Dunking Data For 1988-1993: MJ is the Goat In-Game Dunker for Wing Players

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]The funny thing is he's right. I've actually noticed that. Not just with Bron either- centers don't really challenge dunks like they use to. Nowadays they either run away (or are forced to because of the 3 sec rule), try to take a charge, or stand in place with their hands in the air like that's going to do something. Guys like Zo and Ewing were in a lot of posters because they actually tried challenging/blocking dunks. Sometimes it didn't work out for them but most of the time they either blocked or altered shot/dunk attempts at the rim. Their blocking #s are a testament to that.

Guys are afraid of being dunked on now, but before it was accepted as part of the game.[/QUOTE]

Oh I know he's right. I've seen everything you state above, players running away, or trying to be cute taking charges. If you have elite athleticism/slashing ability, there's little impeding you from scoring in the paint nowadays once you get there. MJ, one of the GOAT slashers and creative finishers around the rim of all-time, would have a field day today. I mean, this is a guy who attacked the rim relentlessly in his prime, often with 2-3 guys lunging at him to protect the rim. Imagine him flying down the lane today to see todays 'shotblockers' actually moving out of the way.

[QUOTE=fpliii]
This is a bit of a leap, and it's tough for me to decide how I feel about it. It's a distinct possibility, but it's not the only one. As eliteballer mentioned, it's possible that the dunk became more prevalent. Maybe there are a few reasons:

1) More players wanted to be like Mike, and dunked more often.
2) Players became more athletic over time, so dunks became more common.
3) For a number of reasons, layups could be becoming less common, and dunks more common.
[/QUOTE]
The increased athleticism over time argument holds no water because it doesn't explain such a large discrepancy (1 dunk every 29 shots compared to 1 dunk every 21 shots).. Nor is it necessarily true - Hibbert is not an upgrade over Shaq.... Paul George not an upgrade over Pippen... It also doesn't compensate for how players are shorter now than they were in previous eras.

The prevalence argument is one of the weaker options that we have to explain how the difficulty of dunking has changed over the years.... Dr. J, David Thompson, Spud Webb, Darryl Griffith (Dr. Dunk), Dominique, and Daryl Dawkins all popularized the dunk long before MJ did.

Also, the brief increase in the FGA/Dunk stat (difficulty of dunking) in 2000 back to its 1991 levels also refutes the prevalence idea... It's also noteworthy that the FGA/Dunk stat took a sharp and [I]permanent[/I] decline in 1992 - so this must have been the year when the dunk became more prevalent all of a sudden, which seems a little random..

The data is pretty conclusive regarding the difficulty of dunking imo.. I don't know any other way to look at the FGA/Dunk stat.

[I]Like, why did dunking seem to become permanently easier in 1992?...
[/I]
The FGA/Dunk stat (difficulty of dunking) dropped off significantly in 1992, and never really came back, other than a brief jump in 2000, when the difficulty of dunking spiked up for one year back to levels it was at in the late 80's/early 90's.

[I]And why did it spike up that one year in 2000 like it was 1991 all over again?
[/I]
I think these are good questions to ask... I looked into 1992 and couldn't find any rule changes to explain the sharp increase in the FGA/Dunk stat... But one theory I came up with for why dunking got easier in 1992 is that the Bulls had won in 1991 by using superior spacing via the triangle.. One thing i learned from the triangle is that when the ball is fed to the post, the passer and anyone else on that side cuts through and lets the post guy do his thing.... Maybe everyone else learned this too (along with other things about the triangle) and this became commonplace throughout the league in 1992, which gave every team better spacing from that point forward?

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall] Lebron could never DREAM of doing a dunk like this, or getting this kind of air/explosion, off such a quick small hop step:

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Over_Rony_Seikaly_best_7eaa9998a5618610963252b80d69182b.gif[/IMG]

Or dunking on two big men off a quick hop step like this at the 14:27 mark:

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiNTTvD8yEk#t=14m27s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiNTTvD8yEk#t=14m27s[/URL]

No way.[/QUOTE]

Oh he couldn't?:oldlol: I swear it's like some of fools have never watched anyone besides Jordan.

He gets even more lift than Jordan on this dunk:[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAyKv5UznxU[/url]

and here's your hop step:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=fpliii]I agree that MJ has dunked on a ton of guys, and as I said above, I think he was the superior dunker in general.

I was just saying that if we want to definitively prove one way or another anything about the degree of difficulty in dunking, we need to watch a ton of each of their dunks from the years we're comparing (3ball suggested 88 and 09), and break down the coverage, and compare how each guy got to the hoop.[/QUOTE]
Also, what will looking at a bunch of film do?... We already know that Lebron's dunks are less contested.

Don't we have enough film to determine that much?.. All of Lebron's dunks in the 2014 season are posted in the OP..

Here are Lebron's dunks from the 2013 season... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6abQGCtkTg[/url]...

What am i missing here?... they are all wide open again!!.. :coleman:

[QUOTE]
I like how you conveniently ignored my comment about Jordan traveling. He moves BOTH feet before his dribble touches the ground on all of them.

Kobe can do those dunks all day:[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sizsclc7sK8[/url] except he adds more flavor like a windmill.

Kobe is a better dunker: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvWy9liwC7U[/url][/QUOTE]

:pimp:

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Oh he couldn't?:oldlol: I swear it's like some of fools have never watched anyone besides Jordan.

He gets even more lift than Jordan on this dunk:[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAyKv5UznxU[/url]

and here's your hop step:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Waiting Loki:coleman:

another wide open dunk due to the spacing...

why has this thread been soiled and littered with GIFs of open, uncontested dunks?

:biggums:

[QUOTE=3ball]Also, what will looking at a bunch of film do?... We already know that Lebron's dunks are less contested.

Don't we have enough film to determine that much?.. All of Lebron's dunks in the 2014 season are posted in the OP..

Here are Lebron's dunks from the 2013 season... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6abQGCtkTg[/url]...

What am i missing here?... they are all wide open again!!.. :coleman:[/QUOTE]
Just to be sure about things. There are different components of coverage, right?

1) What a guy's facing before he gets the ball.
2) How a guy s played before he begins to drive.
3) Degree of resistance met en route to the hole.
4) How he meets the defender at the rim.

Since you'd suggested 88 and 09 earlier in the thread, watching footage from those seasons of MJ and LeBron dunking respectively could help us answer those questions.

You said you selected those years since they were at the same age, and since you found some LeBron dunks for 13 and 14, we should look at MJ at the corresponding ages, 92 and 93 to remain consistent.

[QUOTE=3ball]another wide open dunk due to the spacing...

why has this thread been soiled and littered with GIFs of open, uncontested dunks?

:biggums:[/QUOTE]

It was contested...look at the two guys right in front of him. he just gets up too fast. Also checkout the youtube link to the James Johnson dunk. Stop your willful blindness.

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Oh he couldn't?:oldlol: I swear it's like some of fools have never watched anyone besides Jordan.

He gets even more lift than Jordan on this dunk:[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAyKv5UznxU[/url]

and here's your hop step:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

:lol

You just responded to a gif of Jordan driving against a hand checking defender and jamming over a waiting 6'11" Center who actually challenged his dunk attempt with a vid of Bron bee-lining untouched to the basket with no help waiting for him? And the gif you posted shows LeBron, once again, bee-lining to the basket from the 3 point line and dunking with absolutely no resistance or challenge from the D. Dude literally saw no defense there, guys were just standing there looking at him.

Can you seriously not see the differences? :confusedshrug:

Again though 3ball - as I've said, I didn't start watching until 92-93. While I've watched a lot of MJ after the fact from earlier seasons, I can't comment definitively. As such, it's imperative for me to watch as much footage as possible before forming an opinion with which I'm comfortable. :D

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]:lol

You just responded to a gif of Jordan driving against a hand checking defender and jamming over a waiting 6'11" Center who actually challenged his dunk attempt with a vid of Bron bee-lining untouched to the basket with no help waiting for him? And the gif you posted shows LeBron, once again, bee-lining to the basket from the 3 point line and dunking with absolutely no resistance or challenge from the D. Dude literally saw no defense there, guys were just standing there looking at him.

Can you seriously not see the differences? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

No, fool. I was using the gif to respond to his claim that LeBron can't dunk off a hop step.

Click on the youtube link for a reply to the Jordan Heat dunk....

[QUOTE=eliteballer]No, fool. I was using the gif to respond to his claim that LeBron can't dunk off a hop step.

Click on the youtube link for a reply to the Jordan Heat dunk....[/QUOTE]

I did click on the link. It's LeBron going to the basket untouched because the defense is handicapped and can't physically impede his progress and absolutely no help defense whatsoever which = easy dunk. Again, can you not see how that's different from Jordan's defender putting hands on him and a 6'11" Center camped out in the paint waiting to challenge his dunk attempt? :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]I did click on the link. It's LeBron going to the basket untouched because the defense is handicapped and can't physically impede his progress and absolutely no help defense whatsoever which = easy dunk. Again, can you not see how that's different from Jordan's defender putting hands on him and a 6'11" Center camped out in the paint waiting to challenge his dunk attempt? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

LeBron explodes past his defender who can't recover. Jordan's barely touches him and doesn't impede him at all, he literally just touches him after Jordan's already past him.

[QUOTE=fpliii]Just to be sure about things. There are different components of coverage, right?

1) What a guy's facing before he gets the ball.
2) How a guy s played before he begins to drive.
3) Degree of resistance met en route to the hole.
4) How he meets the defender at the rim.

Since you'd suggested 88 and 09 earlier in the thread, watching footage from those seasons of MJ and LeBron dunking respectively could help us answer those questions.

You said you selected those years since they were at the same age, and since you found some LeBron dunks for 13 and 14, we should look at MJ at the corresponding ages, 92 and 93 to remain consistent.[/QUOTE]
What difference does 1-4 make above in evaluating the FGA/Dunk stat?

The FGA/Dunk stat shows what the league is doing as a whole - this is how many advanced stats are used - they compare what the player does to what the league does as a whole.

So when comparing the defensive rating of teams in different eras, the league-wide average defensive rating is relevant to see how each team performed compared to what the rest of the league was doing... the FGA/Dunk stat accomplishes this same objective when compared to raw dunk stats.

Also, are you saying that the coverage Lebron faces - with the lower level of physicality that is allowed and the spacing - is tougher than what Jordan faced?

So why are all of Lebron's dunks wide open then?

Did you look at the tape for the 2013 and the 2014 season?... Lebron's dunks REALLY ARE open and uncontested... I'm not making that up... the way you are talking, it's like you aren't seeing the same wide open dunks and open space that i do.

Do you really want to compare the double teams, triple teams, lack of spacing and high level of physicality Jordan faced versus the Pistons, Knicks, and Seattle, to what Lebron faces?... One guy has room to operate, the other guy doesn't.. This isn't an issue that Lebron is going to come out on ahead on.

[QUOTE=eliteballer]LeBron explodes past his defender who can't recover. Jordan's barely touches him and doesn't impede him at all, he literally just touches him after Jordan's already past him.[/QUOTE]

Even if that's true, once Jordan gets past his man he has a center camped out in the lane waiting for him who goes for the block on the shot attempt. When LeBron gets past Johnson... who came to help? Was Noah waiting for him at the basket to challenge his shot and help his teammate? Why not?

[QUOTE=3ball]What difference does 1-4 make above in evaluating the FGA/Dunk stat?

The FGA/Dunk stat shows what the league is doing as a whole - this is how many advanced stats are used - they compare what the player does to what the league does as a whole.

So when comparing the defensive rating of teams in different eras, the league-wide average defensive rating is relevant to see how each team performed compared to what the rest of the league was doing... the FGA/Dunk stat accomplishes this same objective when compared to raw dunk stats.

Also, are you saying that the coverage Lebron faces - with the lower level of physicality that is allowed and the spacing - is tougher than what Jordan faced?

So why are all of Lebron's dunks wide open then?

Did you look at the tape for the 2013 and the 2014 season???... Lebron's dunks REALLY ARE open and uncontested... I'm not making that up... the way you are talking, it's like you aren't seeing the same wide open dunks and open space that i do.

Do you really want to compare the double teams, triple teams, lack of spacing and high level of physicality Jordan faced versus the Pistons, Knicks, and Seattle, to what Lebron faces?... One guy has room to operate, the other guy doesn't.. This isn't an issue that Lebron is going to come out on ahead on.[/QUOTE]
I want to be very precise and confident in our analysis.

As I've said plenty of times, I can't stand LeBron, and prefer watching MJ. I also think MJ is the superior dunker. But I want to be very confident that we're correct, not leaving room for error.

We very likely may reach the same conclusion, but there's no downside to doing extensive, detailed analysis (except the time spent of course, but time spent watching ball is time well spent IMO).

[QUOTE=eliteballer]It was contested...look at the two guys right in front of him. he just gets up too fast. Also checkout the youtube link to the James Johnson dunk. Stop your willful blindness.[/QUOTE]
Reach-ins and fly-bys don't count..

Chest-to-chest dunks are what i've been posting of Jordan... one after another amongst congestion.

How is it fair that you get to counter with weak fly-bys and reach-ins amongst great spacing?

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Even if that's true, once Jordan gets past his man he has a center camped out in the lane waiting for him who goes for the block on the shot attempt. When LeBron gets past Johnson... who came to help? Was Noah waiting for him at the basket to challenge his shot and help his teammate? Why not?[/QUOTE]

Noah got boxed out by Varaejo. It's basketball, it happens just like every play is different, just like Oakley, Ho Grant, Rodman blocked out guys for Jordan. Nitpicking every aspect of the play isn't doing anything. The assertion was LeBron couldn't explode like that off a short dribble, he did, to an even greater degree.

[QUOTE=3ball]Reach-ins and fly-bys don't count..

Chest-to-chest dunks are what i've been posting of Jordan... one after another amongst congestion.

How is it fair that you get to counter with weak fly-bys and reach-ins amongst great spacing?[/QUOTE]

:oldlol: You've been posting all kinds of dunks. The statistic you cited in the Op doesn't discriminate what TYPE of dunks they are.

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Noah got boxed out by Varaejo. It's basketball, it happens just like every play is different, just like Oakley, Ho Grant, Rodman blocked out guys for Jordan. Nitpicking every aspect of the play isn't doing anything. The assertion was LeBron couldn't explode like that off a short dribble, [B]he did, to an even greater degree.[/B][/QUOTE]

Except he [I]clearly[/I] didn't and it was against no resistance whatsoever. Surely, you can find a better gif or video.

Show me ONE instance like this where Bron or any player from this era has to beat 2 doubles/trap before running into a 7 ft shot blocker who actually challenges his dunk attempt at the rim:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif[/IMG]

I mean with advanced defense being what it is nowadays, this must go on all the time. I have no idea why you keep posting gifs of uncontested dunks where Bron bee-lines unimpeded to the basket (or at best him dunking over midgets or guys trying to take charges) :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Oh he couldn't?:oldlol: I swear it's like some of fools have never watched anyone besides Jordan.

He gets even more lift than Jordan on this dunk:[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAyKv5UznxU[/url]

and here's your hop step:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

the big differce is one one play defence against leflop :banana:
everyone is prefer looking him dunk than challenge leflop's shot: pathetic defence facepalm

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Waiting Loki:coleman:[/QUOTE]

I just see how pathetic defence by pistons :banana:

[QUOTE=eliteballer]LeBron explodes past his defender who can't recover. Jordan's barely touches him and doesn't impede him at all, he literally just touches him after Jordan's already past him.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="7"]LEBRON EXPLODES PAST THEM :roll: THE FACT IS HIS OPPENENT IS NOT EVEN TRYING TO DO ANYTHING TO CONTEST HIM,IT JUST SHOW HOW PATHETIC DEFENCE IN THIS ERA :banana: [/SIZE]

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Except he [I]clearly[/I] didn't and it was against no resistance whatsoever. Surely, you can find a better gif or video.

Show me ONE instance like this where Bron or any player from this era has to beat 2 doubles/trap before running into a 7 ft shot blocker who actually challenges his dunk attempt at the rim:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif[/IMG]

I mean with advanced defense being what it is nowadays, this must go on all the time. I have no idea why you keep posting gifs of uncontested dunks where Bron bee-lines unimpeded to the basket (or at best him dunking over midgets or guys trying to take charges) :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]


eliteballer, you on the clock.

tick-tock, tick-tock...

[QUOTE=fpliii]I want to be very precise and confident in our analysis.

As I've said plenty of times, I can't stand LeBron, and prefer watching MJ. I also think MJ is the superior dunker. But I want to be very confident that we're correct, not leaving room for error.

We very likely may reach the same conclusion, but there's no downside to doing extensive, detailed analysis (except the time spent of course, but time spent watching ball is time well spent IMO).[/QUOTE]
It would be cool to watch a game where the 3-point line was removed... The entire game would be more compacted.... why would anyone even stand out far from the basket at all?... why take a further distance shot with with no extra compensation (extra point) to do so?

No need for scrambling schemes like strong-side floods or weak-side whatevers because those are already built into the game - the defenders don't need to flood over to a certain side because they are already there - everyone was in close proximity to everyone.

Why would a strong side flood be necessary here???

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Paint_Congestion_in_Wilts_Era__e5cc5559f5ecbd15aefec46a22dd4b99.gif[/IMG]


or here?

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Eurostep_5cc9d1bfc6064cfecf8deaef003568c2.gif[/IMG]


The scrambling schemes are only needed in today's game BECAUSE of the 3-point shooting, floor-spacing, defensive 3 seconds and restrictions on hand-checking.... they are necessary BECAUSE defenders aren't allowed in the paint anymore and BECAUSE of the spacing... without these things, the schemes are not needed.. this concept seems very difficult for many hoops people to understand.
.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]The funny thing is he's right. I've actually noticed that. Not just with Bron either- centers don't really challenge dunks like they use to. Nowadays they either run away (or are forced to because of the 3 sec rule), try to take a charge, or stand in place with their hands in the air like that's going to do something. Guys like Zo and Ewing were in a lot of posters because they actually tried challenging/blocking dunks. Sometimes it didn't work out for them but most of the time they either blocked or altered shot/dunk attempts at the rim. Their blocking #s are a testament to that.

Guys are afraid of being dunked on now, but before it was accepted as part of the game.[/QUOTE]


I never said they don't challenge LBJ at the rim. I said they often get out the way on his dunks but they challenge his layups. The things I find odd is that the same people who get out the way on a Lebron dunk will still try blocking dunk from Durant, Paul George and many others. LBJ is the only one that causes dudes to run in fear:oldlol: The people that actually do challenge his dunks are his height or shorter:biggums:

[img]http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/967910/bron.gif[/img]

[QUOTE=eliteballer]
and here's your hop step:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
What I see here is an open dunk that Lebron got because[B] floor-spreaders spaced the floor for him in the corner (rashard lewis) and out top (ray allen)[/B], which gave him the space he needed to come down the lane unchallenged by anyone other than a feeble reach-in attempt by white dude #33 on the Pistons.
.

[QUOTE=Hoopz2332]I never said they don't challenge LBJ at the rim. I said they often get out the way on his dunks but they challenge his layups.[/QUOTE]

And the paint and spacing on Jordan era layups was far worse. Look at the Houdini shit Jordan had to pull on a nightly basis just to get a layup to drop, forget dunks:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1FsD9Y7NfY[/url]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UC-BBSLgS8[/url]

[IMG]http://www.wikitree.co.kr/webdata/editor/201401/02/img_20140102160727_28d8fcda.gif[/IMG]

Life is much easier for perimeter players today.

Lebron gets 3-point shooting floor-spreaders and defensive 3 seconds.. and doesn't have to deal with a shot-blocking big at the rim.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]
Life is much easier for perimeter players today.[/QUOTE]

Ehh, it's just different. Teams now put far more emphasis on defending the 3 and less on protecting the rim. Someone like Wade would probably find it harder to score back then, but good three point shooters like Durant/Curry would feast on the 3-defense of the 80s/90s.

What I see here is Lebron getting spacing from 3-point shooters Rashard Lewis and Ray Allen so he gets a wide open dunk... and there is no big man waiting to shot-block because of defensive 3 seconds and floor-spacing.

And of course, this is about the furthest thing from chest-to-chest as you can get.

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif[/IMG]


Otoh, a stark contrast to virtually everything just said above.. Do you see any 3-point-shooting floor spreaders??... so no spacing, to go along with no defensive 3 seconds.... and WITH a shot-blocking big waiting at the rim.

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/ed34bb98401bb69ad56a198f948f25b5.gif[/IMG]

Also, the scrambling schemes used today to cover the extra ground are only necessary to COMPENSATE for the fact that defenders can't go in the paint anymore.

Like, in order to MAKE UP for the fact that defenders have to cover more ground due to 3-point shooting and can't go in the paint anymore, today's defenses need scrambling schemes that they didn't previously need.

Does that make today's defenses more effective at contesting shots?... Absolutely not... it just makes them capable of covering the extra ground and defending without going in the paint for more than 3 seconds...

But back when they didn't have to cover that extra ground and were allowed to stay in the paint indefinitely, they didn't need the scrambling schemes, and contested shots a lot better.

The NBA gave offenses some advantages (defensive 3 seconds, no hand-checking, and the 3-point shot which began to be used), so the defense naturally has to compensate... but without the NBA granting offenses those advantages, the defense doesn't need to compensate.
.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]Ehh, it's just different. Teams now put far more emphasis on defending the 3 and less on protecting the rim.[/QUOTE]

Yet as the OP showed, guys are getting more dunks now and we know it's easier for guys to get into the paint and have less contested shots AND teams are shooting 22 3s per game. A guy like Curry is getting 8 attempts per game, Harden 7, even a big like Love is getting 6ish per game.

In fact, the highest league wide eFG% in league History happened this past season, the second highest was last season. Actually, the only none mid 2000s+ teams in the top 10 are the 2 seasons in the mid 90s where the 3 pt line was shortened and I think '83-'84.

[QUOTE]Someone like Wade would probably find it harder to score back then, but good three point shooters like Durant/Curry would feast on the 3-defense of the 80s/90s.[/QUOTE]

Funny, I think it's the opposite :lol

Wade has the skills and athleticism to get to the basket (which is why when healthy he was the best among his peers against top tier defenses) and he has a mid range game. Doesn't rely on the 3 (neither did Jordan and neither does Tony Parker, how many finals appearances and championships do they have between them?). I think a guy like Curry or Harden is a product of his era. Harden would not be waltzing into the lane to draw fouls in bulk like he does now. And if you watch tape of perimeter defense in the lates 80s-90s, you'll notice that many time hand checking forced players to back down starting at the half court line. It's much easier now for a guy like Curry to just dribble up untouched and launch as many shots as his heart desires.

Back in the day, in order to get a guy like Reggie Miller an open shot you'd have to run multiple screens for him. Now guys have all the space in the world to operate, hence why they're chucking 3s like it's going out of business.

In today's game, the offense has the advantage (spacing, defensive 3 seconds, no hand-checking) and the defense has to compensate (scrambling schemes that weren't previously necessary).

In previous eras, the defense had the advantage (no spacing, no defensive 3 seconds, hand-checking), so the offense had to compensate (positions other than PG were good at creating their own shot).

With the defense having the advantage in previous eras via the ability to hand-check, coupled with no spacing and no defensive 3 seconds, it shouldn't be surprising that dunks were a lot harder to come by.
.

[QUOTE=3ball]in today's game, the offense has the advantage (spacing, defensive 3 seconds, no hand-checking) and the defense has to compensate (scrambling schemes that weren't previously necessary).

in previous eras, the defense had the advantage (no spacing, no defensive 3 seconds, hand-checking), so the offense had to compensate (positions other than PG were good at creating their own shot... different types of players were developed that had individual-unique offensive ability to mitigate a paint-camping defense - magic, kareem, mcadoo, gervin, dantley, english, bird - guys with individually unique offensive ability).
.[/QUOTE]

Even back then, they were using many schemes/methods that were technically illegal as documented ere:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=345176[/url]

Even with the gif of the Jordan dunk on the Heat/Seikaly, here's the entire play from the inbounds (awful quality :oldlol: ):

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CE2hU-OaIo[/url]

How does the commentator characterize the defensive scheme the Heat are employing?

[QUOTE=fpliii]I want to be very precise and confident in our analysis.

As I've said plenty of times, I can't stand LeBron, and prefer watching MJ. I also think MJ is the superior dunker. But I want to be very confident that we're correct, not leaving room for error.

We very likely may reach the same conclusion, but there's no downside to doing extensive, detailed analysis (except the time spent of course, but time spent watching ball is time well spent IMO).[/QUOTE]
What was the point in getting the numbers if once we get them, you are going to say they don't mean anything?

Are you seriously saying that the numbers aren't good because the dunk wasn't prevalent until Jordan started doing it?

How do you explain why dunking all of a sudden got harder again in 2000?.. did players get unathletic again or did the dunk become unpopular again?

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Even back then, they were using many schemes/methods that were technically illegal as documented ere:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=345176[/url]

Even with the gif of the Jordan dunk on the Heat/Seikaly, here's the entire play from the inbounds (awful quality :oldlol: ):

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CE2hU-OaIo[/url]

How does the commentator characterize the defensive scheme the Heat are employing?[/QUOTE]
Awesome finds... just case in point after case in point..

"Bulls are in a 2-2-1 zone defense here..." Not that playing a zone is an advantage... but regardless, they did that back then too anyway.
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[QUOTE=DonDadda59]

Funny, I think it's the opposite :lol

Wade has the skills and athleticism to get to the basket (which is why when healthy he was the best among his peers against top tier defenses) and he has a mid range game. Doesn't rely on the 3 (neither did Jordan and neither does Tony Parker, how many finals appearances and championships do they have between them?). I think a guy like Curry or Harden is a product of his era. Harden would not be waltzing into the lane to draw fouls in bulk like he does now. And if you watch tape of perimeter defense in the lates 80s-90s, you'll notice that many time hand checking forced players to back down starting at the half court line. It's much easier now for a guy like Curry to just dribble up untouched and launch as many shots as his heart desires.

Back in the day, in order to get a guy like Reggie Miller an open shot you'd have to run multiple screens for him. Now guys have all the space in the world to operate, hence why they're chucking 3s like it's going out of business.[/QUOTE]

If slashing to them was harder then than it is now, then players who score a lot by slashing to the rim would struggle more in the 90s than they would now.

If teams today defend the 3 better than they did back then, then players who score a lot of points off 3s will struggle more today that they would back in the 90s.

That's all I really meant.

[QUOTE=3ball]What was the point in getting the numbers if once we get them, you are going to say they don't mean anything?

Are you seriously saying that the numbers aren't good because the dunk wasn't prevalent until Jordan started doing it?

How do you explain why dunking all of a sudden got harder again in 2000?.. did players get unathletic again or did the dunk become unpopular again?[/QUOTE]
They do mean something, they tell us a good deal.

The numbers tell us *what* happened, but not *why*. It's up to us to do detailed analysis to explain the numbers.

The prevalence of the dunk was one of the possibilities.

With regards to 2000, I'm not sure if it was noise in the data, something due to rules, or whatever else.

As I said though, I don't like dealing in hypotheticals. Now that we have the dunking data, we can use that as a starting point for our investigation.

[QUOTE=fpliii]They do mean something, they tell us a good deal.

The numbers tell us *what* happened, but not *why*. It's up to us to do detailed analysis to explain the numbers.

The prevalence of the dunk was one of the possibilities.

With regards to 2000, I'm not sure if it was noise in the data, something due to rules, or whatever else.

As I said though, I don't like dealing in hypotheticals. Now that we have the dunking data, we can use that as a starting point for our investigation.[/QUOTE]
So the options for why the FGA/Dunk stat declined are:

1) The dunk was not prevalent until 1992

2) Players became athletic in 1992

3) 1 and 2 above