete in the world

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]:oldlol:

Hell no, post retirement MJ isn't winning shit in 2012.

2012 LeBron did everything better than 1996-1998 MJ and barely won, getting by with a top 5 game of all time.[/QUOTE]
2012 LeBron was not a better scorer than '96 - '98 Jordan. Everything else? Sure. But LeBron was 25 - 29, MJ was 33 - 35 years old.

Fadeaway MJ playing off the ball would also help maximize Wade, and Bosh as well. Not allowing them to rust up like the tin man due to inactivity in regards to LeBron ball dominance. Jordan would play efficient out of the post.

Your LeStanning ass left off 1993 Jordan though? The guy who put up 41 ppg 6 rpg 5 apg in the Finals to drag inferior talent than his competition to a three peat.

The exact opposite way LeBron didn't elevate his game to compensate for regression in talent around him this past Finals. Hell, even 1996 or 1997 Jordan with the 2011 - 2014 Heat is winning 2 or 3 chips.

I understand leaving '98 Jordan off. Even in a fantastic MVP season for a 35 year old. Wind, legs, age, caught up to him. Still quicker off the dribble, and triple threat than current Bron.

Get off dude's johnson.

I left off 1993 MJ because he slightly regressed... People said he went back to his chucking habits, and he had a poor showing in the ECF, and that same performance in 2012 would in no way result in a win... Reasonable, don't you think?

Okay, so you're telling me, 1996-1998 MJ is a better scorer than ANY LeBron (version) of his career?

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]I left off 1993 MJ because he slightly regressed... People said he went back to his chucking habits, and he had a poor showing in the ECF, and that same performance in 2012 would in no way result in a win... Reasonable, don't you think?[/quote]
He played a superior defense than the 2012 Celtics with Riley's '93 Knicks. A superior team period that won 60+ games.

And he still played a great floor game in the ECF considering the circumstances, he didn't shoot well. Bad wrist, great defense. Still put up the necessary volume to carry the Bulls offense. The next series he went completely APE shit.

LeBron shot like shit for the vast majority of the 2012 playoffs. Especially compared to his averages in the regular season. Didn't shoot well in the Finals, either.

There was no significant regression in 1993. You mean to tell me 1993 Jordan on the 2011 - 2014 Heat couldn't win 3 rings? You're a joke.

[quote=ArbirtrayWater]Okay, so you're telling me, 1996-1998 MJ is a better scorer than ANY LeBron (version) of his career?[/QUOTE]
YES

[QUOTE=K Xerxes]Ship sailed a few years ago, but there's still a good chance for top 3-5 all time status. No shame in that whatsoever. No need to compare him to MJ all the time when all that does is unfortunately blur his greatness. Let's just appreciate it.[/QUOTE]

This... this is it. If there is one message that I try to get across to people on ISH, it is exactly this. I'm a huge LeBron fan, but he is neither now nor is he ever going to challenge the supremacy of Michael Jordan. It would be so much more fun to enjoy his career as a fan if everyone would just let it go.

[QUOTE=Partizan]Hey!
Didn't post here in a while, but last couple of days I've been thinking about something...

Is there any chance that LeBron will be accepted by basketball fans as the GOAT when it all set and done? By accepted I mean basically being what is Jordan right now. ( Considered the GOAT by most of objective bball fans).

For me, I don't really see it happening, but if he would for example, win something like 5 championships with the Cavaliers in a dominant fashion, without 2011 finals like moments, with all the MVPs he is gonna get, I guess he could be considered for a GOAT?

Do you agree? What do you personally think it would take for him to get to that level, and do you find it possible? :)[/QUOTE]
I think he'd have to build a time machine and start his career over on a different organization. He's got a few years before he declines. Little to no chance he cracks top 7

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]He played a superior defense than the 2012 Celtics with Riley's '93 Knicks. A superior team period that won 60+ games.

And he still played a great floor game in the ECF considering the circumstances, he didn't shoot well. Bad wrist, great defense. Still put up the necessary volume to carry the Bulls offense. The next series he went completely APE shit.

LeBron shot like shit for the vast majority of the 2012 playoffs. Especially compared to his averages in the regular season. Didn't shoot well in the Finals, either.

There was no significant regression in 1993. You mean to tell me 1993 Jordan on the 2011 - 2014 Heat couldn't win 3 rings? You're a joke.


YES[/QUOTE]

No, no... 2012 LeBron is twice the scorer 1996-1998 MJ is, get real.

Nope, I said 1993 MJ MIGHT win in 2012.. Probably not, though.

He isn't replicating LeBron's Game 6

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]No, no... 2012 LeBron is twice the scorer 1996-1998 MJ is, get real.[/quote]
LOL WHAT ?!

MJ's teams were busy curb stomping the competition for much of the 2nd three peat. He still in his mid 30s was hovering around 30 ppg playing off the ball, in a non ball dominant capacity. He did all his damage basically exclusively off jump shots, mid range, and post game.

LeBron got so many baskets in the 2011 - 2013 era off padding his FG% off transition buckets, easy run outs and dunks. MJ was murdering people in his mid 30's against a set half court defense. Bron struggles with that now in his absolute peak / prime at times.

See 2013 Finals, just letting him shoot open shots for proof. Yes, even late 90s Jordan is a better SCORER than LeBron.

[quote=ArbitraryWater]Nope, I said 1993 MJ MIGHT win in 2012.. Probably not, though.[/quote]
You have GOT to be kidding me. LeBron had that game 6 scoring binge in Boston by attacking the basket, and having one of his best games EVER from mid range with Rajon Rondo seemingly guarding him for many possessions.

You're telling me 1993 MJ, who was the strongest he ever was in the first three peat, had the skill / jumper / mid range of fadeaway Jordan, yet the versatility in his offensive game to still attack the bucket AT WILL isn't going to destroy:

Rondo in the post, or from mid range?
Pietrus off the dribble?
Old Pierce off the dribble?

MJ made it look easy because he was playing chess, when Bron's simple ass scoring wise plays checkers. Consistently trying to force round pegs into square holes.

Which is why old Jason Kidd locked him up. '93 MJ can replicate LeBron's 2012 run easily. Hell, Jordan's '93 numbers that post season blow Bron's out the water.

30 ppg 10 rpg 6 apg
35 ppg 7 rpg (@ SG) 6 apg (not facilitator)

[quote=ArbitraryWater]He isn't replicating LeBron's Game 6[/QUOTE]
The rebounds? Arbitrary. Unless the majority of them were offensive. Which even old Jordan could do when his team needed it to grind out. See game 7 v.s. Pacers.

Or 45 points? Because he did that in his final game as a Bull @ age 35. Sit down Gloria, go watch some Jordan footage and learn before you spout off at the mouth sounding like a retard.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]LOL WHAT ?!

MJ's teams were busy curb stomping the competition for much of the 2nd three peat. He still in his mid 30s was hovering around 30 ppg playing off the ball, in a non ball dominant capacity. He did all his damage basically exclusively off jump shots, mid range, and post game.

[B]LeBron got so many baskets in the 2011 - 2013 era off padding his FG% off transition buckets, easy run outs and dunks. MJ was murdering people in his mid 30's against a set half court defense. Bron struggles with that now in his absolute peak / prime at times.[/B]

See 2013 Finals, just letting him shoot open shots for proof. Yes, even late 90s Jordan is a better SCORER than LeBron.


You have GOT to be kidding me. LeBron had that game 6 scoring binge in Boston by attacking the basket, and having one of his best games EVER from mid range with Rajon Rondo seemingly guarding him for many possessions.

You're telling me 1993 MJ, who was the strongest he ever was in the first three peat, had the skill / jumper / mid range of fadeaway Jordan, yet the versatility in his offensive game to still attack the bucket AT WILL isn't going to destroy:

Rondo in the post, or from mid range?
Pietrus off the dribble?
Old Pierce off the dribble?

MJ made it look easy because he was playing chess, when Bron's simple ass scoring wise plays checkers. Consistently trying to force round pegs into square holes.

Which is why old Jason Kidd locked him up. '93 MJ can replicate LeBron's 2012 run easily. Hell, Jordan's '93 numbers that post season blow Bron's out the water.

30 ppg 10 rpg 6 apg
35 ppg 7 rpg (@ SG) 6 apg (not facilitator)

[B]
The rebounds? Or 45 points? Because he did that in his final game as a Bull @ age 35.[/B][/QUOTE]

Bolded the funniest parts...

LeBron can "struggle" and he's still more efficient than 1996-1998 MJ.. Stop the hyperbole. 1996-1998 MJ shot over 50% ONCE in all his 3 combined finals appearances... This wasn't the godly 1991-1993 version. Get real.

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]He isn't replicating LeBron's Game 6[/QUOTE]
So Jordan, who averaged 41/9/6/2/1 on 51% shooting over 6 games in the finals against a better team than the '12 Celtics isn't getting past the '12 Celtics? He had 4 straight 40+ point games that series with a 55-point game in there :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Milbuck]So Jordan, who averaged 41/9/6/2/1 on 51% shooting over 6 games in the finals against a better team than the '12 Celtics isn't getting past the '12 Celtics?[/QUOTE]

AGAIN :facepalm

I said if he brings the same ECF performance from 1993 in 2012, he will LOSE.

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]AGAIN :facepalm

I said if he brings the same ECF performance from 1993 in 2012, he will LOSE.[/QUOTE]
And why are we to assume that? Are the 2012 Celtics even close to the 1993 Knicks?...who finished 60-22 and had the #1 defense, with Ewing, who was significantly better than anyone on the Celtics.

This thread again

[IMG]http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/leaving-now-grandpa-simpsons.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]AGAIN :facepalm

I said if he brings the same ECF performance from 1993 in 2012, he will LOSE.[/QUOTE]
He was facing a BETTER TEAM and BETTER DEFENSE than the 2012 Celtics.

You're speaking like someone who didn't watch the guy actually play. We're talking about MJ's abilities in 1993 on the 2012 Heat v.s. the 2012 Celtics.

He is going to absolutely SLAUGHTER that old AF Celtics team, and it isn't going to take 7 games to do it.

He'd have given them 45 in game 1 and had the Celtic crew shook in fear. '93 MJ is destroying Rondo, Pietrus, and old ass Pierce.

How do you want it?

Off the dribble?
In the post?
Mid range jumper?
Sag, and give him the 3?

LMAO @ '93 MJ not being able to put up a performance the caliber of Bron's game 6. He did it in that very series down 1 - 2 v.s. the Knicks putting up 54. All on LONG jumpers.