MJ is the most double-teamed player of all time, besides Wilt

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

Shaq was considerably more unstoppable and efficient from the field

[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="3"][B]Comparing MJ's Peak to Shaq's Peak (91-93' vs. 00'-02')
[/B][/SIZE]

[I]Rebounds/Assists cancel out.. So do Steals/Blocks and FG/FT%:[/I]


[B]REGULAR SEASON[/B]

MJ:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 31.4 ppg.. 58.2% ts.. 122 ORtg.. 0.288 WS/48.. 3 All-Defense [COLOR="Green"]1st[/COLOR] Team.. 2 MVP
Shaq: 28.6 ppg.. 58.0% ts.. 115 ORtg.. 0.264 WS/48.. 2 All-Defense [COLOR="Red"]2nd[/COLOR] Team.. 1 MVP


[B]PLAYOFFS[/B]

MJ:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 33.7 ppg.. 57.2% ts.. 120 ORtg, 0.267 WS/48
Shaq: 29.9 ppg.. 56.2% ts.. 113 ORtg.. 0.238 WS/48


[B]FINALS[/B]

MJ:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 36.3 ppg.. 52.6% fg.. 84.3% ft.. played[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] #5, #3, #9 defenses.. [COLOR="Green"]beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley[/COLOR]
Shaq: 35.9 ppg.. 59.5% fg.. 50.6% ft.. played #13, #5, #1 defenses.. [COLOR="Red"]beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd[/COLOR]


[I]MJ was more dominant and more efficient - irrefutable stats.[/I]

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

Except that is not even true.
Maybe 80's Jordan VS Detroit in certain games or stretches was doubled at a level comparable to what Shaq received on average but thats about it.

[/QUOTE]
I re-watched every single game from the 2000 Finals - this was Shaq's most dominant series ever and the most he was doubled was 3 times in a row.

Even though we've been arguing about this for a week now, you can't show me a single stretch where Shaq was doubled 10 times in a row - this should take 10 minutes if he was doubled more than 80's MJ - because that's all the time it would take me to find more instances of MJ, and I've already shown 3 such games for MJ itt.. So the argument stands, just based on the fact that I can easily reproduce games where MJ was doubled 10 times in a row, and you can't produce any..

And it's intuitive anyway - Shaq played with a bevy of All-NBA guards (Penny, Kobe, Wade, then Lebron) and a bevy of 3-point shooters, [COLOR="Navy"][I]so it would be dumb[/I][/COLOR] for the other team to EVER double Shaq 10 times in a row... Also, it's easier to just foul Shaq, which occurred often...

Otoh, it was much easier to double MJ, because the 80's Bulls didn't even have any all-stars, let alone all-nba players like Shaq had, and they didn't have any 3-point shooting like Shaq's teams either... And of course you couldn't just foul Mike like you can Shaq - for all these very intuitive reasons, 80's MJ was doubled far more than Shaq ever was on his stacked, 3-point shooting teams.

Btw, MJ was more dominant that Shaq - this is easily the most irrefutable fact - just look at the previous post.. :rolleyes:
.

Do you even know what "from the field" means?
That means FG% not TS%.

For an opposing defender it doesn't matter how good you shoot FT's it just matters how good you can score from the field.

That is why Shaq was doubled more often then MJ.
He was far more unstoppable and efficient from the field.
Take away FT's and MJ isn't close to Shaq as a scorer.

[QUOTE=3ball]
Btw, MJ was more dominant that Shaq - this is easily the most irrefutable fact - just look at the previous post.. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

No he wasn't and your previous post doesn't prove shit.
MJ may have been a slightly better scorer Peak for Peak but offensively they are on the same level while defensively Shaq has a huge edge and is also a monster on the boards.

Peak Shaq's overall impact > Peak Jordan's
Not a big gap but a clear one imo.

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

Do you even know what "from the field" means?
That means FG% not TS%.

For an opposing defender it doesn't matter how good you shoot FT's it just matters how good you can score from the field.

[/quote]
[B]Even though it's the dumbest, most beta thing in the world to remove FT shooting just so you can have a chance in the argument, I'll do it anyway, because MJ still wins.. If you insist on being a dumbass, MJ still wins using your twisted logic:[/B]


[U]Points per 100 Possessions in Playoffs [COLOR="red"]MINUS FREE THROWS MADE[/COLOR]:
[/U]

[I]MICHAEL JORDAN[/I]: 43.3 pts - 10.6 ft's = 32.7 pts

[I]SHAQ AS LAKER[/I]: 36.3 pts - 7.7 ft's = 28.6 pts


That feeling you have right now - that's you being ethered... Enjoy.. Happens to the best of us

Of course, why would we remove FT shooting anyway?... gtfo, ridiculous... MJ is was the better scorer and was more dominant - higher ts, higher points-per-possession, higher win shares, and of course, higher ppg..
.

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]Do you even know what "from the field" means?
That means FG% not TS%.

For an opposing defender it doesn't matter how good you shoot FT's it just matters how good you can score from the field.

That is why Shaq was doubled more often then MJ.
He was far more unstoppable and efficient from the field.
Take away FT's and MJ isn't close to Shaq as a scorer.

[/quote]

TS% is a more accurate representation of scoring efficiency when compared to FG%. MJ was the more efficient and dangerous scorer, that is why he was double teamed more often than Shaq.

[quote]
No he wasn't and your previous post doesn't prove shit.
MJ may have been a slightly better scorer Peak for Peak but offensively they are on the same level while defensively Shaq has a huge edge and is also a monster on the boards.

Peak Shaq's overall impact > Peak Jordan's
Not a big gap but a clear one imo.[/QUOTE]

Peak Shaq is not better than Peak Jordan. Peak Shaq cannot give you elite offense and properly guard the pick and roll for the entire game. He is not a true two way player. Shaq couldn't step into a creater role for your offense like Michael Jordan could. Shaq's impact diminishes as the game comes to an end due to being a liability from free throw shooting. Jordan's impact increases. When the game is down to the last play, who are you inbounding the ball too, Jordan, or Shaq?

[QUOTE=3ball][B]Even though it's the dumbest, most beta thing in the world to remove FT shooting just so you can have a chance in the argument, I'll do it anyway, because MJ still wins.
[/QUOTE]

First of all MJ does not win, LOL.
Are you ****ing kidding me?

Second of all removing FT shooting does make sense in the context of our discussion.

[COLOR="DarkRed"]If you are an opposing defender who is trying to stop a guy without fouling it doesn't matter how good his FT shooting ability is it only matters how good his halfcourt offensive game is.[/COLOR]

[B]Peak VS Peak (scoring from the field)[/B]
--------
[B]Shaq =[/B] 11.7 FG's made on 21.3 FG Attempts
[B]MJ =[/B] 12.1 FG's made on 23.7 FG Attempts

[B]Jordan =[/B] .4 more FG's made on 2.4 extra attempts.

Enjoy dat ether boy.

:kobe:

[QUOTE=warriorfan]TS% is a more accurate representation of scoring efficiency when compared to FG%.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed but in the context of our discussion FG% was relevant and TS% was not.

[QUOTE]MJ was the more efficient and dangerous scorer. [/QUOTE]

But he wasn't more efficient even going by TS% and I don't think he was more dangerous.
Shaq was a more unstoppable scorer from the field which made him more consistent and more portable VS various defenses.

[QUOTE]that is why he was double teamed more often than Shaq.
[/QUOTE]
Except in reality he wasn't.


[QUOTE]Peak Shaq is not better than Peak Jordan.[/QUOTE]

Yes he is.

[QUOTE]Peak Shaq cannot give you elite offense and properly guard the pick and roll for the entire game.[/QUOTE]

Peak Shaq was a dominant interior defender and a DPOY level defensive anchor at the C position.
His defensive impact was far greater then Jordan's ever was.
His PnR defense was also fine at his Peak.

[QUOTE]He is not a true two way player.[/QUOTE]

Retard alert.
Shaq was an elite defensive anchor throughout most of his Prime.

[QUOTE]Shaq couldn't step into a creater role for your offense like Michael Jordan could. [/QUOTE]

Of course he could.
Look at the 2000 Finals where he scored nearly 40ppg and carried a team that had barely any creators outside of an injured and useless Kobe.
Look at many other series. He could create efficient offense better then anyone.

[QUOTE]Shaq's impact diminishes as the game comes to an end due to being a liability from free throw shooting.[/QUOTE]

No it doesn't because his efficiency from the field balances it out.
Shaq led the 00-02 Laker's in 4th quarter pts scored.
Shaq has the two highest 4th quarter PPG averages in a Finals series.

[QUOTE]When the game is down to the last play, who are you inbounding the ball too, Jordan, or Shaq?[/QUOTE]

For a last second play?
Jordan.

For an entire 4th quarter?
Could go either way.

[SIZE="2"]pick and roll defense[/SIZE]

[SIZE="4"]pick and roll defense[/SIZE]

[SIZE="7"]pick and roll defense[/SIZE]

[QUOTE=warriorfan]pick n roll hurrr[/QUOTE]

What about it?
Shaq was never great at defending deep PnR plays but during his youth and Peak years he was more then capable of defending them and in the playoffs he ramped up his effort level and always did a passable job of it.

Shaq was one of the most dominant interior defenders & rim-protectors of his generation.
Him being fairly average at one minor facet of defense (deep PnR screens) didn't prevent him from being an elite defensive anchor especially at his Peak where he anchored the #1 defense in the league despite Kobe missing a ton of games and him having no other notable defenders on his team.

Peak Wilt (like Shaq) was also fairly average at perimeter defense and yet his defensive impact was also far greater then Jordan's ever was.

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

But he wasn't more efficient even going by TS% and I don't think he was more dangerous.

[/quote]
What the **** are you talking about??... MJ had higher TS and ORtg in the playoffs.. Also, without FT's, MJ still scored a lot more:


[U]Points per 100 Possessions in Playoffs [COLOR="DarkRed"]MINUS FREE THROWS MADE[/COLOR]:
[/U]

[I]MICHAEL JORDAN[/I]: 43.3 pts - 10.6 ft's = 32.7 pts

[I]SHAQ AS LAKER[/I]: 36.3 pts - 7.7 ft's = 28.6 pts


[I]But again, why are we handicapping it for Shaq by excluding FT's?... Only because Shaq is clearly worse and doesn't have a chance comparing to MJ otherwise.[/I]

[QUOTE=3ball]
[I]But again, why are we handicapping it for Shaq by excluding FT's?... Only because Shaq is clearly worse and doesn't have a chance comparing to MJ otherwise.[/I][/QUOTE]

[B]Shaq's FG% >>>>>>> Jordan's[/B]

You are literally insane if you think he wasn't a better scorer from the field.
I am done discussing that particular topic with you.

Regarding their scoring Peak VS Peak.
Jordan was arguably better but the gap is small.

[B]Shaq :[/B] 30ppg on .562%TS
[B]MJ :[/B] 33.6ppg on .572%TS

Let us not act like their is some gigantic gap between those stats above.
Its pretty small and honestly Shaq faced much better defenses and much better h2h defenders.
Plus he was more consistent and more portable VS varied defenses.

I think they are about equal as offensive anchors or a small edge for Jordan.
But defensively it is not even close.
Peak Shaq was a DPOY level C.
Jordan couldn't dream of matching his impact on that end.
Then we have the 13-15 boards he grabbed.

Yeah in terms of overall impact Peak Shaq > Peak Jordan

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]If you are an opposing defender who is trying to stop a guy without fouling it doesn't matter how good his FT shooting ability is it only matters how good his halfcourt offensive game is.[/COLOR]

[/QUOTE]
MJ's scoring stats are GOAT - they're far better than Shaq's, and he has FAR more big games than Shaq... MJ simply scored way more than Shaq in the halfcourt, or ANY court - you've just lost your mind by thinking otherwise.

(i.e. Jordan has thirty-eight 40-point playoff games to Shaq's 10 or whatever it is... don't make me start busting out lists of most 30 point, 40 point and 50 point playoff games - Jordan DOMINATES that list... You'll look really dumb.

you already look like an idiot saying anyone is a better scorer than MJ - the stats couldn't be clearer on this - MJ was the far more dominant scorer, which is why he required more double-teams).

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]
he anchored the #1 defense in the league despite Kobe missing a ton of games and him having no other notable defenders on his team.
[/QUOTE]

2000 Lakers were stacked with great defenders. Veteran AC Green was picking up pick and roll responsibilities for Shaq that year. Next year, AC Green goes to Miami where they secure the #2 defense in the league, [i]meanwhile the Lakers defense dropped to [b]#21[/b] in Green's absence with no one to cover the pick and roll.[/i]

[QUOTE=3ball]MJ simply scored way more than Shaq in the halfcourt, or ANY court - you've just lost your mind by thinking otherwise.[/QUOTE]

Hmm.... and yet....

[B]00-02 Shaq =[/B] 11.7 FG's made on 21.3 FG Attempts
[B]91-93 Mike =[/B] 12.1 FG's made on 23.7 FG Attempts

Looks like they scored about the same amount in the halfcourt except that Shaq needed 2.4 less attempts per game...

So much for Jordan scoring "way more" in the halfcourt.

Shaq was a far more efficient, consistent and unstoppable scorer from the field.
Jordan is clearly his inferior in that respect and any sane basketball fan would agree.

Now Jordan is a much better FT shooter and overall as you said he was probably the better scorer of the two.
Happy now?

:facepalm

[QUOTE=warriorfan]2000 Lakers were stacked with great defenders.[/QUOTE]

No they weren't.
You have no idea what you're talking about.

[QUOTE]Veteran AC Green was picking up pick and roll responsibilities for Shaq that year.
[/QUOTE]

Green was 36 years old and only played 22-mpg.
He was not a great defender and Shaq played great PnR defense in 00.

[QUOTE]meanwhile the Lakers defense dropped [/QUOTE]

That was because of chemistry issues, infighting, lack of effort by a disgruntled Shaq and other problems the team was having.

If you really think their defense fell off that hard because a 20mpg, 36 old roleplayer left the team then you're an idiot.

[B]Not to mention that they picked up Horace Grant in 01 who was a far, far better defender then Green was.
[/B]
Fukk off with that agenda fueled bullshit.
:coleman:

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]


[B]Now Jordan is a much better FT shooter and overall as you said he was probably the better scorer of the two.
[/B]

[/QUOTE]
Indeed, it's quite OBVIOUS that MJ scored more in the halfcourt, or ANY court:

[U]Career PPG in regular season and playoffs:[/U]


[I]JORDAN[/I]: 30.1 and 33.4 (#1 all time, #1 all-time)

[I]SHAQ[/I]:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 23.7 and 24.3 (#22 all-time, #24 all time)


This is why MJ was doubled more - because he was a much better scorer... /thread

[QUOTE=3ball]Indeed, it's quite OBVIOUS that MJ scored more in the halfcourt.[/QUOTE]

Scored more? Probably.
Scored better? Debatable.

You use career stats but that isn't really fair since Shaq hung around longer and ruined his shit.
Jordan didn't stick around past his Prime (which is a good thing).

[B]95-03 Shaq :[/B] 10.9 FGM on 19.5 FGA
[B]Jordan :[/B] 12.1 FGM on 25.5 FGA

So what do we have here?
Jordan did indeed "score more" as you said but he also took many more attempts.

Jordan made 1.2 more FG's per game but also used 6 more full attempts.

So I think clearly Shaq was scoring more effectively from the field.
---
That doesn't make him the better overall scorer because obviously FT's matter a great deal but strictly from the field Shaq was considerably more efficient & consistent while making a comparable (if slightly lower) number of shots.

:cheers:

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]No they weren't.
You have no idea what you're talking about.



Green was 36 years old and only played 22-mpg.
He was not a great defender and Shaq played great PnR defense in 00.



That was because of chemistry issues, infighting, lack of effort by a disgruntled Shaq and other problems the team was having.

If you really think their defense fell off that hard because a 20mpg, 36 old roleplayer left the team then you're an idiot.

[B]Not to mention that they picked up Horace Grant in 01 who was a far, far better defender then Green was.
[/B]
Fukk off with that agenda fueled bullshit.
:coleman:[/QUOTE]

Horace Grant was not a good defender nor a better defender than AC Green. This gets reflected when Horace Grant replaced AC Green in the rotation and the the Laker's defense suffered greatly due to the loss of pick and roll coverage. Opposing teams knew how Shaq was vulnerable to pick and roll and exploited the advantage regularly.

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]Scored more? Probably.
Scored better? Debatable.

You use career stats but that isn't really fair since Shaq hung around longer and ruined his shit.
Jordan didn't stick around past his Prime (which is a good thing).

[B]95-03 Shaq :[/B] 10.9 FGM on 19.5 FGA
[B]Jordan :[/B] 12.1 FGM on 25.5 FGA

So what do we have here?
Jordan did indeed "score more" as you said but he also took many more attempts.

Jordan made 1.2 more FG's per game but also used 6 more full attempts.

So I think clearly Shaq was scoring more effectively from the field.
---
That doesn't make him the better overall scorer because obviously FT's matter a great deal but strictly from the field Shaq was considerably more efficient & consistent while making a comparable (if slightly lower) number of shots.

:cheers:[/QUOTE]

Ether!


And 2000-2002 Shaq was FAR more unstoppable than MJ ever was

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]Scored more? Probably.
Scored better? Debatable.

You use career stats but that isn't really fair since Shaq hung around longer and ruined his shit.
Jordan didn't stick around past his Prime (which is a good thing).

[B]95-03 Shaq :[/B] 10.9 FGM on 19.5 FGA
[B]Jordan :[/B] 12.1 FGM on 25.5 FGA

So what do we have here?
Jordan did indeed "score more" as you said but he also took many more attempts.

Jordan made 1.2 more FG's per game but also used 6 more full attempts.

So I think clearly Shaq was scoring more effectively from the field.
---
That doesn't make him the better overall scorer because obviously FT's matter a great deal but strictly from the field Shaq was considerably more efficient & consistent while making a comparable (if slightly lower) number of shots.

:cheers:[/QUOTE]

What years are you using for Jordan here? Is this playoffs or RS for both players?

[QUOTE=warriorfan]Horace Grant was not a good defender nor a better defender than AC Green.
[/QUOTE]

#1. Grant was a great defender.
He was a guy always known for his excellent defense.
Ask any decent poster on the board and they'll confirm it for you.

#2. He was a better defender then Green who was a year away from retirement and infact did retire in 2001 playing 16-mpg for Miami before calling it quits.

[QUOTE]This gets reflected when Horace Grant replaced AC Green in the rotation and the the Laker's defense suffered greatly due to the loss of pick and roll coverage.
[/QUOTE]

That is simply not true nor what happened.
Chemistry issues are what caused the Laker's to underperform in the reg-season that year.

Once they "figured things out" by the end of the year their defense returned to its normal level.
[COLOR="DarkRed"]In the playoffs they had by far the best defense in the league.[/COLOR]
So that alone immediately disproves your theory that they needed Green for their defense to be elite or that he played any significant role in their defense being elite in 2000.

Infact their playoff defense in 2001 was considerably better then their playoff defense in 2000.

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]#1. Grant was a great defender.
He was a guy always known for his excellent defense.
Ask any decent poster on the board and they'll confirm it for you.

#2. He was a better defender then Green who was a year away from retirement and infact did retire in 2001 playing 16-mpg for Miami before calling it quits.



That is simply not true nor what happened.
Chemistry issues are what caused the Laker's to underperform in the reg-season that year.

Once they "figured things out" by the end of the year their defense returned to its normal level.
[COLOR="DarkRed"]In the playoffs they had by far the best defense in the league.[/COLOR]
So that alone immediately disproves your theory that they needed Green for their defense to be elite or that he played any significant role in their defense being elite in 2000.

Infact their playoff defense in 2001 was considerably better then their playoff defense in 2000.[/QUOTE]

Their chemistry change was due to the fact that they had a hole in the pick and role coverage, something that Horace Grant never excelled at.

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/LfHlds.gif[/IMG]


[B]So I think clearly Shaq was scoring more effectively from the field.
[/B]

[/QUOTE]
:facepalm

[COLOR="Red"][B]Why do mods let dumbs stuff like this fly?... Unlike Shaq, Jordan took shots OUTSIDE OF 5 FEET - MJ was better at converting FG's everywhere on the floor.. But once again, MJ can win this argument anyway even using your dumb, erroneous, twisted logic: [/B][/COLOR]

[B]Prime MJ's paint and at-rim percentages beat Shaq's.. MJ shot 74% [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317950]at the rim in 1992[/url] - this is the same as Shaq's career 74% at the rim... And MJ's fg% in the entire 16 x 19 foot paint was 59%, which destroys Shaq, since he shoots 42% from 3-10 feet and 27% from 10-16 feet.. So MJ shoots the same percentage at the rim, and blows Shaq away from virtually every other distance.
[/B]
[B]I have a question for you - how does it feel to be a complete dumbass... But it's okay - you shouldn't be surprised that prime MJ was the superior shot-maker in the paint - for example, MJ and Dr. J are the only wing players in history with sufficient explosion off two feet to dunk on a massive, physically dominant center without needing any dribbles or steps (see gif above) - and he was 34 at the time of that dunk.[/B]


[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

but strictly from the field Shaq was considerably more efficient & consistent

[/QUOTE]
This was just debunked in previous response above... Again don't be surprised that prime MJ was a superior finisher in the paint - prime MJ overpowered and finished over bigs like no player in the history of the game - try to imagine Kobe, Westbrook, Lebron, Harden or Durant doing any of these moves below - THEY SIMPLY CAN'T - they don't have the [I][COLOR="Navy"]full combination of athleticism[/COLOR][/I] necessary (including big hands):

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MaYccWpdZ4[/url]
[url]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-27-2015/zU1xdh.gif[/url]
[url]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-01-2015/Kxoq9J.gif[/url]
[url]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-25-2015/sKMzUP.gif[/url]


RON ARTEST:

[INDENT][I]"MJ is the toughest to guard because [COLOR="blue"]he's as strong as Lebron[/COLOR], he shoots just as good as Reggie Miller from the midrange, and he's tough... He's a killer out there on the court."[/I]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5dXZxj6Zbc&t=0m59s[/url][/INDENT]


MAGIC JOHNSON:

[INDENT][I]"MJ's strength is like a big man's. He's the strongest guard, I'm talking about body-wise, to ever play."[/I]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=1m52s[/url][/INDENT]
.

Facts are facts Mr. 3ball.

Shaq was considerably more efficient & consistent from the field on only slightly lower volume.

Here is another way of looking at it.

[B]Shaq =[/B] 22-ppg on 19.5 FGA
[B]MJ =[/B] 25-ppg on 25.1 FGA

Which is better?
Shaq obviously...

Give him 5.8 extra FGA at (for him) a conservative 55% rate and he scores an extra 6.16-ppg.

So.
[B]Shaq =[/B] 28-ppg
[B]MJ =[/B] 25-ppg

Shaq wins. :pimp:

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

Shaq was considerably more efficient & consistent from the field on only slightly lower volume.

[/QUOTE]
Are you stupid - MJ shot FG's from all over the floor not just in the paint, and Shaq shot a WORSE percentage in the 16 x 19 foot paint than MJ anyway.

Shaq shot 42% from 3-10 feet for his career - MJ destroys this... Shaq shot 27% from 10-16 feet - MJ destroys this... And prime MJ shot [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317950]the same 74%[/url] at the rim as Shaq... So MJ is the better shotmaker inside the 16 x 19 foot paint.. But I know you're too dumb to understand what I just wrote.

So prime MJ shot the same percentage at the rim as Shaq, while shooting far better everywhere else on the floor.

MJ is the superior shot maker, by far, and the stats prove it.
[COLOR="White"]inb4 i have to repeat myself to this dumbass[/COLOR]

[QUOTE=3ball]Are you stupid[/QUOTE]

Are you?

[B]Prime Playoff FG%[/B]
-------------------
[B]Shaq =[/B] .560%
[B]Jordan =[/B] .487%

Just so you know FG% represents efficiency from the field.
There is no debating the[B] irrefutable fact[/B] that Shaq was much more dangerous and unstoppable scorer then MJ outside of the FT line.

If Jordan was more efficient from every area of the floor as you stupidly say then his FG% would be higher but it isn't and he wasn't.
Durrrrrrr.

Give Shaq the FT shooting ability of MJ and he'd be a far better overall scorer then Jordan ever was.

MJ's FG% cratered as his athleticism faded, while Shaq was still 56%+ FG all the way throughout his career

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

If Jordan was more efficient from every area of the floor as you stupidly say then his FG% would be higher but it isn't and he wasn't.

[/QUOTE]
No, you're just too dumb to understand that Shaq only took high percentage at-rim shots.. Otoh, MJ took the high efficiency at-rim shots too, but he ALSO took many lower efficiency shots outside of 5 feet, which lowered his overall FG%.

Again, in MJ's prime, he shot 74% at the rim just like Shaq, and destroyed Shaq everywhere else on the floor... But again, the higher proportion of lower percentage shots MJ took further from the basket made his FG% lower than Shaq's - this is statistical fact, but you're just too dumb to understand it..

Go back to school you dumb ****, so then you won't be a dumb **** anymore... It's good advice, you should take it.

[QUOTE=3ball]No, you're just too dumb to understand that Shaq only took high percentage at-rim shots.[/QUOTE]

[B]Translation :[/B] Shaq could consistently create high percentage shots for himself close to the basket and Jordan couldn't so Shaq was more effective and shot a higher percentage.

I mean... yeah.
Like... is Carmelo a better scorer then Kareem because his shot spread is far more diverse and he uses more moves?

Dummy.

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

I mean... yeah.
Like... [B][SIZE="3"]is Carmelo a better scorer then Kareem[/SIZE][/B] because his shot spread is far more diverse and he uses more moves?


[/QUOTE]
You just exposed yourself as a dumbass - you think Shaq is a better scorer than MJ???

You're far dumber than I ever imagined..

[QUOTE=3ball]You're far dumber than I ever imagined..[/QUOTE]

Where did I say Shaq was a better scorer then MJ in that post?
Dummy...

MJ was a slightly better scorer overall but that is because not only was he very efficient from the field "for a guard" but because he was also an elite FT shooter.

Shaq was still the better scorer from the field but from the line he was considerably inferior to MJ which is why overall MJ retains the edge.

None of this is hard to understand and MJ still comes out on top you are just so arrogant and hard headed that you cant accept easily understandable commonly accepted facts.

Take away FT's from the game and yes everyone would prefer Shaq over Jordan as their teams main scorer because he is a better scorer from the field.

I am done... you can keep rambling if you want but I won't further discuss this.

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

Where did I say Shaq was a better scorer then MJ in that post?

[/QUOTE]
You're analogy of Carmelo and Kareem implied it, but you're too dumb to even see that.

Go to bed kid.. You were destroyed.

MJ's a better scorer than Shaq, Kareem, Lebron, Kobe, and virtually every other player in the history of the game... That's why he was doubled more than any player ever, especially in the 80's when he was a 1-man team and had no 3-point shooters (unlike Shaq who always had all-nba guards and a bevy of 3-point shooters).

I've proven MJ was doubled the most with multiple videos and more on deck, while we've been arguing this for a week and not a SINGLE video from anyone about Shaq - just their 15-year old memory of every single possession (because that's how often MJ was doubled).
.

[B]I think Charles should also be mentioned more regarding just MJ and Shaq. The most doubled playes ive seen where MJ, Barkley, Hakeem and Shaq. Now the player ive seen create more ilegal defenses and had more defensive rotations and making others foul out was probably Chuck.:bowdown: [/B]

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[I]SHAQ'S POST MOVES[/I]: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVxZs7dwCO8[/url]
[I]MJ'S POST MOVES[/I]: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSftZvpHJg[/url]


[COLOR="Navy"][I]The Shaq video shows him being doubled 33 of 62 times he caught the ball on the post (53%) compared to 52 of 103 in the MJ video (50%).[/I][/COLOR]

^^^ This is for all those who think Shaq was doubled WAAAY more than MJ - you're wrong.. They were doubled about the same on the post - this means MJ was doubled more overall, since he was doubled all over the court.

MJ's danger from anywhere on the court resulted in teams often doubling him 10+ possessions in a row, as various videos in the OP showed.. This type of every-possession double teams for 10 consecutive possessions never happened for Shaq, not even in the 2000 Finals.

[QUOTE=3ball].
[I]SHAQ'S POST MOVES[/I]: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVxZs7dwCO8[/url]
[I]MJ'S POST MOVES[/I]: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSftZvpHJg[/url]


[COLOR="Navy"][I]The Shaq video shows him being doubled 33 of 62 times he caught the ball on the post (53%) compared to 52 of 103 in the MJ video (50%).[/I][/COLOR]

^^^ This is for all those who think Shaq was doubled WAAAY more than MJ - you're wrong.. They were doubled about the same on the post - this means MJ was doubled more overall, since he was doubled all over the court.

MJ's danger from anywhere on the court resulted in teams often doubling him 10+ possessions in a row, as various videos in the OP showed.. This type of every-possession double teams for 10 consecutive possessions never happened for Shaq, not even in the 2000 Finals.[/QUOTE]

You realize nobody gives a flying **** about this bullshit, but you right? Write it in your journal and shut the hell up.

[QUOTE=Smoke117]You realize nobody gives a flying **** about this bullshit, but you right? Write in in your journal and shut the hell up.[/QUOTE]
:applause:

[QUOTE=Smoke117]You realize nobody gives a flying **** about this bullshit, but you right? Write in in your journal and shut the hell up.[/QUOTE]
The dude deleted his post and reposted the same shit to bump up the thread as he always does. I'm pretty sure that he sent a PM to ShaqTwizzle as well. Talk about pathetic.

[QUOTE=Smoke117]You realize nobody gives a flying **** about this bullshit, but you right? Write it in your journal and shut the hell up.[/QUOTE]

Then you dont know shit about this game coz thats what separates a 6/6 to 2/6

Did mods at the "besides Wilt" qualifier in the thread title? I could've sworn it wasn't there before.