surround him with shooters and a stretch 4, he'd excel substantially in this league. double him, and pay the 3 ball price. single cover him, and he'll score on you. sounds simple, but it sort of is. He'd midrange all over the NBA's face.
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surround him with shooters and a stretch 4, he'd excel substantially in this league. double him, and pay the 3 ball price. single cover him, and he'll score on you. sounds simple, but it sort of is. He'd midrange all over the NBA's face.
People REALLY need to stop looking at the tail end of an arguement and looking out of context,
Ralph said Jordan would still be great, just that he would not average 40.
Imo, considering he averaged 37 one year, if he fell to a worse team, then sure I could see it.
But ask yourself this, how much did mj, in the regular season, score per game at his peak?
[QUOTE=DavisIsMyUniBro]The thing is, the gap is probably closed when you factor in 3 point shooting, which increases the pace of most teams.[/QUOTE]
Hmm no they were still slow in the late 90s when 3s doubled from the 80s
[QUOTE=juju151111]Hmm no they were still slow in the late 90s when 3s doubled from the 80s[/QUOTE]
But it's still not used as much as it is today.
[QUOTE=DavisIsMyUniBro]
He would get more foul calls, that much is obvious. Spacing feels better today, so Im sure he would have developed a decent 3 point shot.[/quote]
All true apart from the fact MJ did at worst have a decent three ball from 1990 forward. It's hyperbole when people want to make it sound like it was a visible weakness in his game. It wasn't. At worst it was average.
And what are you on about less minutes and more modern training? He didn't play THAT long ago. And his trainer, Grover, was ahead of his time. In fact he's still the best in the business. MJ didn't need to improve in that regard after he started weight lifting to build his upper body to sustain more late season physical punishment.
Some players today are too big or built or heavy for the fast cutting game they play. Thus excessive lower body injuries and poor stamina in some cases. Actually one of the negative effects of concentration on weight lifting.
It's basketball not football. Iverson and KD didn't need to be huge to dominate.
[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]
the paint is clogged
PGs are the main ball dominant guys now
[/QUOTE]
HOw hard can it be to use the brain, paint is clogged but PG's are the main ball dominant guys?
Makes sense.
[QUOTE=catch24]The rules have also obliterated post ups which were a big part of MJ's game, especially during the 2nd three-peat.
[/QUOTE]
Too bad that everyone saw the corpse of Andre Miller multiple times rape people left and right at the post with these "new rules"
People don't post up because of the rules, they don't post up because they can't, they don't have the skills. This is the most dumbed down era of NBA basketball since the 60's.
Reading the first page was enough.
If we think Jordan averaged 37 points for a season and 33\8\8 another, it becomes almost hilarious to think what he would put up in such a fluffy era.
yeah, i also disagree with the "post ups" excuse. Are we talking big men or guards? If the latter, just look at kobe (dont care if he was efficient from there last season or not), he still plays 50% of his possessions in the post. why? because he has the ability to do so, both as a scorer and playmaker. MJ is the same way. he'll get his ISO's in the post if teams allow, but if they decide to hard double as soon as he touches the ball there, he'll kick or skip it to the open man.
More teams would incorporate that into their offense if they had players who could legitimately play from there
[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]
this is a 3-point shooters league
the paint is clogged
[/quote]
oxymoron
There's no era in the NBA where a prime Jordan wouldn't score his minimum 30+ ppg.
There's no magic defensive scheme or zone or Tom Thibodou voodoo that changes this fundamental fact:
There's no one at 6-6 or taller that can stay in front of Jordan (prime) laterally.
The man had the quickness of a extremely fast 6'0 or 6'1 player in a 6'6 frame with a large wing span to go with that.
So you can either put a taller defender on him and get blown past, or a smaller defender who's quicker but one he can easily shoot over.
If you can't stop the guy from getting his shot off, you're not going to stop him from scoring. Again. And again. And again.
Combine the speed with incredible agility and leaping ability means he could manufacture a quality shot virtually every time down the floor.
On a good team? Probably less ppg and more assists. Pretty sure a coach nowadays would utilize him differently nowadays, considering a lot hate midrange shots and emphasize on finding the open threeball
so maybe 31/5/9
[QUOTE=Soundwave]There's no era in the NBA where a prime Jordan wouldn't score his minimum 30+ ppg.
There's no magic defensive scheme or zone or Tom Thibodou voodoo that changes this fundamental fact:
There's no one at 6-6 or taller that can stay in front of Jordan (prime) laterally.
The man had the quickness of a extremely fast 6'0 or 6'1 player in a 6'6 frame with a large wing span to go with that.
So you can either put a taller defender on him and get blown past, or a smaller defender who's quicker but one he can easily shoot over.
If you can't stop the guy from getting his shot off, you're not going to stop him from scoring. Again. And again. And again.
Combine the speed with incredible agility and leaping ability means he could manufacture a quality shot virtually every time down the floor.[/QUOTE]
:applause: I always say that his quickness is the most underrated and also the most devastating part of his game. As you said, his quickness for a guy 6'6" was simply off the charts. Looked more like an elite, 6'0" PG's quickness. From the triple threat position, a single defender really had no chance.
he'd literally average 40-10-10 on 58% FG in this era.
[QUOTE=Soundwave]There's no era in the NBA where a prime Jordan wouldn't score his minimum 30+ ppg.
There's no magic defensive scheme or zone or Tom Thibodou voodoo that changes this fundamental fact:
There's no one at 6-6 or taller that can stay in front of Jordan (prime) laterally.
The man had the quickness of a extremely fast 6'0 or 6'1 player in a 6'6 frame with a large wing span to go with that.
So you can either put a taller defender on him and get blown past, or a smaller defender who's quicker but one he can easily shoot over.
If you can't stop the guy from getting his shot off, you're not going to stop him from scoring. Again. And again. And again.
Combine the speed with incredible agility and leaping ability means he could manufacture a quality shot virtually every time down the floor.[/QUOTE]
word
No time to look at the stats, but you guys forget that when Jordan decided to make the 3 point shot a part of his game for the 1989 season, he shot 37 or 38%. He made it part of his game, unlike previous season only shooting around 20 to 30 3 pointers per season. That were probably mostly bailouts.
Jordan doesn't live in a vacume. He's abnormal drive to win is what developed his game, and if you put him in any era, especially one with permeter friendly rules, he's going to adjust to that style and dominate. Since it's all abuot winning for him.
Also remember a couple of years ago in the playoff, where the way the 3 point shot was called was modified, and we had record 4 point plays? Defenders now have to be more careful? Easier shots.
In this league where an effeminate mixed nikka is the MVP?
Jordan would murk this league
the general consensus is worse
[QUOTE=Soundwave]There's no era in the NBA where a prime Jordan wouldn't score his minimum 30+ ppg.
There's no magic defensive scheme or zone or Tom Thibodou voodoo that changes this fundamental fact:
There's no one at 6-6 or taller that can stay in front of Jordan (prime) laterally.
The man had the quickness of a extremely fast 6'0 or 6'1 player in a 6'6 frame with a large wing span to go with that.
So you can either put a taller defender on him and get blown past, or a smaller defender who's quicker but one he can easily shoot over.
If you can't stop the guy from getting his shot off, you're not going to stop him from scoring. Again. And again. And again.
Combine the speed with incredible agility and leaping ability means he could manufacture a quality shot virtually every time down the floor.[/QUOTE]
Eh. You're right. Almost all 6'0" and 6'6" would get destroyed by him. But intermediate guards (6'3" Gary Payton, 6'3" Joe Dumars) gave him the most trouble.
I think Tony Allen would have the perfect blend of attributes to guard Jordan.
[QUOTE=Rocketswin2013]Eh. You're right. Almost all 6'0" and 6'6" would get destroyed by him. But intermediate guards (6'3" Gary Payton, 6'3" Joe Dumars) gave him the most trouble.
I think Tony Allen would be the perfect blend of attributes to guard Jordan.[/QUOTE]
Tony Allen would hold him to 5 points on 20 FGA.
[QUOTE=inclinerator]the general consensus is worse[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but that's limited to 13-15 year old LeBron fans who never saw MJ play.
[QUOTE=Rocketswin2013]Eh. You're right. Almost all 6'0" and 6'6" would get destroyed by him. But intermediate guards (6'3" Gary Payton, 6'3" Joe Dumars) gave him the most trouble.
I think Tony Allen would have the perfect blend of attributes to guard Jordan.[/QUOTE]
MJ would still burn TA. Allen is the best perimeter defender in the game today, but he wouldn't slow down the GOAT.
[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]Yeah, but that's limited to 13-15 year old LeBron fans who never saw MJ play.[/QUOTE]
We all saw MJ get carried to multiple rings in the weak era of the 90's...
They almost won the ship without him. :oldlol:
MJ was just a chucker on a stacked team. Albeit, a very good chucker...
A lot better than Kobe but not quite the overall player LeBron is, or the all-around scorer that KD is.
He'd likely be third best player in todays game. There's no shame in that.
[QUOTE=Rocketswin2013]Eh. You're right. Almost all 6'0" and 6'6" would get destroyed by him. But intermediate guards (6'3" Gary Payton, 6'3" Joe Dumars) gave him the most trouble.
I think Tony Allen would have the perfect blend of attributes to guard Jordan.[/QUOTE]
I think Tony would have some success against mj, but it wouldn't be sustainable over the course of a series or anything like that. 2nd 3peat mj he'd probably give fits though. Seems like alot of people here forget 2nd 3peat was really an entirely different player.
[QUOTE=Vaniiiia]We all saw MJ get carried to multiple rings in the weak era of the 90's...
They almost won the ship without him. :oldlol:
MJ was just a chucker on a stacked team. Albeit, a very good chucker...
A lot better than Kobe but not quite the overall player LeBron is, or the all-around scorer that KD is.
He'd likely be third best player in todays game. There's no shame in that.[/QUOTE]
I rest my case your honor.
[QUOTE=Vaniiiia]
or the all-around scorer that KD is.
[/QUOTE]
This guy can't post, overpower inside, dominate the paint, or make shots under duress like MJ... It's not even close... Durant is a bailout offensive player - most of his offense is bail-out jumpshots.. Don't compare that type of limited, predictable repertoire to the unlimited things MJ did.
[QUOTE=Vaniiiia]
not quite the overall player LeBron is,
[/quote]
MJ's style was more effective.. First of all, he had good efficiency at high shot volume, since his efficiency was elite at the additional 1-on-1 and midrange required of high volume shooters. Otoh, we saw Lebron's 1-on-1 fail in the 2015 Finals because he COULDN'T shoot a good percentage at high volume - he's simply bad at the additional 1-on-1 and midrange required of high volume shooters - this is statistical fact.
In addition to shooting well at high volume, MJ's style also succeeded because his buckets usually came AFTER running off-ball, so he didn't use live-dribbles as often - his lack of ball-dominance allowed the Bulls to run an equal-opportunity offense (triangle) and therefore the best brand of basketball.. This is another stark contrast from today's so-called best player - Lebron's ball-dominance prevents his teams from running equal-opportunity offenses and the best brand of basketball, which allows equal or less-talented opponents to pull upsets by playing a [I]better[/I] brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).
Also, there's a 3rd reason why MJ's style ended up working for the Bulls - MJ's off-ball style of play [I]increased[/I] the APG and assist percentage of teammates like Pippen, while Lebron's ball-dominance [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841]craters[/url] the APG and assist % of his teammates (Wade, Love, Bosh, Kyrie, Mo Williams).. With Lebron's style decreasing the assists of teammates, it's no surprise that all his TEAMS have [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446]lower assist frequency[/url].
Sorry to upset you in the other thread 3ball, but i'm not interested in reading your garbage copy pastas.
MJ would die in KD's situation without a head coach and with an inefficient, erratic second option and nobody inside to take the attention off of him.
KD without Westbrook was doubled more than MJ ever was, and he still put up arguably the most impressive season in the modern era.
That's when I knew he was better than Jordan.
[QUOTE=sportjames23]MJ would still burn TA. Allen is the best perimeter defender in the game today, but he wouldn't slow down the GOAT.[/QUOTE]
IMO, people overrate Payton's defense on Jordan
Jordan averaged 30.5ppg on decent shooting (48%) in the regular season.
In that playoffs, in my opinion, Jordan was basically a shadow of his former self (that season in general imo).
That being said, Ill say one thing.
While Jordan, and by extention, many players are more talented from that era, are more talented than some of the players of today (though we are unfortunate with injuries today, and tbh, imo, 4 of the top 15 peak wise are from the 2000s-2015 era (namely, Shaq, Lebron, Duncan, KG, and I am REALLY high on Curry, after taking part in the realgm peaks project. just sayin, some wilt proppers that try to diss realgm are bull-sh*tters. like, that Darkjaws dumb@$$ is a hypocritical piece of $hit)
However, I will say this, I believe that even though Jordan might be more successful in this era (I think no handchecking would help him, offensively, but more advanced defenses will cancel that out, so it will more or less be the same. spacing might help him, as I thinik he will be a good 3 point shooter in teh modern era, as he will probably tweak his stroke a bit)
But I definately believe that the teams today are far better than the teams of the past, other than some super teams of course.
Like, alot of people try to bash the warriors, but people dont understand that they won by an average of 7.8 points, In the playoffs.
In my research, even the top ATG teams rarely have higher "point differentials" than 10. the bulls in the 72 win season had a 10.6+ win mark.
Yes, pace played a part in this, but still, they were deserved champions. people who are saying the finals are rigged are absolutely wankers.
[QUOTE=Vaniiiia]Sorry to upset you in the other thread 3ball, but i'm not interested in reading your garbage copy pastas.
MJ would die in KD's situation without a head coach and with an inefficient, erratic second option and nobody inside to take the attention off of him.
KD without Westbrook was doubled more than MJ ever was, and he still put up arguably the most impressive season in the modern era.
That's when I knew he was better than Jordan.[/QUOTE]
meltdown
MJ plus Harden and Westbrook = Dynasty
[QUOTE=Vaniiiia]Sorry to upset you in the other thread 3ball, but i'm not interested in reading your garbage copy pastas.
MJ would die in KD's situation without a head coach and with an inefficient, erratic second option and nobody inside to take the attention off of him.
KD without Westbrook was doubled more than MJ ever was, and he still put up arguably the most impressive season in the modern era.
That's when I knew he was better than Jordan.[/QUOTE]
meltdown
[QUOTE=warriorfan]meltdown
MJ plus Harden and Westbrook = Dynasty[/QUOTE]
Ah, it's YOU again.... sigh.
Just suck my dick already, get it over with...
All these flirtatious replies from you. It's weird.
Poor mans Wade. Not sure if that's better or worse to you.
sigh
[QUOTE=3ball]This guy can't post, overpower inside, dominate the paint, or make shots under duress like MJ... It's not even close... Durant is a bailout offensive player - most of his offense is bail-out jumpshots.. Don't compare that type of limited, predictable repertoire to the unlimited things MJ did.
MJ's style was more effective.. First of all, he had good efficiency at high shot volume, since his efficiency was elite at the additional 1-on-1 and midrange required of high volume shooters. [B]Otoh, we saw Lebron's 1-on-1 fail in the 2015 Finals because he COULDN'T shoot a good percentage at high volume - he's simply bad at the additional 1-on-1 and midrange required of high volume shooters - this is statistical fact.[/B]
In addition to shooting well at high volume, MJ's style also succeeded because his buckets usually came AFTER running off-ball, so he didn't use live-dribbles as often - his lack of ball-dominance allowed the Bulls to run an equal-opportunity offense (triangle) and therefore the best brand of basketball.. This is another stark contrast from today's so-called best player - Lebron's ball-dominance prevents his teams from running equal-opportunity offenses and the best brand of basketball, which allows equal or less-talented opponents to pull upsets by playing a [I]better[/I] brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).
Also, there's a 3rd reason why MJ's style ended up working for the Bulls - MJ's off-ball style of play [I]increased[/I] the APG and assist percentage of teammates like Pippen, while Lebron's ball-dominance [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841]craters[/url] the APG and assist % of his teammates (Wade, Love, Bosh, Kyrie, Mo Williams).. With Lebron's style decreasing the assists of teammates, it's no surprise that all his TEAMS have [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446]lower assist frequency[/url].[/QUOTE]
Maybe LeBron should have quit the league after his 3rd straight Finals appearance and came back refreshed 2ys later. Possibly would have shot better against GSW under that scenario.
LeBron showed he has the mental toughness to try to win 5 straight rings where MJ couldn't handle the pressure after 3 straight Finals and quit the league.
[QUOTE=Hey Yo]Maybe LeBron should have quit the league after his 3rd straight Finals appearance and came back refreshed 2ys later. Possibly would have shot better against GSW under that scenario.
LeBron showed he has the mental toughness to try to win 5 straight rings where MJ couldn't handle the pressure after 3 straight Finals and quit the league.[/QUOTE]
Brons mental toughness is underrated. It must be very hard to live with the shame after doing something like LeDecision.
[QUOTE=Hey Yo]Maybe LeBron should have quit the league after his 3rd straight Finals appearance and came back refreshed 2ys later. Possibly would have shot better against GSW under that scenario.
LeBron showed he has the mental toughness to try to win 5 straight rings where MJ couldn't handle the pressure after 3 straight Finals and quit the league.[/QUOTE]
Ether sauce with a side of WOAH BABY!
[img]http://i36.tinypic.com/amxkbl.jpg[/img]
Down goes 3ball! Down goes 3ball!
lol at people saying mj would average 15 fts a game, it doesnt work like that after a while they just stop giving you calls even if they are fouls just look at lebron
even harden is maxed out at around 10 for the rs
his numbers would probably rival kobe's tbh not bad at all
MJ had the global attention greater than anyone today in a social media world and constantly was under the microscope from slurpers and haters alike. Hell, he had more global attention than any athlete to ever live.
He would be more dominant, but that is not my question. I want to know if he would get as much attention today, as he did. Isn't he still one of the top paid athletes in his retirement? That is a very very scary thought. Killer instinct vs a league full of players who cry when the ref doesn't bail them out and only play hard for contracts. Yeah, no brainer.
[QUOTE=inclinerator]
his numbers would probably rival kobe's tbh not bad at all[/QUOTE]
:roll:
[QUOTE=Hey Yo]Maybe LeBron should have quit the league after his 3rd straight Finals appearance and came back refreshed 2ys later. Possibly would have shot better against GSW under that scenario.
LeBron showed he has the mental toughness to try to win 5 straight rings where MJ couldn't handle the pressure after 3 straight Finals and quit the league.[/QUOTE]
Guess he was tough enough to endure 4 finals losses as well.
Haha a prime Kobe would just about destroy this weak ass era and ya'll doubting Jordan :lol
Take the little run Westbrook had last season and realize Jordan was twice the player he was.
[B]40-43 PPG on 46% FG on a bad team 30-35 PPG on 49% FG on a good team.
Barkley (located 2nd in that shot chart after MJ) would also feast on this weak as defensive league. Older rules allowed way more contact.[/B]