Coach Thibbs: "When Jordan was playing..."

[QUOTE=jzek]

OK, how many would LeBron score against the same defense? :confusedshrug:

[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/c33b0be11565b94476f8e7a7e9902217.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/832a26d5ea87f83465b92fe12837530b.gif[/IMG]

if lebron was dumped back into a previous era, his stats might be less, but the main difference would be the efficiency... right now, lebron uses the spacing to ensure that most of his shots are 3-pointers or clean at-rim looks.

but in a no-spacing environment where he doesn't have his floor-spreaders spacing the floor for him and defenders were camping in the lane, he'd have to hoist up a much higher proportion of contested mid-range shots (like the jordan gif above), which are his least favorite shot... and the banging he would need to do in the paint would be dimensions harder than what he deals with now.
.

nice article

some of those videos would make lazarus cry

it's dumb to ponder how jordan would do today, when lesser players do better than he ever did: wade averaged 33.2 ppg on 66% TS against Thibb's Celtics defense in 2010 playoffs, Durant got 30 ppg on 65% TS against the Spurs, and others have similar ridiculous percentages against today's spaced out defenses - it is impossible for a defense to be good if players can get that type of shooting percentage.

Jordan never got those percentages against any playoff team, and was NOWHERE NEAR those percentages against top defenses like the Pistons and Knicks - if he HAD gotten those ridiculous percentages, that would have meant those defenses were bad - that would have been [I]unheard of[/I] against a top defense in previous eras, but today it happens all the time.

plus, lebron does just fine with his clunky style and molasses slow first step, which gets him locked up by gordon hayward - [i]look how horrible his first step is at 29:[/i]:


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d7821303425e7393bf4711800224841e.gif[/IMG]



NO COMPARISON to a 30 year-old MJ.. there isn't anyone in the league doing it like this or this easy (and blowing by super-athlete doug west.. youtube doug west if you don't know how athletic he was):


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_with_the_Baseline_HopSt_f3dde741dd9364e1d67d426c26375b8c.gif[/IMG]




and even in lebron's prime, lebron never slid between defenders like this.. and he never changed direction or got off his feet this quickly either (and this is against paul pressey, then the in-out on terry cummings, not gordon hayward):


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b65300f8b710f908d7b963f480a3e929.gif[/IMG]

game changed alot since jordan hey day

[QUOTE=pauk]3ball? What the hell are you talking about.... In the 90s, teams had to actually defend every player on the court unless they sent a hard double-team.... today you are allowed to amplify your entire roster on one player and get away with it.... [url]http://www.sbnation.com/2014/3/25/5542838/nba-rules-changes-lebron-james-michael-jordan[/url][/QUOTE]
Great article. Pretty much settles the thread.

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]Great article. Pretty much settles the thread.[/QUOTE]
It should, but it doesnt.

Confirmed: Jordan is GOAT to everyone who watched the NBA in the 90s.

Goes to show how unlucky youngsters are who only got to see the likes of Kobe and LeBron...

[QUOTE=navy]It should, but it doesnt.[/QUOTE]
why the hell should it?

i have the facts and RULES on my side dumbass - i just posted the ACTUAL RULES that show previous eras were allowed to camp in the paint... i don't need to hide behind some inaccurate article written by someone that has no more special knowledge about the game than any fan like you or me.

you can read right?... okay.. then stfu, because the rules are posted at the top of this page - previous eras could camp in the lane, and today they can't.

[QUOTE=3ball]why the hell should it?

i have the facts and RULES on my side dumbass - i just posted the ACTUAL RULES that show previous eras were allowed to camp in the paint... i don't need to hide behind some inaccurate article written by someone that has no more special knowledge about the game than any fan like you or me.

you can read right?... okay.. then stfu, because the rules are posted at the top of this page - previous eras could camp in the lane, and today they can't.[/QUOTE]

Please can you stop. I don't want to hear the same argument 100 times.

.
[B][SIZE="3"]No Spacing = Defenders in Close Proximity = Easier/Better Help Defense[/SIZE][/B]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/573113292e852dcb8f5fe242c53e3982.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/832a26d5ea87f83465b92fe12837530b.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/c2bdc97f50bdc6f9fb0d44ff4f53f8f6.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/728b10a2dca8fca89dca89f115243b29.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/54cd4db17a9330ca58b8e33a0b6f9b2f.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/9452b82cec96338b7f838b67c9198694.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/cc9f5bd27abe1cedf21d5f3133957e62.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/4f4c41732d2efc336f98c983acb52e72.gif[/IMG]... See Bill Walton Waiting in Lane

[QUOTE=navy]It should, but it doesnt.[/QUOTE]
It does.

That article is a bonanza of cherry picking screenshots. Anyone who writes an article trying to prove todays paint is more packed, is in two words, a colossal retard.


Today you have coaches that take away their bigs out of the game, Hibbert and Duncan (huge stupid mistake in my opinion), but nevertheless they did it, because they were to "slow" to protect the paint and somehow the paint is more packed today. The fact that the only angle favoring Lebron in that article is this stupid fantasy that paint is more packed today should definitely end this discussion.

Facts Vs delusion

[QUOTE=Kvnzhangyay]what?[/QUOTE]


MJ's last season was in 97-98. I don't count the shell of an MJ after that.

But the point stands. It was more difficult to score, and to score efficiently in '98, than in '14.

Interesting thread, but it's somewhat problematic for anyone, even a guru like Thibs, to make categorical statements about differences for even one specific play scenario such as modern defenders' reaction to Jordan catching in the high post. Those problems increase exponentially when we try to to extrapolate as to the entire level of defensive prowess of 80-90's v. 2000-10's. Not to say that Thibs isn't making a valid point, but we can go tit for tat, and find other scenarios Jordan would find easier to exploit in today's game. And Thibs' comments in the article as a whole, acknowledge that fact.

Personally, I think Jordan would have a bit more offensive success today than in the past and would be the acknowledged best player. However, even the 90's Bulls game would need to be adjusted to today's game, or they would be at a disadvantage. The Bulls would have to adjust to the emphasis and need to defend the three point line at all times, and they would have to adjust to the explosiveness and athleticism of many scoring point guards today. The Bulls were always capable of being exploited at the pg position, even though Paxon and Kerr were serviceable and clutch. But at the same time, slap this year's Spurs, OKC or GS team into the 80's and 90's and they'd have to adjust to more physical defenses and bruising fouls, aggressive trapping and more contested and congested paint.

To be honest, basketball "progresses" just like any other sport, in fits and spurts, some for the better, some for the worse. Some might argue that the 90's ultra-physical defenses such as NY and Miami were brutal and ugly to watch, but others might argue that it ground down all but the best teams such as the Bulls and that it would likely grind down most or all of the elite offenses today, were it allowed to be executed. Some might claim the emphasis on player and team efficiency makes for a more pure, team-oriented game, others claim it diminishes the ability/need for transcendent players, who traditionally most great championship teams require. It all boils down to preferences and assumptions that none of us can ever know about how different eras would have performed against each other.

Lastly, in reference 3ball's point about players like KD and Wade having individual playoff series in which they scored "better" or more efficiently than Jordan's and that being a referendum on poor modern day defenses: I'm not sure such small sample sizes indicate anything other than that we are talking about three all time greats. I certainly would argue that Jordan had greater and more dominant scoring series than either Wade in 2010 against Boston or KD against the Spurs, even if these players scored with more efficiency.

You can put all three players in either 80's and 90's or today and all three will have overall great playoff careers. But in my opinion, Jordan's body of work as far as scoring will be collectively better than someone like Wade, Kobe, KD, or Lebron no matter what era they are playing. because as great as they are, each of those players has areas of offensive weaknesses, either from a skillset or from a mental aspect, that can be exploited. Jordan was, of course not perfect, but it usually much harder to hold him down over the course of a 7 game series or probe any areas of weakness than it is for these other players.

Just my two cents worth; very good observations here by a number of posters.

[QUOTE=3ball]it's dumb to ponder how jordan would do today, when lesser players do better than he ever did: wade averaged 33.2 ppg on 66% TS against Thibb's Celtics defense in 2010 playoffs, Durant got 30 ppg on 65% TS against the Spurs, and others have similar ridiculous percentages against today's spaced out defenses - it is impossible for a defense to be good if players can get that type of shooting percentage.

Jordan never got those percentages against any playoff team, and was NOWHERE NEAR those percentages against top defenses like the Pistons and Knicks - if he HAD gotten those ridiculous percentages, that would have meant those defenses were bad - that would have been [I]unheard of[/I] against a top defense in previous eras, but today it happens all the time.

plus, lebron does just fine with his clunky style and molasses slow first step, which gets him locked up by gordon hayward - [i]look how horrible his first step is at 29:[/i]:


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d7821303425e7393bf4711800224841e.gif[/IMG]



NO COMPARISON to a 30 year-old MJ.. there isn't anyone in the league doing it like this or this easy (and blowing by super-athlete doug west.. youtube doug west if you don't know how athletic he was):


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_with_the_Baseline_HopSt_f3dde741dd9364e1d67d426c26375b8c.gif[/IMG]




and even in lebron's prime, lebron never slid between defenders like this.. and he never changed direction or got off his feet this quickly either (and this is against paul pressey, then the in-out on terry cummings, not gordon hayward):


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b65300f8b710f908d7b963f480a3e929.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=pauk]Exactly... this was a huge advantage for 80s-90s scorers... allowed you to have many one-on-one situations.... I mean literally speaking, like if you faced your man up and looked behind him there was no wall there behind ready to contest & take charges, you blew by your man and it was over, defenders could only then run in to help/contest the easy basket which is a whole bit harder...

Illegal defense was a bit different to say the least....

...and while fans think handchecking made it tougher for players to score, i think it actually HELPED if you were a bigger/stronger guy, why? Because you as an offensive player were allowed to counter that physically with your own hands & body aswell, you could get away with many more elbow/off-hand push ofs, body riding and you could slap the defenders arms away from your vicinity (like Jordan used to do alot).... so if you were strong/athletic (and smart) as Jordan no guy at your position was really at an advantage....

Jordan was great, but this indeed helped alot....[/QUOTE]
No.
A man with a powerful forearm throws a guy off balance. Sure there are tricks an offensive guy can use, but there's no denying a powerful defender has an enormous advantage over a defender who can only move his feet.

[QUOTE=Elosha]Interesting thread, but it's somewhat problematic for anyone, even a guru like Thibs, to make categorical statements about differences for even one specific play scenario such as modern defenders' reaction to Jordan catching in the high post. Those problems increase exponentially when we try to to extrapolate as to the entire level of defensive prowess of 80-90's v. 2000-10's. Not to say that Thibs isn't making a valid point, but we can go tit for tat, and find other scenarios Jordan would find easier to exploit in today's game. And Thibs' comments in the article as a whole, acknowledge that fact.

Personally, I think Jordan would have a bit more offensive success today than in the past and would be the acknowledged best player. However, even the 90's Bulls game would need to be adjusted to today's game, or they would be at a disadvantage. The Bulls would have to adjust to the emphasis and need to defend the three point line at all times, and they would have to adjust to the explosiveness and athleticism of many scoring point guards today. The Bulls were always capable of being exploited at the pg position, even though Paxon and Kerr were serviceable and clutch. But at the same time, slap this year's Spurs, OKC or GS team into the 80's and 90's and they'd have to adjust to more physical defenses and bruising fouls, aggressive trapping and more contested and congested paint.

To be honest, basketball "progresses" just like any other sport, in fits and spurts, some for the better, some for the worse. Some might argue that the 90's ultra-physical defenses such as NY and Miami were brutal and ugly to watch, but others might argue that it ground down all but the best teams such as the Bulls and that it would likely grind down most or all of the elite offenses today, were it allowed to be executed. Some might claim the emphasis on player and team efficiency makes for a more pure, team-oriented game, others claim it diminishes the ability/need for transcendent players, who traditionally most great championship teams require. It all boils down to preferences and assumptions that none of us can ever know about how different eras would have performed against each other.

Lastly, in reference 3ball's point about players like KD and Wade having individual playoff series in which they scored "better" or more efficiently than Jordan's and that being a referendum on poor modern day defenses: I'm not sure such small sample sizes indicate anything other than that we are talking about three all time greats. I certainly would argue that Jordan had greater and more dominant scoring series than either Wade in 2010 against Boston or KD against the Spurs, even if these players scored with more efficiency.

You can put all three players in either 80's and 90's or today and all three will have overall great playoff careers. But in my opinion, Jordan's body of work as far as scoring will be collectively better than someone like Wade, Kobe, KD, or Lebron no matter what era they are playing. because as great as they are, each of those players has areas of offensive weaknesses, either from a skillset or from a mental aspect, that can be exploited. Jordan was, of course not perfect, but it usually much harder to hold him down over the course of a 7 game series or probe any areas of weakness than it is for these other players.

Just my two cents worth; very good observations here by a number of posters.[/QUOTE]

Great post

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever][url]http://www.nba.com/2014/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/28/the-international-influence-mainbar/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt3a[/url]

A great article on the evolution of the "city game" into the world's game and the impact of internationals on the NBA.

I saw this interesting quote that could shed light on some of the debate on rules changes we were having here on ISH a couple months back..

""When Jordan was playing," Chicago coach Tom Thibodeau said, "if he was isolated at 12 feet or at the elbow, you had to keep your 'big' on the weak side. There was no way you could get him across the lane. Now that you can bring your big over to the strong side, elbow isolations become jump-shot plays. And there's usually four shooters on the floor, at a minimum, and some teams have five."

Feel free to disagree with one of the NBA's best defensive minds.[/QUOTE]

WTF is your point? This has been explained to you over and over and over here, and why this is NOT a true zone defense, and you still can't get it?

And you just now even acknowledge the first part of it when a coach says it?

You are a nut.

[QUOTE=Purch]Makes sense.

Hand checking vs Zone rules have always been a give or take dynamic[/QUOTE]

Except that NBA does not allow zone defense.

It's absolutely amazing that people don't even know what a zone defense is on a basketball forum.

[QUOTE=3ball][url=http://grantland.com/features/packing-paint-nba-defensive-strategy-forcing-coaches-rethink-their-offense/]http://grantland.com/features/packing-paint-nba-defensive-strategy-forcing-coaches-rethink-their-offense/[/url]

[QUOTE=Euroleague]The NBA does not allow zone defense. STOP TROLLING and stop posting ridiculous articles like that.[/QUOTE]
The NBA's zone is a more complex, modified version of the European zone. It's better but still a zone nonetheless.

[QUOTE=3ball]Today's defensive 3 seconds rule requires defenders to stay out of the lane, unless they are within "armslength" of an opponent.. [url]http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html[/url]

The original rule from 1982 was different, and ALLOWED defenders to camp in the paint: ([url]http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html[/url])

[INDENT][B]1981-82[/B]
"[I]Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint)"[/I].[/INDENT]

So just by substituting the rule's own parenthetical reference, the rule translates EXACTLY to: "Defender on player adjacent to the paint is allowed in defensive 3 second area."


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b209aeddf6bfaaa9fcaed8eea3c72c65.gif[/IMG]


[b]in this clip, Klay Thompson's dad (#43 in the middle of lane) would get a tech after 3 seconds in today's game because his man is out of "armslength".... but back then, he was legal because his man was "adjacent to the paint", which was the only requirement at the time - notice how there is no need for Thompson to tippy-toe in and out of the paint.
[/B]

in previous eras, guys didn't have to worry about staying out of the lane or tippy-toeing - the 3 seconds rule was very simple back then: as long as their man was "adjacent to the paint", defenders could stay in the lane... so usually, they could camp in the lane for the entire possession because the paint is huge, and "adjacent to the paint" covers a ton of ground... Furthermore, "adjacent to the paint" could mean right next to the paint, a few feet outside the paint, or all the way out to the 3-point line - [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695139&postcount=1][u]defenders routinely camped in the paint while their man was behind the 3-point line[/u][/url].

contrastingly, today's rule makes sure defenders can physically touch their man to stay in the lane, by requiring defenders be within "armslength" of an opponent - since players that are outside, or "adjacent to the paint", are out of armslength to defenders inside the paint, players in today's game are not allowed to stay in the lane if their man is outside the paint.
.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. This is the difference between illegal defense rules (no zone allowed) and the current rules of defensive 3 seconds (no zone allowed).

These absolute MORONS calling the current rules "easier" or "zone defense" are unbelievable...........good GOD.

Freaking play a damn JUNIOR high school basketball game and this shit is even obvious.

The old rules were not zone and were HARDER to score against.

the new rules are NOT zone and are EASIER to score against.

Anyone saying anything to the contrary of that is a freaking idiot and does not know even the most basic rules of basketball.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Prime example of why that's bullshit:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif[/IMG]

Jordan had to beat 2 traps/doubles (including one where the Knicks sent their PF or one of their 'bigs' to cut off his baseline drive)... only for him to be met at the basket by a 7 ft shot blocker because there was no 3-sec rule.

And if you watch the whole possession, the Bulls had to beat a full court trap zone to even get the ball past half court:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=330HeLlv52U[/url]

So again... what the f*ck is Thibs talking about? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

It's because he already had the ball in his hands.

[QUOTE=pauk]Exactly... this was a huge advantage for 80s-90s scorers... allowed you to have many one-on-one situations.... I mean literally speaking, like if you faced your man up and looked behind him there was no wall there behind ready to contest & take charges, you blew by your man and it was over, defenders could only then run in to help/contest the easy basket which is a whole bit harder...

Illegal defense was a bit different to say the least....

...and while fans think handchecking made it tougher for players to score, i think it actually HELPED if you were a bigger/stronger guy, why? Because you as an offensive player were allowed to counter that physically with your own hands & body aswell, you could get away with many more elbow/off-hand push ofs, body riding and you could slap the defenders arms away from your vicinity (like Jordan used to do alot).... so if you were strong/athletic (and smart) as Jordan no guy at your position was really at an advantage....

Jordan was great, but this indeed helped alot....[/QUOTE]

You fail at basic logic.

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]Great article. Pretty much settles the thread.[/QUOTE]

What this thread has confirmed is that a whole lot of people here never played basketball at any level in their life.

You are one of them.

[QUOTE=Euroleague]You fail at basic logic.[/QUOTE]
I noticed that too. It's amazing what some of these guys think :lol

[QUOTE=Milbuck]The NBA's zone is a more complex, modified version of the European zone. It's better but still a zone nonetheless.[/QUOTE]

Another clown that does not even know what a zone defense is.

3ball, I copy pasted below the link on the 1981-82 rule that you posted, and this is what it says:

"1981-82
• Zone defense rules clarified with new rules for Illegal Defensive Alignments.
a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16’), but not in the college lane (12’) for more than three seconds.
b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint area).
c. Player without ball may not be double-teamed from weak side."

Please elaborate. Letter B is the same as today. You are allowed to be in the lane as long as you're guarding someone. However, in the past, you couldn't come over from the weak side like Thibs said.

Of course, I will allow that calls by refs tended to be inconsistent, at times

Also today, you are allowed in the paint WITHOUT GUARDING ANYONE for up to 3 seconds.

[QUOTE=Euroleague]The NBA does not allow zone defense. STOP TROLLING and stop posting ridiculous articles like that.[/QUOTE]

GTFO of this thread, EL!

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]3ball, I copy pasted below the link on the 1981-82 rule that you posted, and this is what it says:

"1981-82

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]GTFO of this thread, EL![/QUOTE]
But he's right.

Anybody that knows basic basketball will tell you the NBA doesn't play a true zone. Even then, it isn't used at all.

Different posters have already exposed how little the zones are actually used in the NBA today (or so called zone). Different rules simply disallow for a true zone to be played.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Prime example of why that's bullshit:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif[/IMG]

Jordan had to beat 2 traps/doubles (including one where the Knicks sent their PF or one of their 'bigs' to cut off his baseline drive)... only for him to be met at the basket by a 7 ft shot blocker because there was no 3-sec rule.

And if you watch the whole possession, the Bulls had to beat a full court trap zone to even get the ball past half court:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=330HeLlv52U[/url]

So again... what the f*ck is Thibs talking about? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

when your own offensive player is between you and the bucket...a defender will be between you and the bucket. That isn't era specific. Someone has to defend a man under the bucket or it's a free score. What don't you understand about that? In your clip the 3 second rule wouldn't even apply because the guy that contested MJ was in the paint guarding his own man.


We have a bunch of nostalgia blind folks in this thread who refuse to understand how defense is more free to play zone and aggressively double team today, AND perimeter players don't have to deal with handchecking BUT they do have to watch their spacing and be able to shoot from distance or they **** up the offense without even touching the ball. [I][B]There is no more sending 3 guys to one side of the court and having them twiddle their ****ing thumbs (because they have to be defended even if they aren't a threat while your best two offensive players work to get a 1-on-1.[/B][/I]


Here's what the winningest coach in NBA history has to say:

"The game seems to flow better under those rules," says Nelson. "It's not as control-oriented as the pros have become. It's more, `Let's play basketball.' It allows any defense, so it's like a throwback. Our illegal defense is a main culprit. We can put one or two players away from the goal and play half-court, three-man and dictate how to play until the double team comes and then the ball is passed out and shot.

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]

b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player [B][SIZE="4"]adjacent to paint area[/SIZE][/B]).

[/QUOTE]
You have trolled me hard here and now i'm pissed.

[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10866782&postcount=121][u]I have posted[/u][/url] the old and new defensive 3 seconds rules itt several times and explained the difference, but you apparently didn't read the posts, because here you are reciting the rules to me and completely ignoring what the rules actually say.

The old rule (bolded above) says defenders can stay in the lane if their man is "ADJACENT TO THE PAINT", while the new rule says defenders can only stay in the lane if their man is within "ARMSLENGTH" ([url=http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html][u]here's the link[/u][/url] to the "armslength" language - it's the 2nd sentence in the first paragraph).

"Adjacent" and "armslength" don't mean the same thing - do you think they do?... The "armslength" language from the new rule forces today's defenders to tippy-toe in and out of the lane on a continual basis to remain within physical reach - previous eras didn't have to tippy-toe because defenders could stay in the lane [I]even if[/I] their man was OUT of armslength reach, as long as they were still "adjacent to the paint".

Here's a GIF where Bill Cartwright is out of "armslength" reach of long-armed Mark Eaton, so Eaton would get a tech after 3 seconds in today's game.... but back then, Eaton was fine because Cartwright was "adjacent to the paint"... notice how Eaton could care less about a tippy-toe.

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d6c47d055cfff266f26bde61297986cf.gif[/IMG]

btw, how is it that you are content to argue your case without offering ANY viewable evidence?... you say today's defenses have equal paint defense, but you can't show it visually... otoh, for me, i've gotten pretty efficient at it - it takes me less than 90 seconds to both [I]find and create[/I] a GIF of defenders camping under the rim in previous eras... after all, it happened on literally every possession.

[QUOTE=3ball]You have trolled me hard here and now i'm pissed.

[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10866782&postcount=121][u]I have posted[/u][/url] the old and new defensive 3 seconds rules itt several times and explained the difference, but you apparently didn't read the posts, because here you are reciting the rules to me and completely ignoring what the rules actually say.

The old rule (bolded above) says defenders can stay in the lane if their man is "ADJACENT TO THE PAINT", while the new rule says defenders can only stay in the lane if their man is within "ARMSLENGTH" ([url=http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html][u]here's the link[/u][/url] to the "armslength" language - it's the 2nd sentence in the first paragraph).

"Adjacent" and "armslength" don't mean the same thing - do you think they do?... The "armslength" language from the new rule forces today's defenders to tippy-toe in and out of the lane on a continual basis to remain within physical reach - previous eras didn't have to tippy-toe because defenders could stay in the lane [I]even if[/I] their man was OUT of armslength reach, but still "adjacent to the paint".

Here's a GIF where Bill Cartwright is out of "armslength" reach of long-armed Mark Eaton, so Eaton would get a tech after 3 seconds in today's game.... but back then, Eaton was fine because Cartwright was "adjacent to the paint".

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d6c47d055cfff266f26bde61297986cf.gif[/IMG]

btw, how is it that you are content to argue your case without offering ANY viewable evidence?... you say today's defenses have equal paint defense, but you can't show it visually... otoh, for me, i've gotten pretty efficient at it - it takes me less than 90 seconds to both [I]find and create[/I] a GIF of defenders camping under the rim in previous eras.[/QUOTE]

would you ever send me the file of all your gifs.???

[QUOTE=The_Pharcyde]would you ever send me the file of all your gifs.???[/QUOTE]
pm'd
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[B]Here's what ACTUALLY happened in previous eras when Jordan caught it on the elbow:
[/B]

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/573113292e852dcb8f5fe242c53e3982.gif[/IMG]


Think you can beat that Thibbs?... Keep dreaming.. Such defense is impossible in today's game.

The NBA said many times that they instituted rules like defensive 3 seconds to "open up the game"... "allow more freedom of movement"... and "make passing and cutting easier".

The aforementioned rule changes and the inception of spacing strategy did indeed open up the game.. Accordingly, new defensive strategies were needed to [I]maintain[/I] defensive effectiveness... if Thibbs hadn't come up with something to mitigate defensive 3 seconds and guard the larger surface area caused by 3-pointers, someone else would have.

Thibbs deserves credit, but his strategies would've been developed at some point anyway, because the rule changes & spacing necessitated it.. GM Daryl Morey says just that:

3Ball, Im surprised you didn't use more NY Knick gifs perhaps the best defensive team ever.

They were the Bad Boys 2.0 the evolution of the Jordan Rules. They signed players with the sole purpose to stop MJ. They took the Pistons' playbook and Riley instituted a system that broke all rules. He pushed the button on physicality and toughness and didn't back down, refs just said "f*ck it!" and let them play. The Knicks were smarter, tougher, dirtier and more athletic than any defensive team perhaps ever.

Not only did you have to fight through great perimeter All Defensive specialists that were tough, you then had to go through Mason, Oakley, Xman, Smith, only to be met by Ewing. What other team had that?

That's like some American Gladiator gauntlet shit right there.

Zone rules? they played Zone!

They broke all rules.

So the rules said big man can't trap... pfft... Riley said "F*ck you!" and sent Ewing anyways, DARED the refs to call anything.

Rules may have stated that a player can't be doubled without the ball, and Riley wiped his ass with that rule.

But forget about the Knicks... almost every single team employed similar Jordan Rules tactics to stop him. Every team cheated the system and refs just swallowed their whistle. Replace all the MJ gifs with other players and teams and you'll see tougher defense than what's played today.

hey 3ball, why don't you post 50 more .gifs of Jordan playing with half his own teammates in the paint, and then act like those are even applicable to what we're talking about?

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]hey 3ball, why don't you post 50 more .gifs of Jordan playing with half his own teammates in the paint, and then act like those are even applicable to what we're talking about?[/QUOTE]
he is such an idiot. i have no idea why people keep arguing with him. he doesn't understand any rule relating to defense at all.

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[B]PLAYOFF AVERAGES THRU 30 YRS OLD:
[/B]
[I]JORDAN[/I]: 35 PPG / [B][I]7 APG[/I][/B] / 50% FG
[I]LEBRON[/I]: 28 PPG / 6 APG / 48% FG


[B]FINALS AVERAGES THRU 30 YRS OLD:
[/B]
[I]JORDAN[/I]: 36 PPG / [B][I]8 APG[/I][/B] / 50% FG
[I]LEBRON[/I]: 24 PPG / 6 APG / 46% FG

[I]Source: basketball-reference.com[/I]


[SIZE="3"][B]MJ CAREER AVERAGE: [SIZE="4"]33.4 PPG[/SIZE][/b][/size]

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Thibbs developed his methodologies in the mid-late 2000's FOR spacing, to COMBAT spacing.. this is a fact... he would never have came up with these defenses in the 80's or 90's when there was no spacing and guys could camp in the lane.

when guys could camp in the lane, they didn't have to move out of the paint when the ball was swung like they must do today - they could just move their head and body like a swivel chair...

and certainly, it makes sense that swinging the ball would be less effective in previous eras before the new rules in 2005 designed to "make passing and cutting easier"... "open up the game"... and "allow for more freedom of movement".
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[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]

Jordan playing with half his own teammates in the paint.... are those even applicable to what we're talking about?

[/QUOTE]
you don't think spacing makes it easier for offensive players?

:wtf:


[QUOTE]

hey 3ball, why don't you post 50 more .gifs of Jordan playing [SIZE="4"]with half his own teammates in the paint

[/QUOTE]
dude, in every single GIF i posted, there were bulls players behind the 3-point line, while everyone else camped in the lane... why don't you go back and take a [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10866902&postcount=134][u]2nd look[/u][/url]..

Also, why don't you check out some GIFs that are even more obvious in showing [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695139&postcount=1][u]guys paint-camping while their man is behind the 3-point line[/u][/url] - all the GIFs are from a single video - that's how easy they are to find.

you should know that all i'm really trying to do is show that defensive effectiveness has remained [I]the same[/I] over the eras - it's just that people tend to think today's defenses are so much better, so to prove they are merely equal with previous eras, i have to bash today's defenses..

but i've made many a thread about how league-wide ORtg has remained stable over the years due to teams adjusting on both ends of the floor and rule changes taking away some things but adding others, so it all evens out, etc, etc.. that's my real stance on the issue - but in order to get that point across, i have to diminish today's overrated defenses.
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